Broken again - incase you didn't see it (Now with video guide)

[Deleted member]

Okay, but I'm sure we can agree that Peach's downsmash was very effective against the ICs.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Okay, but I'm sure we can agree that Peach's downsmash was very effective against the ICs.

**** skippy it is. W-H-O-R-E-N-A-D-O.

Lol.

I'm all for banning the technique. We could always apply the "no wobbling" rule that some tourney venues have in force for Melee. I remember at G4S 4 (or was it five?) that there was a "no wobbling" rule in effect for ICs (and that if you did wobble, the person you wobbled and one of his buddies gets to hold you down and smack you with rubber-headed mallets).

But banning the character? I think that is a bit much. Unless all other aspects of the character are horrifically broken (like Akuma, as mentioned by Yuna and Ferith), then I don't think the ICs should be banned.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Ferith]

Okay, great, you guys agree. Now stop arguing. Yuna's not saying "Ban it right here, right now." Yuna's just defending the possibility of banning it, because SiegKnight claimed that there is no way, period, that this would ever, or shouuld ever, get banned. That is wrong.

If you agree that it might be banworthy, why are you arguing so fiercely that it, flat out, is not?

I was born that way.

I'm saying it could be but not without testing available counter strategy and character matchups, and furthermore without seeing how this really does affect competitive play. In it's current state, I'd say it's not worth banning, as we haven't seen how it really does affect- we simply have basic ideas and prediction. Fighters evolve, when that one cheap uber combo comes out it becomes about avoiding it and getting it out. The game then changes and so on, it evolves. This is what I'm seeing now with this infin. It's not a good evolution, but it's the way the game was destined to change. How do you propose we ban this? "No using the combo three times? Four times? Once?" Then it's how many times you can hit the limit before breaking the rule.

 

[Twin Dreams]

How do you propose we ban this? "No using the combo three times? Four times? Once?" Then it's how many times you can hit the limit before breaking the rule.

Ban Ice Climbers.


Done.

 

[Rose]

Solution: Stop playing Brawl.

 

[Jam Stunna]

It should also be noted that in Melee the ICs had a common enough counter (Peach) to essentially make it very tough for ICs to become insanely broken.

Had Peach's downsmash not been so gay, perhaps the ICs would have been top of top tier.

In Brawl however, there is no Peach-like counter for the ICs. It's pretty dang hard to separate the two.

The reason why the ICs were mid-tier wasn't only because of Peach. Every character above them in the list did a pretty good job of countering them. Fox and Marth gimped Nana so easily it wasn't funny, and while Falco and Sheik had a harder time, they were both good at neutralizing the ICs.

That's the point that people like me are trying to make. The ICs chaingrabs, in both Melee and Brawl, make them much better. But there are so many weaknesses to them that the chaingrab does not make them unbeatable. It just adds another element to their game.

 

[Yuna]

That's the point that people like me are trying to make. The ICs chaingrabs, in both Melee and Brawl, make them much better. But there are so many weaknesses to them that the chaingrab does not make them unbeatable. It just adds another element to their game.

Only it's much harder to gimp them now because of not only how the characters themselves changed (+ how the new ones work) but also because of the game engine itself.

Congratulations, you managed to hit them. Now you have two Ice Climbers suffering next-to-no hitstun spamming out a Nair at you. Congratulations, you hit one IC, but the other blocked you. Feel the pain. Congratulations, you dodged an IC-grab, some damage for you, I guess. Congratulations, you didn't dodge the grab. One stock off your stock count.

Yet, ICs still retain some of their Melee (true) grab combos. Of course, I'm not Chu Dat, I might be wrong but from what I can tell, they can still do some of their usual bovine manure into grab.

 

[Mephianse]

I'd LOVE to use this againts noobs that keep saying Smash is just for fun and then make them cry and suffer. That would be like "In your face Sakurai!"

But really, even if I was capable of that it will really boring and unnecesary to win a match. Maybe I'll do 3 or 4 consecutive grabs, just to make them suffer a little.

 

[SiegKnight]

I know nothing about competetive gaming? I've played gaming competetively in all forms and lived off it for a short peroid of my life. Since Virtua Fighter 2 in japan when every arcade was full of the cabinets and my family visited for a summer, I've played competetively in every genre from Virtual On and the community's stern evolution until its awful recent sequel Marz torn it apart, to Pokemon, 3rd Strike, Smash Melee - with some of the UK crew.

I'm also good friends with many top gamers who live off the bloody thing and I'm also good friends with Ceddon/Ed, who's very interested in the expansion of the UK Smash scene - he also hosted the first Melee tournament in UK in 2003. He said my playstyle on wifi was pretty awesome, and wants to see me fight in real time, so I'm attending his tournament.

I know more about competetive gaming in general than you Yuna. You seem to be a smasher exclusively. You refference Tekken alot? Hay, heard of Ryan Hart? He's the best tekken player in the world. I practice with his ex roommate, 1up alot. I'm arguably on japanese level. Actually, I am, I've played Tissuemon and plenty psychotic **** at the game and am top of my game. I say arguably as I've not actually been in one of their tournaments. But fighting respectable players from their side of the globe at any good game shows I have technical fingers.

Though I mainly play 1up at alpha 3 and third strike, he also taught me a ken infinite for v-ken in it that no one else in europe knows. I'm not kidding. He said it first and forced me to learn it because I main ken and few in alpha 3 do, and he thought it'd be interesting. Its not been seen outside of japan yet (I have a yt vid of the infinite itself too, and instructions on performing it)

1up also has the best alpha 3 chun IN THE WORLD and you can find vids of him vs rakurai - high level player at many games, good friend of mine - in finals for neo empire A3 tournaments.

I am the second best Aoi in europe to Optimusuk on vf5, and have visited Japan for practice, albiet I've not played Chibita like I wanted to. And I also found alot of nice Brawl **** I'm withdrawing in case my family can scrape up the cash to go to evo this year, even though its nothing game breaking or spectacular. self admittedly.

Please don't insult someone before you know them personally. Competetive gaming is a big deal of my soul and motivation.

Yuna. I'd money match you at most games for a ****load if you want proof of my 'knowledge' of competition. What games do you play? I'd not mind viddng the match if you're up for a meet. I'm not too interested in Melee honestly, but I'd not mind dusting off my old Ice Climber skills and looking up some neat stage counterpicks if you're dead set on that. But I'd prefer Brawl, third strike, tekken, all of which you seem to know at least a little about.

I am very scary in any of them.

 

[Corigames]

You know, American smashers are better than Japanese smashers. It's been tested and proven. Is this true for any other fighter? Not that I can think of. Not right now anyway. So, I doubt your experience in any other fighter has much bearing on Smash Brawl if it has little to no affect on smash melee, at least in that respect.

 

[SiegKnight]

He said I had no competetive experience and didn't know how to play competetive games properly. I'm saying I do. What does that post have to do with it? oh, I forgot, you're being a self absorbed cuunt. *head to desk* ~_~ ah yes.

I also have played melee pretty well for the short time I bothered. Its nothing special. I'm quick to pick up games. l cancelling, wavedashing, its easy for me. I'm also very psychological in any game I play, and I love reading patterns and punishing bad habits.

I just never stuck with it.

I'm planning to give my all at this upcoming brawl tournament Ceddon's holding that has alot of hype already and am practicing at local smashfests in surrey alot.

 

[Corigames]

You said your experience is with other fighters. I'm saying smash is wayyyy out there when it comes to comparison with other fighters, as it seems. So saying you have experience with other fighting games, no matter which ones, doesn't seem relevant to experience in Smash, let alone a crazy, skill-less game like Brawl.

 

[SiegKnight]

I'm good at reading patterns, punishing habits and a really good brawl player said I have a good mindset for the game - he has vids up, and an account here. Look at Uk forums here for his tournament. Name above. thats what he calls himself on msn anyway.

he said its a shame I missed melee too as I have the right mindset for it, whatever that means. I played Lucario. he was suffering from awful lag I wasn't, and said it was sad because I 'look good' too. He also plays melee luigi like a beast on his yt.

I didn't put any impressions on him before that either, nor did he know my history

Thats all the proof I have so far, but I'm going to give my all for brawl anyway. I don't come to boards to laugh at idiots unless they link to something about me, after all.

I don't claim 'Haha laugh now idiots, I'll be top of the world someday at this game' because I think my playing will do the talking.

He said many players don't get through psychological barriers and other stuff which is requiring for high level play; understandable. Getting out of a pattern and being free flowing, adaptive, matters a ton in a fighting game, but its also hard to do. He trained many melee players, as he said, but said I didn't seem to have the problem of sticking to one style. This was brawl, though.

Since I could l cancel and do other techy stuff in melee with ease due to my background cancelling and doing other techy **** in street fighter, and since I react VERY VERY FAST - I parry 80% of stuff thrown at me in SF3 series - don't you think I'm set potentially?

I have the psychology. I have the fingers.

And brawl only needs the former.

 

[Corigames]

Well, while I think I'm being accused of something, I'd like to point out that when I say, "I am going to be the best!" I'm not being egotistical. I'm not gloating or putting anyone down either...


...I'm telling you the future.

 

[SiegKnight]

My beef isn't with you, son. x.o;

You're not being accused of anything, though I remember that post standing out like a sore thumb as being a drastic over estimation. I have to admit however, you rarely see such determination in any community nowadays. Considering how your peers act generally, you're not scared of them shooting down your comments or laughing at you?

You're bold, I give you that. (No sarcasm, or anything.)

Just be careful. Nothing relative to being against you or for you, but some advice. Competetive gaming will often bite your determination back if you're destroyed by someone. 'I will not lose' feels awful when you lose, after all. In many times in my history with many games, I've locked up and became a predictable mess when I've made silly vows and ended up useless when I felt the game flow going against me.

Make sure not to end up like that.

 

[Twin Dreams]

My beef isn't with you, son. x.o;

You're not being accused of anything, though I remember that post standing out like a sore thumb as being a drastic over estimation. I have to admit however, you rarely see such determination in any community nowadays. Considering how your peers act generally, you're not scared of them shooting down your comments or laughing at you?

You're bold, I give you that. (No sarcasm, or anything.)

Just be careful. Nothing relative to being against you or for you, but some advice. Competetive gaming will often bite your determination back if you're destroyed by someone. 'I will not lose' feels awful when you lose, after all. In many times in my history with many games, I've locked up and became a predictable mess when I've made silly vows and ended up useless when I felt the game flow going against me.

Make sure not to end up like that.

Aren't you the one that said that ICs should never ever be banned for any reason?

 

[Corigames]

A mans heart must be the one to blaze his own path and to brush aside all those that get between him and the burning sun that he has to grasp a hold and endure on his own. If he can't even realize this, he makes no course of his own and only follows the trails of those ahead of him, there awaits for him nothing more but the same fate as the one in front of him.

I speak big, because I must speak big. I am me. I believe in me who believes in myself. It is destiney that I will become the best. And, who am I to deny destiny?

WHO THE **** DO YOU THINK I AM?!

 

[SiegKnight]

Uh, yes. Though I don't understand what relavence that question has in context with my post. What do you want? (to twin dreams, just editing to clarify, and corey. Uhm~ Corny. But hay, at least you have aspirations. Good luck. I'd love to see the look on someones face at a smashfest or anything after you belittle them with such unbelievable aspirations and then proceed to prove everything you said as true via a swift *** killing, provided you aren't all mouth. But anyway.)

uh, yah. Twin dreams. what the hell did that question mean? just editing cause I'm curious, want you to know it didn't make any sense at all

 

[Blackshadow]

Wow, I've got to make a new list of SWF's Stupidest Noobs because SiegKnight and Ferith have just become God Tier.

 

[Corigames]

I'd love to see the look on someones face at a smashfest or anything after you belittle them with such unbelievable aspirations and then proceed to prove everything you said as true via a swift *** killing, provided you aren't all mouth. But anyway.)

No. I would never talk **** to someone's face at a tournament during, before, or after a match. That's not right. After the tournament is over, my moral code says it is OK to then say things, but you never talk ****. It's always 1)hand shake and "good luck"'s 2) play following the rules without insulting the other person for how they are playing 3) Hand shake and "good game"'s afterwards. If you deviate much from this at all, whether you dominate, come close, or utterly fail, you are probably a complete ****.

I like to psych myself up though by proclaiming to everyone that I'm here to take there money, or something like that. I don't count that as trash talk.

 

[Yuna]

Stuff

Then how come your posts indicate otherwise? It's obviously you're at least not a very knowledgable Smasher. And why the heck did you quote Sirlin's articles without actually knowing what they were about first?

Akuma. Akuma. Akuma. Akuma.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Akuma. Akuma. Akuma. Akuma.

Is this a helpful mantra when it comes to character-related arguments, Yuna?

If it is, I think I'll start employing it whenever I man up and participate in something like this.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Yuna]

Is this a helpful mantra when it comes to character-related arguments, Yuna?

If it is, I think I'll start employing it whenever I man up and participate in something like this.

Smooth Criminal

It is when arguing banned characters/techniques, especially when someone claims it's never been done before.

 

[Dogysamich]

i dont understand the smash community, and nobody probably will.

It makes no sense that everybody in their mom would rather openly share what new "gamebreaking" strategies they have with everybody in an attempt to become "famous", rather than saving it for tournies... LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE DOES.

I mean, is this an interesting thing? Heck yes; but just like everything that's been thrown on the boards, why in gods name do people constantly WANT to keep giving up info like this.

 

[mangodurban]

this breaks the game *******, im not in support of this technique because it could detour the games progress to where only a few characters are fully explored because the new techniques evolve around the competitive scene. I have no intentions of being "famous" because god knows how ****ing famous you can get on smashboards.

 

[Yuna]

i dont understand the smash community, and nobody probably will.

It makes no sense that everybody in their mom would rather openly share what new "gamebreaking" strategies they have with everybody in an attempt to become "famous", rather than saving it for tournies... LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE DOES.

I mean, is this an interesting thing? Heck yes; but just like everything that's been thrown on the boards, why in gods name do people constantly WANT to keep giving up info like this.

Because not everyone is as selfish as you. We share what we find so that others can help explore it.

100 minds work better than 1 even if 85 of those minds are incompetent. The other 14 besides the original mind will still be competent and will most probably spot things the 1st person would have missed.

 

[Sonic XD]

This technique needs to be implemented on a smaller character like MK or TL. Otherwise, this technique may only be good for larger characters. Hylian has yet to show it for smaller characters.

 

[Ark22]

Sonic, this isn't the only chain grab in question. This just happens to be the one that caught peoples' attention. The ICs can still infinite grab any character using varying combinations of their fthrow, dthrow, bthrow, or bthrow > pivot grab.

The Ice Climbers have the potential to break the game with these grabs. However, they should not be banned unless people can prove that they break the game. Some clever person at a tournament could find anti-IC tactics that gimp them and level the playing field for other characters.

For instance, Pikachu's dsmash is the equivalent of Peach's dsmash in melee. Falco's new reflector has great distance, stuns the ICs, and desynchs them enough that you can then gimp Nana. Zamus's whip can easily split up the climbers. MK's sword is a disjointed hitbox with almost no start up or lag time that makes it hard for the ICs to get a grab in. That is just to name a few good tactics that can be used to gimp the ICs.

 

[mangodurban]

that doesn't sound fun, having only a IC and anti IC as top in tourny play. The roster can be much broader if everyone doesn't have to pick either one in order to stand a chance. It can zero kill every time and I have it down fluidly now. Way, way too broken.

 

[Ark22]

The Ice Climbers are broken if you only look at their advantages. But they have overwhelming disadvantages too. They are the easiest character to gimp in the game; easier to gimp than Olimar. They are fairly slow, and Nana only reacts 6 frames after you input a command. This means they can barely air dodge or spot dodge, and they can't perfect shield without Nana getting hit. Their Blizzard is a very good spacing move, but if they miss with it, it has a lot of lag and leaves them wide open.

The Ice Climbers do have their grab combos, but I doubt that the tourney scene will devolve into all IC dittos because they have so many disadvantages.

 

[Jam Stunna]

The Ice Climbers are broken if you only look at their advantages. But they have overwhelming disadvantages too. They are the easiest character to gimp in the game; easier to gimp than Olimar. They are fairly slow, and Nana only reacts 6 frames after you input a command. This means they can barely air dodge or spot dodge, and they can't perfect shield without Nana getting hit. Their Blizzard is a very good spacing move, but if they miss with it, it has a lot of lag and leaves them wide open.

The Ice Climbers do have their grab combos, but I doubt that the tourney scene will devolve into all IC dittos because they have so many disadvantages.

It seems like you used reason to come to that conclusion, and we'll certainly have none of that in this thread.

 

[Undrdog]

Sigh, what's the big deal? Wobbling was easier then this... If it gets out of hand a term for it will be officialized and individual tourney directors will slowly begin banning the use of this particular chaingrab.

 

[yoonie]

There's this game I like to play, it's called super smash bros brawl. i'd prefer to play that over super smash bros don't-get-grabbed-by-ic. Doesn't one just sound like a better game than the other?

Not necessarily. Your new strategy becomes "avoid grabs at all costs". You know it has a range, and so your new goal is to trick them into goofing up enough times for you to get a succesful kill without being at risk of a grab. Ridiculously hard? Yes. Impossible? No.



Akuma has this fireball you se...


Of course it's not, that difficulty seperates the newbs from the pros. I'm not saying don't get hit, just that you have to now center your entire game around the grab. It's like if I have this cheap instant kill move, and you need to be right in front of me to pull it off. Here's an idea- don't get right in front of me.



Then that's the game's evolution. IC's aren't broken to the point they almost garuntee victory. They definately promote it a large deal, but they're more than possible enough to beat.


Brawl is hardly a very competitive game to start with. Abusing glitches and such is imbalancing, and that's not good competitively now either? Competitive play is about being the best and winning, and if IC's promote an insanely easy way to do it then all it's doing is throwing out all the scrubs who are too hard set in their morals to take that extra step in winning. It's a competitive game, it's about winning for money.



Of course it's not avoidable every time, your new focus is to make sure you never get into a position where it IS unavoidable. It's like if Falcon Punch was ten times stronger and faster- stay out of it's range.



It is broken, just not to the point of being banworthy.



That's why we have tier lists isn't it? The pros with the best characters end up at the top. IC's are now the best character. Other characters are still great, but IC's are now the best until some other new extremely abusable and broken tactic comes along.



Stay out of grab range? Range characters suddenly have an advantage! =O
No real counter to being grabbed, you just have to ensure you're never in a garunteed grab position.



It's simply too easy to say that this move is extremely overpowered as to completely **** the competitive game because no kind of counter strategy has even been attempted. If none can be found, and it becomes something a lot of people can master, then banning it seems decent. It's been what, a week? And how many people have attempted some kind of counter strategy?

Give it two to four weeks or so before instantly deciding it's so broken there's no way around it. I'm sure that a few characters could simply camp their way away from IC's grab =/

 

[lain]

As if your goal in brawl wasn't already to avoid getting grabbed or hit.

Don't get grabbed, stop being a wuss.

The end.

 

[Corigames]

As if your goal in brawl wasn't already to avoid getting grabbed or hit.

Don't get grabbed, stop being a wuss.

The end.

That's what I said.

 

[mangodurban]

you cant dodge grabs the whole game and if thats all you can do to win then i have to say, that is stupid, overpowered, and.......boring.

 

[Corigames]

You can, I don't know, hit them? It is possible to go an entire game without being grabbed, trust me, I have done it. It may be boring, but blame Nintendo for making it that way, because, otherwise, we may have AT's to make us get around faster to avoid things and punish.

 

[Radical Dreamer]

The question is how hard is this. Is it so hard the ICs have to literally screw up 10 times as much as the non-ICs to lose? If this is the case, then it's Akuma-level. Akuma could lose is the Akuma cocked it up.

If the advantage is just way too large, then it'll have to be banned. Again, Akuma.


Which was unavoidable since when now?



And the ICs will have nothing but the grab-combos since when now? They'll still have the rest. You obviously do not know what a mixup is.


And I say you're wrong. Again, Akuma.


Akuma-level.


Akuma.


Akuma.


You're wrong. Akuma. Akuma. Akuma. You're still wrong. Stop repeating the same stuff. You're ultimately wrong. I'm not saying I'm 100% right. Maybe I'm not, but you have to use better arguments than the ones you're currently using.

Don't forget Kliff, Justice, Gill and Jinpachi Mishima.

 

[Yuna]

Don't forget Kliff, Justice, Gill and Jinpachi Mishima.

Kliff, Justice and Gill were banned because they weren't in the arcade versions. IIRC, Kliff sucks, Justice is overpowered (I could be wrong) as she's a boss, Gill is clearly overpowered (I'm not sure but I think he's the Final Boss, so it's logical?).

Jinpachi is also overpowered and he might be the final boss as well? I said I knew about these games, not that I knew everything about them . Akuma is just a really good example because he was described in the article SiegKnight quoted while simoultaneously saying "No character has ever or will ever be banned" (O RLY).

 

[Radical Dreamer]

Kliff is overpowered. I-no is also a Guilty Gear boss, and while they made her overpowered as a single player boss, she was balanced for versus play. (In fact she has never even been on the high end of GG tier lists.) The latest Guilty Gear revision was released in Japan, and supposedly Kliff and Justice are as broken as ever.

Not that too many people care though. With the removal of Guilty Gear from the Evo roster, it's pretty dead in the US now. Pretty good game though.