Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[Mattnumbers]

Vietgeek, does that mean that once we can edit props we can give Lucas's zair a hitbox?

Also I would like to see something done with the magnet change I suggested a while back.

 

[JCaesar]

Falco? Platforms and just crouching beg to differ in regards to Falco spam. I'll give you Pit and Olimar though. Pit might have more he can do against Snake in B+ than vBrawl, and Olimar is definitely a Snake counter (considering he is the only matchup I've seen Snake mains in vBrawl give a 40:60 against him, and PrOlimar still ***** in B+)

I thought silenced lasers could hit a crawling Snake. I could be wrong though, I don't play Falco or Snake.

It was a minor point anyway. The point was that ROB is not Snake's only bad matchup. He ain't broke by a long shot.

 

[PKNintendo]

No, I assure you, aggressive Snakes get ***** just as hard. If they're dumb enough to approach ROB standing by the edge, they get a bthrow + fair gimp. It's pretty easy.

Snake also gets outcamped by Falco, Olimar, and possibly Pit btw.

Also, Claus? He's alright, but top 5? o_O

Fixed for accuracy.

He isn't top five for sure, but he's pretty solid character in Brawl+.

 

[Mattnumbers]

My thoughts on Lucas are that at one point he could be considered upper middle but since everyone keeps getting better he has fallen behind the curve.

He is still easily viable, but then again you guys buffed Wolf again in that last nightly, and he was definitely already viable.

 

[JCaesar]

Everyone keeps getting better? MK, Squirtle, Marth, Fox, and Kirby (slightly) have all received more nerfs than buffs. Not to mention the other top tier vBrawl characters who got nerfed just because of physics changes (DDD, Snake).

And yes I agree with you that Wolf definitely doesn't need any more buffs -_- He's pretty **** good.

 

[Mattnumbers]

What I meant is that characters that were previously worse than him have become better than him, and therefore he has fallen below average.

 

[PKNintendo]

Are you serious Matt?

Lucas was pretty terrible in vBrawl. Barely ANYONE was worse than him. I disagree with your notion, in fact it's the reverse. Lucas has become better than those above him.

Seriously Lucas is severely underrated. Wolf's buffs?

 

[Mattnumbers]

Are you serious Matt?

Lucas was pretty terrible in vBrawl. Barely ANYONE was worse than him. I disagree with your notion, in fact it's the reverse. Lucas has become better than those above him.

Seriously Lucas is severely underrated. Wolf's buffs?

I'm not talking about vBrawl, I'm talking about earlier versions of Brawl+
Of course he is better than he was in vBrawl.

Really guys is what I said that hard to understand?

 

[leafgreen386]

What I meant is that characters that were previously worse than him have become better than him, and therefore he has fallen below average.

And this very statement is one of the reasons balancing a game with 40 characters is near impossible. There will always be an "average" character, and when there is an "average" character, that means there must also be "above average" and "below average" characters. And since people do prefer buffs rather than nerfs, if we're constantly buffing the chars that are "below average" all we end up doing is eventually creating a bunch of broken chars. Now, while balancing the game by making everyone broken is a valid theory for game balance, I don't think everyone wants a bunch of broken chars in brawl+. At a certain point, we're going to have to say that the cast feels fairly balanced, and start up the Release Candidate cycle, from which point we can start targeting specific matchups as they become more solidified. We still have more tweaking in mind for some chars before then, but we're not gonna get truly good balance until we get a good look at matchups.

PKNintendo: People usually talk about brawl+ from a perspective of within brawl+. People don't make comparisons to vbrawl that often >_>

 

[SymphonicSage12]

I think Lucas is really good in brawl+, like high middle tier. I mean come on, his fsmash and dsmash have ridiculous priority and knockback, nair is a combo machine, zap jump, tether recovery and regular recovery....etc.

He's not MK or Wario or Marth good, but he's not terrible either.

 

[Mattnumbers]

The thing about that leaf is that if you don't actually improve the best characters or make others better than them you will never end up with a character better than one of them, so unless you consider some of them to be broken improving all the other characters to around their level would only lessen the gap, which is what we want, right?

I personally think the best couple characters should get some nerfs, if not in actual moves you could even just give some of them more hitstun.

Nerf the top couple characters and then buff everyone to around the level of those characters and you will end up with a game with good balanced and characters that aren't ridiculously good.

 

[Sterowent]

Regarding snake, i'm all for the changing of his tilts. he's crippled by them. it's as simple as that. keeping them only makes his game that much simpler, since this option's so strong.

i mean, what snake wouldn't take advantage of such a speedy, ranged kill move? hell, it has uses at low percents as well! you'd be a fool to be a 'non-tilt' snake. it's like a falco that doesn't use bair.

i'd be glad to see this nerf because, through it, snake could be buffed elsewhere and gain options in other areas that don't severely limit his complexity.


by the way, viet's already added a hitbox (for fun, possibly) to lucas's zair. it looks like a good combo starter at lower percents, but a side-effect occurred that made it as long as link's when used as a tether. so, if you wanted to take it seriously, you'd need to find a way around that.


Edit: the best target for balancing towards seems like DK. he was great out of the box and has clear weaknesses, but his strengths are greater than them. perhaps a better comparison would be to today's ganon, though. he's got obvious weaknesses but is especially strong. both of them look to be in amazing shape but have obvious flaws that don't stop them from being viable. they're so...perfect.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Lucas's tether already went almost as far as links when used as a tether are you sure that that it actually got longer? The rope snake goes much farther than it looks like it should, it stretches a lot.

 

[PKNintendo]

Yeah. Viet also edited it.

I can't wait until it's added to the nightly .

 

[Plum]

The issue is that nobody in their right mind wants to see their character even be considered average.

It's natural that you want your main to be among the best. Almost every Smash player out there has some connection to their main. Yeah, there's those out there who take playing to win to the extremes and play a character only because they are the best, but its a safe bet assuming most play a character because they enjoy them and like the character itself. I would still be playing G&W and Wario even if they were some of the worst characters in the game (Melee G&W T_T) because they actually mean something to me as a Smash player. Why would anyone play Ganon, Falcon, Link, Jigglypuff and etc. in vBrawl outside of their love for the character?

Everyone out there needs to take a page from the B+ Link mains. Their character was horrible, he was given what he needs to be viable, and they shut up about Link because they understood what B+ was trying to do. Characters don't need to be great, just good enough that you can actually win with that character (and some matchup coverage unless you seriously want to go completely alone). Link can certainly be better, and given even more and be considered a "high tier" character, but he already has everything he needs to compete. You can replace plenty of characters with Link and understand that every character is viable (at least until tournament and matchup evidence proves wrong in the future). Some are going to have to be below average because that's how fighting games work.

On Snake:
How do Snake's tilts cripple him as a character? It's not like Snake has been filtered down into tilt spam, and they are only one part in the core of Snake's game. Snake is a deep, complex character and not just some mindless tilt happy character. His grenades (smart grenade use is scary to fight against), stage control (mortars, C4, mines), grab game (it's scary that Snake can combo out of grabs o_O), tech chasing (Dthrow is sooooo good), and mind **** (mind **** into Fsmash... :V ) all make up Snake. The tilts don't turn him into a simple to play character despite their risk/reward ratio. If you see a Snake just spamming tilts then he isn't going anywhere with Snake. They are good, but not some sort of all powerful tool people make them out to be. They are just one part of what makes Snake good, but he is certainly not good enough to warrant any sort of nerf.

 

[Sterowent]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRWTrljeyDw

he mentions the bug in the description but doesn't show it in the vid.


Edit: i do recognize all of those other facets of snake. i simply see those tilts as being a diversion from them. they're his single most straight forward moves and are more effective than most smash attacks. they, unlike the rest of him, are clear cut and don't add to his character at all, let alone what they take away from many other characters in approaching, which is already difficult enough on snake minus those tilts.


DoubleEdit: oh, nvm then. though he also mentioned the snake has a hitbox active the whole time it's out, rather than the initial poke. that seems a bit iffy. anyhow, it's pretty cool. hope to see it messed with some in the nightlies one day.

 

[Revven]

Lucas's tether already went almost as far as links when used as a tether are you sure that that it actually got longer? The rope snake goes much farther than it looks like it should, it stretches a lot.

Yeah. Viet also edited it.

I can't wait until it's added to the nightly .

Viet later realized that wasn't a bug and it was like that before so it's a perfectly good hitbox mod.

 

[Mattnumbers]

I understand that half of the cast IS going to be below average, but I still feel that the gap between average and best is big enough that the worse characters should be improved more.

Plus a lot of what I want to see for Lucas aren't actually just flat out buffs such as damage/kb increase. I'm looking for things that expand his metagame and give him even more interesting things to do. Him getting Buffed by them is just a side effect that I feel is justified by his current position.

 

[PKNintendo]

The issue is that nobody in their right mind wants to see their character even be considered average.

It's natural that you want your main to be among the best. Almost every Smash player out there has some connection to their main. Yeah, there's those out there who take playing to win to the extremes and play a character only because they are the best, but its a safe bet assuming most play a character because they enjoy them and like the character itself. I would still be playing G&W and Wario even if they were some of the worst characters in the game (Melee G&W T_T) because they actually mean something to me as a Smash player. Why would anyone play Ganon, Falcon, Link, Jigglypuff and etc. in vBrawl outside of their love for the character?

Everyone out there needs to take a page from the B+ Link mains. Their character was horrible, he was given what he needs to be viable, and they shut up about Link because they understood what B+ was trying to do. Characters don't need to be great, just good enough that you can actually win with that character (and some matchup coverage unless you seriously want to go completely alone). Link can certainly be better, and given even more and be considered a "high tier" character, but he already has everything he needs to compete. You can replace plenty of characters with Link and understand that every character is viable (at least until tournament and matchup evidence proves wrong in the future). Some are going to have to be below average because that's how fighting games work.

On Snake:
How do Snake's tilts cripple him as a character? It's not like Snake has been filtered down into tilt spam, and they are only one part in the core of Snake's game. Snake is a deep, complex character and not just some mindless tilt happy character. His grenades (smart grenade use is scary to fight against), stage control (mortars, C4, mines), grab game (it's scary that Snake can combo out of grabs o_O), tech chasing (Dthrow is sooooo good), and mind **** (mind **** into Fsmash... :V ) all make up Snake. The tilts don't turn him into a simple to play character despite their risk/reward ratio. If you see a Snake just spamming tilts then he isn't going anywhere with Snake. They are good, but not some sort of all powerful tool people make them out to be. They are just one part of what makes Snake good, but he is certainly not good enough to warrant any sort of nerf.

This man is a genius.
This NEEDS to be posted somewhere for everyone to see.

Edit: Lucas is FINE. I mean he's perfectly viable in B+. New physics+No stale moves+Higher shield stun=better for Lucas.

 

[Plum]

Edit: i do recognize all of those other facets of snake. i simply see those tilts as being a diversion from them. they're his single most straight forward moves and are more effective than most smash attacks. they, unlike the rest of him, are clear cut and don't add to his character at all, let alone what they take away from many other characters in approaching, which is already difficult enough on snake minus those tilts.

How? Each part of Snake has clear usage and clear defined situations in which they are used. It's not like Snake could be doing option 1 in a given situation but forgoes it because he can just use Ftilt. When I see smart Snake's play, they use a tilt because the situation specifically calls for it.

Is the opponent at mid range? Draw a grenade, and from there either cook it, drop it, toss it, etc. At mid range you aren't going to see Snake using a tilt because grenades are better suited for the position he is in. Shielded grenades also provide a more guaranteed defense and is extremely hard to punish for a vast majority of the cast.

Is the opponent far away? Draw on any grenade option, set up stage traps, mortar slide to the opponent etc.

Is the opponent in close range? Yes? Is the opponent on the offensive? That's when I see Snake players go for a Utilt. Lot of range and priority make for good defensive tools when he has no grenades. Even when Snake is on the offensive he isn't just going to be using his tilts at CQC. Yeah he has plenty of 1st hit Ftilt options, low% Utilt combos, but that's not all he has. Grab combos, and Dthrow mind **** can often prove to be more rewarding than if he just went for a tilt. I've had a Snake do like 50% from successful reads off on Dthrow; compare that to the damage output if he just went for a tilt.

Even in CQC where his tilts are useful they are not over polarizing options because I often see Snake players go for potentially more rewarding tactics. I just honestly see no problem with his tilts outside of their range, but Snake doesn't even warrant those kind of nerfs because there is no proof that he as a character is an overly dominant force.

 

[cAm8ooo]

I understand that half of the cast IS going to be below average, but I still feel that the gap between average and best is big enough that the worse characters should be improved more.

Plus a lot of what I want to see for Lucas aren't actually just flat out buffs such as damage/kb increase. I'm looking for things that expand his metagame and give him even more interesting things to do. Him getting Buffed by them is just a side effect that I feel is justified by his current position.

The gap is not that big. Many characters can hold their own against a lot of the cast. Take this set for example.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_zZ0LyN4jA

Lucas has plenty of what it takes to compete against high tier characters. He also doesn't need anything to expand his metagame. Lucas already has several quirks and cool things about him. More then what several characters have. We don't have to manufacture AT's to expand their metagame. In time that will grow on it's own.

A problem with buffing below average characters is that you cant really draw a clear cut line in the sand on what is average. When you get to a certain point, alot of characters are very debatable on who's better or who's worse. It's much easier to determine the handful of characters who we think are at the top, but it's much harder to point out an average character when the average is constantly changed.

 

[Mattnumbers]

If it was very debatable who was below or above average then that would be good, because it would be close enough for there to be a multitude of points on both sides.

And I know the gap is small, but I feel that it should be even smaller.

Really the only things I want done to Lucas are:

Zair hitbox
Magnet buff to make it an effective offensive tool
A useful PK Freeze


Really, I feel that with those easy buffs Lucas could be even better than he is now, but not actually be broken, or even put into the top 10.

 

[Sterowent]

will respond later. you've certainly got me there, plum. all i'm thinking about is how viable these tilt options are as the match goes on. at low percents, they're viable. at midpercents, still viable. at high percents, they're viable. only if your opponent has better range do you have to care so much about using most of those tactics. not only that, but they become quick paths to good dmg, which is why things like squirtle's vertical combos were nerfed (as well as to cut down on the overly useful options).

as well, while the game is best seen at highest lvl of play, what might've been learned from the MK ban thread is the power overly easy tactics have on mid and low level play.

but, i'll revise this later (and add it in a likely totally different conversation, but i hope it's not too far away). i'd at least like to see a revised snake in a nightly. changed tilts and moves buffed or added to to compensate. in a sense, i've always seen snake as a stronger, more combo-crushed Ike.

 

[timothyung]

all i'm thinking about is how viable these grenade options are as the match goes on. at low percents, they're viable. at midpercents, still viable. at high percents, they're viable.
So you nerf the nades?

And no Snake's play style is in no way similar to Ike's

Though, if you want Snake to be changed that much, go to the Snake thread. Post a changelist, if Snake mains are interested in it, find someone to make test builds for you, then test them. That's way better than putting it into a nightly to test the changes

 

[Mattnumbers]

I don't know, for me it seems like the nightlies aren't exerimental enough. As of now they are pretty much just more commonly released official builds. I don't think the WBR should be afraid to try out new ideas as long as it's just in a nightly build.

 

[matt4300]

I don't know, for me it seems like the nightlies aren't exerimental enough. As of now they are pretty much just more commonly released official builds. I don't think the WBR should be afraid to try out new ideas as long as it's just in a nightly build.

We had a "brawl+ teir list" thread a few days back that ended up turning into a debate about character balance. I don't remember if you were there or not... But, you really ought to read what was said.
The WBR isnet out to make this game super balanced.Contrary to what I and many others had thought. I used about the same words as you in this debate... Trust me your not gonna get anywhere. As I was told: if you want a balanced brawl+ learn how to code and do it yourself.
Now, I'm not being pesimistic just giveing you the facts.

lol I forgot it also turned into a lucas debate for some odd reason >_>'
Anyway, heres a steaming batch of truth.

Although SMK has mostly answered you, I feel I need to give my own explanation for this.

As you've mentioned, we currently have two primary groups of characters... those who are generally recognized as being in the upper half of the cast and those who are not. However, what makes these characters defined this way is only really based on a "feeling." Based on how easy they are to use for the general public, and how effective they are at higher levels, and just the general traits about the character that people recognize as being "good" or "bad." However, none of this takes into account specific matchups. While we may be able to say "this character is good because x, y, and z," we cannot say how much better they are than any other given character. This is the truly difficult part. Without extensive matchup data you can only do so much. You can only tweak a char until they "feel" right.

To an onlooker, it seems we have accepted two different standards of balance, one for "good" characters and one for "ok" characters. To a certain extent, this is true. We know what chars are good. We know what makes them good. But we don't know how good those attributes make them against random character #27. So what we're doing is trying to keep everyone "reasonably close" and buff chars to the point where they can be considered "viable," until we can obtain accurate data.

We certainly have the ability to nerf what makes a char "good." The problem is, in doing this, we could very easily end up making the char "bad" and thus in need of help. It's impossible to know exactly how much of an effect any given change will have on a char without extensive matchup data, and what is useful in what matchups, and how it is useful. It's very easy to give a random character that "feels" they are lacking a buff to one of their moves that gives them a new tool to compete with. However, what if this new tool does absolutely nothing to help the character in their problem matchups, and instead only shifts their advantageous matchups more in their favour? That isn't helping balance. It's hurting it. That's why we can't "just" nerf the good chars or "just" buff the weak chars. It's a lot more complicated than that.

Right now, the game "feels" relatively balanced. But that doesn't really mean anything. Everything we've been doing so far has been trying to get chars relatively close to each other in terms of power, and so far, it seems to be working. What makes it especially difficult is that people have different views of how certain chars should behave and how they should be buffed and/or nerfed. When it comes down to it, it's probably more accurate to say that the WBR is only currently trying to "streamline" characters right now, rather than "balance" them. Yeah, they all seem to play "well," but until we start having more tournaments with a consistent build and people get more matchup experience, we won't know how balanced the game really is.

I'm not sure what the other WBR members think about this, as we haven't discussed it in a while, but my idea for a release schedule of brawl+ goes something like this:
For the next couple months, the WBR will continue trying to "streamline" characters, until we feel we have an extremely solid cast worthy of a Release Candidate set. For the next 3+ months following, a number of very minimal changes will be made to this RC set each month, as specific balance issues get brought up. When these one month trial periods stop yielding new tweaks to be made, a Gold set will be released, which at first will probably be updated every three months or so, with updates gradually being made further and further apart to allow the metagame to stabilize and grow on its own, without constant changes. Eventually, small updates will be made no more often than once a year, if even. The balance tweaks made after Gold will be done to change the characters in as small of a way as possible, while specifically helping in matchups they need help in, and hurting in matchups they do too well in, without helping or hurting too much in places where they don't need to be helped or hurt in. In the event that something gamebreaking is found, depending on how extreme it is, an emergency patch may be released early to fix it, but don't count on "emergency" updates getting made just because a specific character is doing better than everyone else by a small margin. In cases like this, the metagame may just need more time to adapt to learning how to fight the character. Time is the only way you can truly find if something is balanced or not.


While the top will undoubtedly receive very small nerfs to alleviate problems in some specific matchups, it is much more likely that lower tier characters will end up receiving several small buffs that allow them to be viable. People are generally a lot more receptive to buffs than to nerfs, and if balance could be achieved solely through buffs, it's all we would do. However, some characters (MK is an excellent example here) are at a level so far above everyone else before nerfs that trying to buff everyone up to MK's standards would be ridiculous, and result in a game that while is not broken in the sense of matchups, is broken in the sense of every character being obscenely powerful. Granted, in general, more powerful characters are more fun to play, as they have more options and therefore more depth, but after a certain point, it crosses the line into "too powerful" and actually results in less depth. It's a fine line, and trying to find it is certainly not an easy task, but I'd like to think that the characters currently considered "good" in brawl+ have not yet crossed it.

God **** thats a long post leaf...

 

[PKNintendo]

If it was very debatable who was below or above average then that would be good, because it would be close enough for there to be a multitude of points on both sides.

And I know the gap is small, but I feel that it should be even smaller.

Really the only things I want done to Lucas are:

Zair hitbox
Magnet buff to make it an effective offensive tool
A useful PK Freeze


Really, I feel that with those easy buffs Lucas could be even better than he is now, but not actually be broken, or even put into the top 10.

Zair Hitbox will most likely make it in.
PK Freeze will never be useful. Buffing it is pointless, and it was never a part of his game.
Magnet (see above)

Those buffs won't place him in top ten.
Anywho, you underestimate Lucas. He's a solid character.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Zair Hitbox will most likely make it in.
PK Freeze will never be useful. Buffing it is pointless, and it was never a part of his game.
Magnet (see above)

Those buffs won't place him in top ten.
Anywho, you underestimate Lucas. He's a solid character.

I have already made codes that make magnet and PK Freeze useful.......

And I was saying that the buffs wouldn't put him in the top ten (If you thought I was saying the opposite)

Also, I think if we give him those buffs we should give PKT1 a slightly more forgiving angle, as it gives Lucas some pretty swayed matchups against certain characters

 

[PKNintendo]

I have already made codes that make magnet and PK Freeze useful.......

And I was saying that the buffs wouldn't put him in the top ten (If you thought I was saying the opposite)

...

Ohz...
can you be more specific on those buffs?
PK freeze is an already useless move. How did you change it?
Same for Psi magnet.

 

[Mattnumbers]

...

Ohz...
can you be more specific on those buffs?
PK freeze is an already useless move. How did you change it?
Same for Psi magnet.

I increased the size of the Psimagnet hitbox and was planning to make it release faster, but I was also planning on lowering the size of the heal area (if that's possible) to shift it from a healer to a damage dealer. Psimagnet has a naturally good angle, it sends them down.

PK Freeze I actually never finished tweaking but me and SHeLL have discussed ways you could make it useful. Basically it goes like this:

PK Freeze would be larger and maybe faster, It would be used to not straight out kill them but to make them lose altitude by making them fall while frozen. This would then set up for a Dsmash edgeguard or a PKT edgeguard or even an offstage edgeguard.

 

[matt4300]

I have already made codes that make magnet and PK Freeze useful.......

And I was saying that the buffs wouldn't put him in the top ten (If you thought I was saying the opposite)

Seriously man... Your not gonna get anywhere. Especially on lucas who is obviously a good char. Its not like giveing Link 16 damage on his spin attack akin to most moves like it in the game, or Faster arrows (the most usless weak projectiles in the game 4% <_<) were gonna make him top 10.. But, they were decided against (and not by link mains) the codes were even made and tested by me and 4 other link mains.

The point is ... If link can't even get buffs like these... You really think that lucas is going to be smiled upon? I mean they actually had to nerf link to give him what he has now.

Be happy with what lucas is now. He has no real detrimental problems.

 

[Mattnumbers]

I believe that the WBR is (mostly) full of intelligent people that will listen to good points and who are not overly conservative.

Plus I've seen many characters buffed that were considered good already.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Why are you all arguing so much? Can't you even fathom coming up with a compromise for your argument? You seriously sound like two old ladies brawling over who gets the last drop of tapioca pudding. >.>

 

[Mattnumbers]

Wait, what symphonic sage? I'm not sure what you mean, so far this has been a very civil argument Debate.

Debating on whether changes are good or bad is kinda the point of this thread.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Sorry, I kinda went overboard....

I'm just saying that you 2 are a little to ....erm, enthusiastic in your..


argument debate.

 

[matt4300]

I believe that the WBR is (mostly) full of intelligent people that will listen to good points and who are not overly conservative.

Plus I've seen many characters buffed that were considered good already.

Yeh.......... that I still don't get. (marth, falco, fox, Zss, Toon link ect) though there mains will defend to the death that these were "changes" to make the chars more fun...

 

[Mattnumbers]

Much to AEoJ's dismay (although he knows I'm right), I would like to bring up a problem.

I feel that Jigglypuff's Fthrow has too much base, it can kill at 80% if you are next to the ledge. Either make the move have no growth whatsoever or decrease the base please, and I'm sure other people agree with me.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

It's fine. I would just give it a much more upwards oriented angle, so it kills a lot later.



and MAAAAAAYBE lower a base a little.

 

[GameSystem]

I wouldn't mind it if jigg's grab range weren't so huge.

 

[Mattnumbers]

It's fine. I would just give it a much more upwards oriented angle, so it kills a lot later.



and MAAAAAAYBE lower a base a little.

That would work as well.

Except there's the problem with walkoff stages.