Brawl Computers: Q&A (1 Player Directory Included)

[Zatchiel]

I find melee cpus to be more challenging that brawl cpus.

That's not what i'm getting at. Nonetheless, that's most likely a bad thing.

It shouldn't be THAT hard to make CPUs that are capable of chaingrabbing. Just make a file that says "if your character is X and you grab the opponent at Y percent range, dthrow then go for another grab". It seems too easy, which indicates that I'm missing something.

1. It would be broken. Simply, broken. Think about someone like Snake. You REALLY want the CPU to read your actions and pseudo you to 999% and finish with Utilt? It's possible by humans, but CPUs can make it absolute.

2. Telling the percent range doesn't verify who the CG is possible on or what they could do to escape.

3. CGs can also work with various throws, like fthrow. Pseudo CGs like Ganon's Flame Choke and Snake's Dthrow are also legit.

4. If CPUs had the knowledge to use CG, Ice Climber CPUs would be able to JV 4 stock, given the proper variables.

Adding CG knowledge would make them more up to date, but it could put humans at a further disadvantage.

 

[Life]

What I'm saying is that AI programming can't be possibly as difficult as we act like it is.

And yes, I'm saying to make them that broken. If you can't handle a CG-bot, how do you handle a human IC main? And of course, remember that we have nine CPU levels.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Learning AI =/= Programmed AI in terms of difficulty.

 

[Sephy95]

That's not what i'm getting at. Nonetheless, that's most likely a bad thing.


1. It would be broken. Simply, broken. Think about someone like Snake. You REALLY want the CPU to read your actions and pseudo you to 999% and finish with Utilt? It's possible by humans, but CPUs can make it absolute.

2. Telling the percent range doesn't verify who the CG is possible on or what they could do to escape.

3. CGs can also work with various throws, like fthrow. Pseudo CGs like Ganon's Flame Choke and Snake's Dthrow are also legit.

4. If CPUs had the knowledge to use CG, Ice Climber CPUs would be able to JV 4 stock, given the proper variables.

Adding CG knowledge would make them more up to date, but it could put humans at a further disadvantage.

My bad. So your saying you can read melee cpus better than brawl cpus? How is it a bad thing that I find melee cpus harder? Honestly I havent played melee in a good while so maybe they arent so hard anymore.

 

[Life]

I'd actually rather not have learning AI (or at least, not an AI that learns between matches) as that'd screw over the replays. But that's besides the point.

Even if you took a Falco AI and gave it the ability to CG and DACUS, that'd be more than we've done so far (besides the aforementioned laserbot).

 

[Zatchiel]

What I'm saying is that AI programming can't be possibly as difficult as we act like it is.

And yes, I'm saying to make them that broken. If you can't handle a CG-bot, how do you handle a human IC main? And of course, remember that we have nine CPU levels.

If level 9 CPUs were broken, they'd read everything, avoid all that could be avoided, and theoretically JV 4 stock anything but itself, in which instance the match would be unable to end and both would dodge everything and do nothing they sense could be punished in some fashion.
I'd love to have learning CPUs, but giving them a chance at breakthrough of intellegence (aka "Breaking them") is far beyond desire.

Learning AI =/= Programmed AI in terms of difficulty.

This. Learning AI is uncomparable to programmed AI. It would weaken the use of CPUs to near if not complete purposeless.

So your saying you can read melee cpus better than brawl cpus?

Not to sound rude or anything, but i'm afraid that's exactly what i'm saying. Melee CPUs are programmed; You ever notice Jab or Nair being excessively used? Getting a grab attempt if you throw up a shield? Falcon SDing after using Raptor Boost in attempt to follow up Dthrow (this i find absolutely hilarious and i spike the crap out of them for attempting it)?

I'd actually rather not have learning AI (or at least, not an AI that learns between matches) as that'd screw over the replays. But that's besides the point.

Even if you took a Falco AI and gave it the ability to CG and DACUS, that'd be more than we've done so far (besides the aforementioned laserbot).

One way to fix it: Make Replays video files rather than button input recordings. We have the technology to do this, correct?

Please explain to me what we've done so far. It compels me to believe that you're saying giving the AI knowledge of two ATs will allow it to extend its aresnal with further discovery? I'm having a really hard time understanding what you meant by that.

 

[Sephy95]

If level 9 CPUs were broken, they'd read everything, avoid all that could be avoided, and theoretically JV 4 stock anything but itself, in which instance the match would be unable to end and both would dodge everything and do nothing they sense could be punished in some fashion.
I'd love to have learning CPUs, but giving them a chance at breakthrough of intellegence (aka "Breaking them") is far beyond desire.


This. Learning AI is uncomparable to programmed AI. It would weaken the use of CPUs to near if not complete purposeless.


Not to sound rude or anything, but i'm afraid that's exactly what i'm saying. Melee CPUs are programmed; You ever notice Jab or Nair being excessively used? Getting a grab attempt if you throw up a shield? Falcon SDing after using Raptor Boost in attempt to follow up Dthrow (this i find absolutely hilarious and i spike the crap out of them for attempting it)?


One way to fix it: Make Replays video files rather than button input recordings. We have the technology to do this, correct?

Please explain to me what we've done so far. It compels me to believe that you're saying giving the AI knowledge of two ATs will allow it to extend its aresnal with further discovery? I'm having a really hard time understanding what you meant by that.

Hmmm, makes sense. I think I'll need to play more melee.

 

[SupaSairentoZ7℠]

The CPU is annoying enough. Perfect Power Shielding, ground dodge and on their smash attacks when you can't shield or dodge it. Overall with the worst how they completely gang up on you regardless which gets on my nerves. Nah...

 

[Sephy95]

The CPU is annoying enough. Perfect Power Shielding, ground dodge and on their smash attacks when you can't shield or dodge it. Overall with the worst how they completely gang up on you regardless which gets on my nerves. Nah...

The melee cpus are definitely harder. Their shielding is very well placed.

 

[SupaSairentoZ7℠]

The melee cpus are definitely harder. Their shielding is very well placed.

Been forever since I played Melee it seems but I always had people to play with. If the CPU actually learned your tactics it would be even more annoying.

 

[Sephy95]

Been forever since I played Melee it seems but I always had people to play with. If the CPU actually learned your tactics it would be even more annoying.

Apparently they cant learn. They'll just adapt to your tactics and try to counterattack.

 

[SupaSairentoZ7℠]

Apparently they cant learn. They'll just adapt to your tactics and try to counterattack.

Which I hated. When I played All-Star mode and Classic.

 

[Life]

Zatch I never said anything about making CPUs learn. I said we should program ATs into them, maybe do some tweaking, and finally have something worth practicing against when we're alone.

 

[Sephy95]

Which I hated. When I played All-Star mode and Classic.

Yeah but they're pretty vulnerable at some points like in trying to recover. CPUs are just kinda stupid also.

 

[SupaSairentoZ7℠]

Yeah but they're pretty vulnerable at some points like in trying to recover. CPUs are just kinda stupid also.

I wait for those moments. XD

 

[AtticusFinch]

Melee= Luigi didn't know how to up b, he only knew side b, it's like it was't even programed in his move set xD

 

[Zatchiel]

Zatch I never said anything about making CPUs learn. I said we should program ATs into them, maybe do some tweaking, and finally have something worth practicing against when we're alone.

It was directed at everyone thinking that programmed CPUs would be better in practice than learning AI. That's why i didn't quote your post with that reply.

 

[-LzR-]

Melee CPU hard? Wtf o_o

They are the lamest AI I have ever seen in pretty much any game.

Here is what happened against Captain Falcon bot (lv9): He runs towards me, sometimes using dash attack. If not, he would stop, wait a sec and do a jab combo.

Oh that was it already. Not counting the powershields and everything, but they do have to have something cool at least.

Also, once I was fighting a Mario bot. I practiced Puff so I kept doing wall of pains (not hitting the opponent) and the Mario taunted >_>

Good bots ftw

 

[Grim Tuesday]

If you think Melee AI is good, you aren't an Ice Climbers player. Simple as that.

 

[Ghostbone]

Level 9 Ganon is so good.

Obviously.

 

[SupaSairentoZ7℠]

Melee CPU hard? Wtf o_o

They are the lamest AI I have ever seen in pretty much any game.

Here is what happened against Captain Falcon bot (lv9): He runs towards me, sometimes using dash attack. If not, he would stop, wait a sec and do a jab combo.

Oh that was it already. Not counting the powershields and everything, but they do have to have something cool at least.

Also, once I was fighting a Mario bot. I practiced Puff so I kept doing wall of pains (not hitting the opponent) and the Mario taunted >_>

Good bots ftw

LOL on Mario taunting.XD

 

[-LzR-]

Yeah and that's not the only time. I wonder if they do have AI at all xD

 

[SupaSairentoZ7℠]

Yeah and that's not the only time. I wonder if they do have AI at all xD

Hard to really understand the AI. Besides them taunting when everyone but them is KO they do it when they KO you even if there are others on the stage.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Melee AI, as far as I can tell, uses a very simple system. They check the variables of the current situation and perform a move that would alter the majority of these variables in the CPU's favour.

That is why they jab a lot. Jabs are fast on start-up and end-lag, computers remain mostly grounded (narrowing down there options, as they can't perform aerials) and serve pretty much the same purpose across the whole cast (hence making them less likely to use a move incorrectly because it doesn't work for their character. An example of this is when Jigglypuff attempts to use Sing as a recovery move).

 

[Sephy95]

Melee CPUs only taunt when they get a KO or if you're running away. They're really stupid though and wait too long to taunt after a KO. They are actually pretty easy I guess.

 

[-LzR-]

Well a Mario did it in the middle of everything. As if he was punishing me with it xD.

 

[Sephy95]

The melee CPUs do it all the time. Dont attack and just avoid and see if it doesnt taunt.

 

[SupaSairentoZ7℠]

Been a while since I played Melee, I don't remember the AI there too well. I always had people to play with.

 

[Sephy95]

Been a while since I played Melee, I don't remember the AI there too well. I always had people to play with.

Yeah Ive always had my bro to play with but I train with CPUs mostly.

 

[Omega Tyrant]

It's been a while, but I remember the Melee cpus being worse than Brawl's. They were especially bad at recovering (moreso than they are in Brawl), where they had absolutely no sense of self preservation, and would never make use of alternate recoveries. Edge guarding them was such a simple and easy task :/

 

[SupaSairentoZ7℠]

It's been a while, but I remember the Melee cpus being worse than Brawl's. They were especially bad at recovering (moreso than they are in Brawl), where they had absolutely no sense of self preservation, and would never make use of alternate recoveries. Edge guarding them was such a simple and easy task :/

When I go back home for vacation I'll have to put in Melee and see. Been that long since I played. XD

 

[Sephy95]

Melee cpus really are stupid. They get discouraged quick which is why sometimes they dont make an effort to recover. Thats my theory anyways.

 

[Gatlin]

Haha making a CPU feel discouraged is a pretty good trick . It would explain why they tend to get easier overtime, though.

 

[Sephy95]

Yeah Ive noticed that as well. Their difficulty changes sometimes from like a 9 to a 6, but sometimes their harder than even lvl 9.

 

[SupaSairentoZ7℠]

Yeah Ive noticed that as well. Their difficulty changes sometimes from like a 9 to a 6, but sometimes their harder than even lvl 9.

If I remember right they were tougher the more aggressive you played.

 

[Sephy95]

That explains why they can be really ruthless at some points. It amazes just how brutal they can get. I gotta get more agressive and see what happens. XD

 

[SupaSairentoZ7℠]

That explains why they can be really ruthless at some points. It amazes just how brutal they can get. I gotta get more agressive and see what happens. XD

It like in Brawl but annoying with the adition of the teaming.

 

[Sephy95]

It like in Brawl but annoying with the adition of the teaming.

Believe it or not, I defeated 2 lvl 9s in a team battle by myself. I still have the replay too.

 

[SupaSairentoZ7℠]

Believe it or not, I defeated 2 lvl 9s in a team battle by myself. I still have the replay too.

Hehe, lvl 9 CPU are punching bags and nothing else. If I have a character I just want to beat the crap out of I make use of the lvl 9 CPU through that if I don't feel like going online.XD

 

[Gatlin]

Believe it or not, I defeated 2 lvl 9s in a team battle by myself. I still have the replay too.

I have tried doing that, but I can't quite get it yet unless I am facing two Ganondorfs . Congrats! Though, now onto 3 haha.