Cancel aerial landinglag if aerial is almost finished (but not completely) with B moves

[Luigi player]

Not sure if this is known, but I just played around with Ganondorf to test his sideB superarmor and then wanted to see if fullhop fair works without landinglag. It's just not enough though. If you try to go offstage with it and doublejump immediately after it ends you'll see the "waves" of his dj just below the stageground.

(Onstage) I tried doublejumping, shielding - nothing... somehow I tried B too - and that worked! He had no landinglag and could immediately start using his warlock punch. This also works for his other special moves! Nothing else seems to work out of this (no shielding or A attacks).

This also isn't just with his fair. I tried doing short hop upair and that works as well (I timed it so that he'd have the hard landing).

For DK this works as well. Some weeks ago I tested using short hop fair with him from a BF platform. He always got the long landinglag from fair, even though it's just very few frames short (by going offstage with it and doublejumping you see the wave just about at the height of the stageground again). DK can cancel that too, with B moves. (something weird happens if you use downB though, he'll cancel the downB mid animation (before the hitbox comes out ))

So this seems to be universal. Didn't test much more than that for now, so have fun playing around with it.


Generally it seems that you can cancel any hard landings (mostly for heavier characters, if they fall far enough down to the ground) into B moves, so this can be helpful if you don't want the few frames lag.
Edit: This works with DKs short hop nair, but not all moves seem to work...

Here's a video showcasing it: http://youtu.be/E6b4OrdLhAg


Easy to use list:

Ganondorf:
- fulljump immediate fair

DK:
- shorthop immediate fair from low BF platforms onto the main platform

Bowser:
- shorthop immediate airdodge

Roy:
- fulljump immediate fair onto the SV platform

Little Mac:
- fulljump immediate fair then immediately nair

 

[SaltyKracka]

This is an interesting piece of tech. Thank you for sharing it.

 

[BakaFlocka]

This reminds me of playing Toon Link using his boomerang upon landing for spacing.

I never really thought of using it for others lol. This is pretty good tech for heavier, slower characters though. With DK, you can use his up-b to take advantage of his super armor/invincible frames against an opponent trying to pressure with dash attacks

 

[SonicTHP]

So is this the same reason why Greninja can follow up a Dair that hits the ground with his sideB?

 

[Luigi player]

So is this the same reason why Greninja can follow up a Dair that hits the ground with his sideB?

It could be related, but it doesn't seem like it imo, since only sideB works and his dair wouldn't end right after, so it's seems like something unique.

 

[Shaya]

Hmm, if Ganondorf(etc) are able to use special attacks in the air/before touching the ground but not able to avoid the ground by jumping, that's bizarre.
That would make me think that in ganondorf's forward air case, that the auto cancel is once again after the move ends itself? Still confuses me that you cannot jump though.

And obviously these moves are coming out as grounded instances (warlock foot), which implies they're starting on the ground, or that you landing on the ground within its first few frames count as it being grounded.

I do know something like this happens with Marth's dancing blade.
It's 45 frames on the ground and 33 frames used in the air. If you land during those 33 frames, I'm pretty sure the game decides to tack you on lag in an inconsistent fashion (being able to shield at 40 frames, or 42 frames/etc [implicating its about when you land]).

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Why aren't people testing this more thoroughly? This actually seems like VERY useful tech in the competitive scene for some characters, allowing for interesting setups and different spacing of attacks or even tricky block strings.

 

[Doval]

Why aren't people testing this more thoroughly? This actually seems like VERY useful tech in the competitive scene for some characters, allowing for interesting setups and different spacing of attacks or even tricky block strings.

I played around with it yesterday and it only seems to work when the aerial is just about done. Since the move has to be very close to finishing it's almost pointless if the move duration is shorter than the jump duration since you could just do the move earlier. You also need to weigh the time spent airborne waiting for the move to finish against the time it'd take to fastfall and go through landing lag, plus the possibility of doing moves other than specials. For a big payoff the move needs to finish shortly after its active frames and have big landing lag.

I don't want to call this useless. It's a very interesting discovery and it's important to know about. But I suspect the scope of its usefulness will be limited to a very small handful of cases.

 

[Tagxy]

Why aren't people testing this more thoroughly? This actually seems like VERY useful tech in the competitive scene for some characters, allowing for interesting setups and different spacing of attacks or even tricky block strings.

Yeah this actually seems really good for ganon. Imagine if you could do this well with stomp? Stomp to side b or stomp to up b, lol.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Holy **** this is MAD GOOD for Ganon. Fair spacing can now be legitimately done, and I can cover my boots with either Down-B 2 or Flame Choke backwards, so muchhhhh! Oh my god this is hype.

For the record I'm pretty sure I know why this works. Ganon can act out of Fair in the air at around the time he lands from a fullhop, so I imagine the game carries that over into his landing state VERY briefly, letting you do this.

 

[Tagxy]

I played around with it yesterday and it only seems to work when the aerial is just about done. Since the move has to be very close to finishing it's almost pointless if the move duration is shorter than the jump duration since you could just do the move earlier. You also need to weigh the time spent airborne waiting for the move to finish against the time it'd take to fastfall and go through landing lag, plus the possibility of doing moves other than specials. For a big payoff the move needs to finish shortly after its active frames and have big landing lag.

I don't want to call this useless. It's a very interesting discovery and it's important to know about. But I suspect the scope of its usefulness will be limited to a very small handful of cases.

I would say its good if starting the move later allows you to hit closer to the ground.

 

[Luigi player]

Yeah this actually seems really good for ganon. Imagine if you could do this well with stomp? Stomp to side b or stomp to up b, lol.

Sadly stomp has way more endinglag in the air. Try short hop dair and going offstage with it and see how long you have to wait for it to be able to doublejump again. You're way below the stageground-height. :/

I guess it's best use is just to find characters with a lot of landinglag aerials who can use this in a shorthop or fulljump. I tried testing a few and didn't find anyone else. Many aerials actually take much longer than I would've thought... (making it not work with shorthop; and I'm not sure if there are other aerials who are too long for a full hop). And maybe if you're sure the aeriallag would end just after you hit the ground you can try pressing B if you have some landinglag otherwise - can't hurt trying it if you can't do anything else.

The two I wrote in the OP about could be the only aerials where it's really easy and applicable...

 

[Doval]

I would say its good if starting the move later allows you to hit closer to the ground.

That would only be meaningful if the difference in height makes or breaks whether you hit or not. Based on how strict the timing is, doing the move even just two or three frames earlier than the B-cancel window would suffice to get around the landing lag. And it's better to err on the side of doing it early than late since if you do it too late you'll be stuck with the lag.

 

[Tagxy]

It might be hard to master but it doesnt seem tooooo hard, in Brawl and melee I figured out how to do autocancel dairs from full hop which turned out to be super useful. @LP like I mentioned recently it might be good for getting hits closer to the ground. However if the move has autocancel frames and hits close to the ground anyways then I could see it being not too useful since autocancel is completely superior. Just have to experiment and see what exists.

 

[Shaya]

So help me understand this properly then;
the auto cancels for some of these aerials are after the IASA? In other words, you do that full hop fair and land with forward air landing lag, but can full hop fair jump or full hop fair special (in the air)?

 

[Doval]

So help me understand this properly then;
the auto cancels for some of these aerials are after the IASA? In other words, you do that full hop fair and land with forward air landing lag, but can full hop fair jump or full hop fair special (in the air)?

The weird thing is, it's not autocanceling. You still get stuck with landing lag. The only thing you can do is buffer a B move (and it has to be buffered; it won't work during landing lag.)

 

[Terotrous]

Intriguing. It definitely works for Ganondorf (you can do a B move the instant he lands from Fair, but if you do no move he has landing lag), but most of the other characters I've tried don't seem to be able to get much of anything out of it.

I'm pretty sure Shaya is right on the money here. The cancel only works when you land during the IASA frames of your aerial. For some reason, you retain the ability to cancel to a B move on the frame where you hit the ground, allowing you to cancel to a grounded B move. It's odd that A moves are not possible, considering you would be able to cancel into an A move too, if you were still in the air.

In order for a character to get value out of this, they need an attack which has its IASA frame earlier than its autocancel frame (if you autocancel, you can do whatever you want upon landing anyway). Ganon Fair is one such move. However, I'm not sure if there are many. I tried a few faster characters and they don't seem to have any such attacks. Sadly, Charizard doesn't seem to have any of these either. It might mostly be a Ganon thing, but people should definitely test all of their character's moves.

 

[Tagxy]

My guess is its some glitch to do with landing detection. Maybe something similar to ISJR? Was that a landing detection thing?

 

[Shaya]

I think what we have is:

1. IASAs on a lot of things (not just air dodges) that come before auto cancel frames. (Air dodge IASA: 30, AC: 40).
2. Specials which act out as if they were on the ground if they land on the ground during start up.

Seeing as landing on the ground normally without lag is 4 frames than you're negating that with the special. If other moves have IASAs earlier than AC than it seems to be the same idea (much like the whole "air dodge cancel").

Why I think the second point is also real is because of the distinction Marth has between his aerial dancing blade and his grounded one.
If you do a full dancing blade in the air, you'll only have 33 frames of lag, while on the ground it's 45.
Marth's short hop is timed as such that you can fair and jump (etc) or start another aerial but our fastest (5 frames uair) only gets 4 frames of its start up before landing.
If you start a dancing blade in the air, the strike comes out while you're on the ground, and you're dealt with 45 frames of lag total as if you were doing it on the ground.

 

[Roukiske]

Well hot dang, I was skeptical at first but this actually works. You might have to be landing on very specific frames for this to work since I couldn't manually replicate it by adjusting my aerial timing other than a full hop instant fair with Ganon.

So far I only got fair to work. I also tried shorthop and fullhop (no fast fall) instant aerials from:

and I could not find any that would work.

Manually timing this if its possible would be pretty hard IMO, as well as having anything useful to come out of this. Unfortunately this wont work on a grounded opponent for Ganon, but still pretty cool for an aerial mix up. This would be pretty cool if it it worked with something like a meteor and a quick special.

 

[Big O]

Yeah what's basically happening here is there are a few characters with aerials that have IASA frames before they can AC. DK's Fair and Ganon's Fair both suffer from a silly oversight from Brawl that makes their Fair unable to AC for the entire duration of the the move's animation (which is longer than they take to get IASA). I'm surprised they didn't fix them.

The reason that only specials work to prevent the landing lag for those moves is that they can be triggered the exact frame you land (while aerials and double jumps cannot) and the IASA is being triggered on the landing frame.

 

[Thinkaman]

Big O explained it before I could. The nerve of that guy.

 

[Masonomace]

I can help confirm this with Shulk.

You can buffer a FH > D-air, & input Up-B, Side-B, or Down-B & they'll work, interrupting the usual landing lag Shulk receives from doing D-air. However you can't do MArts or HMArts with this.

Even though I say MArts can't be done, Decisive Monado Arts can work if you select & stop at a stance for a split moment, then input FH > D-air, you'll MArt Cancel like in the video below:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjubeRA0pdI&feature=youtu.be

The fitting part was that I was messing around with this just yesterday on my friend's 3DS.

 

[san.]

Works with Ike's nair, but it's impractical since it takes more than a full hop. It does shave a few frames off, though, I suppose. It'll probably work for most aerials that have no known autocancel frames at the end of the attack.

 

[Terotrous]

It'll probably work for most aerials that have no known autocancel frames at the end of the attack.

Only if they have an IASA frame. I tested some of Charizard's moves (notably Bair, which has like 30 frame recovery), and sadly it does not seem to have any useful IASA frame. He still has to take a rest for half a second if he uses this move. (Nair and Fair's autocancel frames occur before their IASA frame so they are not useful, either).

 

[Doval]

The reason that only specials work to prevent the landing lag for those moves is that they can be triggered the exact frame you land (while aerials and double jumps cannot) and the IASA is being triggered on the landing frame.

To be clear, are you saying you can use specials on the same frame you land even when landing idle?

 

[Big O]

To be clear, are you saying you can use specials on the same frame you land even when landing idle?

Yeah that works.

 

[Thinkaman]

Shulk seems to have IASA before AC on every aerial except nair. Any others?

Edit:
It seems reasonable to expect this is on only heavy characters with "heavy" moves. This is because IASA so abnormally early on faster moves would feel jarring and be immediately noticeable.

We have a no-go on Charizard, and the rest of Ganon/DK's moves. Who else should we look at? Bowser Jr, DDD? Do you have comprehensive results on Ike, san?

Edit2:
I just confirmed that Charizard has nothing.

Edit3:
DDD has nothing.

Edit4:
Bowser Jr. has nothing.

 

[Terotrous]

Just tested DK. He has none.

Samus has none.

Pikachu has none.

Olimar has none.

Duckhunt has none.

Falco has none.

I'm tired, someone else test some.

 

[DanGR]

Tons of aerials have massive IASA frames. It's not limited to just a few fatties. I was planning on making a video soon, showing where the frames are during each animation on all the characters. If you want a teaser, go look at sheik's f-air ending animation. In her regular falling animation, her foot is well below her body. At the end of her f-air she tucks her foot up into her chest for a long time after the hitbox ends, indicating the loooong IASA frame period. You can test for yourself that she still gets her regular f-air landing lag during this time period because sheik can't pass through platforms while her foot is tucked into her chest. The f-air is on-going the entire time.

 

[Terotrous]

Found something interesting. Lucario can cancel ALL landing lag into UpB. You can use a move one frame away from the ground and do it.

Oddly, only UpB works. Can be done with all 5 of his aerials.

 

[Tagxy]

Just tested DK. He has none.

Samus has none.

The video he made shows one for DK

 

[Terotrous]

The video he made shows one for DK

I think that's an autocancel frame. I was testing it by trying both B moves and jab. If jab works, it's an autocancel. It's only a true example if a B move works and jab doesn't.

If not, the window for that one is super small, cause I tried it a few times.

 

[Tagxy]

If it was an autocancel frame wouldnt he land without any lag?

 

[Terotrous]

If it was an autocancel frame wouldnt he land without any lag?

Yeah, he does from full hop, you can just press nothing and it cancels. I'm pretty sure when he finally "got it to work" he just did it early enough that he landed with no lag.

Just tried it like 20 more times and I wasn't able to make it happen without the autocancel coming out.


Still, enough about DK, how about that Lucario thing? This seems quite useful for him. Fair / uair -> UpB is likely a true combo at some percents.

Incidentally, it works with his custom UpBs too, but both of them are likely useless. UpB 2 (the one that doesn't attack) is pretty hilarious though.

 

[Thinkaman]

Tons of aerials have massive IASA frames. It's not limited to just a few fatties. I was planning on making a video soon, showing where the frames are during each animation on all the characters. If you want a teaser, go look at sheik's f-air ending animation. In her regular falling animation, her foot is well below her body. At the end of her f-air she tucks her foot up into her chest for a long time after the hitbox ends, indicating the loooong IASA frame period. You can test for yourself that she still gets her regular f-air landing lag during this time period because sheik can't pass through platforms while her foot is tucked into her chest. The f-air is on-going the entire time.

This is normal behavior. You cannot drop through platforms after IASA nor AC times; you have to wait for the entire animation to end.

Sheik fair, like most moves, auto cancels before IASA frames. In fact, it ACs so quickly, you basically only get landing lag if you land with hitbox out.

Edit:
Let me recap how animations and these frame windows work.

Aerial animations tend to have 3 important terminal timings, almost always in this order:

1. AC (no landing lag)
2. IASA (can double jump, aerial, air-dodge, or special)
3. Animation End (Full idle state control--can do things like drop through platforms

IASA timing does not change, relatively speaking, all that much with attack speed. A slow attack's IASA window typically isn't that much later (from the frame the hitbox ended) than a fast attack's. This relative consistency keeps aerial combat dynamic and interesting, allowing all characters meaningful air interactions with each other.

On the other hand, AC timing varies wildly across moves. Many fast moves AC almost instantly after the hitbox is over. Slow moves with tons of "momentum" take forever to AC.

The slowest, "heaviest" of moves go so far as to have AC timing that is so slow, it's after the IASA window. Because remember, the IASA windows don't vary that much in comparison.

That is what we are talking about here: characters with slow aerials with a window such that they can do aerial actions like double jump, but still suffer landing lag if they touch ground--an inversion of normal aerial behavior.


The silly nuance is the edge case where the early IASA window is frame-perfect with landing. This means the character could normally aerial, air dodge, or double jump on this frame--but they can't, because those actions are forbidden while touching ground. But specials aren't! You can do special inputs in both air and ground, and the game will process them indiscriminately.

So in early IASA, the only thing you can do while landing is a special. And if the only IASA frame you have is landing, that means it's special or bust.


I hope that clarifies things?

Edit 2:
Brawl Examples!

Ganon Nair:
Hitbox Out - 20 (2nd hit)
AC - 41 (+21)
IASA - 45 (+25)
End - 60

Ganon Fair:
Hitbox Out - 14
AC - 55 (+41)
IASA - 45 (+31)
End - 60

Ganon Bair:
Hitbox Out - 10
AC - 22 (+12)
IASA - 36 (+26)
End - 46

Ganon Uair:
Hitbox Out - 6
AC - 25 (+8)
IASA - 34 (+28)
End - 44

Ganon Dair:
Hitbox Out - 16
AC - 32 (+11)
IASA - 45 (+29)
End - 55

Again, note how AC timings vary wildly, but IASA timings are somewhat consistent relative to the last hitbox creation.

(Comparing the timings to the termination of the hitboxes might intuitively make more sense on a theorycrafting basis, but I promise you the more relevant expression of how it feels in-game is comparison to hitbox creation--the moment the result of the input is actualized and perceived.)

 

[Jackson]

So this only works for heavy fighters, not Sheik, Meta Knight, or Fox? (just wondering because I take interest in them)

 

[DanGR]

This is normal behavior. You cannot drop through platforms after IASA nor AC times; you have to wait for the entire animation to end.

Sheik fair, like most moves, auto cancels before IASA frames. In fact, it ACs so quickly, you basically only get landing lag if you land with hitbox out.

Edit:
Let me recap how animations and these frame windows work.

Aerial animations tend to have 3 important terminal timings, almost always in this order:

1. AC (no landing lag)
2. IASA (can double jump, aerial, air-dodge, or special)
3. Animation End (Full idle state control--can do things like drop through platforms

IASA timing does not change, relatively speaking, all that much with attack speed. A slow attack's IASA window typically isn't that much later (from the frame the hitbox ended) than a fast attack's. This relative consistency keeps aerial combat dynamic and interesting, allowing all characters meaningful air interactions with each other.

On the other hand, AC timing varies wildly across moves. Many fast moves AC almost instantly after the hitbox is over. Slow moves with tons of "momentum" take forever to AC.

The slowest, "heaviest" of moves go so far as to have AC timing that is so slow, it's after the IASA window. Because remember, the IASA windows don't vary that much in comparison.

That is what we are talking about here: characters with slow aerials with a window such that they can do aerial actions like double jump, but still suffer landing lag if they touch ground--an inversion of normal aerial behavior.


The silly nuance is the edge case where the early IASA window is frame-perfect with landing. This means the character could normally aerial, air dodge, or double jump on this frame--but they can't, because those actions are forbidden while touching ground. But specials aren't! You can do special inputs in both air and ground, and the game will process them indiscriminately.

So in early IASA, the only thing you can do while landing is a special. And if the only IASA frame you have is landing, that means it's special or bust.


I hope that clarifies things?

Edit 2:
Brawl Examples!

Ganon Nair:
Hitbox Out - 20 (2nd hit)
AC - 41 (+21)
IASA - 45 (+25)
End - 60

Ganon Fair:
Hitbox Out - 14
AC - 55 (+41)
IASA - 45 (+31)
End - 60

Ganon Bair:
Hitbox Out - 10
AC - 22 (+12)
IASA - 36 (+26)
End - 46

Ganon Uair:
Hitbox Out - 6
AC - 25 (+8)
IASA - 34 (+28)
End - 44

Ganon Dair:
Hitbox Out - 16
AC - 32 (+11)
IASA - 45 (+29)
End - 55

Again, note how AC timings vary wildly, but IASA timings are somewhat consistent relative to the last hitbox creation.

(Comparing the timings to the termination of the hitboxes might intuitively make more sense on a theorycrafting basis, but I promise you the more relevant expression of how it feels in-game is comparison to hitbox creation--the moment the result of the input is actualized and perceived.)

Thank you for the explanation. I admit I'm a little rusty on the specifics, so bear with me.

I suppose a mock-up of what Sheik's f-air frame data might look like would be the following, based on visuals.

(These are just estimates)
Sheik Fair:
Hitbox Out - 5
AC - 9
IASA - 30
End - 120 (when her foot finally extends back out to a neutral position)

Edit: also, it seems that landing during some characters' aerials' IASA frames will result in landing lag unless you interrupt it with another aerial's initial AC frames. This is why I assume sheik's f-air has landing lag during her IASA frames, but I need to do more testing. :| Ex. Shulk's b-air IASA frames interrupted with the initial AC frames of his n-air. Otherwise there's landing lag.

Or am I wrong at all here?

 

[Thinkaman]

You're perceptive; all of Shulk's aerials except nair are the special case in question, with AC after IASA.

In Brawl, there were only two aerials in the entire game like this. (And the way they were coded looked like a bug.)

Edit:
So I tested DK and Ike and found no cases of this except Ike nair. Most their slow aerials, including DK fair, seem to AC the same frame as IASA.

AFAIK only Ganon fair, Ike nair, and Shulk aerials have AC after IASA.

Edit2:
To be clear, DK fair no longer behaves this way in smash 4. Also, Ganon 's fair AC is only like 4-5 frames after his IASA now, instead of 10. The likely coding error from Brawl does not appear to be a factor here.

Edit3:

I suppose a mock-up of what Sheik's f-air frame data might look like would be the following, based on visuals.
-snip-

Sheik Fair in Brawl:
Hitbox Out - 5
AC - 12 (+7)
IASA - 35 (+30) (programmed, but pointless)
End - 35

Clearly they massively extended the animation, while the other values remain similar.

Edit: also, it seems that landing during some characters' aerials' IASA frames will result in landing lag unless you interrupt it with another aerial's initial AC frames. This is why I assume sheik's f-air has landing lag during her IASA frames, but I need to do more testing.

This isn't the case. After the AC, you don't have any landing lag except for normal landing lag. For Sheik, this was 3 frames in Brawl; heavy characters had 4, and Bowser/DDD had 5.

What about these special cases? Can you exploit the IASA to start an aerial, and exploit their auto-cancel frames?

Unfortunately, no. To understand why, we have to understand how AC and landing lag works.
At some point in the move's programming schedule, it says "Ok, now you get landing lag if you land" and flips a bit to TRUE saying so. We call landing before this happens "early AC" which is kind of a poor label but whatever.

Then, at some point after the hitboxes are done, it turns that bit to FALSE. We call this "auto-cancel" due to misunderstanding the game coming from janky 64 and Melee mechanics. Nothing is being "cancelled", the eligible window for move-specific landing lag has merely ended and returned to normal landing lag.


So what does this mean for Ganon fair, Ike nair, and Shulk aerials?

These moves let you act before the landing lag bit is reset. If you do another move immediately, landing lag is still set to TRUE. This means you will still get landing lag (for the new move you are doing), even if the move wouldn't normally have set the bit to TRUE yet. In other words, you cannot "early AC."

The bit is reset on double jump, ledge-grab, or landing. It doesn't otherwise stick around like Brawl's "RCO lag." I haven't found any way to "store" it so it screws you over later.


Now, can Ganon, Ike, and Shulk exploit this by starting an aerial with less landing lag? Well...

• We already talked about how narrow this state is for Ganon. He doesn't have time to aerial out of a FH fair; it has to be a higher jump of some sort, and even then the window between IASA and AC is tiny. What's more, Fair landing lag is 25 frames, and everything else he has is still 22! (Well, dair is 30 iirc) So yes, Ganon can save 12% of his landing lag on fair in a narrow, obscure situation.
• Ike nair is already his lowest landing lag option.
• Shulk, meanwhile, has a lot to gain. Nair is only 12 frames of landing lag, while his other aerials (which all have IASA before AC) are 17-25. If Shulk finds himself landing in this space (and doesn't want to or can't double jump or special), he should always do a nair.

Unlike Ganon and Ike, landing with an aerial in this window is a somewhat common situation for Shulk, specifically:

• FH-apex fair
• FH bair
• Monado Jump SH fair
• Monado Jump FH uair

 

[Tagxy]

This thread turned out to be pretty educational. Sort of random, but there was some way to pass through platform before their animation ended right? Might be a dumb question but I dont have Brawl to check either.

Also if this doesnt apply to DK whats happening in that video? He even has that weird down b thing too.