Can someone tell me just WHAT is wrong with stale moves?

[Rashid]

I didn't feel like posting this in the Smash workshop or whatever because it probably doesn't belong there.. Anyway...

What's wrong with stale moves? Isn't it kinda supposed to be that way? (I don't recall the last time I played Melee, but I'm sure it had this too)

I keep seeing mentions of halving or even removing stale moves (or the damage/knocback negation, actually) in Brawl+ codesets. Why?

Spoiler

Please answer in a polite way. -.-

 

[Ultimate650]

wats stale moves?

 

[_Phloat_]

I dunno. The idea of them was to make players have to change strategies to kill opponents, but what they end up doing is making games take a lot longer.

I guess removing them makes the game faster, and killing start at lower %'s.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Back in Melee, you could actually spam the same attack over and over, and see little difference in knockback. The damage that the attack does does drop a bit though.

For Brawl however, if you keep using the same attack over and over again, it'll become less effective as a killing move. That can be a bad thing when trying to make KOs since someone can actually steal the KOs you've worked so hard to make.

 

[DKKountry]

wats stale moves?

The running man, the moonwalk, the sprinkler, and churning the butter are all excellent examples of stale moves. Basically, any dance move that your mother recognizes or your father might try to perform is a stale move.

Why they're talking about dancing here at Smashboards is beyond me.

 

[Rashid]

The running man, the moonwalk, the sprinkler, and churning the butter are all excellent examples of stale moves. Basically, any dance move that your mother recognizes or your father might try to perform is a stale move.

Why they're talking about dancing here at Smashboards is beyond me.

Suuuuuuuuuuuuuuure.


I think stale moves are when (as you could guess from the post ABOVE that) your moves get decreased damage and knockback from using them too much. You can unstale them by using different/more moves. I don't know all the physics behind it; ask someone else.

 

[ph00tbag]

I've never understood what the Brawlplussery has against stale moves. Frankly, I'm of the opinion that stale moves was one of the things done right in Brawl. Whether it was lazy on the part of the programmers is really a moot point, because it adds depth to the game, and removing it removes that depth.

Basically, I think removing it was part of the "Let's make it more like Melee!" affliction.

 

[Negi-Kun]

It's part of what makes Smash different from any other fighter.

For example, if you do a kick in say Street Fighter or something, you hit them and it does the same amount of damage whether you hit them on the tip of the opponent's toes or their knee.

While in Smash, in you use Mario's Fsmash when an opponent is as close as you can get, it will have less damage and they'll end up in front of you again, and the opponent can punish you. But if you Sweetspot the Fsmash right at the firey part of his hands, it will do more damage and will knock the opponent further away, not being able to punish you.

 

[The Mad Mage]

The running man, the moonwalk, the sprinkler, and churning the butter are all excellent examples of stale moves. Basically, any dance move that your mother recognizes or your father might try to perform is a stale move.

Why they're talking about dancing here at Smashboards is beyond me.

I don't know why the thread continued after this post.

 

[Rashid]

It's part of what makes Smash different from any other fighter.

For example, if you do a kick in say Street Fighter or something, you hit them and it does the same amount of damage whether you hit them on the tip of the opponent's toes or their knee.

While in Smash, in you use Mario's Fsmash when an opponent is as close as you can get, it will have less damage and they'll end up in front of you again, and the opponent can punish you. But if you Sweetspot the Fsmash right at the firey part of his hands, it will do more damage and will knock the opponent further away, not being able to punish you.

Huh?

Wait... what? I thought stale moves were... something else? >______>

Is there something I'm SERIOUSLY missing here?

 

[_Keno_]

I think stale moves are when (as you could guess from the post ABOVE that) your moves get decreased damage and knockback from using them too much. You can unstale them by using different/more moves. I don't know all the physics behind it; ask someone else.

This pretty much sums it up...and stale moves don't really make brawl deeper either. lol They just make it long and drawn out...boring to watch.

 

[The Mad Mage]

Then quit spamming the same move over and over and you won't even notice it.

 

[Aiko]

Stale Moves is when a move that is used repeatedly in near succession, that move will deteriorate in terms of % and knockback. It is put in to encourage the use of a variety of moves rather than abusing 1 or 2 moves.

This was present in melee, but only in terms of %. Knockback was not affected. This was fixed for brawl and is a significant part of the gameplay.

It was NOT laziness on part of the programmers. This is something that was INTENTIONALLY put in. Its even mentioned on Sakurai's blog before Brawl came out.

It is NOT this:

It's part of what makes Smash different from any other fighter.

For example, if you do a kick in say Street Fighter or something, you hit them and it does the same amount of damage whether you hit them on the tip of the opponent's toes or their knee.

While in Smash, in you use Mario's Fsmash when an opponent is as close as you can get, it will have less damage and they'll end up in front of you again, and the opponent can punish you. But if you Sweetspot the Fsmash right at the firey part of his hands, it will do more damage and will knock the opponent further away, not being able to punish you.

This about sweetspotting and stuff is called "Spacing." And this IS in games like street fighter where different part of the hitboxes have different properties.

 

[Rashid]

Well alright, but what's so bad about it that Brawl +ers hate? It seems to do more good than bad, TBH...

 

[The Mad Mage]

Makes some of the 'pros' said because they can't spam their favorite move over and over and over again.

 

[OmegaXF]

Makes some of the 'pros' said because they can't spam their favorite move over and over and over again.

How can you talk about "Pros" when you can't spell correctly?

 

[BurningBlaze]

Yuck, being a Wolf mainer, stale moves stop me spacing as well.

Wolf's Fsmash is the easiest move to make stale, and neutral A combos have more knockback than it sometimes. I'm still not trying Brawl+, but stale moves are another way of making Brawl slow.

 

[The Mad Mage]

How can you talk about "Pros" when you can't spell correctly?

I didn't spell anything wrong in that post. Obviously, your eyes are failing you.

 

[SothE700k]

I didn't spell anything wrong in that post. Obviously, your eyes are failing you.

said =/= sad.
Oh and for future reference incase: your =/= you're
Welcome to Smashboards!

 

[The Mad Mage]

D'aww crap.

Doesn't change the point, though.

And you are correct. You're =/= your. 'Your' is the possessive form of 'you'. If the eyes belong to you, they are YOUR eyes. "You're" is a contraction meaning 'you are'. 'You are eyes' makes no sense.

Why are we discussing proper grammar here?

 

[Ochobobo]

So MetaKnight can't spam his Tornado in an enclosed space for very long, and other moves that lock you in one area.

 

[OmegaXF]

I didn't spell anything wrong in that post. Obviously, your eyes are failing you.

"Makes some of the pros "said"
I've never heard of a pro being said before are you sure it's my eyes that are failing me?

 

[Toadster5]

It seems to me like stale moves gives the characters that were gifted with a larger pool of effective moves (due to poor balancing) an advantage. This seems pretty stupid to me.

 

[brinboy789]

do you REALLY want snakes ftilt to do 21% every time it hits?

 

[The Mad Mage]

"Makes some of the pros "said"
I've never heard of a pro being said before are you sure it's my eyes that are failing me?

Yes, I've noticed that by now. You're welcome to cut the grammar nazi gig anytime you please.

Toadster, you should know the risks when you use a character with fewer effective moves.

 

[Kinzer]

Seems like a couple of people don't/didn't know their stuff.

I'll just try to correct what hasn't already been addressed before.

Well alright, but what's so bad about it that Brawl +ers hate? It seems to do more good than bad, TBH...

From what they tell me, they had to get rid of the stale move decay to make the game more fair apparently contrary to popular belief here (remember they are playing a different game that has hitstun on attacks and you can't react after you get hit).

Let me tell you how it goes down.

If you're pretty much keeping stale move decay in the game, but adding the hitstun, imagine one-move spammers that can actually come to flourish. If you're not imaginative, pretend you're playing Sheik with those physics.

She can literally F-Tilt lock people forever!

No that's no fun when you can't even get out of the one-move attack, right? It's almost like the tornado, but to a bigger extent. Even though the game is made to use more combos, the goal is to make it so that there aren't more broken single move combos and gameplay actually takes skill.

Makes some of the 'pros' said because they can't spam their favorite move over and over and over again.

Again I just want to make sure that you understand that removing stale move decay in B+ actually adds balance to the game, not whatever this is.

I guess some could even go to say that it gives them a more Melee environment to work with.

I'm still not trying Brawl+, but stale moves are another way of making Brawl slow.

People like you make Brawl slow and give it a worse name for it because you can't save your kill moves for the KILL. I know Brawl isn't as good as it could've been, but don't bash when you have no idea what you're talking about, the stale move decay was one of the few things Nintendo got right.

Why are we discussing proper grammar here?

I have no idea.

do you REALLY want snakes ftilt to do 21% every time it hits?

I heard Snake's FTilt can actually lock people if they can't tech it.

Toadster, you should know the risks when you use a character with fewer effective moves.

This. You play your character, if you want to get better you need to realise every character, including the one you might like to play, will have their problems.

 

[Hyrus]

Frankly, I'm of the opinion that stale moves was one of the things done right in Brawl. Whether it was lazy on the part of the programmers is really a moot point, because it adds depth to the game, and removing it removes that depth.

I wholeheartedly disagree.

In Smash Bros, you almost never try to KO an opponent. The goal is to build up damage as efficiently as possible, picking the most powerful move that I can fit into the amount of time I have to punish an attacker. But further, you don't always have much choice in what move you can use to hit your opponent with, depending on a billion circumstances (character, movesets, priority, etc) that you compute in a fraction of a second.

On paper, the idea sounds good. But in a scenario, Wario is going to have to use FSmash or get hit.

What Stale Moves does encourage is spamming. Spamming fast moves, especially a projectile, rapidly gives an otherwise modest KO power character a compensation that makes them as deadly as the heaviest hitters in the game. So Falco can smash away and through the course of combat and some easy projectile hits, keep his KO moves strong. If my Mario's upB hits once for 1 damage, I think "awesome, everything else just got stronger."

I encourage you - go into Training Mode (no stale moves) and play a level 8 for a while - you'll notice no difference in how you play the game. That's how very little it adds to the game, if not takes away from the game due to the empowerment of fast hitting attacks it grants.

===

Personally, I liked Smash64's stale rules. 1 hit drops a move to 75% damage and it takes 2 or 3 other attacks to bring it back to full. Simple and effective. Stale moves do not (as originally stated by Sakurai) discourage spamming - speedy, riskless moves do.

 

[AquaTech]

I'll tell you what's wrong with stale moves. They make killing impossible. That's why we are seeing 3-stock matches regularly take over 5 minutes. A match should take 3-4 minutes, but in Brawl they're taking 5-7.

 

[Kinzer]

Wow I'm out of my mind, if you look at my post I said hitstun where I should've said stale move decay... >.>

I guess that's what you get for only getting one hour of sleep inbetween two days -_-, but I still stand by my point.

 

[The Mad Mage]

To FastLikeMe:

People like you make Brawl slow and give it a worse name for it because you can't save your kill moves for the KILL.

This.

 

[PK-ow!]

Well alright, but what's so bad about it that Brawl +ers hate? It seems to do more good than bad, TBH...

I'll tell you what's wrong with stale moves. They make killing impossible. That's why we are seeing 3-stock matches regularly take over 5 minutes. A match should take 3-4 minutes, but in Brawl they're taking 5-7.

This.

And also, it makes a character like Jigglypuff even more ****ty than normal, because she has to rely on using the same move (two moves) over and over.

Stale moves do not actually encourage move "variety" at all. All it does is make the best strategy for every character less powerful. It's like tripping. No one stops running to avoid tripping, because running is still correct when it's correct.

It added some depth to some characters (i.e., intentionally staling your moves), but that's not worth the cost to the effectiveness of other characters, IMO.

 

[Pr0phetic]

I wholeheartedly disagree.

In Smash Bros, you almost never try to KO an opponent. The goal is to build up damage as efficiently as possible, picking the most powerful move that I can fit into the amount of time I have to punish an attacker.

Im sorry but I think you missed your words here. Almost ALL fighters the name of the game is to KO your opponent. Whether it be by a life bar or knocking you opponent out of the arena (or in Brawl's case, through a blast zone).

Brawl's stale system isn't too good, isn't too bad. It adds depth, but can be very annoying. However, its up to you to utilize it, and it maks you a more concentrated player.

 

[BurningBlaze]

Kinzer don't judge me. I have a lot of experience on my side, and know most Brawl terms. I save things for kills but at the same time, you can get sidestepped when you do it properly. I have a unique playstyle and surely picking a Stale hurt character whould show you that.

Seriously just because I'm new on Smashboards doesn't mean I suck, am a noob or any **** you just sprayed out of your mouth.

 

[Levitas]

Stale moves adds depth in some regards, but makes infinites on Mario and Luigi possible, as well as allowing Sheik to do some stupid combos.

That should be the reason anyone would try to remove stale moves, though I do not know the people in the project and don't really care what they're doing.

 

[Kinzer]

Kinzer don't judge me. I have a lot of experience on my side, and know most Brawl terms. I save things for kills but at the same time, you can get sidestepped when you do it properly. I have a unique playstyle and surely picking a Stale hurt character whould show you that.

Seriously just because I'm new on Smashboards doesn't mean I suck, am a noob or any **** you just sprayed out of your mouth.

Hmm, okay, but a couple of things.

I did not "spray" anything, rather you seem to be implying that I am implying you are a noob. I never said this, the only thing I could accuse you of was just that you did not realise the mechanics and/or you could not kill, and I am deeply sorry for the first half of that because I now know that you know, however stale moves IMHO make it so that you have to be creative and not just spam the same move over and over and hope it kills. This makes it so that you have to adapt and this to me seems more skillful than just mindlessly throwing out a move.

If I can just give you a theoritical example here, somebody who doesn't know their stuff wouldn't know that using the same move won't work if it is constantly used in succession, whereas somebody who knows their shizz would know better than to keep doing something that does not work. Another way to put it is that the better players will have a better mastery of their character and would/should know which moves are appropriate for which situations, whereas again a random person who is mindlessly doing stuff would not keep a track of this.

Stale moves is better when I want something to work, but I should know better, you see where I am going with this?

 

[Ochobobo]

I actually kind of like it when one character spams the same move on me over and over again. Because even if I'm stuck, the more he does it the more likely I'll be able to answer with some devastating punishment.

lolol, but that's almost always against inexperienced players that don't know about stale moves, of course.

 

[bobson]

Stale moves adds depth in some regards, but makes infinites on Mario and Luigi possible

Say wh​a​t?

 

[Hive Mind]

They should diminish stale moves but not remove them.

 

[ph00tbag]

I wholeheartedly disagree.

In Smash Bros, you almost never try to KO an opponent. The goal is to build up damage as efficiently as possible, picking the most powerful move that I can fit into the amount of time I have to punish an attacker. But further, you don't always have much choice in what move you can use to hit your opponent with, depending on a billion circumstances (character, movesets, priority, etc) that you compute in a fraction of a second.

On paper, the idea sounds good. But in a scenario, Wario is going to have to use FSmash or get hit.

What Stale Moves does encourage is spamming. Spamming fast moves, especially a projectile, rapidly gives an otherwise modest KO power character a compensation that makes them as deadly as the heaviest hitters in the game. So Falco can smash away and through the course of combat and some easy projectile hits, keep his KO moves strong. If my Mario's upB hits once for 1 damage, I think "awesome, everything else just got stronger."

I encourage you - go into Training Mode (no stale moves) and play a level 8 for a while - you'll notice no difference in how you play the game. That's how very little it adds to the game, if not takes away from the game due to the empowerment of fast hitting attacks it grants.

===

Personally, I liked Smash64's stale rules. 1 hit drops a move to 75% damage and it takes 2 or 3 other attacks to bring it back to full. Simple and effective. Stale moves do not (as originally stated by Sakurai) discourage spamming - speedy, riskless moves do.

People will spam projectiles no matter what. That's just smart play in any game. Making it smarter won't change much. What about KO moves. In Melee, Falcon could spam Knees all he wanted, and the knockback wouldn't decay. Fox could spam usmash and uair. Sheik could spam fair and dsmash. Along with these, it was good for Fox to spam lasers, and for Sheik to spam needles.

In Brawl+, ZSS can now spam Plasma Whip and bair. Snake can spam ftilt and utilt, MK can spam upb (more than he could in vBrawl), Shiek can once against spam dsmash. Despite all this, Snake can still spam grenades, Diddy can still spam bananas, Sheik can still spam needles, Falco can still spam lasers, and their games will still involve heavy use of stage control via projectiles. If any character is lucky enough to have quick, safe KO moves, and good projectiles, they are so much more set than they were in vBrawl.

and if you want to balance Sheik's ftilt. Balance the ftilt. Don't change the balance of the entire cast.

 

[Mashour2]

Stale moves is exactly what it is called: When a move has gone stale

For example, If I'm Snake, and I constantly use my ftilt, the damage would decrease and have less knockback. It would also become less effective in other ways.