Can a true Marth main exist at the highest level of competition

[Pistallion]

With the tech skill of Foxes improving so much, can a true Marth exist at the highest level of play? It seems as though even Mew2King plays more Shiek than Marth when the big money is on the line

 

[strawhats]

PEWPEWU/if PP ever decides to become a marth main....im done here.

 

[danieljosebatista]

Is it possible? Absolutely, but to be honest it isn't very likely in the near future. It would have to be a player with unquestionable dominance. Marth is a good character but the truth is that he's outclassed by most of the other top tiers at high level play. The only way to compensate for this is with player skill. We'd essentially be seeing the 3rd coming of Marth. I do believe that will happen eventually, but I think that Hax will accomplish this level of play with Captain Falcon before anyone does it with Marth.

 

[dRevan64]

but I think that Hax will accomplish this level of play with Captain Falcon

I would not be certain of that.

 

[BTmoney]

ppu he's like top 10, doesn't get much higher lol.

He's possibly the best player that's not M2k, Mango, PP (who all play marth), Armada, or Hbox
(in the leffen/hax/sfat/unknown tier)

basically marth is good and idk why people still talk about this, not to be rude to the OP. You have to consider how many people have the talent to be that good in the first place then how many of those people want to play marth then how many of those people want to spend their time being solo mains. Out of the top 5 players none of them are even true solo mains.

 

[Deleted member]

very easily.

marth is a much easier character than his players make him out to be.

 

[AustinRC]

Marth mains are viable. There are two reason I could guess that people think otherwise. They don't know how to properly play the character, or they don't put enough effort into learning his bad matchups.

 

[TheGoat]

No. Nobody will ever win only as marth even m2k admits it. The reason ken was good was because the game was new, now that people know how to play, marth sucks. Marth will probably be demoted to pichu-tier the way things are going, he just has nothing going for him.

 

[1MachGO]

The more Foxes and Falcos there are, the more relevant Marth becomes, imo.

 

[BTmoney]

very easily.

marth is a much easier character than his players make him out to be.

can you please elaborate on that

is this like the "fox is the best character but everyone is just bad" mentality (I'm not being facetious)?

 

[goateeguy]

At the highest level, you're playing against an opponent. You're not playing a character match-up. Most people agree that Peach is objectively worse than Marth, but Armada was the best in the world for a couple years. So much of this game is taking a character and making it work for you, as opposed to relying on the character to win for you. Case in point, the Hungrybox bair. He took a single move, perfected its use, and made people think Jigglypuff was god tier for a while.

tl;dr 20XX is a joke. It's a good one, but Marth is not obsolete.

 

[Deleted member]

can you please elaborate on that

is this like the "fox is the best character but everyone is just bad" mentality (I'm not being facetious)?

yes. it's just like that.

 

[(G-S.N) Chicago Ben]

No. Nobody will ever win only as marth even m2k admits it. The reason ken was good was because the game was new, now that people know how to play, marth sucks. Marth will probably be demoted to pichu-tier the way things are going, he just has nothing going for him.

You wanna play M2K's or PPu's or Mangos marth and say that?
Marth is just a different play style from Fox or falco and tends to be a floater character that doesn't always work well with the players with fast pace of games these days. FAR from weak though. We just need people that are great at the spacing and execution game that exhibit the right amount of patience.

Things going for Marth
-His grab range is DOUBLE THE SIZE OF HIS ARM
-fsmash tipper can kill at 50
-Great edge-guard game
-Ken "Combo" Huoag
-Everything has a tipper basically.
-Offensively great off edge
-Lot of poking moves
-Great platform poking abilities (With lower platforms)
-HAS A ****ING TIARA

 

[Nicholas1024]

Yes. M2K has beaten both PP's Falco and Mango's Fox/Falco with Marth before. PP took a set off of Armada's Peach with his Marth. PP's taken a set off of M2K's Sheik with his Marth. The only absolute top level matchup we haven't recently seen a Marth win is against Hungrybox, but PPU came reasonably close , and I imagine PP might do it someday if Hbox murders the Falco hard enough game 1.

So yeah, Marth can definitely still win at the highest level. If your argument is that a solo Marth main doesn't exist right now at highest level… well, Hbox is the only member of the top 5 that doesn't carry a secondary, and PPU is as high as you get without actually breaking into the "top level".

 

[strawhats]

Yes. M2K has beaten both PP's Falco and Mango's Fox/Falco with Marth before. PP took a set off of Armada's Peach with his Marth. PP's taken a set off of M2K's Sheik with his Marth. The only absolute top level matchup we haven't recently seen a Marth win is against Hungrybox, but PPU came reasonably close , and I imagine PP might do it someday if Hbox murders the Falco hard enough game 1.

So yeah, Marth can definitely still win at the highest level. If your argument is that a solo Marth main doesn't exist right now at highest level… well, Hbox is the only member of the top 5 that doesn't carry a secondary, and PPU is as high as you get without actually breaking into the "top level".

if im not mistaken PP was beating hbox's puff with marth in some seriouslies at Zenith 2011...they were supposed to do a MM from what i remember at that tournament, but it just didn't happen. (probably in part cause hbox wasn't feeling it after playing pp's marth in those casual sets)

PP will probably beat hbox with marth soon enough in a tournament set if the opportunity presents itself...i could also see PPU and Austin ARC beating hbox's puff. I'd like to say m2k could too if he tried but he makes too many errors/impatience in the neutral game under duress.

 

[soma ghost]

Has there been a marth to beat Axe's pikachu?

 

[NonSequtur]

I keep hearing PPU beat Axe's Pikachu, but I can never find the video.

 

[The Depths]

There's no reason someone can't do it with Marth when someone has already done it with Peach. Granted Armada had to use a secondary for jigglypuff, but Marth's matchups are better than Peach's (though that jiggly MU is still pretty rough). Really Marth has shown he's capable of winning against every top character except jiggly, and PPU put on a good showing last time he played hbox. Is Marth viable? Yeah. Is it humanly possible to be a pure Marth main and win at the highest level? Yes. Is it something that's easy enough for people to want to do it? Hell no lol

 

[strawhats]

I keep hearing PPU beat Axe's Pikachu, but I can never find the video.

PPU and axe played in the early rounds of Bracket Pools at NCR...i don't think the set was recorded unfortunately but PPU beat Axe 2-0 both games on BF if I remember correctly. Also Marth can beat jiggs...pivots are important for setting up kills at mid- reasonably high percents(see Austin Arc's pivot>fsmash/dtilt/utilt/sheild pivot grabs vid)

 

[BTmoney]

if im not mistaken PP was beating hbox's puff with marth in some seriouslies at Zenith 2011...they were supposed to do a MM from what i remember at that tournament, but it just didn't happen. (probably in part cause hbox wasn't feeling it after playing pp's marth in those casual sets)

PP will probably beat hbox with marth soon enough in a tournament set if the opportunity presents itself...i could also see PPU and Austin ARC beating hbox's puff. I'd like to say m2k could too if he tried but he makes too many errors/impatience in the neutral game under duress.

check out PP vs Hbox TO9's PM sets. PP went all Marth and kinda junked him some games, he won the set lol
(no need to elaborate on the slight PM differences for Marth)

 

[strawhats]

yeah i definitely saw that set. PP's marth is filthy, especially when marth's spike appears to be a bit better in PM.

 

[Zhea]

He ain't top 4 on the tier list for nothing mang.

 

[Raim]

I feel like Marth still has so much potential. For example, I haven't seen his sword dancing implemented in creative, yet consistently viable ways yet. His grab game is incredible too. I'd like to see an upgraded "Azen" type Marth with a more unpredictable and flowing SD game.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I feel like an all-Marth player could be super scary. He is at least dangerous CP material in this ruleset....just today KDJ used him to secure a CP advantage and win a match vs M2K's Fox on YS!

I don't see the character being held back by anything except the innovation of the players, which could cause problems for him without a dedicated, high-achieving player. With our player base growing, the odds of that player appearing increase =)

I hope to do my own contribution to Marth as well. I feel I have more to do with him before I am satisfied. Some zoning and edgeguarding and juggling tricks really need to be developed....

And Strawhats, my inner nitpicker says it was Zenith 2012, not 2011 =p

 

[Sozen the Phoenix]

Many marths that I've played have used dancing blade. Dr. Peepee and PewPewU love using it to set up for up-tilt kills on floaties. Zoso uses it often to force missed techs against foxes at high percent when it can be hard to get much going other ways. I remember seeing this from Zoso in a set against T.Webb. When I find the video I'll post it. Many people also use it to help setup spikes when the fair won't or doesn't combo right.

 

[JesiahTEG]

I think the answer to this is definitely yes. For sure. It's all player skill.

 

[JFB (JurgaBurgaFlintines)]

I personally think Marth can hang with Fox, Falco, and Captain Falcon. He has many things going for him like his tippers, Ken Combo, Dancing Blade, and good combos.
I think it all depends on who plays Marth. If there was another Ken or M2K or what not, Marth can still hang.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I feel like an all-Marth player could be super scary. He is at least dangerous CP material in this ruleset....just today KDJ used him to secure a CP advantage and win a match vs M2K's Fox on YS!

I don't see the character being held back by anything except the innovation of the players, which could cause problems for him without a dedicated, high-achieving player. With our player base growing, the odds of that player appearing increase =)

I hope to do my own contribution to Marth as well. I feel I have more to do with him before I am satisfied. Some zoning and edgeguarding and juggling tricks really need to be developed....

I see sort of two main modes of thinking about how to approach Smash. One scheme (I think everyone has at first) is the a person should be unpredictable. Often times I see people bringing up Mango for this aspect. However, I am not certain if he is being unpredictable in a reckless way or being unpredictable in a safe way. What I mean is mixing-up your approach. For example, is it good to use risky methods such as throwing in a WD fsmash or counter every so often.

The alternative node of thinking from what I have seen is to stick with safe strategies. For example, WD Fsmash while your opponent is in neutral is a bad idea. Actually, Marth has virtually no safe committing actions (as I can tell) against an opponent in neutral. Dtilt is pretty much his only move to fit this description. However, I think most characters in this game do not have relatively safe committing moves against someone in neutral.

Either way, with these two nodes of thought in mind I am not sure the sort of innovation you are referring too. Innovation could potentially be completely unpredictable in all aspects against a neutral opponent. Or maybe innovation is being clever about how to apply your safe strategies.

Second thoughts: Maybe I am thinking about this the wrong way. As often in life the moderation between two extremes is usually the best path to follow. So, perhaps its best to stick with safe strategies, but deviation of a marth player comes from looking for methods outside of the standard. For example, Dtilt seems the only safe committal move against people, however, if your opponent against the ledge, then SH Nair and other moves becomes viable moves to use which are safe. If you get a hit, great. If your opponent shields, you push them off the ledge. If they spot dodge/roll I believe you have enough time to escape back toward center stage. Depends upon the timing of there move compared to you.

In the end, I do not know.... yet. I agree Marth solo should be completely viable to compete with the upper echelon. He doens't have his guaranteed combos as well as other characters too, but he makes up for it with that wall of disjoint against your way of getting back to the stage. Plus, I believe he has the means to get a hit which starts his way of ending your stock. The only draw back it feels is this glass cannon feeling. If I get hit once, Marth seems to just perish.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Hello, I am the newest edition to the Melee and I am learning about the metgame, but I have a long way to go. I've always watched videos about Maylay, despite not understanding much of it, in-depth. Now I understand much more, but I still have questions.

Why are people doubting Marth's viability...or something along those lines? He seems like a great character.


EDIT: When I see Top-level players play him, he's just so beast. I want to mention M2K, KoreanDJ & PewPewU, over here.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I see sort of two main modes of thinking about how to approach Smash. One scheme (I think everyone has at first) is the a person should be unpredictable. Often times I see people bringing up Mango for this aspect. However, I am not certain if he is being unpredictable in a reckless way or being unpredictable in a safe way. What I mean is mixing-up your approach. For example, is it good to use risky methods such as throwing in a WD fsmash or counter every so often.

The alternative node of thinking from what I have seen is to stick with safe strategies. For example, WD Fsmash while your opponent is in neutral is a bad idea. Actually, Marth has virtually no safe committing actions (as I can tell) against an opponent in neutral. Dtilt is pretty much his only move to fit this description. However, I think most characters in this game do not have relatively safe committing moves against someone in neutral.

Either way, with these two nodes of thought in mind I am not sure the sort of innovation you are referring too. Innovation could potentially be completely unpredictable in all aspects against a neutral opponent. Or maybe innovation is being clever about how to apply your safe strategies.

Second thoughts: Maybe I am thinking about this the wrong way. As often in life the moderation between two extremes is usually the best path to follow. So, perhaps its best to stick with safe strategies, but deviation of a marth player comes from looking for methods outside of the standard. For example, Dtilt seems the only safe committal move against people, however, if your opponent against the ledge, then SH Nair and other moves becomes viable moves to use which are safe. If you get a hit, great. If your opponent shields, you push them off the ledge. If they spot dodge/roll I believe you have enough time to escape back toward center stage. Depends upon the timing of there move compared to you.

In the end, I do not know.... yet. I agree Marth solo should be completely viable to compete with the upper echelon. He doens't have his guaranteed combos as well as other characters too, but he makes up for it with that wall of disjoint against your way of getting back to the stage. Plus, I believe he has the means to get a hit which starts his way of ending your stock. The only draw back it feels is this glass cannon feeling. If I get hit once, Marth seems to just perish.

People are not successful for being unnecessarily risky. Even high-risk high reward plays often have a surprisingly lower risk when associated with surrounding plays. This means that the WD Fsmash or Counter can be useful, but only within the context of what has happened in the metagame and how the player has conditioned the other, to be quite vague. Breaking down what is happening to Marth and for Marth at every interaction is exhaustive but a good way to learn when some plays like what you mentioned can be useful. When confused about why something worked, I suggest rewatching the entire segment of video that exists before that one particular moment(of course this doesn't fully explain metagame influences, but it's a good start.)

If someone understood how the metagame looked and how to optimize safe strategies while skewing some typically riskier strategies in their favor as well, they generate more options for their opponent to hold in mind while fighting them. This is a cognitive advantage. This is why metagames must keep improving and players can and will keep advancing their characters and overall games. If they do not, then they will be quite easy to pick apart and understand. Said simply, they will be stale and not so viable competitively anymore.

For Marth, this innovation could start by seeing that a large portion of current Marth successes are based on what Umbreon likes to discuss. The ground game, the pokes, and the threatening movement are all examples of this. Of course, to refine these things is innovation too, but when the metagame shifts toward this grounded play, Marth can begin jumping again. He can jump again because his opponents will not be expecting his jumps. There are good and bad ways of doing this. Ken tends to do lots of good and bad ways so he's an interesting example. Sometimes Ken can force people to consider his side B and Dtilt and grab, so if they jump or run quite far to get away, he can Fair or Fsmash them respectively. He can also swing these options too much or relentlessly Nair forward and get punished. There are good and bad ways of doing this, but the point stands that in a metagame where grounded play is becoming quite successful, Ken will see more success than can be expected by being "counter-intuitive." It's a bit complicated as the metagame is not quite fully grounded yet and he is also just building his fundamentals and proficiency again, but I believe we can still see the clear differences in risk regarding his strategy.

Marth has some amazingly guaranteed combos on much of the cast, and DI traps when he doesn't have full combos usually. Pivoting helps with this a lot. To say he can't punish between these things and his awesome juggle game is inconsiderate imo. In some ways, I believe his combo game to be more effective than the spacies'. Regardless, he can be optimized on punishment to a much greater degree and also in neutral. I think his defensive options on hit can also be fleshed out more too, especially if he gets to make it back to the edge since he can reverse edgedash.

So basically what I'm saying is, we can all get better and Marth has TONS of work to do in every facet of the game. Let's not be so negative without appreciating the work many of the great Marths have done for us lately and will hopefully continue to do =)

 

[Keebler]

I would say yes, although there has been a lack of Marth at the absolute highest level of play, as has been stated earlier in the thread, all of the top 5 except Hbox have a Marth. I think a lot of Marth play is stuck back in the MLG era from when Ken was the undisputed king. The meta-game has shifted a lot these days, so I feel like a lot of people have let Marth fall to the wayside. I feel like the recent resurgence in the Smash community, bringing in a bunch of newbies (like me) may be exactly what we need to get out of the 20XX Fox/Falco slump that we've seen. Hopefully us new people will bring in some new style that will revive a bunch of characters that haven't seen as much play recently.

You also can't forget that a couple of really good Marths came out of retirement recently, and once they catch up to the metagame they might be able to show us some cool new stuff :D

 

[Sozen the Phoenix]

I think Marth is a hard character to get very good with. Being great with marth takes so much understanding of the game. I feel like spacie players can at least improve their techskill a bunch when they run into mental blocks with game understanding. Marth can do that as well, but to a lesser extent. As a marth main, I think trying to understand the way to play marth as umbreon and PP (for lack of a better word) insist on is very hard to grasp. Hopefully understanding will come soon. But I believe a lot of people hit a mental wall and switch characters, instead of trying to break the mental wall.

 

[AustinRC]

Martha is totally a viable character. Just have to learn some of his more difficult matchups and then you're golden!

 

[raymundoTheGod]

I still feel like Marth is the best character around. Although he is not #1, Marth still has the potential to be the best, or at least be able to not have any poor matchups. We just need to wait for a Ken Jr. to come around and show it.