Brawl Computers: Q&A (1 Player Directory Included)

[Zatchiel]

Edit: After Much thought, i've decided to make this a Computer Q&A Thread. Have any questions or thoughts on Brawl CPUs? Feel free to discuss them here.

- The Global Rules still apply (http://www.smashboards.com/announcement.php?f=183&a=186).
- Please, read before you post.
- I maintain the decision to request this be closed if i feel it need be or it gets too off topic. This decision isn't limited to my perspective.
- This is not a social. If you're not posting a Question or an Answer, i highly recommend refraining your post.
- All material must suffice to all moderation (of all members) for this to remain open. This is a privilege.

Important Directories:

The Bosses's Annihilation: A Guide To Dodging Each Boss Move http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=250151

General Questions/Advice Thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=235076

Official Brawl Speed Records *Accepting Submissions*: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=144213

Enjoy!

Quotes to remember:

Brawl is coming up on it's third Birthday. There are about 526k minutes in a year. If your average match time was 3 minutes, because you kept getting ***** so quickly, then you would've been playing Brawl for over 30% of your life during this time. Considering we spend about 30% of our lives sleeping, that means you spent half your waking time playing Brawl over the last 3 years.

You're a pro, bro.

 

[Zatchiel]

I guess i'll reserve this for a possible chart.

 

[BSP]

Ok,

Are you going to go into attacks too? I'm sure my CPU falco is only a few matches away from chaingrabbing lol

 

[satowolf]

Yeah you should do one for attacks. I swear...the Luigi CPUs are insane half the time >__>

 

[Zatchiel]

Of course, i'm still testing. I'll have more info up soon.

 

[PK-ow!]

Can you find patterns in what kind of PKT2 shots the A.I. misses?


The A.I. is of course execution perfect when recovering from low, high, and straight horizontally. I've seen all of this.

But every so often Lucas will just fail miserably at going anywhere near the ledge, or sometimes he'll roll on Smashville's side. Ness also seems to still lack sense of things jumping over his head when he PKTs.

I could swear I saw a Yoshi Egg Toss to recover. Just never successfully. They egg toss and miss, then keep doing it, like Puff.

 

[Zatchiel]

Can you find patterns in what kind of PKT2 shots the A.I. misses?

Of course i can. All i need to do is find spare time this weekend, and i'll get to it.

I could swear I saw a Yoshi Egg Toss to recover. Just never successfully. They egg toss and miss, then keep doing it, like Puff.

Videos would be nice. I've never seen a AI Yoshi use their Egg Toss to recover to the stage, so a vid would help a bit
Every time i hit a Yoshi out of their second jump, they just DI toward the stage with no Egg Toss input whatsoever. Unless you meant when they're way below stage level, then i've seen that a few times.

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

How many times did you test this?

 

[Zatchiel]

How many times did you test this?

More than i can count <.<
I play offline with CPUs more than 80% of the time now, you think i wouldn't learn anything by now

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

THere's also the fact that you have nothing backing up your claims.

 

[Zatchiel]

THere's also the fact that you have nothing backing up your claims.

Well then, if you'd feel so much better testing out these instances yourself, by all means, please do. I assure you that i've got most if not every point nailed (That is already displayed of course). You attempting to intrude with no false results is kind of a bad position for yourself.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Well then, if you'd feel so much better testing out these instances yourself, by all means, please do. I assure you that i've got most if not every point nailed (That is already displayed of course). You attempting to intrude with no false results is kind of a bad position for yourself.

He has awesome sample sizes.

Spoiler

Lab joke lmao

THere's also the fact that you have nothing backing up your claims.

Now, this is a very silly way to go around debunking this. As I'm about to explain.

DJ, I'm sorry to say, but your data are, to a varying degree, inaccurate.

On the subject of whether or not Brawl's AI has the ability to learn, this has been a hot debate in the past.

However, the most solid theory is that computers do not learn in the sense that they know what they are doing, and the effectiveness of said action, to the depth that we do. Instead, computers seem to have a "memory store", for lack of a better term, in which they hold strings of actions that they execute at an appropriate time. Which they recieve through human characters playing. This, of course, is dealing with Level 9's.

They record actions you perform after another string of actions. Example:

-Opponent Offstage
--if opponent recovers
---Offensive action string
--if otherwise
---Opponent is Knocked Out
----Squat
-----Yields Positve, Negative, Neutral Result?
----If Positive or Neutral, then
---Loop until
--Opponent Respawns

This is just an example of the kind of actions the game loads and executes when dealing with AI on my game. AI does not crouch taunt normally, as in the original programming, crouching renders no desirable result after a KO.

However, after repeated matches full of crouch taunting after every KO, the games assumes that crouching after a KO is somehow linked to the positive feedback a KO sends. This is not unlike conditioning in animal behaviorilism.

Now, another thing I commonly do after a KO is Self Destruct. However, the game identifies this as a negative result. Consequently, the AI does not store and execute it.

Now, nearing the end, you make it seem like AI's will rarely go offstage to chase an opponent. This evidences that AI's behave differently on different consoles, and as such, even collecting simple recovery behaviors is unreliable. I am a very offensive player, so AI's on my console will attempt to score an offstage KO when possible, depending on what action strings I use for characters.

For example, an MK on my console will immediately go offstage and use Dairs and Fairs, and go far too, whereas a Captain Falcon on my console spaces and times his jumps to sweetspot knees and hit with the meteor hitbox of Dair.

Thus, even recovery behaviors on my console are slightly different.

I might elaborate on this later, idk.

 

[Zatchiel]

I'll get around to more updates when i can find a spot with my Wii. Until said time, this should probably be locked as for read-only until all of this is tested in regulated instances

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Just curious but I've heard replay help the CPU store memory of what good actions are?

 

[John12346]

Mario and some other characters have this tendency to Nair sometimes while they're on the respawn platform.

 

[DunnoBro]

Someone tell me two things.

Why the hell do CPUs do the dumbest sh*t ever right at the beginning of the match.

Ex.

1: As soon as the match starts, Falco jumps right into warlock punch.
2: As soon s the match starts, lucas upbs into me. He doesn't even take a step before doing this.

 

[TYCHO]

what level was the CPU ?

 

[RoboticOwnageBuddy]

i personally have never seen lucas, link, toon, sheik, or samus tether.

 

[Ghostbone]

I'm pretty sure i've seen them tether...
As for ZSS's recovery, she simply double jumps > up-b
never seen her flip kick or side-b to recover

As for edge-guarding...I've never had any character besides MK try to edge-guard me

 

[soif]

Why do falco and fox sometimes UpB straight away from the stage?

 

[Gatlin]

Someone tell me two things.

Why the hell do CPUs do the dumbest sh*t ever right at the beginning of the match.

Ex.

1: As soon as the match starts, Falco jumps right into warlock punch.
2: As soon s the match starts, lucas upbs into me. He doesn't even take a step before doing this.

Hah I notice this as well. Whenever I play on Corneria, every time I get KO'ed, the CPU runs all the way to the right until it hits the edge, then it runs back to attack me. Even if I am already spawned again and attacking it, it will continue to run to the edge before doing anything.

It only happens on that level too.

 

[PZ]

Why do falco and fox sometimes UpB straight away from the stage?

They are acting offensively which this would be very helpful in brawl- considering the effects of their upb. They only go into one direction to attack you if they are lv 9.

Hah I notice this as well. Whenever I play on Corneria, every time I get KO'ed, the CPU runs all the way to the right until it hits the edge, then it runs back to attack me. Even if I am already spawned again and attacking it, it will continue to run to the edge before doing anything.

It only happens on that level too.

Ok the cpu always run for the farthest away from you or a platform. It is not that particuliar stage its just because that stage is big or has good width. If they dont do that they usually will go for taunting depending on the type of the ko.

 

[Anthon1996]

From what I've seen, CPU Foxes, Falcos, and Wolfs will aim away from the stage when you go into their Up Bs.

It also seems that only characters with more than two jumps (like MK) will edgeguard.

 

[PZ]

From what I've seen, CPU Foxes, Falcos, and Wolfs will aim away from the stage when you go into their Up Bs.

It also seems that only characters with more than two jumps (like MK) will edgeguard.

Not sure about the second thing you said but like i said before with the cpus being offensive yea they are aiming for if your that close.

 

[Omega Tyrant]

Cpu characters with multiple midair jumps will attempt off stage edgeguarding much more often than those who only have one midair jump, but one jumpers do it on occasion, usually to attempt to meteor smash you.

 

[Omega Tyrant]

Also, sorry for the double post, but in the OP, it mentions how Sonic only uses Spring. This is incorrect as when you are nearby when they're recovering (whether it's for edgeguarding or simply standing near the ledge), they will use Homing Attack, even if you're below them.

And to add to Mario, they will shoot fireballs when they're recovering from above.

 

[MikeKirby]

You could've used the edit button you know...

As for tether recoveries, you kinda have to teach them to do that or they'll practically never attempt it.

 

[satowolf]

ZSS cpus tethers on Norfair (obv. reasons i suppose) and my Link CPUs clawshots, but they miss the ledge half the time =/

 

[Omega Tyrant]

Whoops, I didn't noticed the edit button ^^; I'll be sure to use it in the future.

Anyway, I noticed that all the cpus in my Brawl will always use their tether recovery if they're in certain spots, with the exception of Lucas, who I have never seen use his tether recovery.

 

[PZ]

Yea cpus basically learn to use tether through u unless of course they are zss, ivy, or oli who have to use tether as a recovery.

 

[Omega Tyrant]

Hmm, on anyone else Brawl, when they choose to fight a random cpu, has it been a Zelda who transforms into Sheik immediately when the match begins? I've seen this happen a few times now.

 

[Zatchiel]

Also, sorry for the double post, but in the OP, it mentions how Sonic only uses Spring. This is incorrect as when you are nearby when they're recovering (whether it's for edgeguarding or simply standing near the ledge), they will use Homing Attack, even if you're below them.

And to add to Mario, they will shoot fireballs when they're recovering from above.

These both aren't technically used for recovery so much as offense. With Sonic's homing attack, i knew that he uses it when he's recovering, but only when there is an opponent to attack within range. If you're nowhere near him, he only utilizes his Spring.

From what I've seen, CPU Foxes, Falcos, and Wolfs will aim away from the stage when you go into their Up Bs.

This statement is true. They direct their Fire Fox/Bird recovery attacks to the side when you're inside of the hitstun of the attack when the attack frames from the initial "charge" dissipate.

It also seems that only characters with more than two jumps (like MK) will edgeguard.

This isn't necessarily true. For Example, DDD doesn't always attempt to edgeguard (if even), due to his heavy weight and fall speed. The computer takes into note the possibility of SD'ing, which is why only computers with five jumps and somewhat light weight will go for edgeguardings, whilst other CPUs will wait directly at the edge and attempt to edgekeep an opponent (or keep them from getting back onstage; directing them to maintain a ledge-bound state of movement).

 

[Omega Tyrant]

These both aren't technically used for recovery so much as offense. With Sonic's homing attack, i knew that he uses it when he's recovering, but only when there is an opponent to attack within range. If you're nowhere near him, he only utilizes his Spring.

With Homing Attack, it's arguable if the Sonic is using it to recover, to fend off an edgeguarder, or both, since it's only works when an opponent is in range, and I believe the cpu would be programmed to know this. As such, when the opponent is in range, I think they're programmed to use it to recover as they know it extends their recovery past what the Spring alone will provide. If they're not in range, the cpu knows not to use it (as it would lead to hindering their recovery) and instead uses just Spring. But of course, all we can do is speculate on what the Sonic is using it for.

Regardless, your information in the beginning is supposed to be about the behavior of the cpu when recovering (or if you don't intend for it that way, I believe the information would be more informative if it was), which covers not only their recovery methods, but how they react to edgeguarding, etc. As such, whether a cpu is using a move for "offense" or for "recovering", if they perform a certain action commonly when recovering, it should be mentioned. Plus, you mention Kirby doing the midair jump > fair routine, and I'm pretty sure the Kirby is programmed to use that for "offense" to fend off an edgeguarder as the attack itself provides no recovery benefit.

 

[Zatchiel]

With Homing Attack, it's arguable if the Sonic is using it to recover, to fend off an edgeguarder, or both, since it's only works when an opponent is in range, and I believe the cpu would be programmed to know this. As such, when the opponent is in range, I think they're programmed to use it to recover as they know it extends their recovery past what the Spring alone will provide. If they're not in range, the cpu knows not to use it (as it would lead to hindering their recovery) and instead uses just Spring. But of course, all we can do is speculate on what the Sonic is using it for.

Regardless, your information in the beginning is supposed to be about the behavior of the cpu when recovering (or if you don't intend for it that way, I believe the information would be more informative if it was), which covers not only their recovery methods, but how they react to edgeguarding, etc. As such, whether a cpu is using a move for "offense" or for "recovering", if they perform a certain action commonly when recovering, it should be mentioned. Plus, you mention Kirby doing the midair jump > fair routine, and I'm pretty sure the Kirby is programmed to use that for "offense" to fend off an edgeguarder as the attack itself provides no recovery benefit.

Thoughtful suggestion on the behalf of your notice, but my read clearly states the focus of recovering CPUs, not CPU ledgegaurd and defensive tactics. Kirby's Fair stalling isn't really a defensive tactic so much as just Kirby attempting to conserve time required to recover. Which is why it won't attempt to Uair an opponent over it when the opponent is attempting a Meteor Spike or an attack from above. Nonetheless, i see your point and i'll take your topic into consideration when i'm adding to the OP.

As to everyone else, this should receive an update when i can finish testing the CPUs (Mid-December).

 

[Omega Tyrant]

Alright then, I'm glad we can come to an understanding.

As for other recovery behavior, while in Final Destination, Captain Falcon will commonly use Falcon Dive underneath the lip, and while it would look like he just caused himself to SD (as getting trapped underneath the lip spells doom for almost every character using their recovery move in such a spot), he pull backs and just grabs the ledge. When he is doing this, a simple edgehog will cause him to SD (as the grab hitboxes do not reach the hanging player when the Falcon is doing this). One thing I noticed about this rather odd recovery behavior is that it seem to happen much more often when I first got Brawl (where this would almost always catch me off guard) than it does now. I don't quite remember the last I saw a cpu Falcon do this.

 

[louischris23]

Block to gain a small pop of Vertical, before proceeding to the player, which bares no hit box, allowing this to be edge-hogged safely and effectively. This game will be played by the single player or multiple player also. this is also an easy game to play that how the game will be play it can understand easily.

 

[Skadorski]

I haven't really ever intentionally played a CPU ZSS, but if you have Items on or something, i'd say she normally goes for the Plasma Whip, then Plasma Wire, to recover. If that doesn't work, i think she'd attempt to use Flip Jump to gain a bit more Horizontal ground. But this will go under further testing soon.

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but you can play ZSS without items on by going to Tourney Mode and moving the c-stick on Samus under the character selection thing for CPUs. You can also do it on the Wiimote by pressing the - button.

 

[Omega Tyrant]

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but you can play ZSS without items on by going to Tourney Mode and moving the c-stick on Samus under the character selection thing for CPUs. You can also do it on the Wiimote by pressing the - button.

A cpu Zamus can be fought in a normal Brawl without items or using tourney mode. For the port the cpu Samus is using, just press and hold the appropriate button on that controller when you go to stage select. Such as, if cpu Samus is in the second port, and you have a GCN controller hooked up there, press and hold R on that controller as you go to stage select, and if done correctly, you'll fight a cpu Zamus without any Smash Balls.

From the limited times I have fought a cpu Zamus though, they seem to have one of the worst AIs in the game (though I don't remember any specifics about them atm other than them being pretty bad in comparison to the other characters' AI).

 

[-LzR-]

Reading some of the posts here, I gotta tell you something awesome...

Protip: The AI doesn't learn. Get over it.

 

[PZ]

Reading some of the posts here, I gotta tell you something awesome...

Protip: The AI doesn't learn. Get over it.

Hey heres a protip: Why didnt u post this when the thread came out? lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4HvhIPOz4I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFUVdXuIcU4&feature=related