Captain Falcon: Official Character Discussion

[KishSquared]

Discussion for the Captain of Falcons. Anyone can suggest anything for any of these topics, and it'll be noted. No changes will be made without three votes.

Suggested Offensive Modifications:

Suggested Defensive Modifications:

Default Physics:
SH: .90
FH: 1.1
FF: 1.15
DGrav: 1.2
Grav: 1.1

Physics Changes:
SH 0.85 (Kupo)
FH 1.15 (Kupo)
FF: 1.2 (Kupo)
Grav 1.075 (Kupo)

Specific Move Fixes:
Up-B: Wiggle Fix (The Cape)
Up-B: Remove momentum based (Kupo)
Side-B: Less KB (The Cape, Kupo)
Side-B: Less landing lag (Osi)
B: Faster (The Cape, Kupo)
B: Reduce KB (The Cape)

Anything else:
If we can do it, reverse knee enabled (Kupo)

 

[shanus]

SH: 0.90
FH: 1.10
FF: 1.15
Dgrav: 1.20
NormGrav: 1.10

I feel this setting is perfect. Just perfect. Perfect ledgehop to nairs, perfect height jumps post downthrow and upthrow. He can still double uair in a full hop. And he combos into knees so well :D

ALR @40%, this might need to be toned down with jump momentum but thats something I'm not sure of yet.

His strength are his combos, his weakness is his approaches. Thats why his ALR @40% is nice, it makes his approach a little easier, but still difficult with his terribad priorty. Overall, I feel like he is playing at near his optimal settings.

Conclusion: Perfection!

 

[The Cape]

Physics are good.

Fix the wiggle in the recovery
Less knockback on Raptor boost (more useful)

If I had my way:
Faster regular Falcon punch with less knockback (combos), and leave the turn around punch untouched. Give the speed for power trade off both ways.

 

[kupo15]

Shanus' falcon is pretty good, although maybe a slightly higher SH and slightly more higher FH would be better. It would make his ledge hopping a little easier and I think he could use a bigger FH anyway.

Extras that we don't have codes for:
Remove momentum based up b
Less knockback on the raptor boost
Slightly faster regular falcon punch

And if we can do it, reverse knee enabled

I also don't like how the falcon kick slows down when it hits something

 

[Osi]

I would agree that shanus's weight set for him is just right.

Kupo's idea of a reverse knee is a cool one if we could assign the sweetspot hitbox to both the tip of the knee and another around his thigh area.

I'd like less lag after the mid air side B. I think it would make it a much more useful more above the stage, and harder to be punished after it connects.

 

[KishSquared]

Updated first post. I don't have much to add to the discussion since I rarely touch the Cap'n.

 

[kupo15]

SH 0.85
FH 1.15
FF 1.15
Dgrav 1.2
Grav 1.075

 

[CT Chia]

overall my biggest gripe is his recovery. it just doesnt feel right, its too... idk, loose? compared to how it was in melee. you also cant really recovery backwards, like upB away from the stage and effectively grab the ledge.

copy pasted from the other thread:

i just played a whole bunch of brawl+ last night with andyg (vids coming soon)

he played straight falcon, and i played pretty much sonic and ike. he absolutely loves it but feels falcon needs some tweaking. he says he drops like a lead weight lol. its good for combos and stuff on the stage, but eliminates like any off stage game with him. its like impossible to jump off the stage, double jump, knee, and be able to recover lol.



Quote:
Originally Posted by shanus View Post
you just can't go ape**** crazy off of it.

but this is what people want haha

falcons recovery in general is pretty weird/messed up compared to what it is in melee. i was also talking to scar earlier about it (who played brawl+ a while ago, hasnt for a while, but wants to try it out again) and is pretty unsure about his recovery. you cant really use his upB backwards the same way you were able to in melee.

hint: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=190270
^ that is what people want from smash lol. im not saying we should be making this melee (we def shouldnt), but there are still some great aspects of it we should be striving to help bring to brawl+

 

[kupo15]

I( think we all feel that we need to remove the momentum based up b from him.

Why does the raptor boost send heavier ppl higher at 0 than lighter ones? Or so it seems this way

 

[CT Chia]

i just realized that the strong knee does 20 damage... its a lot easier to hit now and is a fast aerial, i would say reduce it to like 15 or so. 20 just seems a bit extreme, and is more than most smash attacks lol

 

[kupo15]

no I think its fine chibo

 

[CT Chia]

i was ike at the side of a stage hit with a strong knee, and even though i forgot to DI it killed me at 55%. thats kind of ridiculous. its a very fast aerial that can be combo'd into and isnt too hard to land now. 20% and that much knockback? a lil too intense if u ask me

 

[kupo15]

i was ike at the side of a stage hit with a strong knee, and even though i forgot to DI it killed me at 55%. thats kind of ridiculous.

That is the important part. The shuttle loop can kill very low if you don't DI but if you do, its hardly a kill move.

 

[leafgreen386]

i was ike at the side of a stage hit with a strong knee, and even though i forgot to DI it killed me at 55%. thats kind of ridiculous. its a very fast aerial that can be combo'd into and isnt too hard to land now. 20% and that much knockback? a lil too intense if u ask me

If you "forget to DI" or DI incorrectly, I say you deserve to get shot off the stage at 55%. When you DI it, it isn't that bad. Seriously, falcon isn't OP. Why nerf him?

 

[kupo15]

after playing falcon for a bit now, I really think he is too heavy. He feels like a heavy toed character which he is not. I find its harder to stay with people who are launched far away because of how far moves send ppl. Melee falcon could cover the entire board very quickly and I don't feel this to be true because of how heavy he is. I propose people to try this. You can still keep the same SH height but you won't be sucked to the floor. I always felt he was more of a FF to get to the ground faster character anyway.

Falcon 091ACC70 (more float)

SH: .85
FH 1.15
FF: 1.2
Dg: 1.2
Grav 1.075

 

[leafgreen386]

After just trying kupo's falcon set with the momentum code, I think that it suits him better.

 

[shanus]

Played with it tonight with momentum, HATED it. I found myself being too floaty for solid techchases, having more trouble sweetspotting the knee as I was too high for it, it was just too floaty for falcon.

 

[kupo15]

interesting, because I don't like your falcon either for the same reasons...

 

[shanus]

I haven't gotten to try this out yet, but I think this might play very well and appeal to both of us:

0939AC80


Higher SH & Full Hop while still being fast to rise and fall. Should make for more versatile SHFFLs due to reaching apex quickly and allowing for mixed nairs and uairs well. Will report on how it feels.

 

[shanus]

So I have tested the setting above, 0939AC80 and i think its awesome. More window to do double uairs, double bairs can be done as well (just buffer either uair or bair), and the higher SH makes for better SHFFLs. Its pretty sick and feels analogous to yours Kupo, but not floaty at the same time.

 

[kupo15]

I'll give it a shot but shanus, I think you should try my falcon setting again without the character size mod. I'm positive that the non scaling SH and FH values made him feel more floaty than before

 

[shanus]

I'll give it a shot but shanus, I think you should try my falcon setting again without the character size mod. I'm positive that the non scaling SH and FH values made him feel more floaty than before

FYI, the current char gravity and full hop mods do not work right for some characters. You need to revert to Beta2 or Beta3 values as Almas or Spunit broke something. SH works then, but FH still doesn't. Full Hop might be broken by one of spunits codes. Thats why falcon felt heavier, as his full hop wasn't scaling at all....

 

[shanus]

I sacred combo'd and recovered with falcon 1.1 normgrav. Too heavy my ***!

 

[kupo15]

I sacred combo'd and recovered with falcon 1.1 normgrav. Too heavy my ***!

oh wow great proof shanus

/sarcasm

Fix the jumps, make sure all the character gravity ect stuff is fixed...then we will talk

 

[KishSquared]

There's not a lot of agreement on much of anything for Falcon yet. Looking at the first post, there's not a single thing that has three votes. So the only change in the new codeset should be the default physics...

 

[shanus]

This clip speaks all: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqOMXMZEa30

 

[kupo15]

Pretty cool, but not a true sacred combo. He was out of hitstun

 

[shanus]

Almas made a working launch / grav code, (still has samus bug, but thats fine for now).

Falcon's FH height should be about 1.05, any more and it seems to be waaayyyy too high haha.


0936AC80 seems to be solid.

And the hitstun ended right as the punch started to connect, its about as true as a sacred can get atm.

 

[kupo15]

Is that your code or was there some adjustments to it

 

[shanus]

I can give you it later. I'm in class right now lol

I was fixing the FH heights cuz some were very off (fox, falcon, and snake) and wanted to get them right.

 

[kupo15]

I think falcon's SH could be lower

 

[leafgreen386]

I think falcon's SH could be lower

I've been saying this the whole time. His nair can't hit a grounded character as he's rising... it could in melee.

Also, I think all the character discussion threads can just be trimmed down to <character name> now, since they're now in a subforum of the plussery and we've branched off of the main smash workshop forum.

 

[shanus]

I moved it back down to .9 in 3.3. Is that not enough yet? It seemed like it was short enough :O

 

[leafgreen386]

His sh still seemed a little high when I was playing. =/

 

[shanus]

I'll test it on lolimar at some point

 

[MuBa]

Lower his SH to .85 and we're good to go.

 

[goodoldganon]

Here is a question:

Isn't being short supposed to be an advantage? I know I advocated to lower Snakes Full Hop so he could hit more but this is different (because I said so and I'm always right.) Snakes full hop N-air was missing almost half the cast.

What benefit does lowering Falcon's SH do besides allow him to hit the shorter guys? What characters exactly is he jumping over with the n-air? (No one in my crew plays shorties)

Being short is an advantage. Every attack doesn't need to be able to hit shorties.

 

[leafgreen386]

It does when you have falcon level momentum and it's one of your main approach moves.

 

[Ulevo]

Leaf presents a point, however there are alternatives, such as fast falling the Nair, or short hop Dair or Bair. Even Uair can hit properly if you're good with your timing.

 

[leafgreen386]

Of course you can ff it, but you can't hit with it on the way up, which I find to be much more useful.