Brawl - More balanced than Melee? Lie or truth?

[Yuna]

oh. how do you become a premium member?

You donate a small amount of money to SWF so they can keep the site running. Dunno what the minimum amount is, if it's $5 or $10 or something.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

You donate a small amount of money to SWF so they can keep the site running. Dunno what the minimum amount is, if it's $5 or $10 or something.

should have known lol, is nothing free these days? well when i have a steady enough job maybe i will donate but college students are normally poor anyway

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

By forking over some dough.

 

[Toadsanime]

Regarding convincing/telling me to leave the thread:

Quotes or it didn't happen.

Here are just a few from the last couple of posts from you directed at me. There were many more posts I haven't checked directed at me before this which may also contain examples.

I was also gently trying to tell you "Stop posting in this thread if this is all you're going to say because it's clear you do not know enough to post in this thread".

I said that you have to be a Competitive player to know enough to participate in this discussion.

Competitive players don't know enough to be a part of this discussion.

I told you this thread has no place for people just stomping in and stating their opinions.

In this thread, you kinda need it. We have no need for blind opinions here. I told you this.

Then you probably don't know the game on a deeper, Competitive level and if you don't, well, I don't understand why you're in this thread.

There's plenty more where that came from, but I haven't enough time to scam back through more pages for a more pure example.
You clearly wanted me out.

 

[Yuna]

Regarding convincing/telling me to leave the thread:

Here are just a few from the last couple of posts from you directed at me. There were many more posts I haven't checked directed at me before this which may also contain examples.

There's plenty more where that came from, but I haven't enough time to scam back through more pages for a more pure example.
You clearly wanted me out.

But you see, not a single one of those quotes expressively state "Stop posting in this thread!", because I do not do that to people. I merely suggested that maybe you're not fit to participate in this discussion.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

On the one side is the Yuna v. Toadsanime debate, and on the other is the decidedly unresolvable custom stage debate. How about a topic we can make progress on.

Such as "which characters will become higher tiered than their current ranking?"

I vote Pokemon Trainer. He can't be counterpicked easily, because he only needs to use two of his pokemon to fight effectively, leaving the weakest one out in any given matchup.

EDIT: The problem with the custom stage debate is that there is no good reason to not use custom stages, but at the same time there is little reason to use the custom stages and go through the effort of making an official legal custom stage list. So neither side has an effective arguement with which to convince the other side that they are in the right.

 

[Yuna]

I vote Pokemon Trainer. He can't be counterpicked easily, because he only needs to use two of his pokemon to fight effectively, leaving the weakest one out in any given matchup.

Stop it with the PT BS.

If a character is good against all of his Pokémons, that's a clear counterpick right there. Just because he has 3 different movesets does not randomly make him better if the movesets he has aren't very good to begin with.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

on the PT. yes the PT cannot be sucessfully counter picked, but all 3 pokemon are really nothing special alone. whenever pkmn exchanged is used thats a free hit for the opponent too. and wasn't the issue of why the PT is not so good done like about 100 pages ago? also aren't there some characters that can sucessfully counter 2 of the PT's pkmn?

 

[The Halloween Captain]

I don't think any one character is good against all his movesets.

And Yuna, Toadsanime, stop the "right to post" BS. I am up for an interesting debate, but watching two people argue over whether they insulted eachother or not is not my idea of an interesting debate.

Actually, go ahead. Argue over who insulted who.

 

[Gishnak]

Creating stages for the tournament scene is foolish for several reasons that have been mentioned already: too difficult to implement, not necessary, and the stage builder is ****. Have you guys tried to mess around with it? It is very, very limited, especially if one intends on making a 'neutral' stage.

However, the one thing I disagree about is that we should just play the game were dealt and not attempt to use custom content to make it better. Why not? If some type of customized content suddenly made the mediocrity that is brawl more interesting/competitive/more fun, and everyone agreed, why wouldn't we adopt this?

Many games have custom content that become the norm or at least widely played. Counterstrike? Many FPS games notably. Many have created levels that are tournament friendly, etc etc.

I know that this is less feasible for fighting games, especially one with so few customizing options. But why just settle with playing Sakuri's ****ty content would there could be better options with the same game? (Although, as I said earlier, stage builder is ****, and we have no option to improve the game significantly so this discussion is moot)

 

[Gishnak]

And THC, you're wrong about PT. MK> all of PTs.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

A repeat: against MK, Ivysaur primary, Charizard secondary, battle probably uphill.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

@Gishnak the stage creator topic died like 4 post ago since its an utter stalemate we are currently on which characters can rise in tiers.

@THC you established a while back that within the PT is a counter to Olimar(charizard) and MK(ivysaur) but how do the other 2 fair against them? since its not really effective to use pkmn exchange midfight. and im pretty sure theres a few characters who counter at least 2 of the pkmn with a neutral on the other one, or only counter one but don't do bad against the other 2.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

PT's problem is pretty obvious: The whole is not more than the sums of each part. If you could magically use any of them at any time you like, it would perhaps be the case but you can only use one - under average to say the least - Pokemon at a time. You have a mediocre fighter in battle and you can exchange him with another mediocre fighter but they'll never be great althogether. The developers might have thought so but the result shows, that they're wrong

 

[Yuna]

A repeat: against MK, Ivysaur primary, Charizard secondary, battle probably uphill.

O... K... so you admit that Meta-Knight does indeed beat all of Pokémon Trainer's Pokémon, thus, he's a great counterpick against PT?

 

[JarryLombardi]

to be off the subject, i hate playing zelda, shes been like ultra beefed up in brawl. her moves are insanley powerfull, and as for speed, she has sheik, her smash attacks like suck you in, she can spam that dam fireball thing that can actually kill you.....i mean, wtf???!!
but i still pwn her with falco(Y)

 

[kin3tic-c4jun-3]

About the custom stages for balance...

"We should make custom stages for balancing, and more interesting levels."
VS
"We should not make custom stages, becasue then where does it stop? We play what we're dealt."

I don't know why no one has commented on this, but BOTH arguments are perfectly valid and justified.

When I played Unreal Tournament, I cannot count the amount of custom content that was used in tournaments... yes, for money even.

When I play Starcraft, I can't begin to tell you how many maps are made or simply revamped for MLG purposes.

It all comes down to the game/community. Some games allow this, becasue the developers and community work together. In Starcraft, a level editor is included, becasue Blizzard and the people hosting those tournaments WANT to host tournaments using hand-picked custom content. Players in Asia play alot differently and for their tournaments it's OK to use these officially sanctioned maps; the community is just different.

Now I'm only going to say this once, and it was a hard truth for me myself to learn:

Brawl is not this type of game.

It is too much trouble to have every tournament player download custom stages uploaded somebody's SD card, on to their Wii, using a gimped internet connection, from a site that isn't sanctioned, with limited space on their Wii, to play a level that offers little more than elevated platforms and.... fallthroughs?

It's jsut not going to happen with this game. There is almost no support from Nintendo when it comes to tournaments, and there's barely a viable way to distribute community content to the masses. This is a home console we're talking about, not a PC, in which a PC is connected to EVERYTHING and EVERYONE.

I hope you can see my point...

And one last thing I want to point out to certain individuals on this thread, which I THINK others already tried to point out earlier, is that SOMETIMES, in relative terms, opinions are wrong.

Despite what you've been told by fantasizing dreamers, or the TV, or your mom, or your teachers at school... There will come a time in your life when you will be wrong. And it will suck, and you'll hate it, and you'll cry, and you won't believe it, and you'll justify it... But sooner or later you'll realize that all this time you've been exposed to the wrong situations, that what someone told you or showed you is not always absolute... that opinion you had formed was based on things that, really, weren't accurate! But the glorious thing about being wrong; the thing that keeps humanity flowing upward to the heavens, is that in being wrong, we can LEARN from our mistakes, and make it better. If you don't try to learn, then you will only spiral downward towards the heaping piles of filth and scrubs, and that, my fellow posters, is just plain wrong.

Poetic enough?

 

[The Halloween Captain]

O.K. - MK is not a great counter for PT because of all of Ivysaur's anti-aerial qualities - MK's a soft counterpick at best. Level editor could allow for more custom neutral stages than could fit on a wii, so it doesn't really matter if you have all of them - there wouldn't be enough storage space anyway. Brawl is not the type of game that would include custom content in tournaments, but that does not mean Brawl needs to be the type of game that excludes custom content - rather, a strong community of purists and a lack of willingness make custom stages impractical for now. When battling Olimar, it is necesary to fight slightly differently then I personally am used to, and PT has a lot of trouble in this matchup - because Charizard has strong counterpick qualities, I would start with him, keep him in as long as possible, and stall with Squirtle and Ivysaur so as to replenish Charizard's stamina.

Also, I think Luigi will end up in a higher tier position than he his currently in. Luigi's lack of friction enables a lot of unusually spaced attacks that still need to be perfected, and Luigi seems like a character that needs time for discovering good playstyles because of floatiness and friction issues.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Also, I think Luigi will end up in a higher tier position than he his currently in. Luigi's lack of friction enables a lot of unusually spaced attacks that still need to be perfected, and Luigi seems like a character that needs time for discovering good playstyles because of floatiness and friction issues.

what about Yoshi's weird wavedashing like thing? if there was so practical use found for it would that push him up a bit? On Luigi, that friction lack can cause issues too from attacks like Zelda's GTFO Dsmash that if Luigi techs off the ground he'll still be sliding away while Dins is coming towards him. >_>

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Yes, but somehow, it seems more likely that the ability to unusually defy the laws of friction is ultimately more of an advantage than something your opponent can exploit. Also, if I knew a thing about Yoshi, I could comment on him.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

same with me and Luigi lol i'd comment more but because i don't look into Luigi as much i have nothing to say other than his friction benefits/flaws vary. besides luigis not defying too many laws of friction when he wears payless shoes >.>

 

[Gishnak]

O.K. - MK is not a great counter for PT because of all of Ivysaur's anti-aerial qualities.

Ivysaur does not counter or even go even with MK. Trust me on this one. Even the Brawl Character Match-up chart agrees! And we all know how accurate that is.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Ivysaur does not counter or even go even with MK. Trust me on this one. Even the Brawl Character Match-up chart agrees! And we all know how accurate that is.

I am not sure if there is sarcasm in this post or not. However, I will say that I don't bother with the Brawl Character Match-up chart, because we all know how accurate it is.

 

[Yukiwarashi]

I myself disagree with Ivysaur being a counter to MK.

Yes, it's true. Ivysaur is good at discouraging aerial combat, but what you aren't taking into account is Metaknight's broken sword range and his whorenado. What's Ivysaur gonna do against that? Nothing, she's gonna die.

The only Pokemon that stands a bit of a chance against Metaknight is Charizard. His Flamethrower and Rock Smash make it a bit difficult for Metaknight to approach, and god bless Charizard's grab range. On the other hand, he's a big target so Metaknight can still slash him up. But Charizard is way better in this matchup than Ivysaur, who begs to be gimped by Metaknight.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

I don't have enough experience being gimped by computer MKs to disagree with that statement. I have trouble finding guys who are good in my area.

However, at low percentages, I find that Ivysaur seems more effective against MK than Charizard. Ivysaur has that weird priority razor leaf, and Up-b + neutral B make it difficult for MK to approach from the air. Charizard is a close second, and is much better when you need to start worrying about gimping, but early in a match, Ivysaur always seemed more appropriate to me.

EDIT: Also, I apologize if I sounded like I was endorsing Ivysaur as though he were a counter-pick. He is not. He might be neutral, maybe 6-5 advantage at best, but personally, I think of him as simply the best option in this fight, not the perfect choice.

 

[Deleted member]

He just said he gets his info from computors.........wut. Please stop.

Also, u dont know much about PT, so shh. Charizard does ok against olimar but oli has rediculous grab combos on zard. Neutral at best IMO.

 

[Yuna]

O.K. - MK is not a great counter for PT because of all of Ivysaur's anti-aerial qualities - MK's a soft counterpick at best.

Who said "counter"? I said counterpick since he beats all 3 of PT's Pokémon. No, you claiming he doesn't doesn't make it so. What the hell does Ivysaur have on Meta-Knight?

When battling Olimar, it is necesary to fight slightly differently then I personally am used to, and PT has a lot of trouble in this matchup - because Charizard has strong counterpick qualities, I would start with him, keep him in as long as possible, and stall with Squirtle and Ivysaur so as to replenish Charizard's stamina.

"Charizard has strong counterpick qualities"? What does that even mean?

I don't have enough experience being gimped by computer MKs to disagree with that statement. I have trouble finding guys who are good in my area.

However, at low percentages, I find that Ivysaur seems more effective against MK than Charizard. Ivysaur has that weird priority razor leaf, and Up-b + neutral B make it difficult for MK to approach from the air. Charizard is a close second, and is much better when you need to start worrying about gimping, but early in a match, Ivysaur always seemed more appropriate to me.

Razor Leaf is also slowish and has limited range and it's laggy.

EDIT: Also, I apologize if I sounded like I was endorsing Ivysaur as though he were a counter-pick. He is not. He might be neutral, maybe 6-5 advantage at best, but personally, I think of him as simply the best option in this fight, not the perfect choice.

But he isn't.

 

[Falconv1.0]

Yuna, you're was probably touching your face as you read his post, amirite? >.>

lol Ivysaur

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I saw custom stages come up as an option for tourney play.

The problem with this is any stage can give an advantage to a character, even basic ones like Final destination or MarthlandBattlefield give advantages to characters based on how the stage is built.

If you can overcome this by making multiple stages choices then it may become a viable.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Once again, Ivysaurs anti-aerial qualities help make MK a soft counterpick for PT at best. MK is air. Ivysaur is anti-air. I am very clear on this.

"Charizard has strong counterpick qualities" - it means Charizard can out-prioritize the pickmin and generally do better than Olimar in this matchup, using flamethrower, rocksmash, etc. to get past Olimar's Pikmin.

Razor leaf might be laggy and slow, but it is unusually controllable, especially concerning its speed. It can really screw up spot-dodges.

 

[Zankoku]

MK is air? News to me, I thought his horizontal aerial movement was terrible so he usually stuck to the ground or used Tornado.

Go to a tournament and play a real Meta Knight, THC.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

I just finished watching a M2K v. Azen video with MK.

It also just occured to me again that the way I play smash is slightly different than most experienced smashers, and that by my definition of "air combat" everyone spends a lot of time doing aerials.

Here's a vid of Ivysaur v. MK, to better explain what Ivysaur does in the MK battle.

 

[Zankoku]

Actually, that just better explains how people were playing 9 days after Brawl was released.

 

[gantrain05]

actually THC is right, a well played ivysaur can really mess up MK, most of ivy's attacks outrange and outprioritize MK's attacks, not to mention it really isn't that hard to get someone caught in that rediculous Neutral B, which is basically at least a free 30%, but that vid u posted THC really didn't explain much, the MK sucked hard and ivy was allright, im gonna try to get a vid of my friends ivysaur vs my falco or someone elses MK.

 

[Yuna]

I just finished watching a M2K v. Azen video with MK.

It also just occured to me again that the way I play smash is slightly different than most experienced smashers, and that by my definition of "air combat" everyone spends a lot of time doing aerials.

Here's a vid of Ivysaur v. MK, to better explain what Ivysaur does in the MK battle.

Once again your lack of experience and insight into the game shows. Did you ever stop to think that maybe the way you and the people you play/have seen play/computers (yes, you brought computers up, now suffer) play is "wrong"?

Also, Ivysaur's anti-air is barely good. His attacks barely inflict any damage, so what if he's anti-air? It's not like it shuts people down or that he can suddenly win against people. And as Ankoku stated, Meta-Knight, not so much about aerials.

actually THC is right, a well played ivysaur can really mess up MK, most of ivy's attacks outrange and outprioritize MK's attacks, not to mention it really isn't that hard to get someone caught in that rediculous Neutral B, which is basically at least a free 30%, but that vid u posted THC really didn't explain much, the MK sucked hard and ivy was allright, im gonna try to get a vid of my friends ivysaur vs my falco or someone elses MK.

Outranging and outprioritizing =/= Auto-win

Marth outranges and outprioritizes almost every single character in the game, yet he has several hard matchups, not all of which involve projectiles. Said outranging and outprioritizing attacks are generally either slow on startup, superlaggy on cooldown, inflict very little damage or all of the above/two of the above.

Not very good against Meta-Knight who lacks any discernable lag be it startup or cooldown (with a few exceptions).

 

[Crow!]

Lol @ Yuna. Always excited to shut someone down.

For better or for wose, people need to accept that they have been defeated before the fact that they have been defeated will actually make them back down. In an online forum, there is no guarantee this will ever happen.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Yuna, why is it you don't post vids? I'm the first to admit my vids are kinda bad, but I like to have some form of evidence to back up my claims once in a while. Being a PT main, the ability to see an Ivysaur get totally destroyed by metaknight would after all help my game.

Also, I somewhat disagree with the way you compare Ivysaur's range, priority, and speed to Marth's. Ivysaur can really mess up MK by usind his tilts to outrange MK. A lot of Ivysaur's tilts are weak, but have very good range and speed. This is in addition to some of Ivysaur's other attributes (such as that oddly controlled projectile).

 

[Zankoku]

All of Ivysaur's tilts can be shieldgrabbed or shield-dsmashed or shield-up+B'd by Meta Knight.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Also, I somewhat disagree with the way you compare Ivysaur's range, priority, and speed to Marth's. Ivysaur can really mess up MK by usind his tilts to outrange MK. A lot of Ivysaur's tilts are weak, but have very good range and speed. This is in addition to some of Ivysaur's other attributes (such as that oddly controlled projectile).

>___>

Almost every attack Ivysaur HAS is weak, man. Range doesn't mean anything if Metaknight can out-prioritize every attack thrown his way.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Yuna]

Yuna, why is it you don't post vids? I'm the first to admit my vids are kinda bad, but I like to have some form of evidence to back up my claims once in a while. Being a PT main, the ability to see an Ivysaur get totally destroyed by metaknight would after all help my game.

How the hell would I prove that what you say is total BS? By posting vids where Ivysaurs get destroyed by Meta-Knights?

Also, I somewhat disagree with the way you compare Ivysaur's range, priority, and speed to Marth's. Ivysaur can really mess up MK by usind his tilts to outrange MK. A lot of Ivysaur's tilts are weak, but have very good range and speed. This is in addition to some of Ivysaur's other attributes (such as that oddly controlled projectile).

Anoku said: All of Ivysaur's tilts can be shieldgrabbed or shield-dsmashed or shield-up+B'd by Meta Knight.
Smooth Criminal said: Almost every attack Ivysaur HAS is weak, man. Range doesn't mean anything if Metaknight can out-prioritize every attack thrown his way.
I say: What you say is total BS. Ivysaur's attacks are almost all very weak damage-wise. The less damage a move inflicts, the less priority it has, thus, Ivysaur has almost no priority. He has range because of disjointed hitboxes, but that doesn't mean much when he friggin' lags so much Meta-Knight can punish him however he wants on shield or whiff. And so what if Ivysaur actually hits? Bar one of his strongest attacks (which are slow), he'll inflict very little damage. Pscht, Razor Leaf.