krabbymcnabby
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Jan 11, 2008
- Messages
- 51
I didn't really understand luigi's tornado, do you mean you can use it to fly from the ground? 0.o
-
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Brawl: This **** just got real
- Thread starter Gerbil
- Start date
Gerbil
Smash Champion
I can elaborate a bit on the tornado just from general knowledge.
In Melee, if you performed Mario's tornado fast enough (rapidly tap B) on the ground, you would rise in the air.
In Brawl it is much the same way. However, at any point during the tornado, you can rapidly tap B and rise off of the ground. Or, as in the example I stated (search the new edit for the section about Luigi), you can torando off the stage, and rapidly tap B to rise up in mid-air.
So flying is a bit broad, let's leave more as you can use it to rise in the air lol.
In Melee, if you performed Mario's tornado fast enough (rapidly tap B) on the ground, you would rise in the air.
In Brawl it is much the same way. However, at any point during the tornado, you can rapidly tap B and rise off of the ground. Or, as in the example I stated (search the new edit for the section about Luigi), you can torando off the stage, and rapidly tap B to rise up in mid-air.
So flying is a bit broad, let's leave more as you can use it to rise in the air lol.
This post is SWEET!!! It gives me hope that there will be no more Fox vs Marth, Marth vs Falco, Fox vs Shiek, Shiek vs Captain Falcon and so on and on. 
Hope there will be more info on some other characters.
Anyways great job on the post.
Hope there will be more info on some other characters.Anyways great job on the post.
SynikaL
Smash Lord
Hmm, glad to see some more positive things being mentioned about the game.
Unfortunately, my critical nature is going to make me look like the bad guy again, but oh well.
So basically, the first post is conveying the idea that the game is taking a more character specific direction than Melee by the stripping/mitigation of certain universal subsystems. This sounds great until you actually put the idea under scrutiny.
If this turns out to be true, this is a VERY dangerous gambit by Sakurai. Very few games survive competitively without the pronounced involvement of its universal subsystems. Why? Because without a USS as a leverage tool, tiers become more pronounced as things develop as the inevitable result of characters relying more on the fundamental traits of their move sets. In other words, a strong and versatile USS helps to mitigate any overpowered moves, strategies or characters that will eventually develop -- unless it is deliberately breached through human ingenuity (glitch discoveries). Variety will always provoke tiering -- some things will always function more fundamentally sound than others.
The last two Soul Calibur games are fine examples of sub system breaches that harmed its game play. 2Guard (Soul Calibur 2) and Variable Cancel (SC3) both were results of glitchy sub systems that harmed the meta game (which characters move sets exploited the glitches most effectively).
SF3 Third Strike is an example of a subsystem that just doesn't do enough -- Ken is easily the most complete and overall versatile character in that game, based solely on his move set. Other characters rely mostly on gimmicks (Chun Li and her Super Art 3).
Conversely, there examples of games with strong sub systems -- many people consider these games to be paragons of current console competitive games.
Guilty Gear Series: I've been out of the loop for a long while, but this series has its reputation as one of the most balanced fighters for a reason -- a very intelligent and tight sub system reigning in an otherwise very suspect cast of characters, sponsoring very zany over-the-top action. Were it not for this series' SSs, the series would arguably never work. Last time I heard, the tiers in Accent Core are very tight.
Halo 1: Arguably considered the most skill based FPS seen on consoles for one reason -- the Pistol. Non-competitive players will always whine and moan about its overpowered nature, but the truth is, the Pistol kept every other weapon in the game in check since it was a versatile spawning weapon that was great in all situations, but failed to be the best in few. Pistol always lost against a weapon better suited for the situation. This made the Halo 1 Pistol an integral part of the game's SS (though unintentional). The fact that no such weapon exists in its arguably inferior everything-and-the kitchen-sink sequel is a testament this.
Melee: Strong, highly versatile sub systems are a strong reason not only why the game is so deep, but a large reason why so many of its characters are viable at the highest levels. Anyone who knows anything about Melee cannot deny this -- one needs to simply look as far as the fact that we just had a Jiggs win Pound 3, if I'm not mistaken.
People stating that player's switching between characters (in relation to Brawl) is a testament to how similar the roster plays to each other are not being very intelligent here, and are failing to acknowledge the strong influence of Melee's sub systems.
You'll never get a very balanced game attempting to simply tweak the variables -- there needs to be layers of commonality to rein them in and keep them from getting out of control. It has been proven time and time again. I doubt Sakurai is purposefully taking this approach with Brawl, because it just wouldn't be very intelligent, regardless of what kind of game he wanted to create. I just think we need more time figuring out the system's influences on the characters.
I'm sure this post will be flamed to h3ll since it doesn't completely gel with Wes' and Azen's current optimism. I just hope you all realize how important it is to have people like me who are willing to be contrarian, even if only for the sake of giving the general consensus something to consider.
-Kimosabae
Unfortunately, my critical nature is going to make me look like the bad guy again, but oh well.
So basically, the first post is conveying the idea that the game is taking a more character specific direction than Melee by the stripping/mitigation of certain universal subsystems. This sounds great until you actually put the idea under scrutiny.
If this turns out to be true, this is a VERY dangerous gambit by Sakurai. Very few games survive competitively without the pronounced involvement of its universal subsystems. Why? Because without a USS as a leverage tool, tiers become more pronounced as things develop as the inevitable result of characters relying more on the fundamental traits of their move sets. In other words, a strong and versatile USS helps to mitigate any overpowered moves, strategies or characters that will eventually develop -- unless it is deliberately breached through human ingenuity (glitch discoveries). Variety will always provoke tiering -- some things will always function more fundamentally sound than others.
The last two Soul Calibur games are fine examples of sub system breaches that harmed its game play. 2Guard (Soul Calibur 2) and Variable Cancel (SC3) both were results of glitchy sub systems that harmed the meta game (which characters move sets exploited the glitches most effectively).
SF3 Third Strike is an example of a subsystem that just doesn't do enough -- Ken is easily the most complete and overall versatile character in that game, based solely on his move set. Other characters rely mostly on gimmicks (Chun Li and her Super Art 3).
Conversely, there examples of games with strong sub systems -- many people consider these games to be paragons of current console competitive games.
Guilty Gear Series: I've been out of the loop for a long while, but this series has its reputation as one of the most balanced fighters for a reason -- a very intelligent and tight sub system reigning in an otherwise very suspect cast of characters, sponsoring very zany over-the-top action. Were it not for this series' SSs, the series would arguably never work. Last time I heard, the tiers in Accent Core are very tight.
Halo 1: Arguably considered the most skill based FPS seen on consoles for one reason -- the Pistol. Non-competitive players will always whine and moan about its overpowered nature, but the truth is, the Pistol kept every other weapon in the game in check since it was a versatile spawning weapon that was great in all situations, but failed to be the best in few. Pistol always lost against a weapon better suited for the situation. This made the Halo 1 Pistol an integral part of the game's SS (though unintentional). The fact that no such weapon exists in its arguably inferior everything-and-the kitchen-sink sequel is a testament this.
Melee: Strong, highly versatile sub systems are a strong reason not only why the game is so deep, but a large reason why so many of its characters are viable at the highest levels. Anyone who knows anything about Melee cannot deny this -- one needs to simply look as far as the fact that we just had a Jiggs win Pound 3, if I'm not mistaken.
People stating that player's switching between characters (in relation to Brawl) is a testament to how similar the roster plays to each other are not being very intelligent here, and are failing to acknowledge the strong influence of Melee's sub systems.
You'll never get a very balanced game attempting to simply tweak the variables -- there needs to be layers of commonality to rein them in and keep them from getting out of control. It has been proven time and time again. I doubt Sakurai is purposefully taking this approach with Brawl, because it just wouldn't be very intelligent, regardless of what kind of game he wanted to create. I just think we need more time figuring out the system's influences on the characters.
I'm sure this post will be flamed to h3ll since it doesn't completely gel with Wes' and Azen's current optimism. I just hope you all realize how important it is to have people like me who are willing to be contrarian, even if only for the sake of giving the general consensus something to consider.
-Kimosabae
That was an interesting read. Interception being the dominant form of edgeguarding is the impression I've been getting from the new mechanics, and I've seen so many missed opportunities in videos when a player didn't even try for an intercept.
Yes I agree, everything is very easy to reach with the classic the only drawbacks with it are..
Having to have it attached to the wiimote can annoy some.
It uses batteries.
No rumble.
WastingPenguins
Smash Ace
Synika: You've proven time and time again lately to be one of the most articulate and generally knowledgeable posters around here. It's quite refreshing, keep it up and ignore the hate. As I've got lots of experience with some of those fighters I basically agree with everything you said, especially about the brokenness of SC sequels and the awesome, balanced depth of Guilty Gear.
Synikal, I appreciate you mentioning all those games but I don't really know where you're really trying to take these assumptions. Just because you have to change your strategy for each character, doesn't mean they don't adhere to the universal punishments that spawn from, you know, Brawl's unique battle system itself.
The few universal techniques that were taken out may detract from the standard metagame, but so far we have no idea how much these new character-based advantages lead over the usual skill-based naturals.
Sure a lot of good games like GG have a great way to balance with these universal systems, but that doesn't mean a game that actually tries to balance out unique character-specific advantages will be a bad fighter either. Like I said, Brawl's battle system is universal and balanced enough so far.
So are you trying to say something here, or are you just being skeptic?
The few universal techniques that were taken out may detract from the standard metagame, but so far we have no idea how much these new character-based advantages lead over the usual skill-based naturals.
Sure a lot of good games like GG have a great way to balance with these universal systems, but that doesn't mean a game that actually tries to balance out unique character-specific advantages will be a bad fighter either. Like I said, Brawl's battle system is universal and balanced enough so far.
So are you trying to say something here, or are you just being skeptic?
Jumpinjahosafa
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Sep 21, 2007
- Messages
- 883
Fantastic read.
Loving the whole positive outlook of this thread.. Its just like how me and my friends talk about it.
This got e so much more excited about brawl.
Now I can sleep happy.. Thanks a lot!
Loving the whole positive outlook of this thread.. Its just like how me and my friends talk about it.
This got e so much more excited about brawl.
Now I can sleep happy.. Thanks a lot!
SynikaL
Smash Lord
Yes, I am being very skeptical -- but I'm not being skeptical just for the sake of it. I'm simply abiding by the impressions of these two individuals, who have detailed the type of direction they feel the game is taking. Not only did I explain quite vividly why a strong universal SS needs to exist in a fighting game, I cited examples of games that proved an attempt at balancing variety does not work -- conversely, I cited three examples of games that show how a solid USS keeps the game sturdy under competitive scrutiny and evolution. Precedence is my pillar here.
"Like I said, Brawl's battle system is universal and balanced enough so far."
"So far" are the key words here and a phrase I abide by, regardless of which direction the uncertainty decides place its bets.
Mull over the concept of attempting to tweak variables without a universal rule set yourself: Trying to simplify rational numbers (many variables) would be a mess opposed to an attempt at a simple equation like 2 + 2 = 4 without these rules to guide you and reign in the human mind's undeniable proclivity to wander astray without them.
-SynikaL
aruby14
Smash Apprentice
This is like a joke thread right? Proof that Brawl will be good? THIS WHOLE **** SITE IS PROOF BRAWL WILL BE GOOD!!!!
Phyvo
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jul 17, 2007
- Messages
- 289
Except, again, even we accept your reasonable argument we can't be sure that Brawl has "insufficient" USS. Heck, Melee had all that USS... and was it balanced? No. Even though Bowser was *better* with l-canceling, it didn't counter the fact that he was still much worse. But, even with these GREAT imbalances between characters, was the game deep? Yes.
So what does this tell me? You only need about 8 balanced characters to actually make a deep game that people like, and if the others are worse that doesn't stop you from playing it. It's not like you're FORCED to play with the character who is hated on by the system like you're FORCED to spawn with crappy weapons in Halo 2 compared to Halo 1. And we have 35 characters limited to the system which makes Smash Smash, so even though they may be different, the difference could easily be not so overwhelming that we're left with a single, completely overpowered character.
There is reason to believe the characters won't go so out of whack that the game's competitiveness will collapse. Heck, even Street Fight III is home to that famous parrying video, and where was that filmed? At a tournament, of course!
Basically, I'm skeptical of your skepticism. I think the most reasonably pessimistic attitude you can hold at this point is "Wait a few months and see", not "Brawl is going to be worse than Melee".
I'm skeptical everyones wasting their time trying to judge a game before they've even played it. Look at how much effort everyones putting into this. It's like someone trying to figure out somebodies personality through how they dress, without ever actually talking to them. It's going to take a lot more effort, and energy, to figure something out based on a few peoples' views of it. How about we all just decide if we like it or not AFTER we do the dissection early march eh? Super smash brothers brawl is not melee 2.0. Smash bros 64 had Z cancel. It takes time for discoveries to be made, and BRAWL ISNT EVEN OUT YET!
kai123
Smash Cadet
You do realize that some people have the game dont you?
Block of text.
Mama
Smash Ace
Spectacular. I read it all because I'm not ******** and internet forums are all about reading lol. That answered a lot of things a wanted to know and assured what I hoped most : Unique characters.
Sounds like the depth of each character already set this game in another league apart from Melee. And that its the players that give the game true depth. Not the techniques. And when the game is out I guarantee you that most of these doubters and pessimists will shed their fears and enjoy a great game.
I really love the idea of having to know every single characters play style. That just means that when you practice with your crew/friends everyone should try to experiment with every character. One great thing about that is you may wind up finding the character meant for you, or a new character to play with. It'll also encourage more people to hit up tournaments to experience new things.
I'm really psyched now. Aerial fighting seems to be exactly like I hoped. Chase a payer down to the depths for a kill and make it back to the stage. Over the waiting period I've already shed my Melee mentality where I judged every aspect of Brawl from a Melee plateau. As was said in the first post, what did those who played Smash 64 think when they first played Melee. Totally different yet look how Melee turned out. (I was still a scrub when I started playing Smash 64 and first started at Melee lol).
If you can keep updating the thread and maybe include what the update is about in an edited thread title or at least a date.
Sounds like the depth of each character already set this game in another league apart from Melee. And that its the players that give the game true depth. Not the techniques. And when the game is out I guarantee you that most of these doubters and pessimists will shed their fears and enjoy a great game.
I really love the idea of having to know every single characters play style. That just means that when you practice with your crew/friends everyone should try to experiment with every character. One great thing about that is you may wind up finding the character meant for you, or a new character to play with. It'll also encourage more people to hit up tournaments to experience new things.
I'm really psyched now. Aerial fighting seems to be exactly like I hoped. Chase a payer down to the depths for a kill and make it back to the stage. Over the waiting period I've already shed my Melee mentality where I judged every aspect of Brawl from a Melee plateau. As was said in the first post, what did those who played Smash 64 think when they first played Melee. Totally different yet look how Melee turned out. (I was still a scrub when I started playing Smash 64 and first started at Melee lol).
If you can keep updating the thread and maybe include what the update is about in an edited thread title or at least a date.
What I felt when I played Melee?
I thought it was HORRIBLE....at first..
Everything felt....off...
Just, I couldnt explain it....it was wierd, especially since in 64 I mained Fox, and then I picked Fox as my first char to play with in Melee and I was like: WTF???
What happened to Fox? his lazers suck!.....His running attack SUCKS!!!....NOOOO
But over time I grew to love Melee, and Falco, since he felt more like n64 Fox then anyone else.
I thought it was HORRIBLE....at first..
Everything felt....off...
Just, I couldnt explain it....it was wierd, especially since in 64 I mained Fox, and then I picked Fox as my first char to play with in Melee and I was like: WTF???
What happened to Fox? his lazers suck!.....His running attack SUCKS!!!....NOOOO
But over time I grew to love Melee, and Falco, since he felt more like n64 Fox then anyone else.
Kone
Smash Master
Been playing brawl with wes. To anyone that thinks it wont be competitive they can eat my ****. Expect lucas v luigi vids 2moro.
ed
ed
Mama
Smash Ace
lol nice. Interested to see that Luigi combo vid too. I never doubted Brawl's competitive scene. I'm glad we finally have something to shut up those **** whiners
quoted for the mother****ing truth.
Mama
Smash Ace
This thread deserves a bump today. Too many disheartened folk running about.
I read it all
Very awesome, I want this game even more now ><
Very awesome, I want this game even more now ><
tennisthehilife
Smash Lord
Great thread but summary/shorten version might need small revisions here and there, I guess make everything easier to see? Just my suggestion. I liked the original w/ only the aim conversation though. Awesome thread.
GAwes
Hidden Boss
Hey guys, im going to post another thread so that i can keep up with the updates myself and post new videos in that thread as well, please refer all discussion to said thread
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=3882552#post3882552
I will be requesting that this thread be closed shortly, VIDS ARE UP NOW, MORE TO COME!!!!!!!!!!
GAwes
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=3882552#post3882552
I will be requesting that this thread be closed shortly, VIDS ARE UP NOW, MORE TO COME!!!!!!!!!!
GAwes