Bust a Move/Puzzle Bobble Mafia..... GAME OVER!

[sneakytako]

Btw if you haven't noticed I already put up my hint.

I hope a town figures it out.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

I know I did. Somebody also asked a bunch of people at the beginning how much experience a bunch of people had, but I actually don't remember if Kantrip was on that list.

Lol, I just went back and looked up that post, and it was you that was asking that **** You didn't ask Kantrip though, obviously.

Kantrip, on the other hand, going hard right out of the gate with a list of reads based solely on people's confirming posts is hella strange.

@Kantrip, how much mafia experience you have?

I, however, did.

 

[sneakytako]

Keep reading JD, I facepalm again later

 

[Riddle]

BarDulL going from this:

@Kantrip - This is your chance to retract your horribad grasping of the Vinyl slot and explain what you were really thinking, otherwise I'm blowing your brains out.

to this:

Kantrip's RVS post was some seriously silly shenanigans and reads to me as Kantrip playing RVS. Kantrip has been playing Mafia long enough to the point where he wouldn't grasp at something as small as a confirm post, doing that is literally the dumbest thing on the planet and luckily for the both of us, Kantrip isn't that stupid.

seems rather inconsistent to me.

@BarDulL: What happened to make your opinion of Kantrip's early game play change so drastically?

 

[BarDulL]

Gambit with bravado, otherwise I would have voted for Kantrip. If Kantrip had kept up his claim of Vinylscum, I sadly would have lynched Kantrip on dumbscum. No, it was just too dumb to be real. Answered that point in my exchange with Kantrip after he retracted.

 

[Jdietz43]

I thought this was kinda obvious, but the point is that he thought he fully understood the role. Clearly, he did not, and he sees that now.

You can't not understand a role you use as evidence in a bullet pointed case this long:

I'm pretty sure we can all confirm that all of us don't have chatterbox. In the unlikely case that you and you alone have chatterbox, I suspect that you would be scum. This is based off of two ideas.

1.) Your initial RVS is all over the place. Spreading suspicion while attacking those that call your method silly is somewhat scummy. You kill two birds with one stone with this approach if you are scum and chatterbox.

2.) In general chatterbox is a scummy power. It is much more unfavorable when scum have to constantly talk, this puts them in more danger than a townie with chatterbox would. Townies need to talk to find scum, scum talking leads to exposing themselves and forces them to play more active.

3.) The way you post seems to collect post counts like crazy, you probably already have like 5 times as many posts as the 4th top poster (haven't bothered to count yet.)

There's no risk for you not posting for 60 posts if you weren't chatterbox, why not accept and clear my suspicions?



Also the reason why I ask three people who aren't me to inflate the post count are two-fold.

1.) I'm V/LA tomorrow.

2.) I want to confirm that I myself am not chatterbox. I do not mind if 3 people have more posts than I do.

I'm not saying lynch you in any means Rake, but if you have chatterbox then I feel ur likely to be scum, why waste an opportunity to get a free Mod-kill?

I'll bet any money he picked this course of action because

1) Look like he was doing something productive and scumhunting
2) Paint suspicion on a slot, making their normal "recourse" of proving they weren't a chatterbox to stop posting entirely for a long time
3) The one thing he failed to notice about the chatterbox restriction is that it isn't used in non OS settings

Yes, he was probably misinformed. But not about chatterbox or who usually gets the role (that he figured out easily enough to make a push), but about the games that it's used in which renders his ammo worthless. It's an important difference.

You don't "forget" about a role that you then claim to have known well enough to quote the idea of a Town Chatterbox as "blasphemous", which is what he's claiming. For you to have a good enough idea of a role to consider something about it's misuse "blasphemous" you'd have to REALLY know the role, and for a long time. We know for certain he has not known about Chatterbox long, as he was unaware of the fact it's a role OS made up.

Logic follows he can't have known all about Chatterbox for a long time (he's new here), and also claim to "forget" that it's not a scum role as well. The idea that he skimmed for roles to use as an RVS tool, found Chatterbox, thought it would work nicely, and didn't realize the caveat he was creating for his SWF mafia knowledge is far more reasonable than the idea what he's saying is true at face value.

 

[Vinylic.]

Did anyone ask Kantrip how much experience he has? o_O;.

Kantrip Kantplay. It's that simple.

Be back at noon.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

You can't not understand a role you use as evidence in a bullet pointed case this long:





I'll bet any money he picked this course of action because

1) Look like he was doing something productive and scumhunting
2) Paint suspicion on a slot, making their normal "recourse" of proving they weren't a chatterbox to stop posting entirely for a long time
3) The one thing he failed to notice about the chatterbox restriction is that it isn't used in non OS settings

Yes, he was probably misinformed. But not about chatterbox or who usually gets the role (that he figured out easily enough to make a push), but about the games that it's used in which renders his ammo worthless. It's an important difference.

You don't "forget" about a role that you then claim to have known well enough to quote the idea of a Town Chatterbox as "blasphemous", which is what he's claiming. For you to have a good enough idea of a role to consider something about it's misuse "blasphemous" you'd have to REALLY know the role, and for a long time. We know for certain he has not known about Chatterbox long, as he was unaware of the fact it's a role OS made up.

Logic follows he can't have known all about Chatterbox for a long time (he's new here), and also claim to "forget" that it's not a scum role as well. The idea that he skimmed for roles to use as an RVS tool, found Chatterbox, thought it would work nicely, and didn't realize the caveat he was creating for his SWF mafia knowledge is far more reasonable than the idea what he's saying is true at face value.

I didn't even bother reading this, because you've obviously missed the main point. Which is that he was 100% wrong about how the role functioned, and pushing a Rake case based on something he knew to be false would be just about the stupidest course of action ever. He obviously did NOT understand the role, and thought he was making a legitimate push. Being dumb =/= scummy

 

[Riddle]

Gambit with bravado, otherwise I would have voted for Kantrip. If Kantrip had kept up his claim of Vinylscum, I sadly would have lynched Kantrip on dumbscum. No, it was just too dumb to be real. Answered that point in my exchange with Kantrip after he retracted.

The term "gambit" has become too vague for me to understand the previous post you made about gambiting Kantrip. Could you please clarify the method and purpose of said gambit?

 

[#HBC | Joker]

The term "gambit" has become too vague for me to understand the previous post you made about gambiting Kantrip. Could you please clarify the method and purpose of said gambit?

The first post you quoted of him saying that he was super confident about Kantrip being scum, was a gambit. He was pretending to be super serious about a Kantrip scumread + shooting him to get a reaction from him.

The second post you quoted was him being done with the gambit, and posting his actual thoughts

 

[#HBC | Joker]

All the shenanigans going on with this game is frustrating, I know. It's getting more and more difficult to follow as the game goes on, because people are making themselves quite difficult to trust.

But I believe that explains the sudden "flip" in his read.

 

[BarDulL]

The term "gambit" has become too vague for me to understand the previous post you made about gambiting Kantrip. Could you please clarify the method and purpose of said gambit?

"Blowing your brains out" would be the bravado; an over extension on my part meant to get a reaction out of Kantrip. Think I linked this to the following post when I said that Kantrip was more deserving of the shot than anyone else.

Otherwise, the thought process lines up perfectly. From what it looks like, I was pretty much giving Kantrip a pass to claim RVS shenanigans because I didn't believe he was making a legitimate accusation of Vinylscum. I mean, when you really think about it, claiming someone as scum off a confirm post is pretty damn silly.

 

[BarDulL]

JD is pulling a Rajam and playing catch up as he reads, so some of his sentiments are outdated.

 

[Riddle]

The first post you quoted of him saying that he was super confident about Kantrip being scum, was a gambit. He was pretending to be super serious about a Kantrip scumread + shooting him to get a reaction from him.

The second post you quoted was him being done with the gambit, and posting his actual thoughts

Please don't answer questions specifically directed to other players. In this case it's mostly harmless, but it's certainly preferable to just allow the person questioned to respond in nearly every imaginable situation.

 

[Riddle]

@BarDulL - Fair enough. Did you believe that you gained anything useful from this "gambit"?

 

[Jdietz43]

We know Tako had a large enough understanding to try and make a scum case (near the start of the game, but a case nonetheless) surrounding the idea of Chatterbox.

One of the questions I still have of the idea of TownTako to those that subscribe to it is his insistence that it was a threat. He didn't ask "Do other people think this is a reasonable thing, I just read about this." which we know is the only possible reality since he is newish. Instead he implied he had enough knowledge that he knew for sure it was so. I'm convinced it was a bid to look informed as scum (with his assumption it was a common thing) while pushing an agenda that would be anti-town (someone not speaking for a long period of time) and simultaneously generating something to look good for in RVS.


When you get right down to it: I'm not really accepting the idea that he legitimately thought Rake could be scum with his Chatterbox ploy. The only acceptable reason would be RVS silliness: but he didn't end up claiming that as his reason. Instead he claimed being misinformed about things he clearly was not misinformed of. His rudimentary understanding of chatterbox alone, even minus all other knowledge, shouldn't have been enough of a reason to accuse Rake of being one if not for scum intent or RVS. He ruled out RVS of his own volition.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

When you get right down to it: I'm not really accepting the idea that he legitimately thought Rake could be scum with his Chatterbox ploy. The only acceptable reason would be RVS silliness: but he didn't end up claiming that as his reason. Instead he claimed being misinformed about things he clearly was not misinformed of. His rudimentary understanding of chatterbox alone, even minus all other knowledge, shouldn't have been enough of a reason to accuse Rake of being one if not for scum intent or RVS. He ruled out RVS of his own volition.

This is just where you are wrong. Obviously he was misinformed, because claiming that Chatterbox is a 100% scum role (when it's actually a 100% town role), on purpose, does not make sense.

It would attract exactly the kind of suspicion you are putting on him right now, and if he was the mastermind you seem to think he is, he'd obviously know that. In reality, the only logical explanation is that he, in fact, didn't understand the role, and made a stupid play.

 

[BarDulL]

@BarDulL - Fair enough. Did you believe that you gained anything useful from this "gambit"?

Kinda. Kantrip reacted to my overextension with a call out which was mostly expected, followed by a "how could you not have the sense to realize I wasn't being serious," which is a legitimate OMGUS considering I've been playing for 9~ months seriously now.

It tasted like strawberries.

 

[Jdietz43]

I didn't even bother reading this, because you've obviously missed the main point. Which is that he was 100% wrong about how the role functioned, and pushing a Rake case based on something he knew to be false would be just about the stupidest course of action ever. He obviously did NOT understand the role, and thought he was making a legitimate push. Being dumb =/= scummy

Joker: How was Tako 100% wrong on how the role functioned?


@Bardull: I'm caught up now. I'm not a big fan of the Mason claim, specifically the reluctance to ask a mod if it was a true masonry or not. Bub (the main character of our flavor) as a mason (a role in it's purest form which is a mostly confirmed town) sounds too convenient of a role to dodge the chopping block with. That said I clearly had a bone to pick with Tako this game already, so I'm not surprised I'm not impressed.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Please don't answer questions specifically directed to other players. In this case it's mostly harmless, but it's certainly preferable to just allow the person questioned to respond in nearly every imaginable situation.

I keep seeing him as offline (as well as everyone else it seems, now that I look at it), so I thought I'd clear it up for you as quickly as possible since I happened to know the answer.

 

[Jdietz43]

Nvm I see you answered how you thought he was misinformed.

That's not being misinformed about how the role functions though, moreso what its history is, something I already think he didn't know or he wouldn't have done what he did as either alignment. He clearly understood what the role's mechanics were well enough however. The idea I'm working with is that he did not know its history, which was his downfall, but did know the base mechanics and assumed it was a normal role he could use to break into the game with. His contradictions, the reasoning he first brought it up, and his changing accounts of what he did and did not know are what set off flags for scumTako.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Joker: How was Tako 100% wrong on how the role functioned?


@Bardull: I'm caught up now. I'm not a big fan of the Mason claim, specifically the reluctance to ask a mod if it was a true masonry or not. Bub (the main character of our flavor) as a mason (a role in it's purest form which is a mostly confirmed town) sounds too convenient of a role to dodge the chopping block with. That said I clearly had a bone to pick with Tako this game already, so I'm not surprised I'm not impressed.

Well ok, he wasn't technically wrong on the fuction of the role, but he was wrong that it was designed for scum, and was a 100% scum role.

Also, he wasn't reluctant to ask the mod. He did ask the mod. He was reluctant to believe that asking the mod was necessary. In the end, he must have decided it was better safe than sorry. He mentioned it somewhere that he did contact john2k4.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Nvm I see you answered how you thought he was misinformed.

That's not being misinformed about how the role functions though, moreso what its history is, something I already think he didn't know or he wouldn't have done what he did as either alignment. He clearly understood what the role's mechanics were well enough however. The idea I'm working with is that he did not know its history, which was his downfall, but did know the base mechanics and assumed it was a normal role he could use to break into the game with. His contradictions, the reasoning he first brought it up, and his changing accounts of what he did and did not know are what set off flags for scumTako.

The thing is, if he had researched the role enough to know that it even existed, then he'd have to know that it was a role that was given to town. It only exists on SWF, and it's only been a town role. The fact that he didn't know this, just means that he didn't research it all that well.

In the end, what this means is that he thought he had Rake on something that he thought was legitimate, due to ignorance. Him making an ignorant play, doesn't mean he's scum. It doesn't mean he's town, but it doesn't mean he's scum. All it means, is that he was wrong. Townies are wrong literally all the time.

 

[Jdietz43]

He did, but after how many people asked him? He first asserted it wasn't a good step.

This in particular is what I disliked most:

Why do you care if I PM John? I could lie about it and tell him he confirmed anyway.

I'm going with Rake/Bardul scum right now, they are trying to get me to slip by not trusting my partner.

@Riddle: That's an awesome idea, I'll make a cypher to reveal later.

If he was Town and there was a chance that the person he thought was confirmed Town with him was not confirmed: why would he ever feel the need to lie about the results of asking for clarification?

As town you would be very much wanting to let the rest of town know whether the person you're in communication with can be trusted or not for later (as well as know yourself). There's no town intent in lying about it, he'd be asking the mod right away upon hearing that it was questionable and he could simply ask and receive. You would want town to be able to be sure of your mason partner if you die and flip town mason.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

What I'm trying to say is that if we assume he's scum, and he was going after Rake so he could mislynch him in RVS (a laughable concept in itself), it still makes him wrong about the alignment typically associated with Chatterbox. Since him being wrong about the alignment is literally the only issue, it doesn't make any more sense as a scum play than it does as a town play. At the end of the day, all it is, is lack of research. That by itself, is Null.

I'ma stop talking about this now, because if you don't get it by now, you'll never get it...

 

[Jdietz43]

Unfortunately him being wrong about alignment isn't the only issue, it's actually the least important of the issues. We don't have to assume he was trying to lynch Rake in RVS for it to have scum intent, he could be simply trying to look productive in RVS while possibly getting Rake to quiet down, in fact I highly doubt a lynch was the end goal in the case of ScumTako.

The thing is, if he had researched the role enough to know that it even existed, then he'd have to know that it was a role that was given to town. It only exists on SWF, and it's only been a town role. The fact that he didn't know this, just means that he didn't research it all that well.

Not so, as we've already clearly seen that he has done so. He couldn't have known of the role without research, yet insisted it was a scum role. I see more scum intent in that reaching case than town.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

He may have been more concerned with his partner's perception of him, than with his perception of his partner. At the time he posted that, he was getting pushed. I dunno, I guess I could agree with you, but I'm inclined to think he was just frazzled. The fact that he was so surprised to learn that Town/Mafia Mason partners was even a possibility makes me think he would have to be the Town Mason. If he was the Scum Mason, in that instance, he'd know that his partner was town.

 

[Jdietz43]

Problem is you're also assuming he's actually a Mason at all. Equally likely is simply him realizing claiming Mason wasn't a surefire get out of suspicion free claim.


A good rule of Mafia is you're truly worried about you yourself mostly if you're scum. The idea that his mason may have second thoughts about his alignment shouldn't be the first problem he thinks about as town, you check the other person before you prove yourself and the town play follows... because you're actually town.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Not so, as we've already clearly seen that he has done so. He couldn't have known of the role without research, yet insisted it was a scum role. I see more scum intent in that reaching case than town.

We're just going in circles here. If he knew what he was doing, then you're saying that he was making a false claim about the role's alignment on purpose. That would not be a smart thing to do as scum, because it attracts exactly this kind of attention. It would require him to be far far dumber than him just getting a simple piece of information wrong, because it implies that he's being dumb on purpose. Unless you're just arguing that he's dumbashellscum. I'm more inclined to believe regulardumbtown

 

[Jdietz43]

I think he knew what he was doing insisting it was a scum-tell, whether he actually knew claiming so was hollow is up for debate. It's the why that matters.



Now is the part where you go: "My god! This man is a brick wall..." lol. I know I'm being adamant about this despite what you think is the most likely case (and it's not entirely out of the question), but I believe the opposite is true and worth investigating heavily as there are scum intent counter-points to his actions you haven't distinguished yet.

 

[Shun Goku Satsu Rake]

Basically everything JD has said recently sums up why i was pushing tako so hard

 

[Shun Goku Satsu Rake]

one that is giving me pause is the fact that tako seemed to be surprised by the idea of unaligned masons, something which would not surprise him as scum in a masonry with a town player, because of course then he would know that they were unconfirmed alignments and that his partner was town.

 

[#HBC | marshy]

Day One:

Kantrip (2): PrivateJoker, BSP
sneakytako (1): JDietz43
PrivateJoker(3): Kantrip, BarBell, Anomandaris_Rake

Not Voting (6): Red Ruy, ToasterBrains, 194, Riddle, SneakyTako, Vinyl

Deadline is set to: September 21st, 11:59PM MST

 

[Shun Goku Satsu Rake]

Lol, just realized I still had this tab open and saw this crazy talk of chatterbox. Tako, why assume Rake has chatterbox restriction? Go read a game with him in it, you'll see this is how he always posts XD

That's such a left field accusation to make, why are you painting Rake in a bad light?

Why no benefit of the doubt ?

Believe me, I'm as confused about how he came to that conclusion as you are. But it boils down to him just not understanding the role. If Tako was scum, it still doesn't make sense for him to assume chatterbox = scum. Regardless of his alignment, all it means is that he's dumb

If you thought he was being dumb, why did you have the above saying he was attempting to paint me in a bad light?

Which is still null, it's only telling of the fact that he's dumb

I do have to agree that it seemed like he was stretching to make it seem scummy. It was either scum trying to force a lynch (which would be pretty risky with nothing but that to go on), or it was just over eagerness.

Why are you backing off him in this fashion ?
Also, why did you assume that his first priority was to get a lynch out of it and not to just throw suspicion around to distract town ?

Wait, wtf my mason partner can be scum? That's not possible right?

This is what i was referring to wrt tako being surprised.

Why do you care if I PM John? I could lie about it and tell him he confirmed anyway.

I'm going with Rake/Bardul scum right now, they are trying to get me to slip by not trusting my partner.

@Riddle: That's an awesome idea, I'll make a cypher to reveal later.

Underlined: Why would you ever even consider that as a town role at all ?
It is excessively scummy not to check up on something you don't fully understand, and if he is un-confirmed and you lie about it, you may be giving scum a free pass to ride out the res of the game on that.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Why no benefit of the doubt ?
benefit of the doubt on what? That he was just making a silly mistake? It just didn't look like it at first glance.



If you thought he was being dumb, why did you have the above saying he was attempting to paint me in a bad light?
The above post obviously came before this one. I changed my opinion after giving it more thought.



Why are you backing off him in this fashion ?
Also, why did you assume that his first priority was to get a lynch out of it and not to just throw suspicion around to distract town ?
How would it be distracting to town? If he was scum, doing what he did is literally the opposite of distracting the town from finding scum, because he's drawing an awful lot of attention to himself, as well as you. All it did was give town something to look at, which is called information, not a distraction.



This is what i was referring to wrt tako being surprised.
I have the same opinion about it. I mentioned it earlier.

responses in red

 

[sneakytako]

JD, understand this though.

I never said to lynch Rake. If I was to assume that Rake was chatterbox, I thought it was 100% likely to be scum at first, then my confidence went down when Rake proposed the idea that chatterbox could be scum. When I first read the description of chatterbox I thought for sure this would be a scum power. My idea was if Rake was chatterbox then he would be scum, so we could just smoke him out by posting a ton and get a free read.

I still think there's a small possibility he has chatterbox, but now I know that modkilling him doesn't mean we kill scum.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

If Rake has chatterbox, then you should go buy a lottery ticket because there's no way you could have even guessed that based on this game. Rake is literally always this active. I'd be more concerned about him having a posting restriction if he wasn't so active.

 

[sneakytako]

I mean, even if he posts this much all the time, the fact that he does post often leaves the possibility of him being chatterbox.

So, would anyone like to CC? Can I assume that no one will CC?

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Anything is possible, but like I said if it turns out Rake has chatterbox, it means you have some kind of gift that you should be using for more important stuff than guessing mafia roles on swf.

 

[Shun Goku Satsu Rake]

It's almost like you guys don't want to understand what me and Bardull have been telling you.