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Brawl Character Match-Up chart

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Corner-Trap

Smash Ace
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I would say Marth has slight advantage on IC's.

He has an easy time splitting them up and then going after Nana.
Yeah I remember your Marth match-ups listing a 6/4 advantage against the IC's. I could see how that is possible, and would be willing to change that. It might just be me but I play against so many freakin Marth players a day that the match-up isn't even hard to me.

Corner-Trap, if you could give me your AIM here or PM it I would appreciate.

I know you are good player and need experience vs good ones in order to get where I want to be. I also disagree strongly with your judgement of ICs vs Ike. I would give that a 5/5 or maybe a 6/4 for ICs.

But yea, gimmie your AIM so we can play once ur Wifi is set up.

I am VersatileRTC.
My AIM is BboyTrap91
 

Earthbound360

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Wow, there are some MAJOR flaws in the Ness section. Ness does WELL against Squirtle and Sonic.

Sonic has nothing on Ness. All his aerials outprioritize Sonic's and they can even outpriotritize his specials. PK Fire kills his speedy approaches.

Same goes for squirtle pretty much. Aerials outprioritize a lot of what Squirtle has and PK Fire burns squirtles speed to pieces including withdrawl.
 

Steeler

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Ivysaur is SUPER EFFECTIVE against Lucas. Razor Leaf is actually faster than PK Fire. Ivysaur outranges Lucas with almost everything, unless he's using his little stick, in which case it's still only maybe even.

Either way, neither character can effectively camp as they cancel each other out, although Leaves will eventually get to Lucas if all they do is PK/Leaf.

So therefore, it really depends on the ground and air game. Ground wise, Ivysaur has good range with his jabs and fsmash, and dtilt is pretty quick and can poke at Lucas.

Bair is MARVELOUS. Lucas lacks anything like it when it comes to spacing. Short hop those bairs and lucas will become frustrated and can't effectively approach you. It also serves well as you approach yourself. Fair is a good kill move and has good range too. Nair to bullet seed is okay, but lucas is pretty small and mobile. you'll get maybe 20% max out of the seeds. which is still pretty good.

I think Fsmash is your primary kill move. Outranges lucas's fsmash. Ivy's lunge is very quick, you just have to be sure that you are out of range of lucas's melee attacks and you are good. Fsmash as he approaches? or toss a leaf first as he comes and quickly fsmash right after.

I think both grabs have similar range, but perhaps Ivy's is a tad quicker. Not too sure on this one.

the chart has lucas as the advantage. if anything ivy is the favorite here, but i could see a neutral. but neither can camp, and ivy's range dominates lucas up close.
 

ChokE

Smash Apprentice
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a rob can totally destroy a pit with d smash, f-tilts, projectiles, and his defensive air moves. What can a pit really do against him. arrow spam so he recharge his lasar, get down smashed when close, get bair or nair in the face with going to air?
 

Almo

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Messages
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marth has such an advantage on wolf.

due to the fact that i played space animals in melee for the majority of the time, and merging to brawl, the space animals are just as easy to play, i think when you do one match-up enough, you learn alot more about it, as corner-trap stated above with the IC and Marth. Marth's edge guarding game seems to rely somewhat/mostly on chasing them off the edge and fairing, and his fair will outprioritize thier up-b's. similarly, wolf's up-b is just incredibly easy to read, his blaster lacks speed and anyone will just shield it or jump. wolf falls victim to alot of marth's good options, and i see him as vastly overrated. if you can space, then you can abuse wolf's foward smash, as he's just putting himself in marth's sword range. To date, I haven't been beaten by a wolf (in a best of 3, everyone loses sometimes), and I'm not even that great. It could be the people I'm playing, but until i see a wolf dominate, i don't see what the fuss of wolf being so good is all about and will see the matchup as Marth>Wolf.

Someone prove me wrong. I'm not calling you out, i want to be informed, and was wondering why the Marth and Wolf Match-Up was a "?"


EDIT: I also noticed the Marth and Lucas Match-up was "disputed." For the most part, it's even. Marth has a slight advantage but not enough that it can turn every game into a 2 stock. I've put most of my marth play time into this matchup.
 

Corner-Trap

Smash Ace
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I altered the IC's match-ups, and the OP needs to look at the posts. Those IC match-ups on that chart are just wrong.

Bowser- Good 7/3
Captain Falcon- Fair 6/4
Charizard- Fair 6/4
Diddy Kong- Fair 5/5
Donkey Kong- Good 7/3
Falco- Fair 5/5
Fox- Fair 6/4
Game & Watch- Fair 4/6
Ganondorf- Good 7/3
Ice Climbers- Fair 5/5
Ike- Fair 6/4
Ivysaur- Good 7/3
Jigglypuff- Fair 6/4
King Dedede- Fair 6/4
Kirby- Fair 6/4
Link- Fair 6/4
Lucario- Fair 5/5
Lucas- Fair 5/5
Luigi- Fair 5/5
Mario- Good 7/3
Marth- Fair 4/6
Meta Knight- Bad 3/7
Ness- Fair 6/4
Peach- Fair 6/4
Pikachu- Bad 3/7
Pikman & Olimar- Fair 6/4
Pit- Fair 4/6
R.O.B.- Fair 5/5
Samus- Fair 6/4
Sheik- Fair 6/4
Snake- Fair 4/6
Sonic- Fair 6/4
Squirtle- Fair 6/4
Toon Link- Fair 5/5
Wario- Fair 6/4
Wolf- Fair 5/5
Yoshi- Good 7/3
Zelda- Fair 5/5
Zero Suit Samus- Fair 4/6
 

UltraKyu

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Oh cmon - Computers don't use AT's and can't adapt their playstyle when playing different enemys, so what you get is maybe who has prioirity against which character but thats nonsense IMO.

Sry if I'm wrong but I don't think that this chart says something important about the different MU's.

cya
 

N.A.G.A.C.E

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sorry if this has already been asked but are you ever going to change this to the number system 6/4, 7/3 etc this chart is nice (debatable but nice ty for making it) and i understand if there is not enough info to do the number system yet but it is more useful to be able to see just how much one character out powers another so just wondering if you will ever make this chart with the number system
 

Emblem Lord

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Marth is 6/4 on Lucas. Slight advantage mostly due to range and edgeguarding.

I can see why Marth would have slight advantage over Wolf. Even if Marth doesn't outright kill Wolf he can easily gimp him. And If Marth spaces really well , then Wolf has a hard time.

In my Marth match-up thread I have it as even, but I may change it in the future.

I feel 5/5 is good now though.
 

HiddenBowser

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jiggs is way wrong, I don't really feel like going into detail about it, but just know, jiggs is way wrong.
 

Timcanpy

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from what point of view, diddy king have disvantage vs pkmn trainer (charizard) and pkmn trainer(squirtle) ??, thats really wrong, to not say more
 

AlphaDragoon2002

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I completely disagree with the Sonic chart.
Sonic> Mario*
Sonic = Luigi*
Sonic = Pikachu
Sonic = Jigglypuff
Sonic> Captain Falcon*
Sonic> Ganonodorf*
Sonic>Yoshi
Sonic= Pit*
Sonic<Metaknight
Sonic>Ike*
Sonic<Marth*
Sonic<Falco
Sonic<Wolf
Sonic=Fox
Sonic?Rob
Sonic<Olimar*
Sonic<Lucario
Sonic>Bowser*
Sonic>DK*
Sonic=Dedede
Sonic<Diddy Kong
Sonic=Kirby
Sonic>Samus*
Sonic?Zamus
Sonic>Ice Climbers* (Can easily kill Nana)
Sonic?Snake*
Sonic?Peach
Sonic<Zelda
Sonic>Squirtle
Sonic?Charizard
Sonic=Ivysaur*
Sonic>Link*
Sonic<Toon Link
Sonic?Mr. Game & Watch
Sonic>Ness*
Sonic=Lucas*
Sonic=Wario
* Characters Sonic can easily gimp
lolwut :laugh:

This list has some glaring problems, mainly that Sonic has advantage on like, 3-5 characters in the whole game, if that.

Ike flat out DESTROYS Sonic, as do Lucas and DK. Pit murders Sonic, De3 murders Sonic, the list just goes on and on.

Seriously. Sonic's not that good. His attacks have such low priority it's like the other guy is trading blows with a piece of tissue. Little to no KO power in 90% of his moves. Light and easy to KO. Really the only things Sonic has going for him are his high speed and awesome recovery.
 

Emblem Lord

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Seriously.

If you are going to argue that a bad character beats good ones you better have a good argument.

Otherwise don't even begin to try to say Sonic can handle Snake of all people.
 

IvanEva

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I won't be able to update the chart for another three or so days (massive projects coming around the corner) but when I do it'll be a big revision as I'll be going through as much as humanly possible. I'll see if I can devote an entire day to it. Nevertheless, keep posting here as I'll be going through everything.

Yes, the chart does seem to have its fair share of questionable match-ups. The intention is that this is a 'community chart", within reasonable limits. The downside to that approach is, naturally, that disputes will arise. With the chart starting to fill up, (and many thanks to everybody who has contributed thus far), disputes are popping up all over the place (which isn't bad - 'disputed' is usually better than leaving it as something that people are disagreeing with) but at the same time some are, at least to me, coming to an end. I used to think that Lucas > Marth but I can see that it's definitely the other way around now. Same with a couple of others. This weekend has been a massive Brawl-playing fest for me which was something that I really needed, especially for the chart.

To N.A.G.A.C.E: Most likely. Not until it's out of 'Beta' though (i.e. filled up and next to no match-ups are disputed).

To Emblem Lord: Although sometimes a bit blunt in your counters, your match-up arguments thus far have always been the most persuasive and they're always backed up very intelligently. I hope you keep on posting.

To Almo: Anything marked with a 'disputed' tag means that I've come across two differing opinions on how that match-up goes. Eventually they'll all be settled but for now I'm just labeling them as 'disputed'.
 

omegablackmage

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lol at pit beating gaw, thats funny. Basically dtilt, fair, and bair all outrange all of pits attacks im pretty sure, and he can bucket camping attempts from arrows. He can dtilt double jump attempts to reach the edge because the dtilt hitbox reaches further than pits magnetism, so pit basically gets f'd on recovery. i dunno what else there needs to be for this matchup to be gaw countering pit.
 

GetSmashedWithTheBros

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i like the idea, but could you explain how you performed the matchups? what was the number of trials you did per character vs character? and what level did you use? was it random? or was it simply on FD? and were these level 9 computers?

also, i'd like to point out that Marth has no "disadvantage" marks, when Pit is a very good marth counter, but really when played by a human, not a CPU.
 

ShadowLink84

Smash Hero
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Middle of nowhere. Myrtle Beach
Sonic just fails so hard over wi-fi. You're no longer able to react to the opponent's attacks so you don't get to use that amazing speed for punishment.

Playing him online really won't give you any sort of grasp on the matchup, except maybe killing percentages or something.

As for the actual debate, I kinda want to agree with Emblem Lord. Sonic has almost no problem getting in close, but the issue is that once he's close he really hasn't done anything. Snake has a much better ground game than Sonic, and even Sonic's airgame is out classed. What Sonic has going for him is that his speed makes him harder to predict, but that's not going to be enough to win the match.

Sonic will always have to make the approach, so Snake's approaching issues don't really matter in this matchup. If Sonic ever decides that he's going to wait and try to react to what Snake is doing, Snake will just use the opporunity to pull out grenades and set traps, making it harder for Sonic to approach latter. Snake gets to take advantage of brawl's defensive system, giving him a substantial advantage overall. Snake can go aggro, but unlike Sonic he isn't forced to, so Snake gets to pick when to play aggressive and when to fall back to brawls amazing defense system.

Advantage, Snake.

True wifi does screw up the timing which has ruined many of my oppurtunities to gimp.
I don't believe that Snake out does Sonic aerially. Many of snake's aerial moves other than his Bair and Uair leave him vulnerable and are very easily punished.
yes snake does have a better ground game, but I also find that once Sonic manages to expose an opening, it can be difficult for Snake to break away safely.
Yes snake can make use of the defensive game but I think since Sonic has many different ways of approaching it won't be toog reat an issue. Often when it comes to approaching characters like Snake, the main issue is not only because the lack of speed to approach but also the predictability to approach.

If Ike tries to approach Snake its that much more difficult not only because of his speed, but because the overall strategy available to him in such a position makes it difficult. He becomes predictable and it wouldn't take too much of a mindgame to take on an Ike with Snake.

With sonic I find it much more easy to approach Snake because I have several ways of doing so both ground and air. Granted if I try facing Snake on ground its going to be more difficult but I wouldn't be trying to take him o headon to begin with since overall Sonic is going to get killed. I would aim more for a pressure game that is more safe and less predictable by taking advantage of Sonic's mindgames. I could dash dance and force Snake into a position where I could punish him and chase him off the stage. Not to necessarily KO him, but to make it more difficult for him to restablish himself.

Now I am not saying that Sonic has a great match up with Snake, like Luigi its one of his more difficult ones.
I don't believe it to be true though to say that Snake completely overpowers Sonic, simply because Sonic's game of pressure and chasing tends to give slower/heavier characters more of an issue, especially if they are trying to recover from off the stage, something that Snake becomes limited in.
Snake does have an advantage over Sonic but it isn't as great if Sonic were to face Luigi or Olimar, who not only overpower him up close, but in the air as well. I don't see as to how snake's air game overpower's Sonic, considering that if Sonic simply spaces properly he can punish Snake and Sonic tends to space more easily than the general roster.
 

Eltrotraw

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also, i'd like to point out that Marth has no "disadvantage" marks, when Pit is a very good marth counter, but really when played by a human, not a CPU.
this was already explained several times before. Marth counters Pit. Pit's only advantages over Marth are arrows and recovery, both of which aren't very difficult to deal with. If you think Pit's up+B is the best in the game, you haven't been getting edgeguarded by a competent player.

Marth's range is longer in close quarters and he has more reliable kill moves than Pit does. Plus, tipper.
 

Browny

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meh i was gonna write a long explanation but ill leave it simple.

sonic only seems cr@p over wifi coz of lag, as someone above said. not only when it comes to gimping recoveries. normally my games are fine, and i dont have any real problems. today i had a game with the slightest bit of lag and i found myself missing at least 75% of all my running grabs, which are a BIG part of sonics game since he does have the best running grab range. also imperative in anti camping strategies since a running grab is faster than dededes waddle dee toss, snakes nikita + grenades and pretty much all of ikes attacks which are normally extremely easy to punish.
 

N.A.G.A.C.E

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yea thats what i thought thanks for the answer

i might be going to a tournament next week my first one for brawl and now that i co-main diddy and zelda i saw that wolf at this moment on your chart is the only one who has the advantage on both of them, and i was just wondering who is better in your (or any one else who might know the answer) mind against wolf. Sorry if this is a little off topic but this thread seems like a good place to ask this question and i will try to have any future posts be more helpful to this thread.
 

MdrnDayMercutio

Smash Champion
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As much as I hate admitting it, I have to agree with ShadowLink's earlier opinion that Sonic and Link is an even match up.

Link's sword gives him alot of range and power. But his recovery is very easily gimped. And the projectile's are pretty much dead even with Sonic's approach game.

I'm a Sonic Main and my friend is a Link main. We're just about dead even in skill(slight edge to him) and our matches ALWAYS play out with him barely getting a victory over me.

Granted(assuming you're updating the first page image) it seems the boards have decided to give Sonic the advantage I really really do feel it's a equal match up.
 

A2ZOMG

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Bowser isn't disadvantaged against everyone. Especially not Captain Falcon. Captain Falcon is disadvantaged against everyone.
 

ComradeSAL

Smash Journeyman
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Zelda owns rob.. if you don't believe me go ask the rob forum :p
I hadn't played enough Zelda with my ROB to know this for sure, but every time someone's played Zelda against me, I've gotten *****. Also, Overswarm said the matchup was horrible, so I think for now it's safe to put an X there.
 

ComradeSAL

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Everyone should remember that having a slight disadvantage against the entire field doesn't necessarily mean the character is unplayable.
 

Almo

Smash Ace
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To Almo: Anything marked with a 'disputed' tag means that I've come across two differing opinions on how that match-up goes. Eventually they'll all be settled but for now I'm just labeling them as 'disputed'.
Seems fair enough. I was simply giving my opinion to help furthur the decision for that one. Trying to change the matchup to a check or an X? yes. Bias? perhaps.

But i assume until we either see some high level play, or one character dominate the other consistently, it will continue to be disputed.

Emblemlord, you shortened my wall of text in about 4 sentences about lucas and wolf. win.
 

Smashbros_7

Smash Ace
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Why does Mario Match more character than Luigi? luigi overshadows Mario in ALL air moves that are identical (uair,bair,nair)

His Fsmash is much better
Better recovery
The list goes on!

PS: Wario isn`t terrible against fox. His jumps are amazing.
 

hario.hige

Smash Cadet
Joined
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The contradictions between this matchup chart and the Japanese tier list is quite interesting. Either the Japanese don't give Marth enough credit or he's being overrated here. Snake and ROB aren't being given any love here while dominating overseas.

Fun.
 

IvanEva

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People are saying this, and I agree, "too many bad match-ups"
But what nobody's saying is which ones should change for Bowser.
I totally agree! (well, on the posting part)

I've recently picked up Bowser and I swear he has an advantage against Captain Falcon, Ganondorf, Donkey Kong and Jigglypuff. The biggest reason behind it being his Fire Breath's ability to keep the former three at bay when needed.

Captain Falcon's aerials have trouble getting past Bowser's tilts or, worse yet, Bowser's forward air (when Bowser is chasing him off the ledge). Add that to Bowser's Fire Breath and the poor Captain has a difficult time approaching Bowser. In Falcon's favor, however, is his forward-B's anti-Bowser spiking capabilites. If Bowser's an idiot he'll be spiked at each edgeguarding attempt. However, Captain Falcon's forward-B can only be done when he's close enough to the ledge - and many of Bowser's best attacks send Falcon flying at a low enough angle that he can't just throw his forward-B out - and even then Bowser's forward air beats Captain Falcon's forward-B. Bowser is a big target for knees but with a very protective forward air and better spacing abilities, Captain Falcon is hard pressed to land one.

Ganondorf isn't quite as easy - his forward-B is great against the shield-loving Bowser. Unfortunately for Ganondorf, his approaches are also quite limited. Fire Breath (relatively safely) shuts down Ganondorf's ground game (although when he's close he'll hit Bowser will a jab or a tilt and it'll hurt) and since Ganondorf's aerials are so slow, a Bowser should be able to powershield, dodge, roll, whatever to avoid damage. In Ganondorf's favor comes his powerful down air and it's almost guaranteed KOs against a low recovering Bowser. In this case, Bowser is better off recovering as high as he can - Bowser's up-B should be fast enough to stop Ganondorf's other aerials from coming out. The key is to keep burning the very slow walking Ganondorf and tilting him away when he gets too close.

Against Donkey Kong I find that they're almost even but that Bowser has a slight advantage due to, again, his Fire Breath. Whether it's Bowser hitting Donkey or Donkey hitting Bowser, either way basically puts them in a position where Bowser can use his Fire to painfully push Donkey Kong back or force him into the air. After a while the damage starts to accumulate which leads to Donkey being edgeguarded by... more Fire! Giant Super Amour Punch is very scary to Bowser though and making one small mistake will always lead to getting Bowser's brains punched in. As well, Donkey Kong's down-B comes out slightly faster than the Fire (or at least it appears to) and can knock Bowser in exchange for only about 1% of Fire damage.

Against Jigglypuff, who can combo Bowser into oblivion, it becomes a matter of not letting her get close enough to initiate the 'wall of pain'. The key there is forward air (NOT fire since Jigglypuff happily flies over it and hits you). She's also susceptible to the strong back air (always done way above the ground - it's good for stopping Jigglypuff from getting back on to the stage). An upward angled forward tilt and an up tilt are also great anti-Jigglypuff techniques. Overall I find that Jigglypuff has a much harder time getting in to Bowser than he has keeping her away.

... Of course, I'm still quite new with Bowser and it could be that I'm winning my battles on novelty alone (probably not since projectile characters absolutely destroy him - Wolf's blaster should be banned in tournaments against Bowser!). I don't feel that I'm good enough yet to have my Bowser opinions count towards the chart so I'll see what people think about those four possible advantages. The Jigglypuff one especially seems a bit iffy since Bowser suffers from the 'wall of pain' more than anybody else that I've seen, and her ability to weave in and out make it a bit mindgame battle.

By the way, my apologies again but it won't be until this Saturday when I can get back to working on the chart. My goal is to be able to fill up the entire chart in that day (hopefully to most people's satisfaction). Can you post a link concerning the Japanese tier list stuff? That'd probably help out.
 

ROOOOY!

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Yes Ivan, it's more productive than complaining about Brawl mechanics, isn't it?
*Stares at half of Smashboards*
At least this is giving a rough idea of how everyone fares, even though it's only in it's 'alpha' stage.
Keep this up though, because I think this will end up an interesting thread. I can see there being a lot of 'disputed' slots though later on, as times and opinions will change.
 

gamadaya

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I see that Marth has the best record so far. How is he at such an advantage over all the characters with ranged attacks? Would you really put him at an advantage against Olimer? He seems to give me the most trouble.
 
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