Brawl v Melee (ft chillindude and g-regulate) Debate

[TheManaLord]

Well, I figured I'd start posting on smashboards again. I've been on gamefaqs lately just because I couldn't stand the influx of new users on this board, it got way too fast for me. I guess it's time to man up eh? I'll post some of the arguments I've been in on Gfaqs, they pertain to everything about Melee v Brawl in a competitive sense, I would LOVE people to pick at my words because honestly I want to be proved wrong. I want to be beaten in this debate because I want Brawl to be a good game, I just can't see it happening.

Remember, this is in reference to competition... not casual play. So when I say "better" it always means competitively.

This post chronicles my debates versus a brawl noob on the gfaqs melee boards... he's pro brawl clearly and I'm pro melee (in terms of competition, I DO NOT think brawl is a BAD game overall for what is, so please don't bash me for that.)

-The physics require more skill and precise aiming

The engine itself is what hinders precision, this is factual. The velocity of movement, fall speed, horizontal and vertical plane movement relationship, larger area to hitbox ratio, and many other countless failed features of the physics model in brawl make the game imprecise. This is not something can be debated.

-Defense isn't overpowered when you consider that defense in Melee terribly weak

Do you even understand what defense is in reference too? The ability to defend yourself from attacks. In melee the shield was balanced, there were many pressure moves that players could use to attack it, and with L-cancelling or just the proper use of moves and spacing many offensives could trump the defense, yet with the wrong choice or movement shield grabbing worked. In brawl, there are practically no safe moves, shield grabbing will grab everything. There is no l-cancel to reduce lag and there are few if any cancellable moves (grapple moves). Not to mention the shield drops much much faster in brawl, so fast that nearly all moves are possible out of your shield as opposed to melee in which grabbing was the only practical option, now the entire movelist of a character is practical out of of a shield instantly.

-equalizer? seriously? does sakurai even know where you came up with that BS?

It's in the dictionary. Sakurai doesn't determine competitiveness, he himself discredits competitive aspects of the game so he is not the deciding factor on this subject. L-canelling is an equalizer in the sense that it gives every character an approach in melee, and it quickens everything they do. It makes all characters more viable, isn't it funny how those it helps the MOST are low tier? Imagine no l cancelling in brawl. Sheik would still be a god, Fox would still be a god, Marth would still be a god.... what about Bowser? A complete and total outlier. L-cancelling balances the game, it equalizes movements in characters.

-there is little to no hitstun to make combos easier to evoid because the old physics made combos sorta cheap depending on the various situtations

Combo's are the hardest thing to pull of consistently in melee, they still require you to use all advanced techniques well, you need tons of prediction and reaction to DI. Combo's are an inherent feature in the game and are certainly not cheap, have you ever watched a video and read a comment that said "wow that falcon combo was cheap!!11!11" no. It's always the opposite. Combo's are a depiction and measure of skill. In brawl there is no such thing.

-grabs are useless in Melee because they can barely kill and set up is yet another term you made up

Several characters have grab kill moves. In all fighting games grabs are NEVER the kill moves, very rarely will they kill. Set up is an obvious term which means it sets your opponent up for another grab or an attack. You must not have made it out of elementary school with your comprehension skills.

-you know this how? are we forgetting how unbalanced Melee is?

It's generally noted in nearly all fighting games, the larger the cast the more unbalanced it is. Especially since the creator himself doesn't balance the game for it's competitive fighting 1v1 nature. Brawl has no equalizer like l-cancelling and with a larger cast with more varied lag landing times... among other things like completely imbalanced recoveries.

-tripping is only lethal to those who can't adjust. It does very little to break the game

Tripping is stupid.

-well of course because he said that competitive play can be painful for some and his game is about having fun with friends and family not winning. You do know that nintendo is a family friendly company right?

Yeah, so? There are people beyond the targeted consumer market that like to play the games they create.



Okay, that was with that guy... in my next post I'll show what chillindude had to say to me and what I had to say back O:

And then what g-reg said to me O:

 

[TheManaLord]

there are no safe moves to avoid getting shield grabbed in brawl? do you even play brawl? spacing air moves is even more important than in melee. it's true that attacking a shield in brawl usually is a disadvantage... unless you know what you're doing. azens lucario is a good example, all he does is attack peoples shield with spaced attacks. then not only can they not shieldgrab, but even dropping their shield into an attack usually doesnt work because of how well azen spaced the move.

Yes, I do play Brawl. It's more important because it's a less viable option to go on the offensive. It's all about spacing you say. Well that inherently limits offensiveness. Let's see. In melee, every move had the ability for the lag to be reduced and thus a good offense with good spacing was the best possible thing you could have. In brawl if it's solely reliant on spacing then that's flawed. Since not every move can be spaced perfectly, whether due to it's range, speed, or some other reason not every move in Brawl has the capability to be perfectly spaced to avoid a shield grab. Can't drop their shield? That sounds like an infinite! They can't shield grab OR drop their shield wowa weewa. That's clearly not true. Sure it may reduce the opponents options, but it's certainly possible to do a move out of the shield fast enough, albeit not a drop but a cancel with an up b perhaps, or a thing called rolling.

at first i was also dismayed at the removal of l-cancelling... but let's think about it. how is it fair that extremely strong air moves also become extremely fast due to l-cancelling? in brawl, a move's animation determines its lag time upon hitting the ground, which actually makes a lot more sense. air moves aren't as overpowered as they were in melee. you cant just sit there with falcon shorthopping knees repeatedly anymore, because the knee is really strong and thus has landing lag.

No good competitive games are completely fair, ever. And it's fair because that happens to EVERYONE's moves. In melee the reduction is 50%, in 64 it was 100%. If the latter was in melee then hell the game would be completely different, but that's not the case. Games don't have to make sense. All moves in melee still had lag, the scale was simply smaller.

and that tier argument is absolute BS. fox, marth and sheik are top tier BECAUSE of l-cancelling. their natural speed coupled with l-cancelling makes them way faster than some low-tiers, giving them a huge advantage. in brawl a character's speed doesn't make or break them like in melee.

Do you remember back when you played the game casually? It must be a long time ago, you've been in the pro community for a very long time. It's a fact that Fox and Sheik with a lil' dabble of marth are still very popular and still considered some of the if not the best characters in that style of play.

How does the same NOT hold true in Brawl? Metaknight is incredible. In every game ever nearly any character with speed is usually dominant, the balance for speed and power has never been greatly achieved. I only make not of Guilty Gear in which Potemkin can still hold his own.

this is byfar the funniest part of the post. in brawl there is no measure of skill?

seriously, i hear this a lot. brawl doesn't take any skill. then why is it that, at 2 consecutive 70-man MD/VA tournies, the top 4 was literally the -exact- same? next week, another MD/VA tourney, and 3 of the top 4 are still up there. what's going on? are these people just incredibly lucky?

I should have said technical skill. There is no technicality in brawl. Nothing consistently technical at least. There are quirky non factor "AT's" but they don't do jack anyways. And that's just playing smart and a natural knack for video games. Playing games competitively for many years will yield good results when going to play another game in a similar manner.

it doesn't matter if you think melee is better competitively, i do too. but the way you talk about brawl is stupid, and thusly you're stupid. also this post was not in defense of the dude you were pissed at, cuz that dude was also dumb (combos r cheap lol)

Being called stupid hurt my feelings =( But beyond that, if you agree with me... then why did you post all that? xD



next is g-regulate... I didn't properly address him on gfaqs so I'll do it here tomorrow, I was too tired on g-faqs and I'm too tired now ;-;

 

[TheManaLord]

Here's what g-regulate had to say to my previous response.

Shielding and doing stuff out of shield isn't some broken strategy, it can be picked apart just like anything else in the game. Grabbing is the prime example, if someone shields too much just grab them. Sure, most characters don't have good throws to abuse and combo with, but a grab still wins a small battle with stupid shield campers. Also, many character's attacks have multiple hits, as well as autocanceling mini-combos, so even if you try to shield and release quick enough to counterattack, they already have a move out to hit you quicker than you can do yours. I don't think chillin was trying to say that theres some textbook offensive strategy that wins over everything, you just have to be smart, shield camping all match won't beat anyone who is good at brawl.

Well, I honestly agree with you. It's not going to win all the time. But what I'm saying is that there are less viable and concrete methods to approach your opponent, when on the offensive there should be some relentless onslaught ability, in melee you could step the speed up and shine like mad and run all over the place. In brawl there are more limited options and an easier time on the defense, this simply decrease viability of offensive. Although it is beatable like you said, it has to be done in the form of guessing, as in when to go for a grab like you said. Playing smart in any game can usually draw the victory, but there is nothing technical that can be done, you can't outplay your opponent you have to outsmart them.

Although there is no l-canceling, there are still ways to combo autocanceled aerials into other things, as well as just a better way to use moves and aerials in general. example: Ganon's dair when started immediately after short hopping, finishes leaving Ganon on the ground with no lag. Done incorrectly, and you land with lag and get punished. Wolf's fair works the same way. Similarly, there are certain aerials that just have minimal lag, and can be followed by other moves. Kirby's bair is a good example, it almost seems as if it we're l-canceled. Knowing how all the moves work and using them efficiently takes tech skill and lots of knowledge. Yes, less tech skill than melee, but the player who is faster with his move transitions is ultimately the better player.

Yeah, I know about autocancelling, it's an inherent feature that's been in every smash game. Minimal lag moves aren't as if they're l-canceled they just have faster recovery, there's no reduction involved it's just fast, but if you rely on these moves for approach and use then the increased effect of reduced knockback in brawl makes that move even less viable forcing you to look to others which causes a whole nother host of issues.

l-canceling and wavedashing elevates every characters game, but the top tiers get the most help. chillin isn't saying that fox shiek and marth arent good without advanced techs, but combined with their abilities, it makes them dominant. They're already-good moves, become better and more effective, hence making them top tier and better than low tiers. low tiers are helped but if they high tiers can do the same thing, then its not much of an advantage.

Well low tiers/mid tiers towards the end of the melee popularity (BB before brawl lol) were playing significantly higher than ever before, l-cancelling really gave them a whim of unpredictability and just let their games advance, albeit much slower than the dominant characters that are more easily accessible and have more known information, but it still helped them and I am sticking by the fact that a non AT sheik is better against a non AT bowser than if they both have AT's.

lol id like to point out that this quote alone legitimizes all of chillindude's arguments. When you say "everyone else", you must mean all of gamefaqs and other noobs that try to make hollow brawl arguments without any real competitive brawl or melee experience. Yea, i wouldn't want to listen to their thoughts on competitive brawl either.

I think brawl is too different of a game for melee professionals to automatically have a hierarchy on knowledge and experience, the metagame is nothing like melee. And I do have a modicum, albeit not as much as chilling clearly, of experience in both games, so I hope that wasn't an insult to me.

Metaknight is good but is he dominant? No one really knows who is "dominant" yet, the game hasn't been out too long, usually the better player can pick close to anyone and win. Also, many other characters that aren't terribly fast fit in that same "dominant" category, such as DDD, snake and marth.

Okay, I agree it may be too early to tell. But Marth is a fast character, his run speed isn't shabby and that's not the main issue. The speed at which his moves come out and the lag afterwards it was I determine to be a major contributor to the category called speed. Of which DDD has fast nair bair tilts and his CG and his projectile... Snake is a very unique character and nothing about him is very fast, so I can't really say anything there.

You are wrong, if there was no technicality in brawl then everything would be super easy to do and no one would ever self-death or mess up their moves. Unfortunately people lose matches all the time because they mess up what they are trying to do because of doing it incorrectly. Yes, melee is more technical and hard on the fingers. You still need to know what you are doing in brawl, i'll put it blunt, ITS HARD TO LEARN. yes, there are things in brawl that good players can do that you can't. Snakes sliding usmash is a little more than a non-factor, and takes some practice and timing to do correctly. Ganon's dair as previously mentioned earlier also must start at the beginning of the jump in a small frame of time, or else you land with lag. Simply assuming that brawl's techs are easy simply shows that you don't know any actual brawl techs. Why aren't there advanced techs? because the game just came out and people whine and complain about the lack of them, rather than actually trying to find them and practice. they want to be told everything about the game and dismiss other peoples points without direct evidence, rather than exploring it themselves

Yeah I admit maybe saying "no" technicality is the wrong thing, but it simply means in comparison. Everything requires some amount of technicality albeit an infinitesimal or non advanced ways. In Brawls case simply mastery of the inherent game mechanics is the tech skill. Knowing how to play and how not to get yourself killed is a basic function of the games dynamic. Admitting again, I do know that there are a few character specific difficult techniques likes snakes dash attack u smash cancel or whatever it's called if it has a name these days. Autocancelling shouldn't be considered advanced. I'm dismissing it because WE KNOW WHAT TO LOOK FOR. We've had a deep smash series for years, we know what the basic engine has produced, this game is incredibly different and intentionally limited by the creator, so I think we have a right to be pessimistic and to jump to conclusions.




I know its a lot of stuff to read but could somebody please comment on these discussions that have happened

 

[Ojanya]

I basically agree with all your points. It's not so much that Brawl is bad, because it isn't. It's a great game. It's just the fact that since there's a game so much better for competitive play, that it almost hurts you to have to play a game worse if you want the series to live on.

Honestly, I don't see myself playing smash too much longer if Melee dies. (Or never comes back to life?) Brawl is fun, and I enjoy the most technical aspect of it there is in my opinion, which is the Ice Climbers. It reminded me of Melee when I first started playing them. The only problem was, I mastered the technical aspect of the throws in only about a day.

I'll probably sit back a bit and focus on other things while I see how smash turns out. I hope I didn't offend anyone with this post, I was just posting how I feel.

A few more things people have said that I agree with, not quoted word for word, sorry, I don't remember your names either:

-In Melee, you saw a line. And on one side, were the pros. You saw them pulling off all those amazing combos and moves. You watched, learned, and practiced them a ton. Eventually, you see that line so closely, that you're on the other side, with them. It's really cool to see the progress you've made, and it gives you even more reason to keep going. I'm not feeling any of that in Brawl. Mainly because of the physics engine, which can be fixed.

-In Melee, there were these "OH SNAP" moments where someone pulled something crazy off, and everyone in the room went wild. I don't see any of that in Brawl.


If anyone reads all of that, thank you. I hope to get some intellegent responses.

 

[Pi]

There is nothing to debate...Melee is a better more complex game than Brawl.

Melee has no future, brawl has a semi-bright one.

Melee is more 'competitive', because it is deeper. Brawl is not, will not be, as deep as melee is.


In terms of which game is 'better', well THAT comes down to personal opinion, if you want to be specific and judge on depth well then, as I said, there is no debate.

Competitiveness also varies from person to person, Brawl will be competitive, people will compete on it, but melee is and always will be deeper than brawl.

The gap between 'competitive' and 'casual' in melee was much larger than in brawl due to it's depth. The mountain you had to climb to be good at melee is steeper than that in brawl.


Brawl is the next the series, so people will play it regardless of whether or not it is better than melee, because that's the way things are. If brawl were a **** game, the series would die out, because you wouldn't hear about melee, only brawl.

Brawl, and it appears many other games, was dumbed down so that everyone could be 'good' at it because that would bring in the most money.

That's all it is man, money this money that. The majority of the population would be more apt to buy a game they thought they were good at than a game they knew they were **** at. Everybody likes to win, not everyones willing to work for it. The easier you can make it the more sales you'll have...






I think the brawl pro's are going to be the ones the game comes naturally too. Mindgames and spacing and knowing what moves work where, they're just things you figure out as you play. Whereas in melee wavedashing and L-canceling and teching and that stuff, those were extra.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Lump me in with Greg and Chillin. As a Diddy player, no ones defense really works well against two items and constant tripping.

 

[Ryuker]

K I read it all but I need some more time to comment on this accurately. Atleast this gives a lot more insight in the debate then the constant talk about this is not melee 2.0 which doesn't help the discussion at all. You both bring up some good points. After reading this I realized that camping, as there is so much discussion about lately, isn't as broken as players make it seem. Maybe we are still expecting too much from offence or want it too be as offensive as melee which is clearly isn't. That said though I don't think you only have to resort to camping yet and play snake only. It's aparent though that we are playing the waiting game a lot more with this game.

I would like to comment about defence in melee. I think smash has always been defensive only it's been active defensive. I mean by that that you stay close to your opponent but do wait them out and such. If I watch most pro players they seem to employ this type of strategy as well. I also think when playing vs players you don't know one of the smartest ways to play is let them do the first move so you can counter it. So the better way is to play defensive and camp in melee and in that sense I wonder how much does it really differ from brawl.

Thanks for posting this. Could you post a url of the discussion thread from gamefaqs?

 

[KingDiDiDiddy]

There is nothing to debate...Melee is a better game than Brawl.

Melee has no future, brawl has a semi-bright one.

I laugh when people say stuff like this because this statement is merely opinion... competitive and other sorts yes i agree but some people enjoy Brawl more than Melee... I personally am one of them so I consider Brawl a better game than Melee but I don't state "Brawl IS better than Melee" speaking for everyone else.

 

[Pi]

I laugh when people say stuff like this because this statement is merely opinion... competitive and other sorts yes i agree but some people enjoy Brawl more than Melee... I personally am one of them so I consider Brawl a better game than Melee but I don't state "Brawl IS better than Melee" speaking for everyone else.

Yea, I might change that statement, it's hard to phrase what I meant but melee just had more to it than brawl does. More factors come into play in melee than in brawl, factors you can alter and use to your advantage, whereas in brawl everything is as it seems, it's pretty much face value.

Brawl is like...'Here is what you have to work with, go.'
Melee is like...'Heres what we've given you, here's some more intricate stuff, figure out how to put the two together, go'



Maybe I'll say melee is more complex/intricate than brawl.

 

[KingDiDiDiddy]

Yea, I might change that statement, it's hard to phrase what I meant but melee just had more to it than brawl does. More factors come into play in melee than in brawl, factors you can alter and use to your advantage, whereas in brawl everything is as it seems, it's pretty much face value.

Brawl is like...'Here is what you have to work with, go.'
Melee is like...'Heres what we've given you, here's some more intricate stuff, figure out how to put the two together, go'



Maybe I'll say melee is more complex/intricate than brawl.

yes this is very true

the reason I enjoy Brawl more is because of how much simpler things are. And how basically mind games are way more essential.

I enjoy games that rely more on mind games and less technical skill. I play a lot of poker and have to predict what opponents have and what not and make reads on them as the poker game goes on. Same thing applies for me in Brawl, I have to look for what opponents constantly do to predict their next move which will make me decide what to do all the while trying to make myself look not as predictable.

when i want to go for a combo game i usually play some Street Fighter 2 Turbo/Capcom vs SNK because IMO these games were meant for combos and such and smash has always tried to be a friendlier party game and less of a focus on the competitive side.

The one thing that upsets me with the rise of a lot of the noobs is if they beat a wide known pro in brawl on like Wifi they come to these boards saying "ZOMG I beat__________ he is like the best too" this couldnt be further from the truth. Brawl and Melee are two totally different monsters while SOME skill from Melee does carry over to Brawl, the old Melee pros dont have too much of an advantage over anyone else just starting to get competitive because they have to explore the game as well.

Brawl = Most Mind Games/Little Tech Skill

Melee = A lot Tech Skill/some Mindgames

its really whatever you prefer

 

[Meta Ryu]

You want to br proven wrong so badly? Fine.

Premise 1# - Brawl is not as deep as melee
Teching, wave dashing etc. and alllll the other things that made melee deep and great are gone. Battles are not so much about massive time and effort into comboing as they are actualy gameplay of said characters. Gameplay is slower (or at least feels slower in general) and characters are more floaty.

Premise 2# - Brawl is more fin then melee (in general)
More characters, more stages (espcially with custom stages) and final smashes combined with a ton of new content just give more to the average player. In addition lot's of character balance makes even the most notorius of bad characters more fun to play and actually good in vs play(cough* bowser *cough). And finally everything's been tuned up, more shiny and honestly just more fun then melee ever was.

Premise 3# - People want Brawl to be as deep and competitive, if not more so then melee.
Everyone talks about it, the huge brawl vs melee debate. Not as deep, more fun etc. People don't want to admit that brawl could be any less fun then melee was. Especially since 90% of the smash community admit that brawl is more fun. The biggest fallacy is that people think that because brawl is not as deep, that it cannot reach the level of achievemnt/enjoyment/fun that melee had, which they cannot reason because they know brawl is more fun.

Conclusion - Epicness
People need to get their heads around this. They need to stop, take their hand from the controller (and the other hand from the other place too...) and truly think about this.

Melee is not as deep as brawl, brawl might very well never be. But is that really what made it fun for us? Was it the giants of melee like Ken, Anika, Bombsoldier etc. that gave it's legendary status? Was it Isai and his massive comboing ability that made the game what it was for us? No.

It was those moments, however few when we experienced that thing. That intangible but all too real feeling, of complete, and utter...

AWESOMENESS.

And competition, fun, whatever, the two become one in the same for alot of us. And I'm sorry but as long as brawl is out we're gonna play it. Because even though it's NOT as deep, it's far more enjoyable. Especially when competing at as high a level as you can.

So if this didn't convince you, if your'e still living in that dark place where competition laughs in your face and crushs your dreams of Brawl being great. Then remember this.

"Competiton is the spirits of two or more people, striving at once torawrds a common goal. And though it may seem like they are fighting each other, it is in fact only they themselves that they are testing. To feel that feeling of emotion only experienced by those who put everything into something, and to express it to others."

Thats competition, and anything else you try to make it only cheapens it.
"Truly I am the victor, for I can see right through you." -Marth, taunt and counter

 

[Azen Zagenite]

=^_^=

All these Brawl/Melee arguments are funny, such a massive clash of opinions. As for me, I like Brawl more than Melee. I think Brawl is better than Melee. I like playing smart than being technical. And some people like playing technical and flashy. A lot say Melee is 'better' than Brawl because of technical skill; well, that's nice, I honor your opinion. I think Brawl is 'better' than Melee because of how much more thinking is involved.

As for which game is more competitive, depends how you define it. A lot more people now are competing in Brawl than in Melee, so Brawl is more competitive. But defining it by which game is better is harder to do since its just the opinion of what people's favorite quality of smash is.

Just play whatever game you like better and have fun

 

[Cookiez]

Why do you feel Brawl involves much more thinking than Melee? From what i've seen, Sakurai has drastically limited the number of movement / attacking options up to a point where the game has become less complex as a whole, as Less Options = Less thought proccesses calculating the likelyhood of an opponent doing pretty much anything. For example, Dashdancing created opertunities to bait attacks and pivot, whereas this has been eliminated in Brawl, reducing the number of variables you need to think of.

Personally this is why I think it was many times harder to "think" in Melee, whereas in Brawl you have less variables to worry about thus are able to fully analyse certain situations.

You're obviously far greater than me at Smash, so I guess i'd just love to hear it from your point of view.

 

[pockyD]

gee this definitely needed a new thread, i almost felt naked for a sec because of the lack of brawl vs melee threads

 

[DRaGZ]

Hooray. More needless bull****.

 

[TheManaLord]

Looks like I'm getting infamous for my post format ;-;

Brawl = Most Mind Games/Little Tech Skill
Melee = A lot Tech Skill/some Mindgames

Eh, that's only true if there must be a balance between the two sections of play, which there doesn't. I don't think mindgames can be so simply quantified, if anything, due to more variety of movement, melee has more mindgames. Simply because of wavedashing and other movement variables that can happen quickly, there are just more variables that add to the unpredictableness of your opponent.

Premise 1# - Brawl is not as deep as melee
Teching, wave dashing etc. and alllll the other things that made melee deep and great are gone. Battles are not so much about massive time and effort into comboing as they are actualy gameplay of said characters. Gameplay is slower (or at least feels slower in general) and characters are more floaty.

I know it's not, that's what I am saying. I don't understand what you're trying to convey here.

Premise 2# - Brawl is more fin then melee (in general)
More characters, more stages (espcially with custom stages) and final smashes combined with a ton of new content just give more to the average player. In addition lot's of character balance makes even the most notorius of bad characters more fun to play and actually good in vs play(cough* bowser *cough). And finally everything's been tuned up, more shiny and honestly just more fun then melee ever was.

You see, debating fun is not possible. Fun is entirely user defined so I'm not sure where you're going with this. If you're talking about more quantity = more fun that is simply not the case in anything really. You can't just say the game is balanced either, the cast is massive and there are no universal techniques plus the meta game hasn't evolved, as it stands now there are several characters that have more mainstream use than any others so calling that balanced is not the truth.

Premise 3# - People want Brawl to be as deep and competitive, if not more so then melee.
Everyone talks about it, the huge brawl vs melee debate. Not as deep, more fun etc. People don't want to admit that brawl could be any less fun then melee was. Especially since 90% of the smash community admit that brawl is more fun. The biggest fallacy is that people think that because brawl is not as deep, that it cannot reach the level of achievemnt/enjoyment/fun that melee had, which they cannot reason because they know brawl is more fun.

People don't want to admit? There's nothing to admit. Fun is a personal preference and the amount of satisfaction or utility somebody gains from doing something. The amount of happiness acquired in exchange for the time put into it. There are no universal concrete broadly felt level of fun in either game that people feel, you cannot say that Brawl is more fun and that everybody knows it. You talk about logical fallacy's yet I'm not even sure if you comprehend the meaning of it.

VVV assuming you mean Brawl is not as deep as melee

Melee is not as deep as brawl, brawl might very well never be. But is that really what made it fun for us? Was it the giants of melee like Ken, Anika, Bombsoldier etc. that gave it's legendary status? Was it Isai and his massive comboing ability that made the game what it was for us? No.

Well you see this is where things fall apart for you a little bit... you understand this IS in reference to the competitive aspects of the smash series, right? So those ARE the things that made the game for the competitive community, the giants, the technique, the supremacy and satisfaction somebody gains from defeating their opponent. These things are the rushes and fixes for the competitive community.

All these Brawl/Melee arguments are funny, such a massive clash of opinions. As for me, I like Brawl more than Melee. I think Brawl is better than Melee. I like playing smart than being technical. And some people like playing technical and flashy. A lot say Melee is 'better' than Brawl because of technical skill; well, that's nice, I honor your opinion. I think Brawl is 'better' than Melee because of how much more thinking is involved.

As for which game is more competitive, depends how you define it. A lot more people now are competing in Brawl than in Melee, so Brawl is more competitive. But defining it by which game is better is harder to do since its just the opinion of what people's favorite quality of smash is.

Just play whatever game you like better and have fun

Hmmm, yes, this is true, there are clashes of opinions and in practically of this it is just opinions. But there are facts to back some of them up. Like the number of techniques/advanced techniques and such. but beyond that.... I agree with you, people are entitled to their opinions and fun is ENTIRELY a measurement that can only be determined by the self.

Yeah, I don't think competitive can be defined by quantity, I think quality and quantity apply to competition just like anything else. The quality of competition is what I am really interested in, which is more suited for pure competition.

And yeah, I will play melee with some brawl here and there because that's what I find the most fun, but I love to debate ^____________________^

 

[TheManaLord]

gee this definitely needed a new thread, i almost felt naked for a sec because of the lack of brawl vs melee threads

Yeah, I know. But it didn't necessarily fit into any other discussion threads already made due to the sheer amount of it. Many topics repeat themselves, this is a hot topic currently so there's really no reason not to create another topic. It's just a discussion. Let it drop to the bottom instead of bumping it back up.

Hooray. More needless bull****.

Now why go and say something? Cussing is tasteless!

 

[DRaGZ]

A lot of us have already said a lot many different times in many different ways in many different types of posts in many different forums throughout this whole **** board. Frankly, we're all sick and tired of it. Nothing said in this thread is going to go anywhere.

 

[TheManaLord]

A lot of us have already said a lot many different times in many different ways in many different types of posts in many different forums throughout this whole **** bored. Frankly, we're all sick and tired of it.

This is a message board, topics are bound to repeat. If you get tired of it then why are you on one in the first place, why post? Why continue to give it publicity? I'm afraid your anger is overdoing your rationality. Take it easy and ignore it.

 

[pockyD]

it won't drop because you keep replying to yourself

and how does it not fit? if i find you 3 threads that it would fit in, would you ask a mod to close this one?

 

[Samochan]

*subscribes*

I'm interested. :3 But I suck on debate, so... >.> I'll sit back and watch the show. ^_^

 

[Cookiez]

Also, i'd just like to add that KingDiDiDiddy has never experienced competetive smash, and thus should not be spouting nonsense such as:

"Brawl = Most Mind Games/Little Tech Skill
Melee = A lot Tech Skill/some Mindgames"

Which is most obviously false in the way in which less variables, thus instances to trick your opponent have been cut down. People seem to think that a Slower engine automatically entails greater "mindgames". (Hate the Term.) The only mindgame "upside" I can see is that with many less options, there are more possibilities to fully analyse certain situations (Ie. a greater number of Yomi layers) and react based on your prediction.

 

[Meta Ryu]

what I was trying to convey (on the whole) is that Brawl will eventually become more competitive then Melee.

It's just gonna happen.

 

[TheManaLord]

it won't drop because you keep replying to yourself

and how does it not fit? if i find you 3 threads that it would fit in, would you ask a mod to close this one?

Because I don't CARE where it goes, I just wanted to put my input on the subject. Which is what message boards are for, user input. So why don't you stop being so negative and leave it alone. There's no reason for the hostility you're portraying, cut the bitterness.




And yeah, Cookiez restated what I said in one of my above posts with more clarity and more info, that's certainly true. Mindgames are cut down with less technicality in movement form at least.

 

[Meta Ryu]

oh and balance as defined by a general definiton is "that which equals itself". I infer from this that a character is balanced if he is comparable to another character in ability to be used at a high level.

Just cause people aren't using alot of characters as much as others doesn't mean they're not good. I can't find a single character that isn't good at a high level in brawl, whereas in melee the difference was much more noticable for some characters i.e. Bowser, Pichu, Yoshi etc.

 

[CervPurp63]

In my opinion, I don't think that either game is better than the other. They're different. There are things in both games that I liked (i.e. the weight/physics of Melee, but the simplicity of brawl). I think the scarcity of comboes in brawl makes pulling them off that much spectacular. So yea, I'm not taking sides in this debate. Just putting my two cents in. PM me if you have jigglypuff tips for brawl. I'm gonna enter a tournament next week. Wish me luck!

 

[pockyD]

Because I don't CARE where it goes, I just wanted to put my input on the subject. Which is what message boards are for, user input. So why don't you stop being so negative and leave it alone. There's no reason for the hostility you're portraying, cut the bitterness.

why didn't you post this in "the poke center" (lol i didn't even know there was a board for that until just now) then?

bitter? oh no, my life was ruined because you wasted my precious forum space

 

[Meta Ryu]

why don't we try this mana lord? You try to convince me that Brawl won't be/is not competitive?

 

[KingDiDiDiddy]

Also, i'd just like to add that KingDiDiDiddy has never experienced competetive smash, and thus should not be spouting nonsense such as:

"Brawl = Most Mind Games/Little Tech Skill
Melee = A lot Tech Skill/some Mindgames"

Which is most obviously false in the way in which less variables, thus instances to trick your opponent have been cut down. People seem to think that a Slower engine automatically entails greater "mindgames". (Hate the Term.) The only mindgame "upside" I can see is that with many less options, there are more possibilities to fully analyse certain situations (Ie. a greater number of Yomi layers) and react based on your prediction.

well then my bad i guess you know everything so we should all listen to Cookiez since he has all the right answers.

you should get one of those deals where people suscribe to you and you send everyone a text a day for a dollar each and give great words of wisdom.

 

[S2]

Both games are good. Both play very different at a competitive level.

Its not really worth trying to determine which one is superior, since opinions are going to be slated based on the fact that we've only had Brawl for a month and a half and Melee has a 6 year history of competitive play.

I'm sure some will disagree with me, but I don't think its fair to say Brawl isn't technical when things like pivoting still exist and there aren't a lot of players abusing pivot dashdances and other such things because it is much harder than Melee.

Right now it seems that the technical aspects of Brawl are a lot less important and useful than Melee, but we don't know what the tournament scene is going to be like in a few years for Brawl.

I'm not going to make an opinion on which game is better until the Brawl tournament scene has more time under its belt. Melee changed a lot over the years, but Brawl's growth will be different because unlike Melee it has a huge competitive following right front day 1.

At this point both sides are offering really good arguments.

 

[Pi]

I don't think brawls gameplay inspires more mindgames, or has room for more mindgames, it's gameplay just relies more on them.

Whereas in melee, the gameplay relied on tech skill and mindgames.

Brawl it just seems like they took away the tech skill, and left us with the remains. ;(


I do enjoy mindgames, makes you feel smart hahaha, but I don't like games that you run out of stuff to learn and apply quickly, seems like brawl is gonna be one of those games.

They took away a lot of the technical aspect, so it's gonna come down to a lot of fine tuning the same old moves to the point where matches are going to be the first mess up decides it, regardless of the gap in experience/skill between the two players.

Na perhaps that's an extreme case, but my point is in there some where!

 

[KingDiDiDiddy]

Also, i'd just like to add that KingDiDiDiddy has never experienced competetive smash.

as for this part speak for yourself. Just because maybe i dont know exactly what the game mechanics are/what it takes to be good doesnt mean i havent played competitive smash.

define competitive smash please because whenever i play a game (especially for money) it isnt how you play which makes it competitive it is your desire to beat your opponent and vice versa

 

[TheManaLord]

I don't think brawls gameplay inspires more mindgames, or has room for more mindgames, it's gameplay just relies more on them.

Wow, that's the perfect wording for what I am thinking. Seriously. Like that's just perfect. There are less mindgames but they are more important, that's a really good way of putting it. d(^_^)b

 

[KingDiDiDiddy]

and one more thing when i said brawl = more mindgames/less tech skill i didnt mean MORE mindgames than melee i meant MORE mindgames then tech skill in THIS game

 

[TheManaLord]

Ahhh I see, that makes more sense and is a very reasonable statement. You should have emphasized that the mindgames hold dominance over technical skill in Brawl moreso than they do in Melee.

Because in BOTH games mindgames ARE more important, some relative understand and application of technical skill is necessary but the case has been proven time and time again, mindgames are generally more important than technical skill but both are important and necessary.

 

[Yuna]

Well, I figured I'd start posting on smashboards again. I've been on gamefaqs lately just because I couldn't stand the influx of new users on this board, it got way too fast for me. I guess it's time to man up eh? I'll post some of the arguments I've been in on Gfaqs, they pertain to everything about Melee v Brawl in a competitive sense, I would LOVE people to pick at my words because honestly I want to be proved wrong. I want to be beaten in this debate because I want Brawl to be a good game, I just can't see it happening.

Oh, Mana-chan. I want you (and I) to be wrong as well. I'll read through all of your arguments and see if I can refute them but since they'll most probably just echo my sentiments, I probably won't be able to.

I'll try, though.

Scratch that. I read through half of your first post and figured I'd be too busy agreeing with at least 99% of what you said to even bother trying to argue against it (even playing Devil's Advocate).

No, really, the new players need to get over themselves. We're not saying "Brawl is unplayable overall" or that "Brawl sucks a a game". We're just saying that Brawl sucks as a competitive fighting game that it's unplayable on a competitive level. It's too limited, too broken, too campy.

People are free to play it however they like with their friends. Heck, they're free to hold tournaments. But as they're entitled to their opinion, so are we, the vast majority of the Competitive Smashers in the world who've analyzed the game and deemed it unplayable (competitively).

I'll stick around and see how Brawl turns out. I'll try to help the community along so it doesn't grow in a stupid direction ("All items on! Final Smashes for the winz!"). But I can't really see a real future for it.

Brawl will be like Tekken 4. Played by some, played begrudgingly by others and reviled and shunned by a vast majority of people.

By the way, did you, Chillin and G-regulate completely forget about shieldhopped aerials?! I only skimmed the later posts because, hello, wall-of-text, but I didn't see it mentioned.

Spaced aerials/ground-approaches? Too bad, shieldhopped aerials! Marth literally destroys a majority of the cast's approaches because of shieldhopped aerials. I'm not even a good Marth and even I can shieldhop Nair and Fair people into infinity the minute they try to approach.

Then they wise up and it's basically a camp fest. I try to approach with my aerials, then have to retreat momentarily, they try to approach with aerials and then have to retreat to avoid my shieldhopped aerials. And from there it keeps sucking.

 

[lotor611]

i agree with nanalord, and azens comment. but g-reg made some good pionts. still though...years down the road i dont think brawl will be as big as melee was. so many memories and friends made.
(sheds a man-tear)

 

[KingDiDiDiddy]

oh lol i wasnt using that post towards you manalord it was for cookiez but yes i should have emphasized that a little more

 

[The Green Marth]

again with the Melee vs. Brawl debates?
there has been toooo many threads like this, and its starting to anoy me.
Both Brawl and Melee are AWSOME games in thier own way, and whichever is better is mere oppinion. We could sit here till the end of time argueing about which is better when we could be PLAYING them right now. isnt that wat smash bros was all about? having fun?

im starting to miss the good old days when there were 12 characters, a classic mode, and nothing to complain about but bad graphics...

 

[AzN_Lep]

what I'm saying is that there are less viable and concrete methods to approach your opponent, when on the offensive there should be some relentless onslaught ability, in melee you could step the speed up and shine like mad and run all over the place. In brawl there are more limited options and an easier time on the defense, this simply decrease viability of offensive. Although it is beatable like you said, it has to be done in the form of guessing, as in when to go for a grab like you said. Playing smart in any game can usually draw the victory, but there is nothing technical that can be done, you can't outplay your opponent you have to outsmart them.

Why should there be some relentless onslaught ability? There's no reason that Brawl should replicated melee's style of approach. By this logic your arguing that Brawl is flawed because it makes shielding a more viable option and removes unpunishable offensive approaches. Creating a balance between offense and defense shouldn't be seen as a flaw or fix particularly, just a new aspect to the gameplay. While you might not accept spacing as tech skill, but auto canceling alone is a technical feature that can be utilized against shield grabbing.

EDIT: Is out smarting your opponent a bad thing?

In melee the shield was balanced, there were many pressure moves that players could use to attack it, and with L-cancelling or just the proper use of moves and spacing many offensives could trump the defense, yet with the wrong choice or movement shield grabbing worked.

Is Brawl really that much different? Replace melee with brawl and L-canceling with auto canceling and that statement is fully applicable for Brawl. Granted not every attack can be auto canceled to effective evade a grab. Consider melee though, not every l-canceled attack effectively prevented shield grabbing either.