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Brawl+ isn't Melee 2.0

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Jiangjunizzy

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With the introduction of Balanced Brawl, many people seem to think that Balanced Brawl is the direction Brawl+ should have went and that Brawl+ is Melee 2.0 in disguise. This is not the case and will never be the case.

Smash64 and Melee left very big shoes to fill. They were both very fast paced, combo centric games that very much rewarded precise, calculated offense. When Brawl came around, people expected nintendo the deliver the same fast paced gameplay that was offered in it's predecessors. And many were left unsatisfied. Regular Brawl is slow, spammy, and extremely safe.

If you are looking at this from a player's point of view who enjoyed what made the tourney-style gameplay of smash64 and Melee so fun, it is easy to imagine what they would've expected from Brawl. That is one of Brawl+'s goals.

Brawl+'s goal is not to emulate Smash64 or Melee, but rather to continue the dynasty that those two games left behind. This does not mean we will add wavedashing or add arbitrary tech skill; it means we will transplant the very essence of what made the Smash series fun to us; and many people agree that we are on the right track. We understand that this kind of gameplay is not everyone's cup of tea, but that was a risk we took when we started the project. And as you can see, Brawl+ is actually doing quite well.

Another important goal of Brawl+ is one that may never be reached, but we'll try our darnest to do it. Character balance. Melee, Smash64 and Brawl were notorious for incredibly unbalanced casts. Some characters just have absolutely no chance against others. Brawl+ will certainly do it's best to give every character a fighting chance, and with the ability to continuously update the game, and hopefully with continued support, we can certainly get as close as possible. One hazard of the whole balance issue, however, are preconceived notions of what characters are considered bad or good. Brawl+ is essentially a new game, so it's hard to say who exactly needs alterations after the new gameplay mechanics are in place.

Anyway, I hope that gives you a better idea of what we are trying to accomplish. You don't have to like it, but please understand what we are trying to do, and what we aren't.

I believe this thread needed to be made to express the intention behind Brawl+ because of the overwhelming amount of people who seem to think that Balanced Brawl is what Brawl+ should've been when we weren't trying to balance Brawl in the first place; but to bring back what made melee and smash64 fun to us to Brawl.
 

JCaesar

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NNID
JCaesar
brawl+'s Goal Is Not To Emulate Smash64 Or Melee, But Rather To Continue The Dynasty That Those Two Games Left Behind.
+
i Believe This Thread Needed To Be Made To Express The Intention Behind Brawl+ Because Of The Overwhelming Amount Of People Who Seem To Think That Balanced Brawl Is What Brawl+ Should've Been When We Weren't Trying To Balance Brawl In The First Place; But To Bring Back What Made Melee And Smash64 Fun To Us To Brawl.
=
Qft
 

GPDP

Smash Ace
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I think, more than anything, clear boundaries need to be drawn to differentiate the two projects and their respective intentions, so as to ward off any sectarian conflicts between supporters.

Brawl+ began life as a few codes to add mechanics present in the two previous games in order to get Brawl to play and feel more like the previous games, specifically Melee. The goal was not character balance, and did not come to seriously incorporate character balance into its development platform until sometime in the middle of the project, when tons of codes had been released, and people began to look ahead, despite the code limit present at the time. It wasn't until the Plusery came about that character balance finally came into fruition as a proper goal of the project.

In taking all of this into account, it makes no sense that people are saying BBrawl is what Brawl+ should've been, when by the time we even began to look at balance, Brawl+ was basically an entirely new game altogether. One that incidentally came to redefine itself as divergent from the Melee formula, as seen by the rejection of MAD, MLC, and ultra high speed gameplay.

I understand that some people do not find the direction that Brawl+ took appealing, but honestly, its goal was never to just balance Brawl. Its goal was to make Brawl a faster, more competitive, more exhilarating game, and we knew from the beginning that this would involve changing many of Brawl's core mechanics which we felt held the game back in these respects.

Of course, not everyone agrees with us in believing the core gameplay of Brawl is fundamentally flawed for tourney gameplay, hence why many stuck to vBrawl, and why BBrawl came into being. And that's fine, really. More power to you all. But it would be nice if supporters of the new project not bash us for taking a much more radical approach towards modifying Brawl for the better. Especially considering the reason BBrawl even exists is due to codes that came about directly as a result of the Brawl+ project.

So, as for boundaries, I think they are pretty clear at this point. BBrawl seeks to balance Brawl within the framework of Brawl itself, believing the core engine of Brawl to be sound. Brawl+ seeks to complete revamp Brawl's mechanics in order to enhance the game for tourney gameplay, and in light of these changes, balance the characters accordingly. It is a matter of conservative and radical approaches toward bettering Brawl.

All in all, there's no reason to fight each other. We have fundamentally different opinions on Brawl's viability as a tourney game, and thus different visions on how to improve it in this regard, but as long as those differences are acknowledged, and no petty attacks and sectarian swipes are hurled, I think we can co-exist.
 

Blank Mauser

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So, as for boundaries, I think they are pretty clear at this point. BBrawl seeks to balance Brawl within the framework of Brawl itself, believing the core engine of Brawl to be sound. Brawl+ seeks to complete revamp Brawl's mechanics in order to enhance the game for tourney gameplay, and in light of these changes, balance the characters accordingly. It is a matter of conservative and radical approaches toward bettering Brawl.
QFT. We share a common trait in that we came to the conclusion of using these codes to improve Brawl. Nothing more, nothing less. There need not be any discouragement from one approach to another. These codes came into being with that fact in mind, so the argument one should overtake anothers place is inane. One could not have came into being without another.

Brawl+ is also the reason the workshop and workshop backroom were formed, so I'd rather not have flaming/trolling against it here of all places, where the construction of it should be embraced and encouraged.
 

Plum

Has never eaten a plum.
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The OP is filled with so much truth it isn't funny.

Great job, and I really hope people can actually take the time to read this.
I know it is asking a lot of the everyday Smashboards user to do something so hard, but there is no excuse for ignorance.

At the same time there is no reason why these two projects can't coexist happily, or at least show each other respect on Smashboards. Any flaming on Smashboards should stop, and people do need to act accordingly while they are here (note the key word is on Smashboards).

These are going to cater to different groups, and some of us just like good ol' fashioned fun speed activate.

And remember folks, for every person who thinks Brawl+ is Melee 2.0, God kills a kitten. Let's save some kittens.
 

CloneHat

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Whoa Jiang, I never knew you were such a fluent writer!

GPDP says B+ was not intended to balance characters originally, that it was just a few codes, but that wasn't Brawl+, that was Brawl with Melee codes. Brawl+ did not exist until all the fundamental goals were in place.

BBrawl is the same as vBrawl, trying to balance out the roster while keeping the main game. Brawl+ also balances the cast to equality, but adds features from past games that make them so fast paced and competitive.

This is how I view the two.
 

Sails

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Entirely correct. Nice thread, and yeah, something like this should be stickied. It's really the only way to help stop threads and discussion like this from popping up.
 

bleyva

Smash Ace
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511
What's the point of the thread?
explained in OP

I believe this thread needed to be made to express the intention behind Brawl+ because of the overwhelming amount of people who seem to think that Balanced Brawl is what Brawl+ should've been when we weren't trying to balance Brawl in the first place; but to bring back what made melee and smash64 fun to us to Brawl.
 

PanzerOceania

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well said, both should prosper seperately, why would anyone want to cause one to fail?

trust me, if the creators of brawl+ wanted melee 2.0 they would have called it that, it's pretty clear that that is not what they want because of all the unmelee like things in brawl+
 

Mattnumbers

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well said, both should prosper seperately, why would anyone want to cause one to fail?

trust me, if the creators of brawl+ wanted melee 2.0 they would have called it that, it's pretty clear that that is not what they want because of all the unmelee like things in brawl+
It was called Melee 2.0 in the beginning, but that wasn't even really Brawl+, that was just Brawl with some codes to make it like Melee.

Nice post Jiang.
 

PanzerOceania

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It was called Melee 2.0 in the beginning, but that wasn't even really Brawl+, that was just Brawl with some codes to make it like Melee.

Nice post Jiang.

yes there were people doing that but those were different people, and a different project, just like balanced brawl is a different project.

There were also people trying to make a smash 64 version of brawl but this had nothing to do with or any affiliation with brawl+
 

Plum

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iuno if there is a need for this thread
The fact that we still get posts about how B+ sucks because it is trying to be Melee shows that we do.

People are ignorant, and people need to understand that B+ is not Melee, rather the Brawl we all hopefully waited for as we checked the Dojo each night to see how amazing it would be.

Some people were willing to deal with the fact that this wasn't the game we wanted, and they may enjoy it even though it wasn't exactly what we wanted. You know what? That's perfectly fine! But don't bash us because we decided to make the game we wanted all along.

If one person comes here to flame B+, reads this and realizes he was wrong, then this was all worth it.
 

skstylez

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wait, when did i bash this project? I play B+ myself. Why didn't the old "what is B+" thread get stickied? I mean nothing against this thread, but that one was loaded with videos and very informative... this is much too specific for a sticky
 

Turbo Ether

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I'm not really concerned with what Brawl+ is called or what it's supposed to be, as i've never particularly cared for the direction that Brawl+ took in the first place. Brawl Balanced is a pleasant surprise for me, because it's more of what I was looking for in a rebalanced version of Brawl.
 

bleyva

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iuno if there is a need for this thread
dude, people actually make threads about who would win in a fight if smash characters existed in real life:dizzy:

at least this thread actually serves a purpose.
 

VietGeek

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I'm not really concerned with what Brawl+ is called or what it's supposed to be, as i've never particularly cared for the direction that Brawl+ took in the first place. Brawl Balanced is a pleasant surprise for me, because it's more of what I was looking for in a rebalanced version of Brawl.
This thread isn't for you then. It's for everyone who said "hey gaiz wtf u talkin about barlw+ doesnt balance anything olol"

Although as Gea kindly pointed out, it's not like these well-educated members of the community will ever take note of this thread anyway.

Ignorance is bliss; sometimes it's better to not care and safely take the side of the majority. ^^
 

Mattnumbers

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yes there were people doing that but those were different people, and a different project, just like balanced brawl is a different project.

There were also people trying to make a smash 64 version of brawl but this had nothing to do with or any affiliation with brawl+
Actually most of the Melee 2.0 crew are a part of Brawl+ now IIRC (or were at some point)
 

PanzerOceania

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Actually most of the Melee 2.0 crew are a part of Brawl+ now IIRC (or were at some point)


I can only think of 2 names

its TRYING to be like melee. keyword
I don't know, I think it far surpasses melee in so many ways.

why imitate something less than what you already have?


One thing I find most interesting is fans of other mods feel free to criticize brawl+ an the basis of "I don't like it" without a lot of facts while from what I have seen in the last day or so not many brawl+ fans are criticizing balanced brawl.

To each his own right? You can't deny the talent and the time put into brawl+ and what it has done for the community overall is staggering.
 

Blank Mauser

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Melee was a good game, our goal is to make Brawl+ a good game also. That is the only trait in which we really are trying to relate to Melee in, but Brawl+ is not trying to be Melee. They are already vastly different games with different strategies for winning.
 

auroreon

Smash Ace
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I think the problem we (those who have shunned it) are having is that we do not feel the base mechanics of Brawl are a problem. The developers of Brawl+ have made it clear that they feel Brawl is an inadequite entry to the SSB franchise and does not have as much worth as a competetive game.
That is why we dislike Brawl+, because it is not trying to simply balance Brawl and remove silly things like tripping, which we believe to be the only real flaws in the games mechanics, it is trying to create an entirely new game that better fits into the style of play in the other two games in the franchise.

In short... We like Brawl, we feel it is just as valid as a competetive game than Melee or 64. The style of play required is just different. The key issue that we disagree on is that you think Brawl is fatally flawed as a competetive game, and we don't.
 

Zodac

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i agree with auroreon, there is no need to call Regular Brawl slow, spammy, and extremely safe like you did in the OP. stop being hypocrites.
 

Epic Kovumon

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I see no wavedash, fox jc shine, etc. So therefore, it's not trying to be like Melee. =/

Exactly, it's been said many times that Brawl+ is trying to retain some of the elements from the previous 2 Smash games while keeping the unique feel that Brawl has.
 

timothyung

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There's no point on arguing who is wrong and who is right.
If you prefer Brawl-styled Brawl with no character balance, play vBrawl.
If you prefer Brawl-styled Brawl with character balance, play BBrawl.
If you prefer Smash-styled Brawl with character balance, play Brawl+.
 

Almas

Smash Lord
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I'd go and fetch my cola bottle and popcorn, but I have better things to do.

I'm closing this thread because the point has been made and it's very rapidly going to fall apart into BB vs B+. Let's just unite under the banner that we all think Brawl needed change.
 
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