Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[bajisci]

Yoshi's dair has alot of lag and near no hit stun resulting in it being very bad. if yoshi dairs a marth at any percent the marth can punish getting hit by yoshi's dair with dolphin slash because its so fast. yoshi CAN shield before he dolphin slashes, but i still think tahts kinda stupid. even not against marth he is generally at a huge disadvantage just using the dair. He already has 3 useless moves (b moves) i tink his dair should get knock back or have less lag. if its been brought up before and cant be fixed cause of various reasons. whatever

 

[Christopher Rodriguez]

How indepth does the hitbox modification code go? Can you literally change every aspect?

 

[goodoldganon]

How indepth does the hitbox modification code go? Can you literally change every aspect?

Size, speed (frame by frame), KB, angle, sound, and effect (fire, darkness, etc) are what we can all edit.

 

[Deleted member]

actually I'm also writing a code to edit the position (X and Y translartion) as well as hitlaga nd hitstun.

but the code isn't working how I want it right now

 

[GHNeko]

Size, speed (frame by frame), KB, angle, sound, and effect (fire, darkness, etc) are what we can all edit.

The size hitbox is always proportionate though. If we reduce one size, everything else scales.

 

[Deleted member]

nvm this post

 

[lonelytraveler8]

Thanks camelot, I'll give it a whirl

Others might disagree, but is this necessary for Ivysaur? The range on his tether when grabbing the edge is insanely long. I swear it stretches 2x it's normal length if it's aimed for the edge. The only way I could see it being necessary is if someone is edgehogging and you need the extra little jump to hit them off (it doesn't stretch if someone is on the edge already). But then that's just another thing helping the losing player.

Olimar, on the other hand, may be lacking Pikmin. Either some died, he threw one to knock someone off or, worse case scenario, they got scattered after being launched and not all returned upon calling them. So having a little hop on his Up-B actually makes a lot of sense.

Edit: Here are a couple of screenshots demonstrating Ivysaur's tether. Not to say some people don't know, but I figured it would be easier to provide visual representation than for everyone who doesn't know to go try for themselves. Am I allowed to change these links to thumbnails?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/lonelytraveler8/Ivysaru_tether01.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/lonelytraveler8/Ivysaur_tether02.jpg

 

[CloneHat]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Ivy have dair stall, razor leaf, and unlimited tethers? What's the point of this hop?

 

[shanus]

Others might disagree, but is this necessary for Ivysaur? The range on his tether when grabbing the edge is insanely long. I swear it stretches 2x it's normal length if it's aimed for the edge. The only way I could see it being necessary is if someone is edgehogging and you need the extra little jump to hit them off (it doesn't stretch if someone is on the edge already). But then that's just another thing helping the losing player.

Olimar, on the other hand, may be lacking Pikmin. Either some died, he threw one to knock someone off or, worse case scenario, they got scattered after being launched and not all returned upon calling them. So having a little hop on his Up-B actually makes a lot of sense.

Edit: Here are a couple of screenshots demonstrating Ivysaur's tether. Not to say some people don't know, but I figured it would be easier to provide visual representation than for everyone who doesn't know to go try for themselves. Am I allowed to change these links to thumbnails?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/lonelytraveler8/Ivysaru_tether01.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/lonelytraveler8/Ivysaur_tether02.jpg

We removed Ivy's unlimited tether and razor leaf has been slowed down a bit.

 

[SketchHurricane]

Umm... we fixed that Ike Side B **** awhile ago.

You guys have to keep up...

I don't have to do anything!

Looks like Kupo is down to speed up the sideB cooldown in his next update, too. Good stuff.

 

[GPDP]

I've been busy, so I haven't kept up with anything for the last week or so. As such, I'd be happy if someone would oblige with answering a few questions.

What is currently being discussed in terms of changes? Which changes in the current build will be removed? And has anything been discussed regarding character physics (some of which cannot be reasonably refined without Almas's upcoming code for altering the gravity of recoveries)?

Thanks!

 

[lonelytraveler8]

We removed Ivy's unlimited tether and razor leaf has been slowed down a bit.

Even so, unless Olimar has some other special enhancement, I still think it balances out. Ivysaur require less aim on his tether, longer and completely consistant reach (which potentially gives the chance to grab before someone can edge hog) and even with a slowed down razor leaf, it's still and option to knock the opponent off.

Also, someone pointed out a good point with the dair stall, however small it might be. These are all things Olimar does not get. Olimar can throw his Pikmin (only the purple one will knock the opponent off, though) and has a less reliable tether. It seems to make plenty of sense that Olimar was given a little hop when Ivysaur wasn't.

I didn't realize I was missing out on a newer build. I'm still using a version where Ivysaur has an infinite tether. Out of curiosity, how much slower is the razor leaf?

Edit: GPDP pointed out something that I'd like to expand on it a bit. Could the OP or one of the first posts be updated with issues that have been brought to light and are up for discussion? It's too hard to sift through all the posts that come in, especially if you've been away for a few days.

Edit 2: Hmm...I just redownloaded the .gct from the OP and there aren't any changes to Ivysaur.

 

[shanus]

Its not posted yet lonely, still ironing out some changes.


Don't forget prolimar uair, that is the key to removing a ledgehogger.

 

[lonelytraveler8]

Oh ok. Well, still...out of curiosity, how much slower is razor leaf? I realize it's too fast, but not terribly so. It's only slightly spammier than Falco's laser. Anyways, not a big deal.

Using Olimar's uair still requires safely getting in close. Ivysaur still has a better chance to knock them off when he's too far away. If you got that close with Ivysaur, his dair wouldn't only stall, it could lead to a kill. I'm not trying to be biased. I hated Ivysaur in vBrawl, but now he's my second favorite to play and probably my third best character. He's great in Brawl+ and his recovery is definitely not bad.

I know it's being taken out, but even with infinite tethers, there's a way to kill Ivysaur. If you edgehog just as his vine is trying to grab the ledge, he'll fail and will fall helpless. Completely removes his ability to tether again. It's something I found interesting.

 

[Roxas215]

Even so, unless Olimar has some other special enhancement, I still think it balances out. Ivysaur require less aim on his tether, longer and completely consistant reach (which potentially gives the chance to grab before someone can edge hog) and even with a slowed down razor leaf, it's still and option to knock the opponent off.

Also, someone pointed out a good point with the dair stall, however small it might be. These are all things Olimar does not get. Olimar can throw his Pikmin (only the purple one will knock the opponent off, though) and has a less reliable tether. It seems to make plenty of sense that Olimar was given a little hop when Ivysaur wasn't.

I didn't realize I was missing out on a newer build. I'm still using a version where Ivysaur has an infinite tether. Out of curiosity, how much slower is the razor leaf?

Edit: GPDP pointed out something that I'd like to expand on it a bit. Could the OP or one of the first posts be updated with issues that have been brought to light and are up for discussion? It's too hard to sift through all the posts that come in, especially if you've been away for a few days.

Edit 2: Hmm...I just redownloaded the .gct from the OP and there aren't any changes to Ivysaur.

The set with the ivy changes hasn't been released yet.

And while ivy may have a better recovery then olimar then doesn't mean they shouldn't do anything. When you only compare their recovery yes ivy is better but how about we compare the actual chars? Oli can land kills VERY EASILY ivy can't. Olimar should be easier to gimp then ivy because of what he can do onstage compare to what ivy can do.

Also about ivy's razors. I do agree it was a little too fast but it should still be quite faster then it was in vbrawl. Don't nerf it too much.

 

[lonelytraveler8]

I disagree a bit. Olimar is indeed incredible on the stage and has great air game, hence why he's rather easy to gimp.

But Ivysaur is still incredible. His bair is, in my opinion, arguably one of the best spacing attack in the entire game. Is dair has a huge hitbox. His fair kills easily. And his uair kills at early percentages and is extremely fast to boot.

His ground game isn't quite as good, but definitely not bad. His tilts are generally, except maybe his utilt, but I prefer neutral-B in cases where utilt can be used. His fsmash is fast, has great range and good knockback. His dsmash is a tad slow and not terribly strong, but still hits both sides at the same time with wonderful range. And finally, his usmash is one of (if not the) strongest in the game.

Anyways, didn't mean to completely critique and explain Ivysaur. I doubt you didn't already know most of that, but I already wrote so meh. The point is that Ivysaur his great on stage and he's already got a good recovery.

I think my main problem is that, ignoring the comparison to Olimar, I don't really see any particular need to give him an extra hop.

Edit: Maybe I'm missing something, but I decided to take another look at his tether and, it seems to me that Ivysaur DOES get an extra little hop upon using the tether. Am I arguing something completely irrelevant?

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

I was playinga against my friend online and she was ivysaur. When she died, on my screen ivysaur never popped back out, but on hers it did, and the match ended. Fix this bug please?

Nvm, she didn't have an updated version when i thought she did. Whoopsies.

 

[camelot]

Edit: Maybe I'm missing something, but I decided to take another look at his tether and, it seems to me that Ivysaur DOES get an extra little hop upon using the tether. Am I arguing something completely irrelevant?

He always got that hop, but couldn't move side-to-side at all during the animation, this speed-up code just speeds up the ending so that you can start moving at the peak of the hop.

 

[lonelytraveler8]

I completely misunderstood what we were arguing about. And the way people were counter-pointing, I felt I had the right idea of what I was talking about.

Oh well. In that case, I guess I'll comment on the change after I've seen it in action. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[Roxas215]

I disagree a bit. Olimar is indeed incredible on the stage and has great air game, hence why he's rather easy to gimp.

But Ivysaur is still incredible. His bair is, in my opinion, arguably one of the best spacing attack in the entire game. Is dair has a huge hitbox. His fair kills easily. And his uair kills at early percentages and is extremely fast to boot.

His ground game isn't quite as good, but definitely not bad. His tilts are generally, except maybe his utilt, but I prefer neutral-B in cases where utilt can be used. His fsmash is fast, has great range and good knockback. His dsmash is a tad slow and not terribly strong, but still hits both sides at the same time with wonderful range. And finally, his usmash is one of (if not the) strongest in the game.

Anyways, didn't mean to completely critique and explain Ivysaur. I doubt you didn't already know most of that, but I already wrote so meh. The point is that Ivysaur his great on stage and he's already got a good recovery.

I think my main problem is that, ignoring the comparison to Olimar, I don't really see any particular need to give him an extra hop.

Edit: Maybe I'm missing something, but I decided to take another look at his tether and, it seems to me that Ivysaur DOES get an extra little hop upon using the tether. Am I arguing something completely irrelevant?

Im not denying the fact that ivy has great kill OPTIONS. But contrary to belief it's rather hard landing the ko with ivy. People nee to realize that dthrow to uair is not a legit combo and can be di'ed out of. I normally rely on sh razorleaf to fair and even that is situational and now that they are slowing down razor leaf(note im not complaining about this) It's going to be even harder to land. And anyone that actually gets hit by ivy's upsmash did something wrong on their part.

I think it's obvious that ivy is SO MUCH BETTER in doubles then singles. This is probably due to the close nature of doubles. Ivy can tech chase fairly easy in doubles and like you said bair is a great spacing tool. Just watch my bair **** both people. 1:23 to 1:31
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgMIs0GJb5s

 

[lonelytraveler8]

I actually make use of his bair to setup a kill. His dash attack, fair, and uair all kill somewhat early. At the percentages that the previously mentioned attacks kill, it can also set up an attack.

A short hopped dair is also good at close range for setting up edge guarding. Like I said, the hitbox is huge, even horizontally, and it's pretty fast. I haven't had the chance to play doubles much with Brawl. I only have a couple friends who are up to par and a fourth who's trying, but we rarely all have the time to play at once. And when we do, we play Melee most of the time anyway

...Just watched the video. That looks like a lot of fun. Awesome Ivy. And also...I did not know his Up+B had that much power.

 

[JCaesar]

Ivy has better recovery than Oli, but Oli is a much more solid character on stage. Ivy just doesn't have the same EZ combos and damage racing ability that Oli has, and even though they both have great KO power, Oli's KO moves are easier to land and don't always need to be comboed into (usmash and bthrow). Even with one of the worst recoveries in the game, Oli is a better character overall imo.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is ... Ivy deserves the Oli hop with her up-B. Oli doesn't deserve any buff to his recovery though.

 

[Melomaniacal]

Anyone else getting problems with the game freezing?

 

[Christopher Rodriguez]

Make sure your using the newest plussery, and not using the double gct method.

Also don't press any buttons during loading and after a match ends and loads a victory screen. That might cause the game to freeze I think

 

[XSilvenX]

Best suggestion ever?

MAILING LIST so that people know when new versions are out. I've spoken to like 10 different people who play Brawl+ and they mention stuff that isn't even in the version I'm using because they're all playing different versions. They say it's hard to keep track so a mailing list would be nice.

 

[Christopher Rodriguez]

That would be really cool. Emails or SWF mass pms would be awesome. Good idea

 

[Thunderhorse+]

+1 for Silven's idea

10mailinglists

 

[GHNeko]

Easier said than done. LOL.

 

[cubaisdeath]

a mailing list? why doesn't everyone just subscribe to this thread or the official b+ thread to get updates? thats what I've been doing lol

 

[GHNeko]

People arent that knowledgable LOL.

 

[cubaisdeath]

clearly they aren't lol

 

[jalued]

with the appparent hitbox mod now available, anything going to be done to MK, or u guys feel he is ok now? just curious

 

[cookieM0Nster]

Speaking of the hitbox code, what is it and how do you use it? It should go in the Code Agenda thread.

 

[Deleted member]

MK's fine, learn to adapt.

 

[the_judge]

with the appparent hitbox mod now available, anything going to be done to MK, or u guys feel he is ok now? just curious

Please, no more MK nerfs. He is already nerfed to the point that either he doesn't hold top tier with an iron sword, or that he possibly might not be top at all.
Not saying i love vbrawl mk's brokenness, but I feel you shouldn't purposely knock a really good character down so many levels that they lose that title.

Just my .02 cents

 

[Tec0+9]

I'm not angry, I'm just tired of all the whining especially about things that are just untrue.

Ivysaur isn't broken! You can DI ALL of his combos and easily get inside him and combo him to absurd percents. You need to learn the match-up before crying wolf, if you think he's broken, you just suck and don't know the match-up at all. Ivy's combos are practically nonexistant and the Razor Leaves can be gotten around SO EASILY that it's like, why should we tone down the speed? Just because someone can't handle the pressure? Every character has a way around it, it's not like you're stuck to the stage and can't jump or SHAD them.

It's disgusting to see the amount of whining there has been in the last few days about Ivysaur all because of one match where, Basic Sausage, failed to realize he can get around the leaves and didn't have to plank on the edge. Because he didn't know the match-up! He didn't know DDD could SHAD, could jab the leaves, could DAIR the leaves, could do anything to them to get through. It's not even that match that makes slipsy to believe Ivy is broken, it's because of his apparent combos he has when you don't properly DI the moves.

I will say it again, Dthrow > Uair is not a legit combo, all Ivy has are some leaves that lead into the grabs if you don't do anything about it and Nair pressure. Learn the match-up and quit being babies.

Ask Cape about it, he taught Gonzo the match-up and Gonzo kicked Cape's *** afterwards. Ivy is not, in any way, broken even with the overbuffed leaves.

I'm not angry, at all. I just emphasize my words and get irritated by the amount of whining there is in this thread. It'd be nice if people actually bothered to test stuff and evaluate to make sure they are right. Half of it is baseless, the other half is actually people trying to test things and letting us know how they work out. Ivy being broken is that first half, it's baseless and people just don't know the match-up at all.

The constant amount of people who can't handle Ivysaur on these boards annoys me to no end. It's why we have the character boards for, to learn match-ups...! >_<

Were you not paying attention to what was going on? He was planking on purpose because as you can see he almost got a gimp off ivysaur. If he would have gotten that gimp off he would of won, but sadly failed

 

[Mattnumbers]

Please, no more MK nerfs. He is already nerfed to the point that either he doesn't hold top tier with an iron sword, or that he possibly might not be top at all.
Not saying i love vbrawl mk's brokenness, but I feel you shouldn't purposely knock a really good character down so many levels that they lose that title.

Just my .02 cents

Wait so your saying that just because he was top teir in Vbrawl means he should be top tier in Brawl+? That doesn't make any sense, he should be nerfed to be just as good as everyone else, maybe even closer to average than others since most people are tired of him from vbrawl.

 

[cookieM0Nster]

Please, no more MK nerfs. He is already nerfed to the point that either he doesn't hold top tier with an iron sword, or that he possibly might not be top at all.
Not saying i love vbrawl mk's brokenness, but I feel you shouldn't purposely knock a really good character down so many levels that they lose that title.

Just my .02 cents

*cough*captainfalcon*cough*same_thing*cough

REVENGE for the Captain Falcon users!!! MWAHAHAHAHA!!!

MK should be nerfed so that other people can catch up to his brokenness. Seriously. OK, not brokenness anymore, but "epic"ness. He is still really good.

 

[cubaisdeath]

Please, no more MK nerfs. He is already nerfed to the point that either he doesn't hold top tier with an iron sword, or that he possibly might not be top at all.
Not saying i love vbrawl mk's brokenness, but I feel you shouldn't purposely knock a really good character down so many levels that they lose that title.

Just my .02 cents

he's still amazing, in fact I believe he is among the best still. just learn how to play him. I play MK in vbrawl and brawl+. they do play completely different, but trust me, MK is still hella ****ing good.


best edgeguards in the game anyone?

 

[metaXzero]

Wait so your saying that just because he was top teir in Vbrawl means he should be top tier in Brawl+? That doesn't make any sense, he should be nerfed to be just as good as everyone else, maybe even closer to average than others since most people are tired of him from vbrawl.

Think he means just nerf the God tier out of him (which is done). We shouldn't try to nerf him to make him worse then another character. We nerf him to be less broken (while him being worse then someone else is a side-effect).