Breaking the Ice - Ice Climbers DLC Discussion Thread - Under New Ownership!

[TrueJedi21]

You were saying?

Look, the majority of people here don't want cuts if they can help it. Removing the Ice Climbers is a very odd choice. Why them? Even if they stayed we will still get a new retro character.

yeah, I wan't even considering removing them until I watched SpoodBeest's video on SSB4 cuts and he just made it make sense...I wouldn't complain if they stayed or left

 

[SmashChu]

yeah, I wan't even considering removing them until I watched SpoodBeest's video on SSB4 cuts and he just made it make sense...I wouldn't complain if they stayed or left

I watched part of his video. He said Mewtwo was cut for Lucario when we know that is not true. I don't think what he is going to say will hold much water.

 

[Yobolight]

Is it true that ICs are confirmed not to be in Smash4?

 

[FalKoopa]

Is it true that ICs are confirmed not to be in Smash4?

No. Where did you hear that?

 

[[Corn]]

Hopefully, the little guys will make it back for being such a unique character. Currently they would suit the art style quite nicely.

 

[FrozenHobo]

Hopefully they'll be back. I wouldn't mind reworked grab mechanics to prevent CGs. I've been maining them since melee, so it would be more than a little frustrating for them to be left out, especially after the Wii Fit Trainer gets announced :/

 

[[Corn]]

Hopefully they'll be back. I wouldn't mind reworked grab mechanics to prevent CGs. I've been maining them since melee, so it would be more than a little frustrating for them to be left out, especially after the Wii Fit Trainer gets announced :/

I wouldnt mind the grabs as long as they arent infinite, been playing them since melee. The desyncs must stay for them to be a character I would choose again.

 

[FrozenHobo]

I wouldnt mind the grabs as long as they arent infinite, been playing them since melee. The desyncs must stay for them to be a character I would choose again.

Desyncs are pretty much the most fun thing about the character. The way Nana works makes it impossible to remove the desyncs, anyway. Hopefully when/if they return we can get some more fun tricks, like the jumping Nana from Melee.

 

[[Corn]]

Desyncs are pretty much the most fun thing about the character. The way Nana works makes it impossible to remove the desyncs, anyway. Hopefully when/if they return we can get some more fun tricks, like the jumping Nana from Melee.

I liked the Nana Magnetism from Brawl. Their recovery is something that is very hard to do right.

 

[FrozenHobo]

I liked the Nana Magnetism from Brawl. Their recovery is something that is very hard to do right.

I'm going to get some flak for saying it, but I like the Brawl iteration of the character better so far as the characters themselves felt much more solid. Melee ICs were kind of a mess, mechanically. The only draw back with Brawl is the CGs. The tether recovery was a fantastic addition, but so easily punished that it balanced itself out.

 

[[Corn]]

I'm going to get some flak for saying it, but I like the Brawl iteration of the character better so far as the characters themselves felt much more solid. Melee ICs were kind of a mess, mechanically. The only draw back with Brawl is the CGs. The tether recovery was a fantastic addition, but so easily punished that it balanced itself out.

This was nice, though I didnt mind the grabs much. Melee climbers were solid, but Nana and recovery were terrible. I definitely liked Brawl over melee in the Ice Climbers area.

 

[Kapus]

Looking forward to seeing the Ice Climber's HD parkas. :>

 

[DakotaBonez]

I suspect that in the next smash we will only play as one Climber at a time as 8 Climbers on the 3DS screen at once would cause lag. I also think that playing as one at a time stays more true to their original game.

 

[grizby2]

I suspect that in the next smash we will only play as one Climber at a time as 8 Climbers on the 3DS screen at once would cause lag. I also think that playing as one at a time stays more true to their original game.

what if they were "cosmetically" two people this time around? you'd still be ice "climbers"

 

[Curious Villager]

We could maybe also get one Climber in the 3DS version (and the other as an alt) and the usual two in the Wii U version. I would still prefer to have them both in both games though. It's a unique little feature they both got going on.

 

[[Corn]]

I can see them having different characters in each version of the game. They have different stages and that will encourage others to buy them both. Regardless HD parkas will break the game.

 

[HarryTheChin]

Let Nana have some of the spotlight you inconsiderate piece of Popo!

 

[Flor@]

I'm with the idea of maintaining the difficulty of the IC's chaingrabs, and leaving them in SSB4, but simply setting a limit on them. How many times you can chaingrab could either be determined by some sort of damage limit, or by the number of times the opponent is grabbed. Meaning perhaps once 50% damage has been done by the chaingrabbing process, the opponent could be turned into an icicle and thrown into the air, forcing the ICs to either combo into it or back off somehow. Same idea with the "# of grabs" limit.

(Yes, I'm basically making a Frankenstein out of the ideas I liked the most in this thread)

Once this is done, you could probably up the ante when it comes to the IC's general attack priority and maybe even grab range. Have a sure way for them to desync as always, and you've got yourself a fun, awesome, mostly balanced duo. Just like they should have been in Brawl. I actually think they were fun and balanced in Brawl, because you mostly only see devastating CGs in tournament settings, and I'm guessing that these settings are more regulated and if it becomes a problem, then the ICs could certainly be banned. PLUS infinite chaingrabs are impossible in multi/party brawl unless people just love watching infinite combos that much. Also, there are known ways to avoid that tiny grabrange from getting to you if you're careful enough, or use certain abilities. (Like Snake holding a grenade so that if grabbed, it will blow up in his and the IC's faces)

Basically, Ice Climbers should be an easy fix for SSB4. I don't see a reason to remove them as they're unique (and adorable, as some have remarked), and potentially they are one of the PILLARS of what Smash Bros is. I mean, two characters being controlled at once? Desyncing? Chaingrabs? Classic characters from the 1980s? An immense set of amazing moves that can be performed because of desyncing? Split-second timing skill "split" between the two characters? Where else do you see this sort of stuff?

The Ice Climbers deserve to be in SSB4, whether they're completely redone somehow or they're quite the same with the needed, SMALL tweaks made to them. I don't see why they should be kicked out instead the boring, near-clone characters first.

 

[Wiipodicus]

I dont think they will get in, I remember reading about how they were chosen to be the 8-Bit representors for melee, but Pit kind of did the same thing in brawl

 

[[Corn]]

I dont think they will get in, I remember reading about how they were chosen to be the 8-Bit representors for melee, but Pit kind of did the same thing in brawl

Ice Climber is one of two games directed by longtime Nintendo producer Kenji Miki. It is also the first video game programmed by Kazuaki Morita. He considered his work on Ice Climber to be a "warm-up" before becoming a main programmer on Super Mario Bros. Morita was later credited with central programming roles in numerous titles within the Super Mario Bros. series, The Legend of Zelda series, and in Star Fox 64.

If that doesnt scream iconic then I dont know what would. Hell some Systems came bundled with the game.

 

[Wiipodicus]

Ice Climber is one of two games directed by longtime Nintendo producer Kenji Miki. It is also the first video game programmed by Kazuaki Morita. He considered his work on Ice Climber to be a "warm-up" before becoming a main programmer on Super Mario Bros. Morita was later credited with central programming roles in numerous titles within the Super Mario Bros. series, The Legend of Zelda series, and in Star Fox 64.

If that doesnt scream iconic then I dont know what would. Hell some Systems came bundled with the game.

I hope this means IC is pretty much a gurantee for smash bros 4!

 

[[Corn]]

I hope this means IC is pretty much a gurantee for smash bros 4!

Well, It was one of the reasons they were in melee.

 

[Kapus]

I dont think they will get in, I remember reading about how they were chosen to be the 8-Bit representors for melee, but Pit kind of did the same thing in brawl

Why exactly would that stop them? It didn't prevent them from getting into Brawl. And Brawl had two retro characters!

 

[[Corn]]

http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/07/03/creating-super-smash-bros-for-wii-u-and-3ds?page=2

If y'all want a read here is one.

Trouble with putting Icies on 3DS due to technical limitations, which was expected, which basically means they have been developing the character and they have a high chance of returning in some form.

 

[oxyborb]

I feel like Olimar raises the chances of IC returning. Olimar is a "multiple character character," and if they're finding a way to make him work, then then can find a way to make the IC work.

I don't know. Ice Climbers are the ****ing best. I don't know if I'll even buy a Wii U if they aren't returning.

 

[onlyaaron17]

Lol all you guys want to nerf IC infinite when he already has terrible grab range. Brings out the worse in players in brawl resulting to the most douchey playstyle. Yeah all of you know the try hard gimp nana and run all day. Then you wanna go all aggro if popo lol. Thr character already has a ridiculous learning curve that probably makes so many who thought to main them rage a couple of times. Anyway, the chain grab at least gives one character in the game and un-masahable move, which is nice, but is really hard to get in and is mostly used from a punish. If we cut that wed have to result to so much juggle game with u air and such.

 

[[Corn]]

Lol all you guys want to nerf IC infinite when he already has terrible grab range. Brings out the worse in players in brawl resulting to the most douchey playstyle. Yeah all of you know the try hard gimp nana and run all day. Then you wanna go all aggro if popo lol. Thr character already has a ridiculous learning curve that probably makes so many who thought to main them rage a couple of times. Anyway, the chain grab at least gives one character in the game and un-masahable move, which is nice, but is really hard to get in and is mostly used from a punish. If we cut that wed have to result to so much juggle game with u air and such.

I dont think anyone is wanting to directly nerf Icies.

What people want, is for Icies to remain the best grab/whiff punisher in the game whilst retaining other basic abilities. Stuff like SoPo's 50% d-throw is stupid, as is blizzard being nearly unbeatable by characters without extremely fast and long hitboxes who lack projectiles. People tend to mention that Icies have a few 90-100:0 matchups and attribute it to the grabs, but in actuality it is due to blizzard literally making characters like sheik or ganon die.

Ive mained Icies for the past 2 years, and yes they can be frustrating at times. Its also called a matchups specific playstyle, you dont get mad at opposing playstyles because they are "gay", you get mad at playstyles that are extremely easy to use and reap large benefits. An example of that being planking or being MK in general.

Coming from a multiple fighting game background, having a character that has a high skill infinite on the cast is acceptable as long as the players best option against said character is to not to be that character or the character doesnt have a large advantage over the other similarly ranked characters in the game.

 

[Flor@]

Coming from a multiple fighting game background, having a character that has a high skill infinite on the cast is acceptable as long as the players best option against said character is to not to be that character or the character doesnt have a large advantage over the other similarly ranked characters in the game.

Yes, yes, this is the stuff. People complain like ICs are so broken and their infinite grabs make them unstoppable. Definitely not true. It takes a heck of a lot of skill and practice and hours, and even still, it's not guaranteed that the chaingrabs are going to work out in actual fights. Those who are serious about the game surely know of the CGs, and always do what is necessary to avoid being grabbed by the ICs. And punishing the ICs for trying.

Honestly, I feel like the ICs are pretty good as they are, though what I would like to see in SSB4 is a reduction in their big chaingrab dependency, more reliable ways to become and stay desynced, and DEFINITELY a less terrible Final Smash.

Basically, lower the giant learning curve (for CGs and desyncing maneuvers) but keep them dynamic and balanced.

 

[[Corn]]

Yes, yes, this is the stuff. People complain like ICs are so broken and their infinite grabs make them unstoppable. Definitely not true. It takes a heck of a lot of skill and practice and hours, and even still, it's not guaranteed that the chaingrabs are going to work out in actual fights. Those who are serious about the game surely know of the CGs, and always do what is necessary to avoid being grabbed by the ICs. And punishing the ICs for trying.

Honestly, I feel like the ICs are pretty good as they are, though what I would like to see in SSB4 is a reduction in their big chaingrab dependency, more reliable ways to become and stay desynced, and DEFINITELY a less terrible Final Smash.

Basically, lower the giant learning curve (for CGs and desyncing maneuvers) but keep them dynamic and balanced.

There we go, this is exactly the mindset players should have when discussing tactics.

Though I still hate that when people bring up the 100:0 matchups, which normally are actually due to Blizzard being so goddamn good against physical fighters, and use them against IC in general.

 

[Flor@]

Hm, I'm actually pretty new to the whole serious SSB forum scene and such, so I'm unfamiliar with popular tactics used by pros other than those which are quite in my face all the time. Down B is pretty great, I like the Blizzard, but I had no idea it was amazingly powerful against some.

Although, I do think I exaggerated a bit when I said ICs are completely dependent on CGs, I mean... desyncing is pretty great on its own. But I think I got the point through that ICs would probably be pretty boring and probably a little below mid-tier with no chain grabs at all. Even with the pretty decent smashes, the blizzards, and pretty nice Up B, and... decent AI on Nana which is only rarely completely useless and game-costing... the chaingrabs are a PART of the ICs.

That isn't to say something very different can't be done with the ICs. What'd be amazing to see is not just a bunch of the same thing in all of the moves (hammer hammer hammer moves) but moves that if timed a certain way (with the help of desync), when used together can produce different effects.

So, take the ice blizzard for example. Say Popo has a reddish ice blizzard and Nana has a bluish one. When separate, they have effects like temporary slowed time effects or higher damage respectively, but together they, say, will freeze the target (as is done already, but is dependent on other factors), or hit-stun + attract the target to lead into a combo, or do some healing to the ICs, or even become a sort of smash-like attack.

And as a bonus, I'd love to be able to FULLY control Nana when Popo cannot move at all, or when Popo is in the process of dying + not being able to input commands at all. I don't see why not, you know?

TL;DR:

• Without MAJOR changes to how ICs are ingame, I think ChainGrabs could definitely stay, to a certain extent, at least. And still be balanced.
• Let's remember that the ICs are very unique, and a lot can be done with them, AND they're from a very old game, so why not mix them up a bit in SSB4? Might be kind of a weird place to do development on a franchise, but hey where is the rule-book that says one cannot?

 

[Britex]

Removing any form of chaingrabs is removing depth, as simple as that.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

Removing any form of chaingrabs is removing depth, as simple as that.

Depth isn't always good. Chain Grabbing is nothing more than tedious, it's kind of a filthy playstyle and it certainly isn't fun fighting against someone who can kill you in one grab. I feel that a duo-team character has so much more potential than simply just being a 1-hit kill machine. Ice Climbers actually do have potential to have a lot more depth than they have right now. I know that it's hard to master and all, but I'd rather that skillful Ice Climbers players can show their skills in a manner that doesn't feel so dirty.

 

[[Corn]]

Depth isn't always good. Chain Grabbing is nothing more than tedious, it's kind of a filthy playstyle and it certainly isn't fun fighting against someone who can kill you in one grab. I feel that a duo-team character has so much more potential than simply just being a 1-hit kill machine. Ice Climbers actually do have potential to have a lot more depth than they have right now. I know that it's hard to master and all, but I'd rather that skillful Ice Climbers players can show their skills in a manner that doesn't feel so dirty.

Fun is entirely subjective, as is the term dirty.

Unless it impacts something that matters in competitve play, not many people will dislike it other then that they dont like the mechanic itself.

 

[Flor@]

Make CGs easier to learn (not easier to time, just easier to learn the timing to). But nerf them. Damage limit, time limit, etc.
Make desync less dangerous or more simple.
Change B+down so that it can't be exploited for 100:0 matchups.

I mean really. What else can you do to the ICs? They're probably not going to be getting any GOOD new franchises, and they're already a bit of a hassle to work with, given their uniqueness. What are the odds they'll do notable development to the ICs in SSB4?

But if you must think outside of the box, which I do enjoy, What can be done to them? Brainstorm, mates?

 

[MasterOfKnees]

Fun is entirely subjective, as is the term dirty.

Unless it impacts something that matters in competitve play, not many people will dislike it other then that they dont like the mechanic itself.

Problem is that their current playstyle heavily impacts competitive play, they're pretty broken, and imbalance isn't fair or fun. This time around we're striving to balance the game as much as possible, which means that ICs will no matter what either just get heavy nerfs or a change of playstyle.

I'd like for the chain grabbing to be removed, but desynch Popo and Nana a bit more. In that way they do get a deserved nerf as the chain grabbing is gone and they'll be easier to split, but the desynch will also allow for some even more crazy combos which will also require a lot of skill. I'd like to see them be a lot more situational and see what people can do with that, instead of just see them do the same thing over and over.

 

[[Corn]]

Problem is that their current playstyle heavily impacts competitive play, they're pretty broken, and imbalance isn't fair or fun. This time around we're striving to balance the game as much as possible, which means that ICs will no matter what either just get heavy nerfs or a change of playstyle.

I'd like for the chain grabbing to be removed, but desynch Popo and Nana a bit more. In that way they do get a deserved nerf as the chain grabbing is gone and they'll be easier to split, but the desynch will also allow for some even more crazy combos which will also require a lot of skill. I'd like to see them be a lot more situational and see what people can do with that, instead of just see them do the same thing over and over.

They dont impact play heavily....I dont understand.

IC chain grabs in both melee and brawl do nothing to upset the metagame.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

They dont impact play heavily....I dont understand.

IC chain grabs in both melee and brawl do nothing to upset the metagame.

When they're the second highest on the tier list and create their own S tier solely because of the chain grab then yes, it does upset the metagame and impact the competitive play heavily.

 

[[Corn]]

When they're the second highest on the tier list and create their own S tier solely because of the chain grab then yes, it does upset the metagame and impact the competitive play heavily.

Tier does not determine metagame imbalance nor are chaingrabs why IC are high. The recent tier list is terrible anyways....Mid tier D3? Ruined all those mid tier tournies why dont you.

An imbalance in the metagame is something that becomes over centralized, impacts all levels of play by limiting options, and generally has a negative effect on all other characters or tactics. Meta knight is undeniably one of them. He is the most used character by far, has no weaknesses that are exploitable through any means other then human error, is a problem at all levels of play, and every characters placement on the tier list has a large part due to the matchups vs Metaknight. If MK was removed the tier list would change so drastically it wouldnt be funny.

Generally you can tell if something is an imbalance in the metagame if when removed, it has a large positive effect in the entire game. Remove MK and the tier list goes wonky and the counterpick system becomes more functional as well as every character having to learn a secondary to account for weaknesses. Remove IC CG and....IC go down on the tier list as well as the characters that have an advantage on them. The tier list would generally stay the same. Literally nothing major would change besides directly nerfing IC as no other characters are buffed due to that one techniques removal.

IC have weaknesses, counterpick characters/stages, and Nana's AI. You cant main IC without having some sort of secondary in case of a terrible stage or counterpick character. The character also has an enormous learning curve as well.

If you would of read the entire thread, one of the main reasons as to why IC are high on the tier list is because desynced blizzard literally is a wall against 60% of the cast. It completely negates characters who dont have good reach/projectiles ability to do anything like Sheik/Ganon/Falcon. Hell, it even removes Olimars ability to pikmin camp, which is a huge factor in all of his matchups. Due to them being 2 characters, characters that rely on chaingrabs are worsened like Falco. Even their godly up air determins some matchups.

IC are definitly an amazing character, but in no way to they imbalance the metagame to the point in which all matchups favor the character because of a specific tactic. The grab is just a thing that changes a matchup and forces your opponent to think differently then any other matchup in the game, and some people refuse to use the tactics that put IC at a disadvantage. Dont be stupid and rush into a character who has the best whiff punish in the game.


Question, did you believe that IC in melee imbalanced the metagame with wobbling?

 

[Bowserlick]

What if the Ice Climbers were permanently attached to a short belay.

Each Ice Climber would have their own weight. When one Ice Climber is hit, they drag the other one which helps them cancel out momentum and/or contribute to DI since they are two weighted objects tied together with a flexible string.

 

[[Corn]]

What if the Ice Climbers were permanently attached to a short belay.

Each Ice Climber would have their own weight. When one Ice Climber is hit, they drag the other one which helps them cancel out momentum and/or contribute to DI since they are two weighted objects tied together with a flexible string.

If you are talking about adding it to Brawl, this would arguably be a buff.

If you are talking about a new mechanic that could be introduced in 4, then that would be a very interesting concept. Though from what I initially think it would buff stage control for them but nerf their recovery options or edge game, also would make nanapulting useless.