Brawl is going to be so much better in 3 years.

[Teran]

No But if you want to go for it, I,m not stoping you. But brawl's metagame may change better or worse(like how it alreadly has, but that's just me) , heck melee is still finding stuff.

I'll just keep playing all three regardless.
That is unless they ban MK. Then I'd quit Brawl, and I don't even main him.

 

[cutter]

Melee is not "balanced" when Sheik has 100-0 matchups against the likes of characters such as Pichu, Pikachu, Yoshi, Ness, Roy, and G&W.

Or take Marth against M2/Ness/Kirby.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

stop whinning i play as pichu and you whin more. But yeah marth and sheik don't take as much skill.
Oh the metagame will inprove because no one will play and WIFI will work better and the few players will be better.

 

[Dark Sonic]

But you don't understand.
The game itself is inherently unbalanced.

Random as **** stages killing competitive play.
Stages with walk off blast zones that Fox can waveshine you off.

The game itself is not meant for competitive play. So Melee players should stop jabbering on about how great and competitive Melee is when it the mechanics and system of the game are competitively flawed, just like all of Smash Bros.

Smash Bros is not, and never will be, a competitively oriented game, and thus its mechanics will always reflect this.

To be perfectly frank, I couldn't care less what a game is designed to be. All that matters to me is what it CAN be. Smash bros gives you A LOT of adjustable settings (items on at different spawn rates, selecting which items can be spawned, selecting which stages appear on RANDOM?, ect.) If some combination of settings happens to yield a fairly balanced, competitive game, then I'm all for it. (I use the term "fairly balanced" loosely as I know melee is on the lower end of competitive games when it comes to balance <_<)

Melee makes a lot of radical changes from it's default settings just to be playable. But those changes turn it into a very deep, very challenging competitive game.

In a sense the system is not really that flawed, since it's adjustable. It came out of the box tuned into the wrong settings (heck, even casuals don't play 2 minute timed matches on Icicle Mountain), but that doesn't mean that the mechanics as a whole are bad...because the game not only lets you change it, but even puts it in an easily accessible menu (no more going to "options" to change stuff, it's at the top of the screen before every game )

But I will concede that on the "default" settings melee is a terrible, terrible competitive game and the smash community had to pretty much gut it to MAKE it playable. Doesn't matter one bit to me since the end result is really good, but I know that matters to some <_<

Melee is not "balanced" when Sheik has 100-0 matchups against the likes of characters such as Pichu, Pikachu, Yoshi, Ness, Roy, and G&W.

Or take Marth against M2/Ness/Kirby.

I don't care how **** the matchups with Top tiers vs Bottom tiers are <_<. I care about how many characters are viable, and so far melee has quite a few if I recall. It's not nearly as balanced as most other fighters, but it's not terrible <_<

 

[thegreatkazoo]

stop whinning i play as pichu and you whin more. But yeah marth and sheik don't take as much skill.
Oh the metagame will inprove because no one will play and WIFI will work better and the few players will be better.

Or you could avoid LAG-Fi altogether.

In short, Brawl really Sucks.

 

[urdailywater]

But you don't understand.
The game itself is inherently unbalanced.

Random as **** stages killing competitive play.
Stages with walk off blast zones that Fox can waveshine you off.

k, fine.

but just like an advanced techniques and combos, turning these things off are part of the game. You use them, because you can and it's part of the games design.

 

[Teran]

To be perfectly frank, I couldn't care less what a game is designed to be. All that matters to me is what it CAN be. Smash bros gives you A LOT of adjustable settings (items on at different spawn rates, selecting which items can be spawned, selecting which stages appear on RANDOM?, ect.) If some combination of settings happens to yield a fairly balanced, competitive game, then I'm all for it. (I use the term "fairly balanced" loosely as I know melee is on the lower end of competitive games when it comes to balance <_<)

Melee makes a lot of radical changes from it's default settings just to be playable. But those changes turn it into a very deep, very challenging competitive game.

In a sense the system is not really that flawed, since it's adjustable. It came out of the box tuned into the wrong settings (heck, even casuals don't play 2 minute timed matches on Icicle Mountain), but that doesn't mean that the mechanics as a whole are bad...because the game not only lets you change it, but even puts it in an easily accessible menu (no more going to "options" to change stuff, it's at the top of the screen before every game )

But I will concede that on the "default" settings melee is a terrible, terrible competitive game and the smash community had to pretty much gut it to MAKE it playable. Doesn't matter one bit to me since the end result is really good, but I know that matters to some <_<

The amount of cutting stuff out, trials of certain things etc to determine whether or not a mechanic allowed a competitive environment seems a bit iffy don't you think?

Also, add the fact that not even the neutral stage system is balanced. Marth will always win on Yoshi's as an example.

Melee is a very technically deep and challenging game, but iunno, I don't like how people always hold it up to be so amazing when it comes to being competitive and use that argument to take a dump on everything else.

@ Urdailywater: The amount of stuff you have to turn off and doctor to achieve the competitive scenario is a bit absurd don't you think?

 

[urdailywater]

@ Urdailywater: The amount of stuff you have to turn off and doctor to achieve the competitive scenario is a bit absurd don't you think?

Not at all, if the design allows it, then I'll choose to accept it and do what I want.

 

['V']

Yeah Melee's a horribly balanced game, but at least it's more fun to watch than Brawl.

 

[Teran]

Not at all, if the design allows it, then I'll choose to accept it and do what I want.

Ok.
Do you agree with Brawl+/Balanced Brawl?

Yeah Melee's a horribly balanced game, but at least it's more fun to watch than Brawl.

I'd rather eat a bowl of worms than watch a Brawl match lol.

 

[thegreatkazoo]

Yeah Melee's a horribly balanced game, but at least it's more fun to watch than Brawl.

What are you smoking?

Play Melee.

 

[urdailywater]

Ok.
Do you agree with Brawl+/Balanced Brawl?
]

edit: i read this wrong, give me a second to edit.

Ok, well, my thoughts are a bit different obviously. The design doesn't allow Brawl+/Balanced Brawl, only tools do, so it's really just the customization / editing of a game in order to make it more competitive. I personally don't mind / agree / whatever..

 

['V']

What are you smoking?

Play Melee.

I do.. The balance between high and low tiers is pretty bad. You cannot deny this.

 

[thegreatkazoo]

I do.. The balance between high and low tiers is pretty bad. You cannot deny this.

Melee gives us this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkF4KuDiRRs&feature=PlayList&p=58139A3DEBBA2224&index=59
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_X86taM_xPE&feature=PlayList&p=58139A3DEBBA2224&index=63

While Brawl gives us this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftVvcswvaVU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQq1vJsL8fg

Tiers be darned, play Melee.

 

[Dark Sonic]

The amount of cutting stuff out, trials of certain things etc to determine whether or not a mechanic allowed a competitive environment seems a bit iffy don't you think?

@ Urdailywater: The amount of stuff you have to turn off and doctor to achieve the competitive scenario is a bit absurd don't you think?

I'm gonna agree with Urdailywater and expand a bit.

Melee is different from a lot of other fighters in that it is HIGHLY CUSTOMIZABLE. The game practically shoves options down your throat, so I don't see why using them makes melee less of a competitive game. Items weren't "cut out," they were "turned off." Unbalanced stages are not a problem because you have the option to actually hit random and still not get them.

You then ask him if he agrees with Brawl+/Balanced brawl, which I think is a moot point regardless. Brawl+/Balanced Brawl use outside tools to edit the game, which is a completely different example. Melee is just changing in game settings, no different than how fighters change the number of rounds per match to 3/5 from the 2/3 default. Yes melee gives you more drastic options, but the fact remains that the game GIVES them to for the sole purpose of changing how it's played to whatever you want it to be.

What happens when you get options like these is that you can now make many different varients of the game, to the point where you could even call them different games entirely. "Casual melee" and "competitive melee" can exist as two entirely seperate entities within the same package, and they should be treated seperately when it comes to discussing them. No one is saying that melee doesn't have some extremely unbalanced stages, or crazy random **** that's unfit for competitive play. What we're saying is....why does that matter when the game lets you turn them off?


Also, that Marth on YS example was terrible <_<. That stage happens to also favor Fox, Shiek, Falco, Peach (I'm completely serious. Not AGAINST Marth, but against someone like Samus this stage is a godsend), Ganondorf, Bowser, ect, ect. Fox vs Marth on YS is hailed as one of the most even matchup scenerios in the game, yet you say "Marth always wins?"

 

['V']

Melee gives us this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkF4KuDiRRs&feature=PlayList&p=58139A3DEBBA2224&index=59
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_X86taM_xPE&feature=PlayList&p=58139A3DEBBA2224&index=63

Jigglypuff and Peach are both high tier...?

But I digress. I do enjoy Melee much more than I do Brawl. It's much easier to get me to play melee than it is to get me to play Brawl.

 

[Teran]

Also, that Marth on YS example was terrible <_<. That stage happens to also favor Fox, Shiek, Falco, Peach (I'm completely serious. Not AGAINST Marth, but against someone like Samus this stage is a godsend), Ganondorf, Bowser, ect, ect. Fox vs Marth on YS is hailed as one of the most even matchup scenerios in the game, yet you say "Marth always wins?"

Marth vs Fox/Falco on Final Destination.
Neutral stage. Top tier characters. CG ****. That's not balance. That's varations giving advantages to a character due to mechanics of the game.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

That's being gay. and how did this turn into melee isn't balcned or whatever?

 

[ETWIST51294]

Marth vs Fox/Falco on Final Destination.
Neutral stage. Top tier characters. CG ****. That's not balance. That's varations giving advantages to a character due to mechanics of the game.

Fox vs Marth on FD waveshine combo ****, up throw up air ****.

Falco vs Marth on FD PEW PEW ****.

You have to get the grab first, which is hard against a skilled player.

 

[Teran]

Melee players constantly insulting Brawl for lacking competitive merit and balance is how it happened.

I don't see significant difference in the nature of the balance of the games to be honest.

@ETW: Marth trips to the shine in PAL Melee lol. Silly me with my PAL Melee.
Also, it's not as simple as just saying *pew pew*. Marth has the mobility to get through lasers.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Marth vs Fox/Falco on Final Destination.
Neutral stage. Top tier characters. CG ****. That's not balance. That's varations giving advantages to a character due to mechanics of the game.

umm...that's an even matchup too dude <_<. Marth players often hate taking Falco to FD because he can laser camp. He'd rather go battlefield and deal with the platform combos cause it's more fun (not really that much easier to deal with, but dealing with laser camping on non platform stages is frustrating).

Dude, stop picking the worst examples. If you wanted a good one, you should've jumped on Falco vs Ganon on FD, or Fox vs Peach on pokemon stadium, Shiek vs Falcon on Foutain of Dreams, or something. They're out there, look harder

Also, neutral system is partially fixed by the stage striking system.

And I'm not insulting brawl players <_<

 

[Sosuke]

up throw up air ****.

Sooomeone hasn't seen the Kirby picture of how to get out of this.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Sooomeone hasn't seen the Kirby picture of how to get out of this.

someone doesn't know how to space uairs so that only the second hit makes contact

Also, upthrow shinebair is pretty **** too.

 

[Teran]

umm...that's an even matchup too dude <_<. Marth players often hate taking Falco to FD because he can laser camp. He'd rather go battlefield and deal with the platform combos cause it's more fun (not really that much easier to deal with, but dealing with laser camping on non platform stages is frustrating).

As a Falco main, I would never like to face Marth on FD.
Ever.

 

[ETWIST51294]

Sooomeone hasn't seen the Kirby picture of how to get out of this.

SDI, but it still happens sometimes.

 

[Sosuke]

Haha, point taken guys.


I really want to find that picture now. xD

 

[Dark Sonic]

As a Falco main, I would never like to face Marth on FD.
Ever.

Then you don't camp hard enough

Not to mention that a chaingrab doesn't always end in death since with good DI you'll easily survive/avoid any finishers.

 

[Teran]

Then you don't camp hard enough

Not to mention that a chaingrab doesn't always end in death since with good DI you'll easily survive/avoid any finishers.

Lol maybe, but I don't like the feeling of being on the defense all the time.
Pokémon Stadium and Dream Land 64 are my personal favourite stages. Fountain of Dreams is awesome but in the the sense that it suits my Falco well.

That's true, but % is still %, and Marth isn't an easy character to make the make the damage back on.

 

[ETWIST51294]

Haha, point taken guys.


I really want to find that picture now. xD

I wanna see it...>_> I've never seen it before. Can you show me?

 

[Teran]

This is the best discussion I've ever had here.
Not a single flame.

*Goes to Meta Knight thread and dies*

 

[urdailywater]

I wanna see it...>_> I've never seen it before. Can you show me?

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=217426

 

[Dark Sonic]

Lol maybe, but I don't like the feeling of being on the defense all the time.
Pokémon Stadium and Dream Land 64 are my personal favourite stages. Fountain of Dreams is awesome but in the the sense that it suits my Falco well.

That's true, but % is still %, and Marth isn't an easy character to make the make the damage back on.

Some Falcos like it better than others. Everyone has their favorite stages (my Peach friend loves YS and hates DL for example).

The % isn't really THAT difficult to get back, since lasering really hampers Marth's gameplay and he's spending most of the match trying to get around them. That chaingrab is what balances out the matchup and keeps it from being in Falco's favor imo. On other stages they both get different advantages (mostly platform combos, but Falco gets a few recovery mixups and Marth gets a more powerful zoning game), it's really quite interesting that neither of them destroy each other on any stage (Marth gains a slight advantage on BF, but Falco's got FoD )

 

[ETWIST51294]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=217426

Tank youuuu. That was amazing.

This is the best discussion I've ever had here.
Not a single flame.

*Goes to Meta Knight thread and dies*

No bull****, best discusion eva.

I hate the MK thread, still can't believe I voted ban.

 

[Sosuke]

Lol, thanks Water.

I couldn't even find it. >_>

 

[Kinzer]

Melee gives us this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkF4KuDiRRs&feature=PlayList&p=58139A3DEBBA2224&index=59
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_X86taM_xPE&feature=PlayList&p=58139A3DEBBA2224&index=63

While Brawl gives us this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftVvcswvaVU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQq1vJsL8fg

Tiers be darned, play Melee.

My Goodness.

I know the video comparisons are suppose to be a joke and probably somewhat biased anyway, but please at least try to make it more convincing than picking up the most anticipated melee set compared to a random wi-fi match that isn't even played by good players only somewhat following the competitive ruleset (how many stock did they have... how about a timer?) which can be explained because the video/match was released/played 2 months after the game came out. :/

Yeah, I'm ranting for no reason but I've got nothing else better to do.

 

[mountain_tiger]

If you guys like Melee better, then that's fair enough. But instead of saying how poor Brawl is competitively, why can't you simply not play Brawl and go back to Melee, while us lot that like Brawl will try to improve its metagame?

 

[cookieM0Nster]

Who knows if Brawl will be good in 3 years. For all we know, hacking communities might take over O_O.

I have a good feeling we're gonna be ok. Hopefully something happens soon.

Actually, Brawl is the most hacked game in existance.

At the moment, we have a moveset editor (released two days ago, and yet we have made a lot of progress), Brawl+ (a MUCH BETTER version of Brawl, which incorperates the best parts of all 3 games and adds them into one pile of epicness), Texture Hacking, Music Hacking (we can put our own music into the game, no cables or anything, just an SD card), "For te Lolz" Hacking (just messing around with funny stuff), WiFi Hacking (we bypassed the error code) and more.

I definitely believe that Hacking will take over in three years.

 

[IxxI]

If Brawl does die in 3 years, everyone can start looking forward to competitive Starcraft 2 when it comes out.

Oh, how my grades will drop, drop, drop.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Actually, Brawl is the most hacked game in existance.

At the moment, we have a moveset editor (released two days ago, and yet we have made a lot of progress), Brawl+ (a MUCH BETTER version of Brawl, which incorperates the best parts of all 3 games and adds them into one pile of epicness), Texture Hacking, Music Hacking (we can put our own music into the game, no cables or anything, just an SD card), "For te Lolz" Hacking (just messing around with funny stuff), WiFi Hacking (we bypassed the error code) and more.

I definitely believe that Hacking will take over in three years.

Putting your own music into Brawl? Making your own moves? Improved WiFi?

Assuming you're telling the truth, all of this sounds bloody amazing. Tell me more!

 

[cookieM0Nster]

Putting your own music into Brawl? Making your own moves? Improved WiFi?

Assuming you're telling the truth, all of this sounds bloody amazing. Tell me more!

Yes I am telling the truth.

and WiFi hacking is just like Warioman on wifi lol

and making our own moves isnt what you think. we cant replace animations, but we can edit hitboxes, damage, grab range size, grab damage, Graphical effects, Sound Effects, and more.

It is absolutely amazing when you learn how to use it.