Buffing characters using codes - let's discuss.

[Alopex]

**This IS NOT a discussion for nerfs. Because nerfs make people angry and will cause this thread to go down as a humongous flame war if people start arguing over what needs to be nerfed and what doesn't. SO NO NERF TALK. We're here to BUFF characters, to make characters more viable.**



We're taking Brawl into our own hands, and it's only a matter of time before we begin delving into this part of Brawl+, so I figured we should go ahead and get a discussion started on what needs to be done to what character in order to bring them up.


As you suggest your ideas, please to keep the realms of possibility and balance in mind. Codes can't do everything.

There are things that you won't be able to add to a character, things that would require too many lines of coding, or things that would cause game freezes. In general, buffing damage, knockback, and range of moves is something we should try avoiding... for now.

Also, keep it balanced. Don't go suggesting that the Falcon Punch should come out on frame 1. Think about the overall game with your suggestions, not just about making your favorite character uber 133t pwnage. With that, it would be ideal if your suggestions were backed up with your reasoning as to why that change should be implemented.


So let me get this started.



~CODES THAT ARE NEEDED (and should be possible) TO HELP BUFF THE ROSTER:~


Note that some characters are unfortunately too gimped out to be fixed by any amount of coding. Some codes can still help them, but even this help wouldn't do much to their tier position. Still, any help is good for those characters, so any helpful code, even if it's not overly useful, should be considered for suggestion.


Pokemon Trainer:
- No more stamina
- No forced switching upon death
(These are both seen as the biggest flaws of the character, and are the only things preventing someone from maining just one of the Pokemon as they would with Sheik or Zelda.)
- Let Ivysaur use his UpB more than once, like ZSS. (Needed recovery boost to prevent extreme gimpage.)

Link:
- Let Link attack his own bombs (He can't do this, for some reason. Even if you throw one bomb up and then throw another, they don't clash. Letting him attack his own bombs, thus exploding them, would give him a much better recovery. I would *NOT* give this to TL, though, since he doesn't need the recovery boost and this creates more difference between then clones - but that's debatable and I would still be fine with both Links having it.)

Olimar:
- Let him use his UpB more than once, like ZSS. (Needed recovery boost to prevent extreme gimpage.)

Samus:
- Don't know if it's possible, but making her bombs explode on proximity again would be ideal. (Timed-based explosions make the bombs pretty useless outside of recovery. You can't even rain them down on the opponent since they just fall right through the character without exploding.)

Zelda:
- Let her DI immediately after reappearing with her UpB. (Minor recovery boost that won't really do much, but would still be helpful.)
- SideB in the air shouldn't put her in helpless animation. (This would be a recovery boost for her since the Din's Fire does give horizontal momentum. Overall though, it would mainly be an anti-gimping tool, helping her OoS defense - which is something she is quite lacking.)

Sheik:
- Let her DI immediately after reappearing with her UpB. (Minor recovery boost that won't really do much, but would still be helpful.)

Wolf:
- Let him DI immediately after his UpB (Won't do much for his recovery anyway, so might as well give it to him too.)

Lucas:
- PKT shouldn't put him in helpless animation unless he hits himself with it. In other words, only PKT2 should cause freefall. (Minor recovery boost, but it also makes this attack more viable as an OoS offense. PKT and PKT2 are registered differently, so this modification should be very possible.)

Ness:
- PKT shouldn't put him in helpless animation unless he hits himself with it. In other words, only PKT2 should cause freefall. (In Ness's case, this is a needed recovery boost, as his PKT is too easily gimped otherwise. Like Lucas, would also make the attack more viable as an OoS offense, just not as effective as Lucas's PKT. PKT and PKT2 are registered differently, so this modification should be very possible.)

Ike:
- Hitting someone with the SideB in the air shouldn't put him in the helpless animation. (A recovery boost to make that move less easily gimped. Just being in front of him is a viable counter as it stands.)

Captain Falcon:
- Hitting someone with the SideB in the air shouldn't put him in the helpless animation. (Makes the move a more viable recovery option.)

Yoshi
- SideB shouldn't put him in the helpless animation. (This move can be a death sentence because of this and it doesn't do anything to make it deserving of such a severe punishment. It would also make it more viable for recovery use, though not much.)

 

[Kiki52]

Make Ness be able to use upB more than once. If someone eats his recovery, then Ness should be able to do PK Thunder again and again and not go into a helpless state afterwards. This should help Ness when it comes to being gimped.

Also, if it is possible make Ness instead of falling when he got grabbed by a tall character like Marth or Charizard, he should appear on the ground instantly when he does a ground break afterwards so he slides backwards more and immediately when let go. I don't know if such a code would exist to force Ness to appear on the ground instantly instead of falling down when let go by a pummel grab. But if that were to happen that would be good. This would help stop infinites.

 

[Flayl]

I think giving Bowser's DAir super armor would be all that's really needed (for Bowser). It has enough start-up lag and ending lag for it not to be a significant threat.

 

[Revven]

Make Ness be able to use upB more than once. If someone eats his recovery, then Ness should be able to do PK Thunder again and again and not go into a helpless state afterwards. This should help Ness when it comes to being gimped.

Or just make Ness' PK Thunder like Lucas' except retain the same length and curvyness.

Also, not EVERYONE can be buffed, I mean they can but, you wouldn't be able to fit all the buffs unless they were very short codes.

Captain Falcon: Knee always sweetspots or has the same window as Melee's knee. Honestly? This is all I'd want aside from more priority in his attacks.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Link - just make the recovery boosted overall.

I know for fact his recovery is momentum based, and so gravity affects it. I think (not certain) it multiplies his momentum upwards a certain amount.... if we could make it do I dunno 1.5 of what it's doing now and give him bomb jumping...he'd be set.
Only the Up B doesn't break the bombs...the D-air does for some reason =P (thats a comment).

Yoshi - Egg roll Priority and his ^B needs to have a less drastic decrease, well it doesn't need to since his recovery is pretty boss (relatively) but still.

Ganondorf - Murder kick needs to come out at an earlier frame.
If you can increase his running speed ...woot?
U -tilt...can we increase the wind effect? that be great >.>
so recap for Ganondorf (because I lost my train of thought)

-Murder kick earlier frames
- Faster running speed (slightly, if possible)
- U-tilt, better wind (for surfing =P)
- F-air, less landing lag please
- B-air....Less knock back...so we can kinda string something together at least
Dark Dive - Can that thing give more knockback or something ? The punch is too unreliable....it be nice if you could actually KO, or atleast gimp suitably with the grab thing.

Falcon - Give stun on all his moves and he is the cool >.>

 

[leafgreen386]

Brawl+ is not about changing specific characters. It's about changing the general gameplay to be more deep. We only get 256 lines of code, which is almost at its limit as is. Tether recoveries in general are the only thing that might get reworked, but in all likelihood, nothing you suggest here will get used.

 

[Alopex]

Giving attacks hitstun, removing lag, making them come out faster, modifying knockback, giving more priority... all that is too drastic.

Giving Ganon's UpTilt more wind, though, maybe. I haven't seen any code that deals with winds of attacks.
Letting Ness and Lucas reuse their PKT unless they pull off a PKT2, that also seems doable. It's just another helpless animation change.

Sweetspot window on aerials might actually be doable, though. The only question then becomes "Who gets it?". Do we give it to Ness and Zelda too? These are balance issues we need to look at before we make such low-% kill moves stronger.

Brawl+ is not about changing specific characters. It's about changing the general gameplay to be more deep. We only get 256 lines of code, which is almost at its limit as is. Tether recoveries in general are the only thing that might get reworked, but in all likelihood, nothing you suggest here will get used.

That's why I'm suggesting little things, mainly things that have to do with DI and helpless animation. We've already seen codes that modify when a character enters freefall, it's a vital part of the Melee Air Dodge code. So removing the helpless animations from the proposed moves shouldn't be too far off.

I agree with you, though, and that's why I said we should suggest little things.

Yes, we have only 256 lines of code, but if we don't use L-cancel, Melee airdodge, and etc, then we can choose to instead fill up those lines with character-changing codes.

Essentially, we'd keep Brawl as it is, except change characters only, instead of complete mechanics like the airdodge.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

ya because personally I wouldn't use Melee airdodge with hitsun code so eh I'd prefer other things.

 

[MasterWarlord]

Captain Falcon:
-More Priority in all his attacks
-The Knee is much easier to sweetspot, to the level it was in Melee
-Give him back his recovery with Falcon Kick from Melee
-Give him super armor on Falcon Punch
-Give Falcon Kick less ending lag

Ganondorf:
-Increase Grab Range
-Give him back his recovery with Warlock Kick from Melee
-Give Warlock Kick less ending lag
-Give him super armor on Warlock Punch
-Increase speed of all his smash attacks

Pokemon Trainer:
-Removal of Fatigue System
-No Forced Switching upon being KOd
-Give Charizard a couple extra jumps/make his current ones go higher
-Give Charizard more range on his aerials and smashes as well as more priority
-Stregthen Ivysaur's jumps significantly and allow him to use his up special multiple times
-Decrease lag slightly on Ivysaur's usmash, uair, and dair.
-Increase distance Squirtle's up special travels.

 

[MasterCheeze]

Good stuff. Simply improving a bunch of characters' recoveries will save a good deal of them (especially Ness and Lucas/somewhat).

How about Samus's missiles not canceling when she hits the ground? They should work just like her Charge Shot.

 

[Greenpoe]

Brawl+ is not about changing specific characters. It's about changing the general gameplay to be more deep. We only get 256 lines of code, which is almost at its limit as is. Tether recoveries in general are the only thing that might get reworked, but in all likelihood, nothing you suggest here will get used.

...so, hackers can make wavedashing with that much but can't make simple buffs? Weird.

 

[leafgreen386]

Did you even read what I said? We'll probably end up having to cut some of the codes we were planning on using as it is. The problem isn't them not being able to make it. The problem is that there just isn't enough room for the codes. There are only 256 lines of code we're able to use. TOTAL. Not per code. We can have no more than 256 lines of code combined. Even if you used no other codes, you probably couldn't include all the character buffs you're talking about. Just let this thread die. Character buffs like these are incredibly insignificant compared to everything else that is being discussed, and they are the very LAST thing anyone would even think about.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I definately have to add some things about Mario to this:

Make Mario's bthrow kill 30% sooner.

Make it take longer to fully charge up the FLUDD but also make it more powerful and give it a longer spray duration.

Make Mario's coin jump (b up) travel farther both vertically and horizontally.

Make Mario's dash attack and fair have less ending lag.

Make the cape as effective at air stalling as Fox's reflector and give it a longer range.

Make Mario's pummel faster.

Give Mario a slightly longer grab range.

@ above post:

Lighten up; this is a good "what if" topic for this board.

 

[Collective of Bears]

Give Falcon his old knee back, of course.

 

[Conclusively]

Make Falcon's whole body a sweetspot for the knee.

 

[shaSLAM]

lol make charecter's catch on fire when they get kneed by c. falcon. :]


</crappiest suggestion on boards>

 

[Alopex]

Did you even read what I said? We'll probably end up having to cut some of the codes we were planning on using as it is. The problem isn't them not being able to make it. The problem is that there just isn't enough room for the codes. There are only 256 lines of code we're able to use. TOTAL. Not per code. We can have no more than 256 lines of code combined. Even if you used no other codes, you probably couldn't include all the character buffs you're talking about. Just let this thread die. Character buffs like these are incredibly insignificant compared to everything else that is being discussed, and they are the very LAST thing anyone would even think about.

The reason why you're going to have to cut on codes as it is is because the Melee airdodge code takes a whopping 87 lines, while the L-cancel code takes 54. Combined, they take up over half the line space.

Most of the things I've listed on my OP are easily doable within 256 lines. The "most" that I'm referring to is the removal of the helpless animation caused by some attacks.

It's such a simple mechanic to change that there's no way you're going to come here and tell me that it would take up more than 256 lines to implement the ones in my OP.

I don't understand why this topic upsets you. If all you want is a Melee ruleset, then go discuss it elsewhere and stop trolling this thread.

Not everyone wants a Melee ruleset but a lot of people have those little things they wish they could change about their characters. And those little things are perfectly within the scope of hacking.

You'll note that I made a point, in my OP, that we should stick to suggesting little things. Because I'm fully aware of the limitations of hacking.

 

[Starscream]

The reason why you're going to have to cut on codes as it is is because the Melee airdodge code takes a whopping 87 lines, while the L-cancel code takes 54. Combined, they take up over half the line space.

Most of the things I've listed on my OP are easily doable within 256 lines. The "most" that I'm referring to is the removal of the helpless animation caused by some attacks.

It's such a simple mechanic to change that there's no way you're going to come here and tell me that it would take up more than 256 lines to implement the ones in my OP.

I don't understand why this topic upsets you. If all you want is a Melee ruleset, then go discuss it elsewhere and stop trolling this thread.

Not everyone wants a Melee ruleset but a lot of people have those little things they wish they could change about their characters. And those little things are perfectly within the scope of hacking.

You'll note that I made a point, in my OP, that we should stick to suggesting little things. Because I'm fully aware of the limitations of hacking.

Things like L-canceling, hit stun and wavedashing (albeit not the crazy overpowered one we have right now) are going to help Brawl as a whole and in turn these characters a lot more than tweaking these small individual things.

Good luck finding a hacker to tweak all the things listed. I really think they'd much rather spend their time bettering the game as a whole rather than just a few characters while retaining the flawed old Brawl.

 

[Kennahh]

-Make Link's (grounded) Spin Attack hit after it is blocked, even if it is blocked once, it should be able to hit again, it is quite punishable even in that form, through long ranged moves.
-Make Link slightly faster.
-Allow Link to bomb recover. (however at decreased bomb knockback, you could have a really beastly recovery with the current bomb knockback)
Link isn't a bad character on the stage, but once he get's off, he's crushed. This makes his stage game the little boost it needs in the short range, and out of shield play, while still giving him the recovery option he desperately needs.

 

[Fletch]

Things like L-canceling, hit stun and wavedashing (albeit not the crazy overpowered one we have right now) are going to help Brawl as a whole and in turn these characters a lot more than tweaking these small individual things.

Good luck finding a hacker to tweak all the things listed. I really think they'd much rather spend their time bettering the game as a whole rather than just a few characters while retaining the flawed old Brawl.

This should be the end of the thread. It's not going to happen.

 

[thesage]

I'm not really for the boosting of only certain characters but the Ness suggestions sound nice.

 

[Alopex]

Things like L-canceling, hit stun and wavedashing (albeit not the crazy overpowered one we have right now) are going to help Brawl as a whole and in turn these characters a lot more than tweaking these small individual things.

Good luck finding a hacker to tweak all the things listed. I really think they'd much rather spend their time bettering the game as a whole rather than just a few characters while retaining the flawed old Brawl.

All your adjectives are subjective, based on how one feels about the game.

Believe it or not, there are plenty of people who are perfectly fine with Brawl mechanics, but not fine with character balance.

How will balancing the roster out NOT make Brawl a better game?

Everything else you're listing will simply make Brawl+. Brawl+ vs Brawl is a matter of opinion.
Making Brawl+ doesn't mean you're making Brawl better, it means you're making a different Brawl, a different game. If YOU think that's better, that's cool. Not everyone does.

Changing character balance and nothing else only makes Brawl better. Because it's still Brawl, except with a more balanced roster.

So what is the problem?

 

[Scott!]

I'm no hacker, so I don't know how feasible this is, but if it could work, I have a suggestion.

It seems that a big part of this debate is the 256 line max. Since it seems everyone has different ideas on what they want in their version of Brawl+, maybe the hackers could just create a frame for the hack, and each separate feature separately, so people can pick and choose what they want. They could just copy and paste the buffs, or wavedashing, or whatever bits they want added, and be happy. Then there's no complaining about what to include.

Again, I don't have much idea how feasible this is, or how much work it would entail. Just throwing it out there as a possibility to think about.

 

[M15t3R E]

I'm no hacker, so I don't know how feasible this is, but if it could work, I have a suggestion.

It seems that a big part of this debate is the 256 line max. Since it seems everyone has different ideas on what they want in their version of Brawl+, maybe the hackers could just create a frame for the hack, and each separate feature separately, so people can pick and choose what they want. They could just copy and paste the buffs, or wavedashing, or whatever bits they want added, and be happy. Then there's no complaining about what to include.

Again, I don't have much idea how feasible this is, or how much work it would entail. Just throwing it out there as a possibility to think about.

Uhh...
If we follow your suggestion, there will be hundreds of different versions of Brawl, each with characters modded differently. How well do you think that would translate into the future of Brawl as a competitive, tournament-worthy, game? Not too well, my friend.
Case in point, there HAS to be one unified new Brawl for which compromises are made. I don't even know if that is feasible, though.

 

[MasterWarlord]

I know this topic isn't about nerfs, but I've heard of a hack where somebody made Snake lighter and made his tilts do less damage, so it's confirmed those two properties are hackable. Just FYI, guys.

Some people wern't around for Melee yet still want to play Brawl competetively. Sorry that we don't want your broken wave dashing and L canceling yet still want a more balanced game.

How hard would it be to remove chain grabs? I believe we can all agree on that, and this is coming from a D3 mainer.

 

[hippyman69]

make it so that kirby's hammer is an OHKO. falcon punch should destroy the game. make lucas cover the screen with pk fiyahs, as well as this, he must say 'pk fiyah!' with each pk fiyah he does.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

i dislike the melee knee >.> I like the brawl Knee...because I can get it off >.> (before you go omfg, how can you not get off melee knee...I rarely used Falcon but in Brawl the knee was easy to get off without any practice).

 

[TVTMaster]

Good luck finding a hacker to tweak all the things listed. I really think they'd much rather spend their time bettering the game as a whole rather than just a few characters while retaining the flawed old Brawl.

Flawed old Brawl? Brawl is very different from Melee, and Melee was good. But Brawl is good in a different way- it's about who knows their character well enough and knows how to fight well enough that they can dominate move-by-move instead of combo-by-combo, and learning to win without simply inputing a sequence of buttons after the first hit connects. Brawl requires more thinking and less frantic fingerwork, and who says there's anything wrong with that? Rebalancing characters is a way better solution for those who love Brawl's gameplay mechanics (which I know I do).

 

[poklin]

sorry all brawl requires is for you to play metaknight end of story.

 

[Scott!]

Uhh...
If we follow your suggestion, there will be hundreds of different versions of Brawl, each with characters modded differently. How well do you think that would translate into the future of Brawl as a competitive, tournament-worthy, game? Not too well, my friend.
Case in point, there HAS to be one unified new Brawl for which compromises are made. I don't even know if that is feasible, though.

Ah. I forgot this was about finding a new Brawl for competition. I just figured that this was for personal enjoyment. My bad. I don't play competitively, so I don't look at it from that perspective all the time. I just figured, since everybody has different things they want, let them figure out what they want changed. I do see where that wouldn't be great for competition, though.

 

[HeroMystic]

Make Mario's bthrow kill 30% sooner.

Hell... yes....

 

[MasterWarlord]

Since when did middle tier characters (Mario) need buffs? The goal should be for everyone to be in mid tier, not high tier.

 

[HeroMystic]

Mario is a low tier, so I dunno what you're saying.

 

[MasterWarlord]

Mario is low? Guess I haven't studied the SmashBoards tier list enough to commit it to memory. The tier list GameFaqs uses is very different, so I may still have some of that nonsense stuck in my head. I'm just amazed Bowser is middle on this tier list while Mario's still low. . .

If we really have that limited of code though, the characters who should get the buffs should be bottoms, and it'd benefit everyone if there were nerfs given ones at the top, at least MK, Snake, and D3. . .

 

[HeroMystic]

Eh, I'd rather have everyone broken and equal, rather than everyone balanced and equal.

 

[Iamthemovie]

I would like a Crouch Cancelling Code.

 

[Eten]

You'd never get a widely accepted balance code, because you'd never have everyone with the same perspective on who needs improvements and who doesn't. Some people even think infinites and chain grabs belong...

 

[UltiMario]

Increase the Power of all of Captain Falcon's Moves by 1% each hit, Return the Nipple Spike, and fix the Knee Sweetspot.

There, Captain Falcon is good again.

 

[Akiak]

I know you guys don't want to exaggerate with the buffing and all but just for fun, it would be cool to do some crazy stuff:

Lucas Up-B PK Thunder should launch foes just like it launches the user. So you can hit a foe from above while he's off-stage to launch him down to his doom... That would be cool.

Or how about if you can grab in the air?

The baseball bat swing comes out on the 1st frame...

Mr. Saturn launches foes super high

Yoshi's Egg roll should be much faster

Or you can stay in the down-dodge for as long as you want?

Also, this sounds really hard to do and is probably impossible but what if you can create side-scrolling stages?

And something i've always wanted to do is that you can grab and throw your team mate with out him getting hurt but what if you can actually use your team mate as a weapon and throw him at foes? That would be a great technique.

 

[MuBa]

I have a feeling that the crouch cancel code will go along the lines with having super armor frames when crouching to a certain percent....I bet that's how the alpha version would be like.