Brawl plus - Dedication to a new start and a chatroom discussion should be plan.

[BUM163]

This is a thread in regards to starting a whole new version to brawl which needs alot of fixing and to make it on the competitve side for true hardcore players. The problem is that there is alot of players giving their input.... yet they are probably the ones that won't ever join tournaments or honestly.... not even good. I don't mind wolf having falco down b property from melee, but i think the main focus should be the balancing of characters.


The fact that an even field of characters is hardly ever possible..... we can at least make it that the worst character can be the best with the right person controlling the character. Me and Silven had a talk about how like lucario can attack after his up b.... but why? He was already a good character that made sense sort of. He had a some what bad recovery just cause he can from a distance and fight up close good. A character like squirtle being able to combo alot is fine..... but when he does 10/11 damage per hit and can kill at 130, thats a problem.


Next thing that should happen is pro players like me, ninjalink and others who would take this game serious try to find out kinks and see if any extreme cheap stuff exist within the version that was handed out.... but having a new version out everyday is hard to keep up and not allowing us to fully figure out what works and what doesn't.


Now i also think old/new techiques should be added to spice this game up. Remember this is for the hardcore and i know i won't be the only that would want this game to blow up. I think adding old/new techs would make people look at this game and be like wow, this looks interesting. Watching players come up with new defensive tactics and new combos/techs would be eye candy and alot more host/stores would probably want to pick it up just cause it is attracting players/customers. We have to remember that this game has to great in order for it to consider [SERIOUS] and i say this cause it's troublesome just cause you have to hack your wii and do extra activities just to obtain this game.


People who are serious about this game and want it to go somewhere... PLEASE IM ME WHENEVER YOU READ THIS. I'm already trying to host this game in nyc, but i need DEDICATED PEOPLE WHO WOULD TRAIN/TEST THIS GAME OUT WITH ME. My aol name is oni163 and i want to set up a day to have the developers and players to be in a chatroom and discuss what is needed to improve and finalize this game.

 

[ANTi_]

Hmm i'd train with you depending on how good wolf is in this game lol.

btw : once this game finalizes ill get into it and take it seriously

 

[Revven]

Nevermind. You should have posted this in the Smash Workshop, Bum. JCaeser I believe is going to talk to you on AIM, try to get on there, it's important.

 

[shanus]

Bum, I've already told you this, and I already spoke with people like Silven and our ideas are fairly aligned aside from like a shine change and Lucario upB. I feel like people are overreacting to this stuff (esp. a few select players from NYC)

Here is a copy of a PM i sent to Silven:

The falco shine change I'm pretty undecided on, so I'm not going to touch on that one as I also lack the expertise in this area. Regarding Lucario though, I think the change in its current state was too good. However, I don't think that the change was unwarranted and I don't feel it should be removed.

To give a little background, here was the logic behind the change: Lucario (based on match-ups) can have a fairly linear approach game which can easily focus on heavy camping as a tool to win. Additionally, a main point of dissatisfaction for lucario players was the lack of versatility of a move with no knockback properties making it substantially easier to gimp in this enhanced combo game. To try and stimulate some aggression and add more versatility to his upB, we implemented this change in probably a bit too buffed of a state.

Lucario was a pretty good character. He wasn't a fox or squirtle though. Why settle for pretty good when we can implement a change which deepens his gameplay and achieve excellence? Not to mention, its probably one of the most satisfying and well-liked changes we have instituted in our sets.

In the next nightly, we are removing the upB travel speed-up which should hopefully tone it down a bit.

Case and point, Brawl+ is a work in progress, and different camps want different things for the game. Balancing takes time, and I fail to see why the NYC community is so up in arms over 2-3 changes given how we are fairly vocal about our willingness to change. Furthermore, we learned a ton through BtL and confirmed a lot of our suspicions and are acting on it. I know a lot of you guys are new to the Brawl+ community, but this is how its always been. Making this game takes time, and its pretty ****ing awesome as it is now. Remember, its a mix of theorycrafting and guess and check and it takes time and a lot of hard work.

Also, its easy to throw out ideas for techs, etc. I've told you numerous times about how we have extremely limited access to coders now, so we must make due with the current tools at our disposal.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Hmm i'd train with you depending on how good wolf is in this game lol.

btw : once this game finalizes ill get into it and take it seriously

The thing I hate about Wolf in Brawl+ is that I can no longer recover with his UpB from creative angles or positions due to the lack of auto-snap ledges.

There's very few other things I would like to see changed about Wolf, but that's a different story for a different project.

 

[fkacyan]

Heh, theorycrafting.

<3 WoW

The thing I hate about Wolf in Brawl+ is that I can no longer recover with his UpB from creative angles or positions due to the lack of auto-snap ledges.

Diddy has similar issues with his recovery, as I recall.

 

[cman]

Now i also think old/new techiques should be added to spice this game up. Remember this is for the hardcore and i know i won't be the only that would want this game to blow up. I think adding old/new techs would make people look at this game and be like wow, this looks interesting. Watching players come up with new defensive tactics and new combos/techs would be eye candy and alot more host/stores would probably want to pick it up just cause it is attracting players/customers.

I got the impression that you guys were against changes that didn't have a distinct and necessary balance related purpose. Wasn't that what Silven's whole thread was about?

This seems to suggest the exact opposite.

 

[Eggm]

This is a thread in regards to starting a whole new version to brawl which needs alot of fixing and to make it on the competitve side for true hardcore players. The problem is that there is alot of players giving their input.... yet they are probably the ones that won't ever join tournaments or honestly.... not even good. I don't mind wolf having falco down b property from melee, but i think the main focus should be the balancing of characters.


The fact that an even field of characters is hardly ever possible..... we can at least make it that the worst character can be the best with the right person controlling the character. Me and Silven had a talk about how like lucario can attack after his up b.... but why? He was already a good character that made sense sort of. He had a some what bad recovery just cause he can from a distance and fight up close good. A character like squirtle being able to combo alot is fine..... but when he does 10/11 damage per hit and can kill at 130, thats a problem.


Next thing that should happen is pro players like me, ninjalink and others who would take this game serious try to find out kinks and see if any extreme cheap stuff exist within the version that was handed out.... but having a new version out everyday is hard to keep up and not allowing us to fully figure out what works and what doesn't.


Now i also think old/new techiques should be added to spice this game up. Remember this is for the hardcore and i know i won't be the only that would want this game to blow up. I think adding old/new techs would make people look at this game and be like wow, this looks interesting. Watching players come up with new defensive tactics and new combos/techs would be eye candy and alot more host/stores would probably want to pick it up just cause it is attracting players/customers. We have to remember that this game has to great in order for it to consider [SERIOUS] and i say this cause it's troublesome just cause you have to hack your wii and do extra activities just to obtain this game.


People who are serious about this game and want it to go somewhere... PLEASE IM ME WHENEVER YOU READ THIS. I'm already trying to host this game in nyc, but i need DEDICATED PEOPLE WHO WOULD TRAIN/TEST THIS GAME OUT WITH ME. My aol name is oni163 and i want to set up a day to have the developers and players to be in a chatroom and discuss what is needed to improve and finalize this game.

Melee is already finalized and can do the bold part i bolded in your post. This is just a waste of time. Sorry. =\ Yah it will have more characters, but its still always no matter what going to be brawl.

 

[otg]

Melee is already finalized and can do the bold part i bolded in your post. This is just a waste of time. Sorry. =\ Yah it will have more characters, but its still always no matter what going to be brawl.

QFT, I'm sorry, but no matter what you guys do, there will still be top tiers and bottom tiers. There is no such things as perfect balance, it can't be achieved. While I respect you guys for trying to make brawl more tolerable, the fact of the matter is if you want good gameplay, go to Melee.

 

[Revven]

QFT, I'm sorry, but no matter what you guys do, there will still be top tiers and bottom tiers. There is no such things as perfect balance, it can't be achieved.

We're not aiming for perfect balance.

 

[GuruKid]

I agree with most (if not all) of what you posted, Bum. Granted, Plus still has a loooong way before it's viable to the point where game stores and competitive companies even consider picking it up.

Like I've said before, I'm always down with training and testing the game with other players; more get-togethers are definitely needed, where we can sit down and actively discuss the current B+ and the overall direction the game should take.

I actually suggested a Roundtable Discussion (so as to discuss said issues) amongst players to Chibo for Beyond the Limit, but for whatever reason, the idea fell through...

It's up to us, the community, to hold these kinds of gatherings.

Bum, I've already told you this, and I already spoke with people like Silven and our ideas are fairly aligned aside from like a shine change and Lucario upB. I feel like people are overreacting to this stuff (esp. a few select players from NYC)

Case and point, Brawl+ is a work in progress, and different camps want different things for the game. Balancing takes time, and I fail to see why the NYC community is so up in arms over 2-3 changes given how we are fairly vocal about our willingness to change.

We only nag and express our ideas forcefully so much because we really care about the direction this game takes.

I've told you numerous times about how we have extremely limited access to coders now, so we must make due with the current tools at our disposal.

Alas, a huge obstacle to the plus cause...

 

[XSilvenX]

Bum, I've already told you this, and I already spoke with people like Silven and our ideas are fairly aligned aside from like a shine change and Lucario upB. I feel like people are overreacting to this stuff (esp. a few select players from NYC)

Here is a copy of a PM i sent to Silven:




Case and point, Brawl+ is a work in progress, and different camps want different things for the game. Balancing takes time, and I fail to see why the NYC community is so up in arms over 2-3 changes given how we are fairly vocal about our willingness to change. Furthermore, we learned a ton through BtL and confirmed a lot of our suspicions and are acting on it. I know a lot of you guys are new to the Brawl+ community, but this is how its always been. Making this game takes time, and its pretty ****ing awesome as it is now. Remember, its a mix of theorycrafting and guess and check and it takes time and a lot of hard work.

Also, its easy to throw out ideas for techs, etc. I've told you numerous times about how we have extremely limited access to coders now, so we must make due with the current tools at our disposal.

Well the whole deal for me personally is giving characters with flaws the luxury of having those flaws removed "for the hell of it"(or in Ivysaur's case because he's such a bad character...). The Falco shine may not effect his tiers so much so I honestly don't even care anymore but I still think it's stupid. I honestly don't know why Falco mains would even want a Shine that pulls them in when most good players will DI in such a fashion that will make the move completely useless. My thing is, why not just "fix" the shine if it sucked so bad and people could punish it.Nope, let's make a whole new shine because it's cool. *_*

Second issue, once again with Lucario's upb. I was told by Leafgreen that it wasn't really for fixing Lucario's recovery issues but it's so that he can be a more versatile and aggressive character. For example upb over someone's head and dair... *_* Oh really..? I don't think you realize how much more crazy Lucario will be in Brawl+ with this. If the people advocating the no freefall upb have problems being aggressive then that's THEIR problem. It's not in the character to camp even because the truth is, Lucario CAN be aggressive. I've seen it...a lot thanks to Ninjalink. His Lucario is murder. It's just the n00b mentality gets the best of people and it makes people think that any character with a projectile should camp. Now you guys wanna give him the ability to zip to you and aerial you or shoot a few balls and zip pass you and do all sorts of BS without punishment once again for the hell of it. It is not necessary at all....it's just too much. A character with a projectile does not even need a rush in move. Do you know why they give rush in moves to characters with no projectiles and not characters with projectiles? One word...Balance. Someone must have forgotten that word when they thought of the idea of Lucario rushing in with upb to coax more players to be aggressive. Do you see Ryu with a rush move? What about Ken? Nope lol. But you see Ike, Abel, Vega, etc with tools to do that. Projectile characters NEVER ever need an aggro move like that.

Furthermore, why not focus on blatant things that NEED work instead of useless stuff that I just mentioned?

Once again I must commend you guys for paying attention to:

Link - Nair, upb, fsmash
Samus - Chargeshot, nair, fsmash

Those buffs, unlike the ones I "whine" about are agreed upon by the majority of players. Things like Lucario no freefall upb and Falco's pull-in shine are way too subjective and cater towards a very specific group. Mainly the Falco and Lucario mains. For you to keep it in just because they demand it is pretty funny because the bias is really obvious.

I main Ike and I played the sh*t out of Ness but never once did you see me suggest any buffs to either of them and we all know they're sh*t characters. Too many buffs will just ruin the game, focus on nerfing broken things and buffing REALLY bad and I mean BLATANTLY bad things, instead of tinkering with mediocre subtleties like the type of Shine Falco has... or the Lucario thing that I don't even wanna mention again.


To bum: I honestly don't think going off and creating your own version of Brawl+ is a good idea. This splits the community even more and confuses the hell out of people who don't know what Brawl+ is. Imagine more people caught onto this idea and there were hundreds if not thousands of different Brawl+ versions out there being used in tournaments and households. You go to someone's house and you have to ask what version of Brawl+ it is...*_*. That's just not acceptable because we are all part of the same community. There has to be a standard and I have to admit I'd prefer what we already have over the Smash you're theorizing. From what we spoke about you seem pretty serious and dedicated but they're already months ahead of you. So as much as I hate to say this, I'd actually rather stick to this Brawl+ even though the changes are exponentially growing in a bad way each update... not to mention the crazy amount of close minded character bias in the backroom *cough Ivy buffs*

 

[shanus]

Just so you know, Ivy's razor leaf is being toned down and being buffed in another department. She can't upB multiple times anymore, either. The razor leaf made her too focused on that while her on stage game was easily DIable and lacking in versatility/power akin to olimars monstrous on stage game. Also, she just isn't that good, Cape showed Gonzo and I how to beat Ivy and we quickly found how much of a 1 trick pony she really was.

We are thinking of buffing the damage output of a few moves and a few other speedups for her, but nothing over the top so that she can have a bit more variety in her gameplay and focus on that "strong on stage / ****ty off stage" mentality.

Lucario I'll comment on another time.


Our current BR set is addressing a lot of the issues we found / heard at BtL towards balancing the blatant high tiers.
-Squirtle damage output / self-comboable utilts
-fox's damage output
-lucario upB speedup (he gets no more of that crazy momentum at the end which makes it a lot less broken)
-marth damage tweaks
and more....

 

[XSilvenX]

Just so you know, Ivy's razor leaf is being toned down and being buffed in another department. She can't upB multiple times anymore, either. The razor leaf made her too focused on that while her on stage game was easily DIable and lacking in versatility/power akin to olimars monstrous on stage game. Also, she just isn't that good, Cape showed Gonzo and I how to beat Ivy and we quickly found how much of a 1 trick pony she really was.

We are thinking of buffing the damage output of a few moves and a few other speedups for her, but nothing over the top so that she can have a bit more variety in her gameplay and focus on that "strong on stage / ****ty off stage" mentality.

Lucario I'll comment on another time.


Our current BR set is addressing a lot of the issues we found / heard at BtL towards balancing the blatant high tiers.
-Squirtle damage output / self-comboable utilts
-fox's damage output
-lucario upB speedup (he gets no more of that crazy momentum at the end which makes it a lot less broken)
-marth damage tweaks
and more....

Hmm sounds good actually... I'll still reserve my judgment for when it's actually available though since chances are there will be issues with this set too..

 

[JCaesar]

There will be issues with every set. No one is going to be happy with every single change.

Remember, these are nightly builds, not official releases. A lot of these changes are experimental and will not make it into the final release.

 

[Crizthakidd]

you guys should set a date for an official build. brawl + v2. next year v3, ect

and help get it known and stuff. prepare arguments to let people know it is better. remember to keep organized at all times.

 

[HOTBOX]

Marth Has A Pimp Costume Purple And Black Its Sexy. When It Comes Down 2 Over All Game Play Its Ok A Good Start.