Social C. Falcon Social

[Divinokage]

I feel like when I Hit this handicap 9 bowser in the head with a knee I cant hit the L cancel but when I hit him from the neck down I can nail the L cancel.

That means you are doing it either too early or too late. L-cancel only works for a certain amount of frames so if you miss it then you are ****ed. I think the general tendency is to L-cancel when something has been hit but that's the wrong way to do it. You have to do it when you are close to landing on the ground.

Wolfy, maybe.. I'll see if I can get some practice in that way to see what he can do.

 

[iRobinhoood]

I want it to be a habitual thing and not something in looking for. Weak knees and meteor knees are hard if you don't know which is gonna get hit.


I think I have 6 frames prior to landing to put in an L cancel input.

 

[Wolfy!]

I would very much appreciate any findings, Kage. =D

I'll experiment with it when I can get the chance, too.

 

[Divinokage]

I want it to be a habitual thing and not something in looking for. Weak knees and meteor knees are hard if you don't know which is gonna get hit.


I think I have 6 frames prior to landing to put in an L cancel input.

It shouldn't really matter after a point, I think it's easier to simply look at the animation of your character and then L-cancel according to how you move. The better control you have of your character, the easier it becomes.

 

[tarheeljks]

No. I don't think get up attack edge guards are optimal. It is a mediocre edge guard and only should be used when you aren't sure if the opponent will barely make it back on the stage.

The knock back on get up attack is not very high.





Edit:

More importantly. Let's discuss about sheik double jab instead of the usual single jab reset. Is this going to be a for falcons in the trend and problem in the future vs sheik? I'd love to hear what s2j and hax thinks

tafokints told me that falcon can feasibly escape this by anticipating the double jab and doing a getup roll out of the jab. i can't remember exactly what he said unfortunately, but it was rather effective when i tried it against him. it's just a mixup though b/c sheik can counter this by only jabbing once for the reset, but if you established that you can sdi out of jab resets you can force sheik to guess.

unless it turns out to be possible for sheik to chase the getup rolls on reaction lol

 

[Wolfy!]

Handy information!

 

[iRobinhoood]

Determination level right now 8/10

Edit: Never mind Dragon Ball Z Super Saiyain 3 Ascension Theme just came on iPod. Motivation level temporarily above 9000



This is soooo hard. I feel like I need to learn two different L cancels for falcon. One for meteor knee connect and one for aerials on shield. You need a lot of patience for the latter.

Should the knee always be fast falled is used for a short hop approach? It seems I can't hit the L cancel on the ones that aren't fast falled.

 

[Nakamaru]

For sheik's double jab reset i've had pretty good success with just using the same method for 1 jab. All i do differently is hold up after the SDI until the 2nd jab connects then jump out. If she doesn't jab twice just grab her.

 

[Wenbobular]

Determination level right now 8/10

Edit: Never mind Dragon Ball Z Super Saiyain 3 Ascension Theme just came on iPod. Motivation level temporarily above 9000



This is soooo hard. I feel like I need to learn two different L cancels for falcon. One for meteor knee connect and one for aerials on shield. You need a lot of patience for the latter.

Should the knee always be fast falled is used for a short hop approach? It seems I can't hit the L cancel on the ones that aren't fast falled.

Just gotta learn the timings better bro

 

[iRobinhoood]

When I get fed up I play Pokemon for a bit. It helps

 

[leffen]

tafokints told me that falcon can feasibly escape this by anticipating the double jab and doing a getup roll out of the jab. i can't remember exactly what he said unfortunately, but it was rather effective when i tried it against him. it's just a mixup though b/c sheik can counter this by only jabbing once for the reset, but if you established that you can sdi out of jab resets you can force sheik to guess.

unless it turns out to be possible for sheik to chase the getup rolls on reaction lol

Double jab is much worse, since it gives you two chances to SDI and it has more lag and pushes you further away. You can simply SDI up twice, and if they only do a single jab you'll jump out with the second input (which is probably what you wanted anyway)


The reason that it worked against hax is because Hax scrubbed it up and didn't smash DI properly.

 

[Wolfy!]

Ah, okay. Makes sense.

 

[Winston]

vs hax it worked because he tried to double jump after SDIing the first jab up (which is a good standard response to the jab), but he just got jab -> grabbed out of the air.

edit: yep leffen's right this is totally wrong

 

[leffen]

vs hax it worked because he tried to double jump after SDIing the first jab up (which is a good standard response to the jab), but he just got jab -> grabbed out of the air.

Most of the times (if not all) he didn't start jumping, you can clearly see this in the video (he is still in "lying down" animation)
The sheiks jab would have to be very perfect considering how fast you rise after a DJ and even then, you could just DI the second jab into a uair which hit sheik out of her lag. If she has time to shield, you would be far away, so you're safe from cc, and since its still low its +1 on shield with lcancel.


Almost everything of Hax vs Zenith was just a show of a much better player ****** a worse player, and shouldn't be considered the "standard" or anything like it. In the neutral game, m2k read hax like a book, and when Hax got any hits, he didn't properly convert.
M2K also got him with an insane amount of escapeable gimmicks but Hax simply failed to escape them. I could go through what you should do but if you look at it closely its pretty obvious imho

 

[Winston]

Yea you're right. Watched it again. I wasn't paying attention before.

 

[leffen]

Man I love being right.

 

[VA]

Double jab is much worse, since it gives you two chances to SDI and it has more lag and pushes you further away. You can simply SDI up twice, and if they only do a single jab you'll jump out with the second input (which is probably what you wanted anyway)


The reason that it worked against hax is because Hax scrubbed it up and didn't smash DI properly.

I disagree. Escapable stuff such as this isn't bad. Hax (vs Amsah) makes good use of the single SDI of jab resets and probably does that quite regularly. I think m2k was adding the second for shenanigans knowing Hax wouldn't expect it and react.

There isn't a whole lot of escapable stuff in the set, but even so a lot of it is good as it works anyway. Smash, and other fighters aren't about doing things that work 100% of the time, 100% of the time

I main Sakura in SF4

 

[leffen]

I disagree. Escapable stuff such as this isn't bad. Hax (vs Amsah) makes good use of the single SDI of jab resets and probably does that quite regularly. I think m2k was adding the second for shenanigans knowing Hax wouldn't expect it and react.

There isn't a whole lot of escapable stuff in the set, but even so a lot of it is good as it works anyway. Smash, and other fighters aren't about doing things that work 100% of the time, 100% of the time

I main Sakura in SF4

"There isn't a whole lot of escapable stuff in the set".

yea, uthrow->ftilt, dthrow chaingrab/dashattack is a true combo with proper di
yup. You're simply wrong.

"Smash, and other fighters aren't about doing things that work 100% of the time, 100% of the time "
Uh, gimmicks are useful, but m2ks HEAVY reliance on them is his biggest flaw as a smashers. It's why he can go from jv4 stocking PP on FD to getting ***** (along with his confidence).
If you actually look at his combos, his world renowned FD combos, the combos are actually quite bad. He constantly lets them out of the combo, does loads of stuff you could DI out off and always starts using tippers at 70% where they wont kill in hope for a bad DI, instead of doing simple, consistent combos that always work (learn from armada's marth lol).
He however knows these gimmicks so much better than the opponent and he is so good overall at FD that its still looks dominant when he succeeds, but when he doesn't (because gimmicks don't consistently work) he gets his *** kicked. This time M2K's tricks all worked against hax, but when they don't hax gets very close to winning (considering how much better m2k is overall that is a feat).


But of course, there are always mixups. Nothing works everytime, but that doesn't make everything a gimmick.

also: both armada and Daigo heavily advice people to do things that are consistent and to not rely on gimmicks. All the top top players but M2K more or less rely on their strong fundamentals more than anything >_>


But whatever, spam gimmicks as much as you like. I know you build your entire game around them lol, so whatever works for you. Just don't get surprised when someone punishes all those downsmashes you so frequently spam on shield

 

[Van.]

Thinking m2k should larn from Armadas marth...damn. thats the epitome of regional bias

why do you always pick a fight dude? like stfu no one cares

 

[leffen]

I think all the top players could learn stuff from each others

whatever dude, if you're ******** enough to think that M2K's marth couldn't learn from a ton of marths then I cba lol

 

[ShroudedOne]

This is obviously just a plot. Leffen says really smart, intuitive things, masked with abrasive, confrontational language, to judge which people are smart enough to see the reason in his posts. It's a test, Smashboards, a test.

 

[Beat!]

M2K could definitely learn a thing or two from Armada's Marth. That doesn't mean Armada's Marth is better, and I highly doubt that's what leffen meant.

You're being very ignorant if you think M2K (or anyone, for that matter) does exactly everything better than players he outperforms and is better than overall. That kind of thinking (along with some other stuff) is what hinders improvement for tons of players.

 

[VA]

"There isn't a whole lot of escapable stuff in the set".

yea, uthrow->ftilt, dthrow chaingrab/dashattack is a true combo with proper di
yup. You're simply wrong.

"Smash, and other fighters aren't about doing things that work 100% of the time, 100% of the time "
Uh, gimmicks are useful, but m2ks HEAVY reliance on them is his biggest flaw as a smashers. It's why he can go from jv4 stocking PP on FD to getting ***** (along with his confidence).
If you actually look at his combos, his world renowned FD combos, the combos are actually quite bad. He constantly lets them out of the combo, does loads of stuff you could DI out off and always starts using tippers at 70% where they wont kill in hope for a bad DI, instead of doing simple, consistent combos that always work (learn from armada's marth lol).
He however knows these gimmicks so much better than the opponent and he is so good overall at FD that its still looks dominant when he succeeds, but when he doesn't (because gimmicks don't consistently work) he gets his *** kicked. This time M2K's tricks all worked against hax, but when they don't hax gets very close to winning (considering how much better m2k is overall that is a feat).


But of course, there are always mixups. Nothing works everytime, but that doesn't make everything a gimmick.

also: both armada and Daigo heavily advice people to do things that are consistent and to not rely on gimmicks. All the top top players but M2K more or less rely on their strong fundamentals more than anything >_>


But whatever, spam gimmicks as much as you like. I know you build your entire game around them lol, so whatever works for you. Just don't get surprised when someone punishes all those downsmashes you so frequently spam on shield

I agree with most of what you're saying and lol at me building my entire game around gimmicks. Just because you lost our first set because of one, doesn't mean you need to get all salty.

I just think the particular case of the double jab was less of a gimmick and more of a mix up. It doesn't work so much when he tries it in game 2 and that's what happens when you spam a mix up, people get used to it.

Amsah I think relies on gimmicks like uthrow into whatever which I find kind of crappy. I do find myself asking myself why he isn't going for something true or guaranteed.

I watched Hax vs SFAT at genesis 2 and was completely confused as to why SFAT let himself get CG'd 4 times on the last stock and then drop zoned.

That "spamming" dsmash on shield is not a gimmick, it's nerves

 

[iRobinhoood]

I watched Hax vs SFAT at genesis 2 and was completely confused as to why SFAT let himself get CG'd 4 times on the last stock and then drop zoned.

Didn't the same exact thing happen at Apex 2012?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=PlwfE6LmZ1Q#t=221s

 

[leffen]

I agree with most of what you're saying and lol at me building my entire game around gimmicks. Just because you lost our first set because of one, doesn't mean you need to get all salty.

I just think the particular case of the double jab was less of a gimmick and more of a mix up. It doesn't work so much when he tries it in game 2 and that's what happens when you spam a mix up, people get used to it.

You beating me had nothing to do with why I thought you were "gimmicky". It originates all the way from when I saw hack and you play and charles also confirmed it. I don't remember myself losing to any gimmick, all I remember losing to was being in horrible shape (no sleep+reallysick+switcing between brawl), playing bad and underrating you. It was my fault if anything, not trying to john or anything.

You just play a really weird style with lots of little tricks and gimmicks and way less around consistent stuff like armada. I have no problem with it, but I think it limits you against people that don't mess up and have good fundamentals (one of the reasons why I think you got run over by Ice's fox)

Double Jab isn't a mixup, its a gimmick. Its almost useless once the opponent learns the proper answer to it. It didn't work worse in game 2, Hax simply miss the tech 103810381 times in the first game where he neglected that option in game 2.
People getting used to a mixup shouldn't heavily decrease its risk/reward, that is what makes it a gimmick. A true "mixup" doesn't work less no matter how much you use it (using it PREDICTABLY is another thing, but that is why its called a mixup and not a combo)

Amsah I think relies on gimmicks like uthrow into whatever which I find kind of crappy. I do find myself asking myself why he isn't going for something true or guaranteed.

I don't get it, you where the one that said that gimmicks were good.

That "spamming" dsmash on shield is not a gimmick, it's nerves

I was moreso pointing at the fact that you somehow had missed the fact that its punishable with proper shield DI/timing, which heavily reduces it uses and makes it a "gimmick" in many situations.

EDIT: lol **** this discussion. inb4 falcon mains whine more. im out.

 

[VA]

You beating me had nothing to do with why I thought you were "gimmicky". It originates all the way from when I saw hack and you play and charles also confirmed it. I don't remember myself losing to any gimmick, all I remember losing to was being in horrible shape (no sleep+reallysick+switcing between brawl), playing bad and underrating you. It was my fault if anything, not trying to john or anything.

You just play a really weird style with lots of little tricks and gimmicks and way less around consistent stuff like armada. I have no problem with it, but I think it limits you against people that don't mess up and have good fundamentals (one of the reasons why I think you got run over by Ice's fox)

Double Jab isn't a mixup, its a gimmick. Its almost useless once the opponent learns the proper answer to it. It didn't work worse in game 2, Hax simply miss the tech 103810381 times in the first game where he neglected that option in game 2.
People getting used to a mixup shouldn't heavily decrease its risk/reward, that is what makes it a gimmick. A true "mixup" doesn't work less no matter how much you use it (using it PREDICTABLY is another thing, but that is why its called a mixup and not a combo)


I don't get it, you where the one that said that gimmicks were good.

I was moreso pointing at the fact that you somehow had missed the fact that its punishable with proper shield DI/timing, which heavily reduces it uses and makes it a "gimmick" in many situations.

EDIT: lol **** this discussion. inb4 falcon mains whine more. im out.

lol you think I AM gimmicky and Charles isn't? Confused boy.

Ice did not RUN me over, and I was playing a clear strategy that whole tournament but it dissipated in some matches when I got nervous and couldn't concentrate on it. Watch my match vs Aska.

Also, yes double jab is a mix up between 1 jab and 2 jabs, it's pretty obvious. What's better in your opinion?

I wasn't saying gimmicks, as you call them, are good. I was saying the shenanigans can be useful, I like them it's true, but I wouldn't say I rely on them. Or if I once did I'm trying not to now.

EDIT: since when were you watching me vs Hack? In tournament, as I recall, it was just Ying sat next him.

 

[Van.]

I think all the top players could learn stuff from each others

whatever dude, if you're ******** enough to think that M2K's marth couldn't learn from a ton of marths then I cba lol

i mean i kind of get what you're saying, he doesn't always end in tippers, somtimes gets carried away with upairs and is forced to nair uselessly, but there is absolutely nothing about marth armada knows that m2k doesn't, and "gimmicky" or not, his marth style is clearly surperior to armadas.

Your post didn't make a point of admitting that quite enough for my liking

 

[leffen]

lol you think I AM gimmicky and Charles isn't? Confused boy.

Ice did not RUN me over, and I was playing a clear strategy that whole tournament but it dissipated in some matches when I got nervous and couldn't concentrate on it. Watch my match vs Aska.

Also, yes double jab is a mix up between 1 jab and 2 jabs, it's pretty obvious. What's better in your opinion?

I wasn't saying gimmicks, as you call them, are good. I was saying the shenanigans can be useful, I like them it's true, but I wouldn't say I rely on them. Or if I once did I'm trying not to now.

EDIT: since when were you watching me vs Hack? In tournament, as I recall, it was just Ying sat next him.

I didn't mention Charles, but what he said about your playstyle was very much in line with what I got from playing you/watching you.

I was standing and watching your set while talking to some swedes. I didn't watch the whole set but I already saw what I talked about.

A double jab is NOT a mixup between 1 jab and 2 jabs. Sheesh, read up please. If you PROPERLY smashDI assuming for two jabs, you'll jump just like normal if he does a single jab (but the falcon has more time to react and sheik has more lag).
Jab 2 is worse in just about every way but against people who don't know about it.
AKA G_I_M_M_I_C_K


edit: how is you getting overrun by Ice remotely related to your set vs Aska?
All I saw vs Aska was a marth that did not know how to punish endless dash attack spam and turnip pulling

 

[VA]

I didn't mention Charles, but what he said about your playstyle was very much in line with what I got from playing you/watching you.

I was standing and watching your set while talking to some swedes. I didn't watch the whole set but I already saw what I talked about.

A double jab is NOT a mixup between 1 jab and 2 jabs. Sheesh, read up please. If you PROPERLY smashDI assuming for two jabs, you'll jump just like normal if he does a single jab (but the falcon has more time to react and sheik has more lag).
Jab 2 is worse in just about every way but against people who don't know about it.
AKA G_I_M_M_I_C_K


edit: how is you getting overrun by Ice remotely related to your set vs Aska?
All I saw vs Aska was a marth that did not know how to punish endless dash attack spam and turnip pulling

Yeah I'm pretty sure if there are two options available, and your opponent has to do something different to each I'd consider it a mix up. Up jumping after the reset everytime would be predicatable and bad.

But anyway I'm done talking to you about this. You aren't a very receptive person and are more concerned with being right than discussion. It's quite juvenile.

P.S lol at you listening to Charles, the guy that told me he buffers shines, that falcon is bigger in NTSC and Marth's sword has differentl stun in PAL. The guy speaks a lot of ****.

 

[It's me Q]

I didn't mention Charles, but what he said about your playstyle was very much in line with what I got from playing you/watching you.

I was standing and watching your set while talking to some swedes. I didn't watch the whole set but I already saw what I talked about.

A double jab is NOT a mixup between 1 jab and 2 jabs. Sheesh, read up please. If you PROPERLY smashDI assuming for two jabs, you'll jump just like normal if he does a single jab (but the falcon has more time to react and sheik has more lag).
Jab 2 is worse in just about every way but against people who don't know about it.
AKA G_I_M_M_I_C_K


edit: how is you getting overrun by Ice remotely related to your set vs Aska?
All I saw vs Aska was a marth that did not know how to punish endless dash attack spam and turnip pulling

Take a breath mate. Didnt you just bow out of this discussion? Lots of sperging over menial **** here. Also your attitude is cringeworthy, can you see this? Try relaxing and respecting other people.

 

[Beat!]

there is absolutely nothing about marth armada knows that m2k doesn't

You don't know this.

, and "gimmicky" or not, his marth style is clearly surperior to armadas.

Hey look, you missed the point again.

You really need to understand that being better than someone overall doesn't mean you're necessarily better at every single aspect.

 

[VA]

Take a breath mate. Didnt you just bow out of this discussion? Lots of sperging over menial **** here. Also your attitude is cringeworthy, can you see this? Try relaxing and respecting other people.

Are you talking to me?

 

[leffen]

Yeah I'm pretty sure if there are two options available, and your opponent has to do something different to each I'd consider it a mix up. Up jumping after the reset everytime would be predicatable and bad.

But anyway I'm done talking to you about this. You aren't a very receptive person and are more concerned with being right than discussion. It's quite juvenile.

P.S lol at you listening to Charles, the guy that told me he buffers shines, that falcon is bigger in NTSC and Marth's sword has differentl stun in PAL. The guy speaks a lot of ****.

You can do the exact same inputs and it "option selects" depending on if your opponent does one or two jabs. You don't have to do anything different, so its NOT a mixup. Yes, Jumping out can be bad (even though its really really hard to punish) but as I said before if you read, you can also uair out of it by still just using one input for both 1 jab and 2 jabs.


Why the hell did you come in here anyway? To say that gimmicks are nifty to have? You obviously didn't have any experience/knowledge about the jab thing.

and fine, I don't care about a discussion which you have no clear stance on (gimmicks) and something you are wrong about /have no knowledge about (jab reset) and you are the one that takes so much pride in your gameplay that you don't realize your flaws.
oh, and I care about being right about the topic, which is WHY there is a discussion.

Discussion for discussions sake where I lie about your playstyle and tell you jab 2 is a mixup when its not may be MATURE and RESPECTFUL, but its wrong and I don't do ignorant.

@Its me Q: I'm disrespectful? jeez, you blew my mind with your extraordinary observation and you're advice is helpful in so many ways.

No, really!

@VA: He quoted me >_>

 

[VA]

You can do the exact same inputs and it "option selects" depending on if your opponent does one or two jabs. You don't have to do anything different, so its NOT a mixup. Yes, Jumping out can be bad (even though its really really hard to punish) but as I said before if you read, you can also uair out of it by still just using one input for both 1 jab and 2 jabs.


Why the hell did you come in here anyway? To say that gimmicks are nifty to have? You obviously didn't have any experience/knowledge about the jab thing.

and fine, I don't care about a discussion which you have no clear stance on (gimmicks) and something you are wrong about /have no knowledge about (jab reset) and you are the one that takes so much pride in your gameplay that you don't realize your flaws.
oh, and I care about being right about the topic, which is WHY there is a discussion.

Discussion for discussions sake where I lie about your playstyle and tell you jab 2 is a mixup when its not may be MATURE and RESPECTFUL, but its wrong and I don't do ignorant.

@Its me Q: I'm disrespectful? jeez, you blew my mind with your extraordinary observation and you're advice is helpful in so many ways.

No, really!

@VA: He quoted me >_>

OK Leffen, you've read all of these situations correctly and know everything about what I think of how I play from these 4 posts.

I'm sorry I challenged you with my pitiful ignorance and came into this thread because I was interested by something.

 

[leffen]

So an ironic statement while ignoring all the facts around the thing you were so interested about is so much better than me calling out your bull****.

Oh no

and why do you think I only base it off these 4 points jesus.

 

[VA]

So an ironic statement while ignoring all the facts around the thing you were so interested about is so much better than me calling out your bull****.

Oh no

and why do you think I only base it off these 4 points jesus.

Dude, you're the worst. How the **** else would you know how I think I play, I've never made reference to it in a conversation with you before. You've hardly spoken to me, you ignored me until you beat me at the last tournament and have no interest in playing me.

I posted because I thought m2k's choice of double jab was more than a useless gimmick, maybe it's not I don't even care. I asked your opinion but you just kept telling me how dumb I am.

You're painfully infantile man, one day you'll see this.

 

[Wenbobular]

I think double jab is pretty gimmicky haha

 

[leffen]

Dude, you're the worst. How the **** else would you know how I think I play, I've never made reference to it in a conversation with you before. You've hardly spoken to me, you ignored me until you beat me at the last tournament and have no interest in playing me.

I posted because I thought m2k's choice of double jab was more than a useless gimmick, maybe it's not I don't even care. I asked your opinion but you just kept telling me how dumb I am.

You're painfully infantile man, one day you'll see this.

sheesh.

I did speak to you for a good bit about your playstyle during ESA, and aside from that I've read multiple posts from you on the boards.

I can't say that I think my hypothesis is wrong either. You obviously took any and every comment about yourself extremely hard.

If you "don't even care" about the thing you came to the thread JUST because you're proven wrong just adds even more ground for what I said.

The only thing you "asked for my opinion on" was

"
Also, yes double jab is a mix up between 1 jab and 2 jabs, it's pretty obvious"

when I had already told you that double jab is not a mixup(which was what the whole point of the post YOU answered)

A double jab is NOT a mixup between 1 jab and 2 jabs. Sheesh, read up please. If you PROPERLY smashDI assuming for two jabs, you'll jump just like normal if he does a single jab (but the falcon has more time to react and sheik has more lag).
Jab 2 is worse in just about every way but against people who don't know about it.
AKA G_I_M_M_I_C_K

with "sheesh, read up" referencing the posts I've made just before that explained exactly what it was.
I didn't even say that you were dumb, I just said that you were inexperienced/had no knowledge. The two are vastly different.
Stop being so ridiculously butthurt over everything. I may be the worst and I apologize for being rude, but you might as well take something from it instead of just whining and flaming me back.

 

[Gahtzu]

Falcon is racist and i can prove it

 

[iRobinhoood]

How is knee --> grab possible?

Are they just dashing to jc grab immediately after the Lcancel meteor knee?