Breaking the Ice - Ice Climbers DLC Discussion Thread - Under New Ownership!

[Big-Cat]

No, it is avoidable. Give grabs proper properties that make it impossible to do chain grabs unless the move specifically calls for it (see King in Tekken).

• Throws can only be performed on grounded characters.
• Implement grab breaks.
• They can not be performed on charcters in block stun or hitstun.

Dedede in Balanced Brawl is also another way to treat chain grabs where they still exist, but in the form of tech reads. At least the above list could prevent a number of balance issues.

 

[Sunnysunny]

Ew. No grab techs or ground only grabs, please.

Just make it so Nana can't grab.

 

[Big-Cat]

What's wrong with them?

 

[Sunnysunny]

Being able to only grab a grounded opponent would nerf the hell outta them in a game where aerial mobility is so strong. And grab techs, I just don't like. It takes away grab combos completely. Don't get me wrong, chaingrabbing is moronic, but grabs are a big part of combos and tech chases in melee and brawl. Brawl snakes d-throw, melee shieks d-throw and melee marth and peaches tech chase junk.

Just put a minimum knockback on grabs that could start a chaingrab. That way characters like fox won't get wrecked, but you can still do grab tech chases.

 

[Big-Cat]

Then why not improve the ground game in other areas?

 

[Sunnysunny]

I don't follow. Whadda-ya mean?

 

[Big-Cat]

If the aerial game is apparently so strong with that removed, why not give the ground game some new mechanics and stuff to compensate. Give the game a proper combo system like in other fighters.

Oh wait, but that would get rid of Smash's so called uniqueness in combos which is about making them on the fly. But I thought that was in other fighting games as well. This is not directed towards you, but to the people who make such a flimsy argument about proper combo mechanics.

And for the Ice Climbers, make their DThrow a hard knockdown. Turn the Down B into a combination of Side B and Down B to make a Blizzard Ring to setup a mixup or pressure game.

 

[dettadeus]

Aerial combos exist too, you know. They don't only happen on the ground.
In fact, I'd have to say that most combos happen in the air, in every smash game.

And again, you're saying to completely change the game's mechanics to fix one character, which isn't a good solution.
Also if you combined Blizzard and Squall Hammer into one special (which would now be exactly like Luigi's D-Special with ice) what would the new S-Special be?

 

[DakotaBonez]

Something like,
Hold down R while selecting Ice Climbers,
to just play as one of them would be an unecessary but nice addition

 

[Sunnysunny]

The game does have a proper combo system. Even in brawl theres combos. Combo's that arn't just grabs over and over again. As detta said they can be started in the air too.

They're just character specific due to weight, fall speed, and what ever the opponents quickest option is in the air. Obviously a light weight like Jiggs would be terrible if you could combo her like the rest of the cast.

------------------------------------------------
Assuming your fighting mario, whos mid weight, and has a quick n-air to help escape combos.

Lucario: F-air, n-air, jab1, jab2, jab1, jab2, jab3.

Lucario: Late hit dash attack, turn around grab, u-throw, u-tilt, air chase.

Yoshi: B-air (not hitting with the last hit), turn around jab1, down-b.

Kirby: F-throw, u-air, regrab, d-throw, u-tilt or air chase.

Pikachu: FF f-air (not hitting with the last hit), grab, f-throw, run up u-smash, free air chase.
------------------------------------------------

I don't get what you want dude. The game already has a strong ground game AND strong air game depending on the character. Snakes, icy, and diddy have great control of the ground, while characters like wario and jiggs make good use of the air.

Exactly what mechanics are ya talking about?

EDIT: You can already blizzard and squall hammer by desyncing them. My suggestion to fix ice climbers is make it so nana can't grab, but make desyncing easier.

 

[gothrax]

HAYY!!!! WHY IS NOBODY TALKING ABOUT THE IC????

You know there really should be more to an IC thread then just "chaingrab" discussion ~_~

I mean what about the way they look?
Its "possible" that the IC will get a new game before sm4sh?
They might get a new style??
HECK WHAT IF IT'LL BE SOO GOOD THAT THEY GET A SECOND REP!!!!???.........°^°??

 

[SSBBDaisy]

Hope all you want, but they're likely to come back. They've been in two games already, and have a unique playstyle in Sakurai's eyes.


I just hope they rely less on the chaingrab, and perhaps make the Down B a bit more useful.

Down B (Aka Blizzard) is a very very good move. :/

 

[kackamee]

I honestly feel like the IC's have are in a strong position to be in Smash 4. Of course chaingrabs weren't intended, Melee or Brawl, but they ended up becoming a key factor in their gameplay. Seeing as how Smash 4 will have a supposedly stronger balance team than previous smash games and assuming that most of the things in the next game will be intended with metagame development, I'd like for chaingrabs with the IC's to stay in the game. Maybe not 0-deaths, but maybe more Melee-esque grab combos. I want the core Ice Climber gameplay to stay the same with cool desynch combos and setups into grabs to rack up damage and kill. For me, that's what makes IC's fun (ontop of them being the cutest characters). No matter how they end up playing in Smash 4, I'll probably always play them just because I love them, but I hope they atleast keep that style of play.

If they end up adding another duo like Diddy and Dixie or Plusle and Minum, it'd be cool to see some other ways of implementing another style of play into them, but leave my Climbers alone D:

 

[Opossum]

Down B (Aka Blizzard) is a very very good move. :/

Really? Huh. I guess I've been outta the loop for a while. xD

 

[asia_catdog_blue]

Not important, but I remember that the Nintendo Power Player's Guide had a name for every attack that the characters had and used in Melee. Here are the Ice Climbers'.

Weak Attacks

1-2: Pound, Upswing

Strong Attacks

Upward: Hammer Spin
Forward: Hammer Swing
Downward: Shin Attack

SMASH ATTACKS:

Upward: Icicle Crasher
Forward: Ice Hammer
Downward: Hammer Sweep

Dash Attack: Scoop

Aerial Attacks:

Center: Icy Whirlwind
Front: Hammer Slam
Back: Reverse Swing
Up: Hammer Reach
Down: Hammer Ride

Special Attacks

Standard B: Ice Shot
Foward B: Squall Hammer
Upward B: Belay
Downward B: Blizzard

Grapples and Throw Downs

Pummel: Cold Headbutt
Front: Hockey Slapshot
Back: Snow Mt. Throw
Up: Icicle Toss
Down: Avalanche Crusher

That's out of here.

 

[SnowCold]

I love ICs and I'm pretty sure they'll be in smash 4 since they've already been in two games. I think they should make them a little bit less overpowered, even if i love infinite chaingrabbing, but i'll agree that they can be annoying to play against. if they made some sort of system where ICs can regrab only a set amount of times that would work. for example, popo throws to nana, regrab 1, nana throws to popo, regrab 2, popo throws to nana, regrab 3, regrabs finished, nana throws to popo popo misses grab because of said mechanic. this way it gives the opponent a chance to escape. or maybe they should make it so that nana can't grab the opponent 10-20 or so frames after the opponent has been thrown. i just hope they make it so ICs don't have to rely so heavily on grabs. melee ICs were great honestly, if they do something like that i'd be satisfied.

 

[dettadeus]

i just hope they make it so ICs don't have to rely so heavily on grabs. melee ICs were great honestly, if they do something like that i'd be satisfied.

Melee Icies still relied a lot on grabs.
Their character design makes them perform at their best when grabs are involved. This is why their grab range is absolute crap.
The main question is whether or not they'll just make abusing grab mechanics harder or they'll remove grab abuse somehow and buff the character to make up for that.

 

[mrbrawl]

they need a better final smash thats all and fix the chain grabs

 

[Opossum]

I always thought that a Polar Bear mauling would have been cool for their Final Smash.



*Ba dum tss*

 

[DerfMidWest]

In melee, most of the ICs chaingrabs were escapable with correct DI (at least, after a certain percent) their only true inescapable cg was the handoff, which is hard to do consistently on most characters.

Making ICs dthrow a hard knockdown makes them have an even better techchase move. Bad.

You can't remove all of their CGs, At best you could make them like the melee cgs.

 

[mrbrawl]

maybe they can cause a blizzard and then the polar bear comes out and attacks

 

[fogbadge]

here's hoping they return

 

[mrbrawl]

i think ice the ice climbers will return the are pretty great players

 

[SnowCold]

Melee Icies still relied a lot on grabs.
Their character design makes them perform at their best when grabs are involved. This is why their grab range is absolute crap.
The main question is whether or not they'll just make abusing grab mechanics harder or they'll remove grab abuse somehow and buff the character to make up for that.

Sorry the ay i worded it sounded different than what i meant. what i meant was i wanted them to have a better metagame outside of grabs. in melee you could wavedash dsmash which was devastating. their shorthop was shorter allowing them to do rar bairs and backwards wavedash bairs which i really liked. they could also synchronized ice block safely as a camping method. in brawl most of their moves have very little range. their desynching takes longer and is harder to do. i kinda like it though because nana isn't a total idiot since she gets desynched from everything. i still expect them to have a strong grab game. it's very likely they'll nerf it though, knowing sakurai.

 

[DerfMidWest]

rar is a brawl tech...
Desyncing isn't harder in brawl per se... you don't have the spotdodge/roll desyncs, but its much easier to maintain a controlled desync in brawl than in melee.
wavesmashing is pretty punishable as an approach, all of the ICs approaches are (I approach anyway) smashes are easily punished, grabs are CCd and outspaced, etc.

ICs don't have a lot of range in melee either (bair has decent range and blizzard is pree good, but thats really it)

If ICs come back, they will have a strong grab game. Its just the way they are designed.
Unless is becomes impossible to desync during a grab.
which would be stupid, because that is how ICs do like... everything...

 

[dettadeus]

Brawl desyncing is much easier than melee desyncing, IMO. Getting it down initially is difficult, but once you have the main desyncs down (e.g. the Lux Desyncs) you can desync out of practically anything directly into Nana performing an action and Popo having full movement options at the same time.

And like .vanir said, it's easier to keep desyncs going in Brawl.

 

[DerfMidWest]

You can also do a lot more with desyncs in brawl.
Although melee desyncs are by no means limited, in brawl they are easier to preform and more forgiving if you make a mistake.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

This is really just a minor thing, but anyone think it would be cool if you could play one of the Ice Climbers solo? Might be a good way of trolling your opponent.

 

[Opossum]

I don't think it'll happen, but it would be pretty funny if it occurred after a pre-Match button combo, in which the condor brings both down at the beginning, but one of them doesn't get off and is carried away. Just for the humor.

 

[dettadeus]

I've done better with Sopo than with both climbers sometimes lol, mostly in the MK matchup because people start doing really unsafe crap and forgetting he still has a chaingrab and THAT FAIR.

You could just kill off Nana at the beginning of each of your stocks if you wanted to main Sopo though.

 

[DerfMidWest]

I dunno about brawl ICs, but sometimes I'll do better with sopo when I'm focusing too much on complex techy desync ****.

 

[Thrillhouse-vh.]

Watch as they try to remove IC's chain grab but make it only easier to perform AGAIN.




Or just make it so Nana can't grab people at all. To make up for it Desyncing will be incredibly easier.

 

[DarkAres]

I'd love if the Ice Climbers took a page from BlazBlue and made it so you could simultaneously and yet individually control the climbers at once (like Carl).

Like you do an A attack with the lead Climber, but if you press A again or forward A, the back climber moves forward to do an attack. But with some attacks they would still attack simultaneously; it's only some where you can have sort of "individual commands".

Might be hard to implement given Smash's simplistic control system.

 

[Big-Cat]

I think a mix of Millia Rage and Carl would be pretty cool and original.

I like the idea of pressuring and sandwiching the opponent with Popo and Nana.

 

[Hypercat-Z]

I think they should be improved, making them more powerful but at the same time making the second ice climber easyer to be be sweeeped out. It would be like Vega in Street Fighter 2: once you break his claw he loses half of his might.
Also, I think it would be funny if they would fight against Lololo and Lalala in the story mode.
As I told elsewhere, in my ideal structure of the story mode, each character has half of the story on his own, comprensive of esclusive path and esclusive bosses. And despite the fact they belong to the Kirby's universe, Lololo and Lalala would be purrfect antagonists for Popo and Nana.

 

[TrueJedi21]

seeing as they made it from Melee to Brawl, I think they have a good chance, but I wish they would be removed..it could open room for some different retro characters...

 

[Swamp Sensei]

seeing as they made it from Melee to Brawl, I think they have a good chance, but I wish they would be removed..it could open room for some different retro characters...

It's not like other retro characters won't make it in anyways.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Don't see how removing the Ice Climbers would somehow open up more room, considering they don't hog anything.

 

[TrueJedi21]

Don't see how removing the Ice Climbers would somehow open up more room, considering they don't hog anything.

they take up one roster spot, which could be better used...some people might have to sacrifice their favorite characters...believe me if we could keep everyone and still add 10+ characters I would love it

 

[Swamp Sensei]

.believe me if we could keep everyone and still add 10+ characters I would love it

but I wish they would be removed.

You were saying?

Look, the majority of people here don't want cuts if they can help it. Removing the Ice Climbers is a very odd choice. Why them? Even if they stayed we will still get a new retro character.