Brawl - More balanced than Melee? Lie or truth?

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Does Yoshi actually suck that much?

I haven't used C. Falcon much, but he seems fast and with fairly strong attacks. What's that makes him so weak?

We should look for good players with these characters and learn from them...

You've asked for my copypasta. Feel the wrath!.


CF is considered so horrible because he's a Melee character in Brawl Engine, was apparently is a HORRIBLE mix and has ruined what he was in Melee. His comboing potential was what made him in Melee, without that it really cripples his game. He has Atrocious Priority, since a great majority of his moves can be stopped by a simple jab. Average strength attack with either a lot of ending lag or Startup lag, that don't even do damage worth it. He cannot approach AT ALL, he's probably one of the easiest characters to camp once you get into high levels of play, easily telegraphed, has trouble racking up damage, nerfed Knee, the fact that so many others either are great newcomers, or Veterans that got buffed doesn't help him either. When you add to the fact he has likely the worst matchups in the game and Horrible Tourney outings so far, he definately at this point in time is a serious canadate for the worst character in Brawl. Things aren't looking so good for him at all.

 

[Amarkov]

Falcon is good only if you can consistently punch someone. Since even Ganondorf should be able to prevent you from doing this, you're left with a bunch of attacks that have no significant priority, speed, knockback, or damage.

 

[holysnap]

Lower and Bottom tiered characters should excel more in mindgames, instead of relying on technical skill. I went to a tournament a few days ago, and most of the characters that I had played before I did good against. Then I fought this good kirby, and I hardly ever fight them so I was unprepared for it, and he fared well against me.
The person that won first place was this MetaKnight that was amazing, it didn't even give me a chance to breath with my luigi, and it was basically dangerous wherever I was, whether I was the aggresor or the defender, didn't even have a chance.

Ok and another thing, I don't think you can really discuss the "balance" in brawl unless you include items/final smashes. When Sakurai made the game he intended for items to be on, and probably designed it like that (metaknight has a bad Final Smash).
Although I never use items, its not reasonable to criticize brawl based on the artificial rules that we have given it, if all items were always on I'm sure the tier list would be ALOT different.

 

[missingnomaster]

The problem with final smash balance is that there are characters like Falco who are great and have a great final smash. And Mario is not that great and his final smash is widely considered mediocre.

 

[DD151]

Lower and Bottom tiered characters should excel more in mindgames, instead of relying on technical skill.

top tier characters in brawl don't really have much tech skill to speak of either.

at the highest level of competition, factoring "mindgames" into character potential isn't necessary because it's already assumed that all players will be at the pinnacle of "mindgaming." low tiers focusing on "mindgames" will only be beat by higher tiers putting the same focus into "mindgames."

 

[Fletch]

The problem with final smash balance is that there are characters like Falco who are great and have a great final smash. And Mario is not that great and his final smash is widely considered mediocre.

Saying Mario's FS is mediocre is being quite generous.

 

[IrArby]

Everyone talking about Final Smashes is missing the point of the thread which is directed at Balance between Melee and Brawl in a competitive sense. Final Smashes, much like items, are turned off during competitive play. Its been discussed already and it exacerbates a lot of the already existing Imbalance in Brawl. If I lost becuase of a Final Smash or got KO'd going after a SmashBall I'd be really pissed and so all of you. Its random and doesn't add balance (in fact quite the contrary) so leave it alone.

Someone posed the question that if we theoritically got rid of Snake, MK, Falcon, and Yoshi would the game be relatively balanced. I say yes. You'd still have tiers since Marth, Falco, ROB, and a few others are still difficult to top but in comparisson to the existing cast, I believe it would be roughly as even as Melee.

Discuss or find something else relavent to discuss so I have legitimate reason to actually check this thread.

 

[Amarkov]

Lower and Bottom tiered characters should excel more in mindgames, instead of relying on technical skill. I went to a tournament a few days ago, and most of the characters that I had played before I did good against. Then I fought this good kirby, and I hardly ever fight them so I was unprepared for it, and he fared well against me.
The person that won first place was this MetaKnight that was amazing, it didn't even give me a chance to breath with my luigi, and it was basically dangerous wherever I was, whether I was the aggresor or the defender, didn't even have a chance.

If you rely on technical skill in Brawl, with any character, you will be owned so hard it's not even funny. It's nice that you can pull off that 18 damage combo flawlessly... too bad I got 50 damage on you while you tried to set it up.

Oh, and you do know that neither Kirby nor Meta Knight are lower tier?

Ok and another thing, I don't think you can really discuss the "balance" in brawl unless you include items/final smashes. When Sakurai made the game he intended for items to be on, and probably designed it like that (metaknight has a bad Final Smash).
Although I never use items, its not reasonable to criticize brawl based on the artificial rules that we have given it, if all items were always on I'm sure the tier list would be ALOT different.

You're right. With final smashes on, the tier list would be the following:

Falco
[3 blank spots]
Fox
Wolf
Sonic
Meta Knight (yes, his final smash isn't great, but good luck ever hitting the smash ball without being punished for it)
[200 blank spots]
most everyone else
[9,546,325 blank spots]
Mario
Donkey Kong

I don't think you could make Melee more unbalanced than smash balls with any ruleset.

 

[ADHD]

Chain grabs and infinites dominate, the end.

Brawl is too imbalanced from this.

 

[Amarkov]

Chain grabs and infinites dominate, the end.

Brawl is too imbalanced from this.

If infinites dominate, why is every tournament not won by an IC player infiniting everyone to death?

 

[Inui]

Please stop making horrible threads. If you've played the game extensively at all its obvious that the game is more balanced than melee in terms of top and bottom. I'm not going to elaborate because its that freaking obvious.

lol @ this post

It's old, but looking back at it is hilarious.

Low tiers could death combo the top tiers in Melee and actually gimp them. Sorry, but low tiers can't do that to the good characters in Brawl. The good characters are the only ones with "combos."

 

[JigglyZelda003]

You're right. With final smashes on, the tier list would be the following:

Falco
[3 blank spots]
Fox
Wolf
Sonic
Meta Knight (yes, his final smash isn't great, but good luck ever hitting the smash ball without being punished for it)
[200 blank spots]
most everyone else
[9,546,325 blank spots]
Mario
Donkey Kong

I don't think you could make Melee more unbalanced than smash balls with any ruleset.

lol now add all the items and any stage and what would the tier list look like then?

 

[RegalBuster]

Who gives a **** if it's balanced just play the ****ing game.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

i care about balance lol

 

[Fawriel]

Who gives a **** if it's balanced just play the ****ing game.

Okay, now this I don't get at all. How can you not care about balance at least to an extent?

 

[Corigames]

Who gives a **** if it's balanced just play the ****ing game.

That's the thing, it's terribly and horribly balanced and I'm NOT playing it.

 

[thumbswayup]

Who gives a **** if it's balanced just play the ****ing game.

When you lose every tournament you enter to Metaknights, I have a feeling your misguided view will alter drastically.

 

[Tee ay eye]

When you lose every tournament you enter to Metaknights, I have a feeling your misguided view will alter drastically.

You mean MKs, Snakes, and Dededes, right?

And the few *******s around there that take advantage of stupid *** bullcrap with other chars like ICs or Falco.

 

[TheWii]

I read somewhere that It was not the Brawl team that designed Solid Snakes moves and stuff, it was Hideo Kojima that did all the Snake things and thats why maybe Snake is alittle unbalanced. But Brawl is much more balanced then Melee.

 

[Corigames]

Perhaps Hideo's team did design the moves, but, ultimately, it's the Lead Designer's job to make sure things like the incredible unbalance of his moves isn't overlooked. But Brawl is much less balanced than melee.

 

[Beo]

chain grabs.

Brawl needs an update to a maximum of 3 throws in a row. This would not severely nerf anyone.

Plus Meta Knight. Disjointed hit boxes, fast, multiple jumps. can glide, MACH TORNADO, ****ing overpowered Up B.

Nerf.

 

[AlexX]

But Brawl is much more balanced then Melee.

Only if we go by the number of tournament viable characters. In that case, yes Brawl has more, but mostly because it has more characters.

Then again, more usable characters is generally a good thing.

 

[Corigames]

Wait... so how is going by that logic making Brawl any better?

Melee, you really couldn't play MewTwo, Bowser, Pichu, or Game and Watch in tournament play. Any other person is a viable option.

Brawl, you really can't play Falcon, Puff, Ganon, Yoshi, Sonic, Ness, Samus, and Luigi don't stand a chance in tournament play. Almost any other character is viable.

Yes, Brawl has a higher % of "usable" characters, but it also has a higher number of "unusable" ones. Plus, it has two characters that can only be beaten by each other and only if the person controlling them has an IQ lower than the number of buttons they use.

 

[KosukeKGA]

If infinites dominate, why is every tournament not won by an IC player infiniting everyone to death?

Hylian/Nintendude

 

[Tyser]

Johns thread? Might be too good . . . maybe.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Wait... so how is going by that logic making Brawl any better?

Melee, you really couldn't play MewTwo, Bowser, Pichu, or Game and Watch in tournament play. Any other person is a viable option.

Brawl, you really can't play Falcon, Puff, Ganon, Yoshi, Sonic, Ness, Samus, and Luigi don't stand a chance in tournament play. Almost any other character is viable.

Yes, Brawl has a higher % of "usable" characters, but it also has a higher number of "unusable" ones. Plus, it has two characters that can only be beaten by each other and only if the person controlling them has an IQ lower than the number of buttons they use.

Actually, the only real non usable characters were Mewtwo, Kirby and Pichu as all other characters saw some high level use. Game & Watch in particular saw quite a bit of use from Chudat even in MLG and obviously DireVulcan. Of all characters, only the bottom three never really had a player take them to top ten at any major tournament(I was gonna include Boozer in that list but then I remembered that Gimpy did in fact get 9th at UCLA V)

 

[Yuna]

Only if we go by the number of tournament viable characters. In that case, yes Brawl has more, but mostly because it has more characters.

Then again, more usable characters is generally a good thing.

Only, that's relative.

A lot of people do not realize that in Melee, everyone down to Link on the Tier List were "usable" in tournaments. As in, they all stood a chance of winning tournaments. Some of them, obviously, just had to work harder than others. But there was nothing really stopping a Link from winning unless he only faced Foxes who knew how to infinite him perfectly and then he could just switch to, say, Doctor Mario, just as much as a Fox could switch to Sheik if he went up against a really good Marth.

Now in Brawl, there are relatively more characters that can compete... only are there? So the Mid Tier is larger, there are more characters who can compete... against each other! But does that really matter when the Mid Tier is so hugely overpowered by the Top Tier? Sure, the mids can do well... against each other, but they can't really do much against the Tops. Balance?

 

[KosukeKGA]

Snake has magic toes and fingers.

 

[Inui]

You mean MKs, Snakes, and Dededes, right?

And the few *******s around there that take advantage of stupid *** bullcrap with other chars like ICs or Falco.

I win tournaments with Marth. So does Roy R.

Actually, the only real non usable characters were Mewtwo, Kirby and Pichu as all other characters saw some high level use. Game & Watch in particular saw quite a bit of use from Chudat even in MLG and obviously DireVulcan. Of all characters, only the bottom three never really had a player take them to top ten at any major tournament(I was gonna include Boozer in that list but then I remembered that Gimpy did in fact get 9th at UCLA V)

Naw, those characters won, too.

 

[MorpheusVGX]

Lower and Bottom tiered characters should excel more in mindgames, instead of relying on technical skill. I went to a tournament a few days ago, and most of the characters that I had played before I did good against. Then I fought this good kirby, and I hardly ever fight them so I was unprepared for it, and he fared well against me.
The person that won first place was this MetaKnight that was amazing, it didn't even give me a chance to breath with my luigi, and it was basically dangerous wherever I was, whether I was the aggresor or the defender, didn't even have a chance.

Ok and another thing, I don't think you can really discuss the "balance" in brawl unless you include items/final smashes. When Sakurai made the game he intended for items to be on, and probably designed it like that (metaknight has a bad Final Smash).
Although I never use items, its not reasonable to criticize brawl based on the artificial rules that we have given it, if all items were always on I'm sure the tier list would be ALOT different.

I totally agree. So yes.. you can criticize Brawl from a competitive point of view. But don't mess with Sakurai because he designed a game to be played with items and final smashes. You are all asking for a fighting game, and this game is not that. It is similar as if you could switch all items off on mario kart and compare it with Gran Turismo as a racing game. The competitive scene is a minority.

 

[fkacyan]

I totally agree. So yes.. you can criticize Brawl from a competitive point of view. But don't mess with Sakurai because he designed a game to be played with items and final smashes. You are all asking for a fighting game, and this game is not that. It is similar as if you could switch all items off on mario kart and compare it with Gran Turismo as a racing game. The competitive scene is a minority.

It's also the group of people you can count on to buy every game. It's ******** to alienate your core audience.

 

[MorpheusVGX]

Yeap, I know hardcore gamers also have great importance. The truth is that I consider this game as my favorite of all time, and is not about 1 vs 1 . I play with everything one. Survival matches FFA or team battles. That experience is what I love from this game. To me.. 1 vs 1 skills are also used on FFA everything On matches so I learn interesting things here ^^

I went out of topic, sorry. I want to add that many moves were corrected so they could prove useful. Brawl has more usable moves in general that Melee, I mentioned it before , but this time I am talking about things like multiple hits hitting A ( Falco's spin, fox kicks, kirby's machine punch, etc). Those moves were given greater range so they could be used. Another improvement in balance.

 

[Zankoku]

None of the Smash games were about competitive play, they just happened to be playable competitvely.

Claiming that a couple decent-good characters suddenly have better attacks while not looking at things like Ganondorf's Warlock Punch, ROB's whatever-the-hell that side+B is, and Samus' pathetic excuse for a Super Missile does not really help your argument on "better balance."

 

[ShadowLink84]

Brawl, you really can't play Falcon, Puff, Ganon, Yoshi, Sonic, Ness, Samus, and Luigi don't stand a chance in tournament play. Almost any other character is viable.

You do know Sonic and Luigi kill the character soyu mentioned right?

 

[fkacyan]

Yeap, I know hardcore gamers also have great importance. The truth is that I consider this game as my favorite of all time, and is not about 1 vs 1 . I play with everything one. Survival matches FFA or team battles. That experience is what I love from this game. To me.. 1 vs 1 skills are also used on FFA everything On matches so I learn interesting things here ^^

I went out of topic, sorry. I want to add that many moves were corrected so they could prove useful. Brawl has more usable moves in general that Melee, I mentioned it before , but this time I am talking about things like multiple hits hitting A ( Falco's spin, fox kicks, kirby's machine punch, etc). Those moves were given greater range so they could be used. Another improvement in balance.

God, please don't talk about balance. You have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Mr.Victory07]

Only, that's relative.

A lot of people do not realize that in Melee, everyone down to Link on the Tier List were "usable" in tournaments. As in, they all stood a chance of winning tournaments. Some of them, obviously, just had to work harder than others. But there was nothing really stopping a Link from winning unless he only faced Foxes who knew how to infinite him perfectly and then he could just switch to, say, Doctor Mario, just as much as a Fox could switch to Sheik if he went up against a really good Marth.

Now in Brawl, there are relatively more characters that can compete... only are there? So the Mid Tier is larger, there are more characters who can compete... against each other! But does that really matter when the Mid Tier is so hugely overpowered by the Top Tier? Sure, the mids can do well... against each other, but they can't really do much against the Tops. Balance?

Thats why you counterpick Snake or MK. Or DK, i hear he beats them both

 

[Yuna]

I totally agree. So yes.. you can criticize Brawl from a competitive point of view. But don't mess with Sakurai because he designed a game to be played with items and final smashes. You are all asking for a fighting game, and this game is not that. It is similar as if you could switch all items off on mario kart and compare it with Gran Turismo as a racing game. The competitive scene is a minority.

Sakurai claimed he would try to balance the game out. Without items, Smash Balls (which are items, BTW) and all stages on, the game is not balanced.

With them all on, the game is so cataclysmically imbalanced the game is literally geared towards a select 5 or so characters to win. If Sakurai designed the game with item balance in mind, then he failed horribly.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

To me.. 1 vs 1 skills are also used on FFA everything On matches so I learn interesting things here ^^

i also find that some skills used in 1vs1 are useful in FFA and teams too. but i turned items off >_>

 

[MorpheusVGX]

God, please don't talk about balance. You have no idea what you're talking about.

And you do? I know what I am talking about. Many moves were fixed so they could prove useful. There are so many examples. Ganondorfs Warlock punch is better in Brawl isn't it?
In Melee it was an impossible move to land. Brawl is better. And REMEMBER, it may be a move that can be used in FFA catching someone off guard or in Team Play somehow.

There are more fixed moves than mistakes. There are more usable characters. And... that OH GREAT gap between top tiers and the rest. I don't see it. In my humble opinion, Snake greatest strength is his neutral A combo. They are quick, strong and have good range. If you can avoid being hit by that and you expect it, you can win against him. With Metaknight , the only let's say broken or ubberpowerful move is his Up B. It is quick, powerful and non-punishable. If you are careful of that, you can handle him and win.

I have two videos I want to show, that to me, demonstrate that if Snake is a top character, Fox also is. Here you have a very skilled Snake player vs a very skilled Fox, and Fox was even with him.
I have other video where a Falco destroys a good Snake. This make me think Snake is not ffar broken compared to these two at least.

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=LuODnXy2_gg&fmt=18

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=hMlgFK5CHnk&fmt=18


Here is the Falco one:

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=hMlgFK5CHnk&fmt=18

 

[Fletch]

And you do? I know what I am talking about. Many moves were fixed so they could prove useful. There are so many examples. Ganondorfs Warlock punch is better in Brawl isn't it?
In Melee it was an impossible move to land. Brawl is better. And REMEMBER, it may be a move that can be used in FFA catching someone off guard or in Team Play somehow.

There are more fixed moves than mistakes. There are more usable characters. And... that OH GREAT gap between top tiers and the rest. I don't see it. In my humble opinion, Snake greatest strength is his neutral A combo. They are quick, strong and have good range. If you can avoid being hit by that and you expect it, you can win against him. With Metaknight , the only let's say broken or ubberpowerful move is his Up B. It is quick, powerful and non-punishable. If you are careful of that, you can handle him and win.

I have two videos I want to show, that to me, demonstrate that if Snake is a top character, Fox also is. Here you have a very skilled Snake player vs a very skilled Fox, and Fox was even with him.
I have other video where a Falco destroys a good Snake. This make me think Snake is not ffar broken compared to these two at least.

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=LuODnXy2_gg&fmt=18

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=hMlgFK5CHnk&fmt=18


Here is the Falco one:

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=hMlgFK5CHnk&fmt=18

You posted the same video twice for the Falco one...