"Brother from another MOTHER". Lucas Smash Ultimate Discussion thread.

DEMONIC

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#82
I mained Lucas back in Brawl and he feels similar here but better. In Smash 4, I felt like he was changed so much I couldn't wrap my head around him naturally so I mained Ness, but here I feel that way about Ness and Lucas feels like coming back home. Loving those aerials and PK Freeze. Barely lost a match at our local launch party, so I have no idea how viable he will be as the meta develops but it's feeling good.
 
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#84
You guys might want to check this out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjqlyfP1xKM

I've had the feeling that Lucas isn't as bad as he's made out to be, just from the fact that most "bad" characters actually have interesting stuff to keep them the bottom levels of previous smash games. I don't have the game yet, so I can't check to see how much of this is real, but Lucas seems to have just traded a lot of things statistically. Nair and grab aren't quite as good, but his other moves pick up the slack.

There's some other weird stuff to theory-craft and test from what I'm seeing.
1) Falling up-air combos into stuff
2) Bair's weak hit looks to be able to do a sketchy wall of pain type thing off-stage.
3) At super high percents Lucas can string zair of all things into itself.
4) Back throw has a low angle, so PK fire might be able to force a jump or air-dodge.
5) Jump-canceled magnet stalling? I don't really know if that helps with anything, but maybe.
6) Lucas might not want to use specials much in neutral, at least compared to smash 4. They seem more tuned for use in advantage.

At least, that's what I'm seeing so far.
 

PKBeam

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#85
(SH)PKF in neutral is about as good as it's ever been and with Zair's range nerf, it becomes more important as a safe zoning tool.

You can even chuck out a few Freezes in neutral now. It's always been difficult to punish but now there's a big reward for landing it.

Both PKF and Freeze will kill as well, something they've never done reliably in Brawl or Smash 4.
 

Luigifan18

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#86
I just had a lying-in-bed thought about Lucas. The ultimate goal of Mother 3 is to awaken the Dark Dragon... so, without Porky being in the game, Lucas's Classic Mode boss should have been Rathalos.
 

Zafarfro

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#87
I was a big Lucas main in Brawl (didn't get DLC for Smash 4) and after playing Lucas in Smash Ultimate, I think this is the best he has ever been. I'm just so happy to have so much Earthbound/Mother representation in this game.
 

Luxent

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#88
Im seriously loving Lucas in this game!!

He so much fun, and PK Freeze is friggen NASTY when you land it. I've killed people at 80% who cant even break out of the ice.
Naturally, Im having some trouble with the neutral game.
 

Kevandre

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#89
PK Freeze is worthwhile for the first time. He was my MVP through my World of Light run as well, by a significant margin. Not having as much success with him online but I think Lucas is a monster. I saw a tier list putting him on D Tier and just laughed
 

Cheryl~

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#90
Goddamn, Lucas feels so clean to play as for me in this game. All of his specials are useful now with PK Freeze being buffed to usability, especially against characters with linear recoveries offstage. PK Fire having kill power can lead to some sick snipes offstage and just makes it more of a threatening move than just a spacing tool. Falling Up-Air comboing into itself makes for easy combos against big-bodies and is just a great option in general. His combo game outside of grabs still seems to be fairly solid, especially with dragdown N-Air into U-Tilt being a sick combo starter at basically every percent. (And it can lead into a U-Tilt kill at like, 180% on Battlefield, at least from what I've done in the lab against Mario). He honestly feels way more fun to play as than in Smash 4, as he can now play a more offensive game with his aerials and edgeguarding instead of having to rely on grab combos, and this is coming from someone who really loved Smash 4 Lucas. I know a lot of people are downplaying him just because of D-Throw losing it's combos, but honestly Lucas seems like a sleeper pick now with the buffs he got to basically every other part of his moveset. Combine that with his edgeguarding game being improved with the mechanic changes and I feel that this iteration is going to be the best he's ever been. :ultlucas:for life!
 

GhotiTheFish

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#91
I am absolutely loving Lucas in SSBU. His hard hitting arials and pretty good combo games is super fun. Took me a bit to shake my double jump canceling habits since I am coming from Melee and PM but he is definitely my favorite character in the game. His Fair feels so satisfying to hit and the Bair spikes will never not be satisfying. This is the first smash game (other than PM which I only played for fun, not competetively) that I have to really worry about patches. Can’t wait to lab this character more because he just seems straight up schnasty on the offensive which is perfect for my play style. Haven’t used much PK Freeze yet but considering how you guys are hyping it up I will have to try it. The couple of times I have landed it of stage, it was devastating. I love that there is edge guarding in this game!
 

Rakurai

Smash Ace
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#92
Pk Freeze being able to go below the ledge a fair bit as well as through drop-through platforms makes it a heck of a lot more usable then it was in Smash 4.

Out of everything that was changed in Lucas' kit, I find myself making the most use of it since it's very low risk but with high reward now.
 

Xebenkeck

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#94
Kinda not competetive related but.

I really liked that galeem’s and dharkon’s final spirit’s in world of light before fighting them were Hinawa and Claus respectively. On top of that the spirit you unlock for completing world of light was The Masked Man.

Essentially the last three spirits in WoL you get were from mother 3.

Considering all the nintendo/gaming characters out there, that they prioritized them was a pretty nice nod and shows some mad respect for the original game from the developers.
 
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EGsmash

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#95
PK Freeze has gone from highly situational to spammable instant-kill move. Easy to hit, stupid hard to mash out, lazy kills even at low %.

It's a cheezy move now and you should feel bad for using it, you crybaby Ness knock-offs. </salt>
 
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#96
Dang dude sorry for using a good option.
Lucas feels so nice in this game though, his aireals are all so nice and Pk fire is so much fun! PK freeze is a great kill option when the opposnent is offstage, and down throw, while not as insane as smash 4, can still get into a fullhop sweetspot fair at some percentages. It feels so good to nair into fair and stuff like that.
 

Eramef

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#97
What are Lucas's weaknesses? A friend started playing him recently and I cannot figure him out for the life of me.

PK Fire is nuts, fair has an almost Marth-like disjoint while hitting like a truck, and his edgeguard options are insane. He feels like he has no weaknesses besides a kinda exploitable up b he doesn't usually even need.

I play Inkling and Snake mostly but considering picking up a third for this. With Inkling I struggle to kill because he knows to stay in the air and doesn't get hit by roller. With Snake he just dumpsters me in the neutral.
 

EdreesesPieces

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#98
What are Lucas's weaknesses? A friend started playing him recently and I cannot figure him out for the life of me.

PK Fire is nuts, fair has an almost Marth-like disjoint while hitting like a truck, and his edgeguard options are insane. He feels like he has no weaknesses besides a kinda exploitable up b he doesn't usually even need.

I play Inkling and Snake mostly but considering picking up a third for this. With Inkling I struggle to kill because he knows to stay in the air and doesn't get hit by roller. With Snake he just dumpsters me in the neutral.
Sword characters tend to be harder for him. Lucas has a lot of startup frames before his attacks come out and coupled with their range sword characters can make it hard for him if they are good at pressuring shield.

Inkling and snake are zoners who can't actually zone against lucas so Lucas wins against both of them.
 

Xebenkeck

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#99
Eramef Eramef

Lucas only has 4 safe-ish options in neutral, Pk fire full range, Fade back SH Fair, cross-up Nair and falling Zair.

If he does anything else it is unsafe on block and can be punished out of shield.

It sounds like your friend knows Lucas fairly well considering the two things giving you trouble are two of his best options.

So if he is spamming full range pk fire and fair. Honestly there isn't much you can do about it, they are safe options for a reason.

So bide your time play your characters safe neutral options whatever they are and wait for him to do something other than the four moves I mentioned above. When he does that it is your time to attack and punish him.

Typically he will be using pk fire to open you up in neutral. The moment you roll in or use a unsafe reflector, or get hit by it, that is what he is waiting for and will punish you because Lucas is then in advantage state.
 
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Dbap

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Eramef Eramef

Lucas only has 4 safe-ish options in neutral, Pk fire full range, Fade back SH Fair, cross-up Nair and falling Zair.

If he does anything else it is unsafe on block and can be punished out of shield.

It sounds like your friend knows Lucas fairly well considering the two things giving you trouble are two of his best options.

So if he is spamming full range pk fire and fair. Honestly there isn't much you can do about it, they are safe options for a reason.

So bide your time play your characters safe neutral options whatever they are and wait for him to do something other than the four moves I mentioned above. When he does that it is your time to attack and punish him.

Typically he will be using pk fire to open you up in neutral. The moment you roll in or use a unsafe reflector, or get hit by it, that is what he is waiting for and will punish you because Lucas is then in advantage state.

If you don't mind me asking who do you play as in Ultimate, I could give you more specific info depending on that.
This.

Like he said it depends who you main but in general you wanna be under Lucas, his dair can’t contest most character up airs and he’s somewhat floaty. None of his specials will help him while he’s being juggled either. I know when I’m being juggled I have to hope for a clutch airdodge or just retreat to a ledge which is also dangerous.
 

Cheryl~

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It seems like Lucas mains are kinda rare now a days. I hardly see people use him online. Where's all the love?
Ness has always been the more popular Earthbound character online in my experience, even in Smash 4. Part of it probably comes from the mentality that PK Fire is broken in Quickplay so that drives more noobish players to use Ness. (This could also go for Lucas and PK Freeze to be fair) Or I guess more people like using Ness than Lucas, I don’t really know.
 

Rikarte

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Well, Ness has more the flashy combos as well as a more aggressive playstyle. He's also part of the original 12 which might add to his appeal. Still, it's kinda weird how I've never encountered another Lucas player online...
 

Cheryl~

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You’ve never encountered any Lucas online? I must live in a popular Lucas area then, there was this one time I found an arena that had like 3 or 4 other Lucas players at once, it was pretty cool. Other than that I see Lucas every once in a while in arenas, not so much on Quickplay.
 
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TheBeastHimself

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I'm legitimately angry. Lucas is HORRIBLE in this game. He can't keep up with anyone.
I don't see it that way at all. Lucas is not only fast like Ness, but he has plenty of tools to keep enemies away and to successfully edge guard, on top of being able to absorb energy attacks and reflect projectiles with his stick.

What seems to be the issue for you?
 

Specs64z

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I don't see it that way at all. Lucas is not only fast like Ness, but he has plenty of tools to keep enemies away and to successfully edge guard, on top of being able to absorb energy attacks and reflect projectiles with his stick.

What seems to be the issue for you?
Lucas is actually on the lower end of middling speed, and Ness is one of the slowest characters in the game.
 

Cheryl~

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Well, Patch 3.0 patch notes are out, and Lucas has survived by receiving... no changes at all! This is indirectly good as most projectiles in the game have nerfed power against shields and Lucas' projectiles did not receive that nerf, although I would've liked to see buffs to moves like Down-Air, N-Air, and Down-Tilt instead of just being unchanged. Oh well, better than getting nerfed in my book.
 

TheBeastHimself

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Well, Patch 3.0 patch notes are out, and Lucas has survived by receiving... no changes at all! This is indirectly good as most projectiles in the game have nerfed power against shields and Lucas' projectiles did not receive that nerf, although I would've liked to see buffs to moves like Down-Air, N-Air, and Down-Tilt instead of just being unchanged. Oh well, better than getting nerfed in my book.
I agree that down-tilt definitely needs some buffs. The move isn't useless, but I find it hard to find a good opening to use the move. And even when I do make contact with down-tilt, it's likely 1-2 hits at best. I definitely think the speed should be increased a little because in its current state I think the move is just too slow to be viable. Only real use I see for the move is if you're doing d-tilt -> jab but even then, it doesn't add too much damage onto your jab.
 

Cheryl~

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  • Dash Attack: Increased active frames: 13-15F -> 13-17F
  • Forward Tilt:
    • Increased hitbox size of beginning
    • Increased knockback growth
  • Up Smash: Increased active frames of full-body invincibility: 1-4F -> 1-7F
  • Up Air: Decreased total frames: 33F -> 31F
  • Side Special: Decreased landing lag: 22F -> 19F
We've finally been noticed in a patch, and it's all buffs! God bless. While these don't address Lucas' main issues in his disadvantage and lack of range on non-PSI attacks (well, F-Tilt buff aside), these are very good QOL buffs for a character that was already *fine* before, but definitely could've appreciated something more. In particular, I've seen some Lucas mains on Twitter saying that Up-Smash having more invincibility frames could allow it to be used as a way to armor through an opponent's aerials as they fall into you for an easy and very hard punish. (Personally, I don't think it'll be meta-changing or anything because it's still Lucas' Up-Smash but it's nice to give the move some more use). Overall, good buffs that make Lucas even better than before, I can't wait to see his meta grow in the coming months because I believe a fully optimized Lucas could easily reach the high tiers.
 
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