Broken again - incase you didn't see it (Now with video guide)

[Twin Dreams]

Oh, I just realized....



This won't work on ICs!!! lol. That's funny. Looks like they may not be banned, after all.

Looks like everybody should learn to play ICs....

 

[mangodurban]

Lets ban all characters except snake, that would be the only fair way.

 

[Ark22]

What people fail to realize is that this infinite IS NOTHING LIKE WOBBLING.

Wobbling had the same timing sequence on every character. Once you started the wobble, all you had to do was press A in sequence. You didn't have to think about what you were doing.

The timing for this grab combo, and for all of the ICs alternate throws, varies with each character and varies depending on your opponent's damage. The timing for the combo changes (and gets much harder) as your opponent's damage increases.

The Ice Climbers new 0-death throw combos take skill and are very prone to error. Most people will mess up the chain throw somewhere along the combo so that they can't get 0-death kills every grab.

 

[goodoldganon]

IF there is a metagame to Brawl, the Ice Climbers will be banned. I really don't feel like Brawl will have a metagame though. People will try for the next 2 years and realize it's not worth it. But that's my 2 cents.

 

[Grandeza]

**** I have to fight some ice climbers and practice. I lol'd at "Don't get grabbed".

 

[DeuceBlade]

im sure metaknight could get out of that, he isn't affected by time after all.

 

[Twin Dreams]

I'll say again.



First off, ICs can definately not use this on another ICs. (Since you have the other one to knock the thrower off.) So, I'm telling you all know to learn ICs. They will be important if this is learned well. (Also, YOU don't need to learn the throw. Just know ICs in case someone else can do the throw. So you can fight them easier.)



Secondly, this appears hard to do. So, ICs won't get banned until they use this technique to dominate a tournament.

 

[hippochinfat!!]

No way! I don't believe it!

 

[Yuna]

I'll say again.

First off, ICs can definately not use this on another ICs. (Since you have the other one to knock the thrower off.) So, I'm telling you all know to learn ICs. They will be important if this is learned well. (Also, YOU don't need to learn the throw. Just know ICs in case someone else can do the throw. So you can fight them easier.)

If a character or tactic shuts down almost the entire roster (as in: Can't possibly ever win), then it'll get banned.

You cannot say "Just go IC's".

Secondly, this appears hard to do. So, ICs won't get banned until they use this technique to dominate a tournament.

How hard it is to do is meaningless. If it can be done by humans, it will be done by humans. It's enough if a single IC can destroy competition doing this alone. As long as it's doable (which it is).

 

[berserker515]

What people fail to realize is that this infinite IS NOTHING LIKE WOBBLING.

Wobbling had the same timing sequence on every character. Once you started the wobble, all you had to do was press A in sequence. You didn't have to think about what you were doing.

The timing for this grab combo, and for all of the ICs alternate throws, varies with each character and varies depending on your opponent's damage. The timing for the combo changes (and gets much harder) as your opponent's damage increases.

The Ice Climbers new 0-death throw combos take skill and are very prone to error. Most people will mess up the chain throw somewhere along the combo so that they can't get 0-death kills every grab.

it's not that its hard to do. its the fact that it can be done. someone may eventually master this. even all the required timing. if that happens that person will be unstopable unless they face another IC. that will make IC the only possible choice if you wanna win (even with camping the player has to come into grabbing range at some point. unless their snake).

in pokemon, a pokemon was banned when their power limited the roster to only counter pokemon. thats what this chaingrab will do. ic's don't have to be banned, their grabs don't have to be banned but this tech certainly shouldn't be legal.

then again i highly doubt i'll ever attend a tourney that allows this so i don't really care.

edit: yuna beat me to it

 

[SketchHurricane]

It's been said repeatedly that this is harder than wobbling, so I don't see how this changes anything. IC's pose the same grab threat as they always have then.

 

[orintemple]

If a character or tactic shuts down almost the entire roster (as in: Can't possibly ever win), then it'll get banned.

You cannot say "Just go IC's".


How hard it is to do is meaningless. If it can be done by humans, it will be done by humans. It's enough if a single IC can destroy competition doing this alone. As long as it's doable (which it is).

I really love Yuna sometimes.

This is basically what i was going to say. The difficulty doesn't matter because no matter how hard it is people will still be able to do it. Look at someone like Silent Wolf in Melee, technical skills can be done near flawlessly. That makes this grab super broken.

Also, ICs will never be banned, there is no point in banning a character when they only have one broken technique. Just ban the technique. Characters with infinites were never banned before, just the infinite itself.

 

[Flayl]

So is it possible to ban D3's chain grab against Bowser, DK, Luigi, Mario and Samus or are those forced to lose a match and counter-pick?

 

[Yuna]

So is it possible to ban D3's chain grab against Bowser, DK, Luigi, Mario and Samus or are those forced to lose a match and counter-pick?

No (I thought would like the chaingrab banned), because it only forces you to not play as thoes 5 characters (and even on Samus and Mario, for instance, the chaingrab stops at a certian % last time I checked but maybe they've worked around that). This chaingrab forces you to go ICs. Which means that it shuts down every single character in the game besides ICs.

It's been said repeatedly that this is harder than wobbling, so I don't see how this changes anything. IC's pose the same grab threat as they always have then.

Nana has been buffed, the game has been nerfed (1 stock is worth much more now) and all of that aside, despite certain parts of the US not banning Wobbling (others did) because, I don't know, they were idiots, Wobbling was banned (in parts of the US and Europe at least).

 

[GenG]

The fact of it being done doesn't mean it would be done every time consistently. Why Waveshine wasn't banned in Melee?

 

[Twin Dreams]

**** it, Yuna. Why are you always right?!



ICs completely limiting the roster to only ICs would constitute a ban.

Yuna, do you think there will be a way just to ban this? It'd be obvious if it's being done. If it's difficult to perform, then it shouldn't happen more than once or twice by accident, but, I guess one you start to give a little, people will take advantage anyway....


I guess ICs will be banned.

 

[Kevvviiinnn]

This technique is very easy to do. I can get 90%+ online or offline before messing up, and I've only had about 20 minutes of practice with it =/

I hope it gets banned.

 

[Sonic XD]

You are all taking this too seriously. Sure the ICs have an infinite, but has it been fully tested out in tourneys? This chaingrab will not pose a REAL threat to tourney gameplay. In fact, I doubt it will be a big problem.

 

[Jam Stunna]

I don't see what everyone is getting so worked up about. ICs could 0-death everyone in Melee, and they weren't banned (yes, some parts of the US still banned wobbling, but SBR unbanned it). As has been noted before, this chain grab is MUCH harder than wobbling, and has several more variables than wobbling did. The ICs have enough weaknesses where this doesn't make them unbeatable.

Besides, if all else fails, just go by the rule of thumb in Melee: Don't get grabbed by the ICs. That shouldn't be too hard considering their horrendous grab range and lack of traction.

 

[Deleted member]

The argument "don't get grabbed" fails on so many levels.

Especially now that in Brawl, the ICs don't have to approach. Instead, they can simply camp and throw blocks / breathe ice.

The chain grabs are broken. They have a lot of options.

To anyone who doubts the potential of these, you're dumb or something, because they can and will win. A lot of times, if you get grabbed, you are dead. Especially at high %s, when they can do the back-throw to upsmash.

 

[SiegKnight]

lolz at scrubs in either game banning anything ever once the match begins instead of just blaming the game altogether. same with melee and wobbling. theres no such thing as cheapness. There is the game, then there is the player who's job is to WIN it. Use what works, not what feels right or honorable. If you're binding yourself to fictatious rules then you're not abiding the game and are thus a scrub crying cheap. The game knows no sense of bannage or whatever once the stage is selected.

You win, or you lose. That should be it. The victory screen is the decider, not you. See the 1 symbol under your character slot when you win? Yeah. That. Get it. No matter what it takes.

if the game dominates itself entirely by this move? either deal with it, let it be ic vs ic all the time, or don't play it. If you get beaten in a tournament where its banned, just know that if you were allowed to play the game properly, you could've won.

if it becomes IC versus IC? well, thats what Brawl will become via its own natural growth. Stop fuucking around with ittt god jesus. At least it'll prove the game is apparentally worthless for competetive play and give you more reason to go back to melee if thats the way about things. You should do that, or wait till something stops this or by some miracle people learn how to play around it via the natural progression of a match.

Its hard to do? Even better. Less scrubs will take % off of pro's.

Do you guys even know how to play fighting games and use what works abusively and force your opposition to make counters?

 

[Deleted member]

Holy crap. I enjoy Sirlin just as much as the next guy, but you sir officially need to take his **** outta your mouth.

Since you seem to be the all knowing competitive fighter guru, what about Akuma's ban? Are the people who banned Akuma scrubs?

Of course not. There are extenuating circumstances and Sirlin is not always right.

His scrub analysis works on basic levels, but when a technique pops up and presents itself to the community as something that is hardly stoppable, it's time for the community to step up and make a decision. We're not scrubs for deciding to do so. That's not to imply explicitly that Brawl ICs are unstoppable.

On the contrary. They are stoppable. The chain grabs simply feel much too out of place in Brawl though. They're extremely good, and with practice, they are inescapable. They're certainly bannable.

 

[Corigames]

Uh... don't get grabbed...

Or, keep nana and popo separate. Simple.

 

[MyRevenge.]

That's if you can outsmart your opponent...
Then again... if you ever get grabbed... just punch your opponents arm... that always works :D
(is that against tournament rules? 0.o)
But this isn't the only chaingrab they have, right?

 

[SketchHurricane]

lolz at scrubs in either game banning anything ever once the match begins instead of just blaming the game altogether. same with melee and wobbling. theres no such thing as cheapness. There is the game, then there is the player who's job is to WIN it. Use what works, not what feels right or honorable. If you're binding yourself to fictatious rules then you're not abiding the game and are thus a scrub crying cheap. The game knows no sense of bannage or whatever once the stage is selected.

You win, or you lose. That should be it. The victory screen is the decider, not you. See the 1 symbol under your character slot when you win? Yeah. That. Get it. No matter what it takes.

if the game dominates itself entirely by this move? either deal with it, let it be ic vs ic all the time, or don't play it. If you get beaten in a tournament where its banned, just know that if you were allowed to play the game properly, you could've won.

if it becomes IC versus IC? well, thats what Brawl will become via its own natural growth. Stop fuucking around with ittt god jesus. At least it'll prove the game is apparentally worthless for competetive play and give you more reason to go back to melee if thats the way about things. You should do that, or wait till something stops this or by some miracle people learn how to play around it via the natural progression of a match.

Its hard to do? Even better. Less scrubs will take % off of pro's.

Do you guys even know how to play fighting games and use what works abusively and force your opposition to make counters?

I laughed at DeLoRtEd1's response. It hit home.

Variety is the spice of life. You're that hung up on victory that you would STILL feel the need to prove yourself in a 1 character game? You really wouldn't walk away at that point and see what else the world of gaming had to offer? That's pretty much what your conceding, and it's pretty sad. There's more to life than Sirlin's black and white outlook on fighting games.

 

[darkatma]

Uh... don't get grabbed...

Or, keep nana and popo separate. Simple.

In melee you had the choice because there was l canceling
in brawl, half the characters have no safe way of approach, and would get ***** by any easy shieldgrab.

 

[everlasting yayuhzz]

Any 0-death like this in Brawl needs an insta-ban.

 

[Lant]

Somebody on 4chan found this night of release. Old.

Was there actually a video of him doing it on a player?

 

[Thulius]

I don't get it, why would an entire character be banned for something like this? Why not just ban chaingrabs in general?

 

[Twin Dreams]

I don't get it, why would an entire character be banned for something like this? Why not just ban chaingrabs in general?

Because how do you ban a chain grab?


Do you ban grabbing out of the hit-stun of a grab?
Do you ban grabbing?
How many times can you chain grab?
What if I put a move in between my grabs?
What if it's escapable, but my opponent is dumb and let me grab him over and over?
What happens if someone accidentally chain grabs?



You cannot institute a ban on chain grabbing into a tournament rule set without causing problems.




However, you can ban a character with no repercussions what so ever!

 

[DRaGZ]

If Wobbling wasn't banned, what makes you think this will? o_O

EDIT: And yes, I've read this thread, I just don't see any good arguments for such a ban, lol.

 

[Lant]

If Wobbling wasn't banned, what makes you think this will? o_O

EDIT: And yes, I've read this thread, I just don't see any good arguments for such a ban, lol.

I thought Wobbling was banned though?

 

[SiegKnight]

Holy crap. I enjoy Sirlin just as much as the next guy, but you sir officially need to take his **** outta your mouth.

Since you seem to be the all knowing competitive fighter guru, what about Akuma's ban? Are the people who banned Akuma scrubs?

Of course not. There are extenuating circumstances and Sirlin is not always right.

His scrub analysis works on basic levels, but when a technique pops up and presents itself to the community as something that is hardly stoppable, it's time for the community to step up and make a decision. We're not scrubs for deciding to do so. That's not to imply explicitly that Brawl ICs are unstoppable.

On the contrary. They are stoppable. The chain grabs simply feel much too out of place in Brawl though. They're extremely good, and with practice, they are inescapable. They're certainly bannable.

Why do I always get the feeling the smash community is full of useless subhumans who live in their moms basement and always feel the need to insult newcomers to the community for a differing opinion? You, sir, need to take the *OMG SENSORED BECAUSE YOUR SITE IS MADE OF FUUUCKING SHIIT* out of your mouth for insulting me first.

Opinion? Fine. Useless insult? hahaha. You guys are the worst. The guilty gear community is lazy, the street fighter community is relatively insane but it rarely encounters outsiders anyway so it never changed it strategy, but you guys, you guys are the worst. I didn't even start trying to enact negative responses from you yet and I already need to take something censored due to your dumb sites useless filtering system out of my mouth~!

What I said friend, was the truth. Corey has it down right. Keep them seperated, don't get grabbed. I'd add, stay on the ground. I'd use their will to grab me as bait for more predictability and maybe counter with a super armor frame attack like ike's up b providing they stop grabs too. One hit on the IC's partner is fine, assault them till they get back together, then run and strategize.

Variety is the spice of life, but it might not bloody exist in Brawl if the game so develops that way. Fight an uphill battle around it or stfu and die, or go back to playing your fictional version of Smash. (I know mind items and stage bans, once you start the match though, it should be about the win/loss screen.)

Akuma is soft banned in japan, and even so, thats a different thing altogether. He's not a strategy, he's a character. There are plenty of techniques in mvc2 which auto kill most of the cast cept for those with the intense manueverability and match pacing control of the top 10. And thats a game with 60 characters, and the sf community views it as competetive Melee's most viable comparison ignoring no DI and the health metres.

Here I can use your own dumb abitrary card against you; Smash is not a traditional fighter. Akuma is different because he breaks the system entirely and was built to do so. Even so, japan recognises he's still part of the game and you're allowed to use him, even if no one serious has the lack of honor to. The fact he's an extra doesn't help, and capcom realized their mistake later on, keeping shin akuma unselectable or not too broken if he is. Akuma was never *intended* to be used in tournaments, nor was the secret code really meant to be so widespread and known...

This is one strategy out of many, not a character x.o...

 

[sFoster]

Seig I have to agee that your outlook is a little silly.

I would sooner just stop playing smash altogether and move on to something less broken.
There is no thrill in being good at a lopsided game. It kills the fun.

 

[SiegKnight]

Well it looks like you might have to unless you want to make up your own fictatious version of the game. Its not entirely broken. Ice Climbers are quite mediocore compared to Pitt and Marth etc outside of this trick right? You can keep knocking them apart, only fight them when apart, and then run to strategize a way to knock them apart again when they're near again.

This shouldn't even be a trouble since the game is so campy in the first place. You can even grab them first, meaning one of them can't be grabbed anyway, and then throw them apart!!! Goddaaammnit.

Ever heard of thinking? You may be developing ICs around guarantied throw attempts and getting the chain throw in, and other games around countering it, but considering all the disjointed hit boxes, camping, throwing them apart, and other stuuupid shiit you can do to stop the otherwise mediocore ice climbers winning, at least it'll be more tactical than what Brawl is now.

You wanted a line between pro's and noobs? Check.

You wanted to know what I meant by a character having an abusive trick to centre their game around in the other thread? Check.

Ice Climbers aren't that good close up, and when one is in hit stun/knockback, this trick isn't so useful. Outspace them. Marth is miles stronger in every other area and his hitbox is disjointed as all heeell~!

Pitt can camp and he has a semi disjointed hitbox, and his game is very aerial. Know what that means chump? No grabs.

 

[phanna]

Hmm I thought I had already posted here. Regardless, this was discovered at least 2 weeks before Hylian posted it, hopefully someone has already noted that in this thread. I have yet to see anyone employ it in a match.

 

[SiegKnight]

I would like to see someone do so and see how the other develops a defence around it before its apparentally 'instabanned' because I was considering learning the buggers

 

[Sonic XD]

I would love to own Gimpyfish with this technique. Gimpyfish does not stand a chance now.

 

[Crizthakidd]

how would u ban something like this? lol as soon as a IC grabs the guy turns the wii off?

lol j.k whats to stop nubs from doing this online tho T_T

 

[SiegKnight]

Yes, they apparentally expect you to.