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Brawl by the Numbers: Roster Size

Johnknight1

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Praying for 40 or more.

Expecting about 37/38 realistically.

Will be pissed if it turns out to be any less than 31/32.

-Dyce
Nintendo hasn't ceased to impress, with the series. In SSB Melee we expected 20 characters, or maybe a little more. In SSB Brawl the team is bigger, there are two companies [HAL and the unnamed developer] working together to create the game. Plus add in APE, Game Freak [now not focusing on a Pokémon Game], and all of Nintendo backing wat was their sleeper hit on the GCN's sequal, I expect no less than 40. Call me a dictator, but they can do better than that. The Pokémon Trainer proves they got lots of time, and we've seen a lot of double updates as of late=once a week the last few weeks or so.

Overall it's unacceptable to have less than 38 characters IMO, since the team and support is so huge. This is Nintendo's make or break game, in ways Mario Galaxy never will be. Anything less will be a huge mistake on their part for pushing Sakurai. Plus we got Sakurai, Miyamoto, Anouma, Kojima, etc. etc. etc. Plus Sakurai was upset with Reggie jumped "on Brawl will be out in 2007 hopefully", and now he remains happy, and really hasn't show himself to the public. Sakurai went from angered, to wat I'm guessing is satified.

If anything, they have 37 or so characters made now, and are working on the last originals and clones. Clones can make the roster jump from 38 or 39 to 43-45, like the 20 or 21 [guessed] from Melee became 26, thanks to 6 clones. In the end, Sakurai will be forced to make clones to represent all the other characters who were clones in Melee, popular, not too clooney, and good. ie: not Doc, not Pichu...and I'm guessing either Shiek or Roy are gone. Hopefully I'm wrong though].

So if Sakurai adds 6 clones again, we could see abou 43 or 44 characters. If he adds more, then that number goes up. Hopefully the time that would have taken to make original characters goes into tier balance, stages, the story mode, and HOPEFULLY online play. Clones can make the game roster a bit above common expectations, or bring it to whole new levels as it's predicesors did. The gameplay is looking clean. The graphics look clean. The levels look clean. Now for a diverse roster, with tons of choices. So many, that your head will spin at choosing a main. That will be the worst thing about the game if this is the chase. Choosing a main would be torture, they way we like it! XD
 

shadenexus18

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35 characters or less on Brawl will be just simply pathetic, pitful, and unexceptable!! I meanthrow us a freakin bone here! I mean really now, how much time has Sakurai and his development team had to tinker with this game! $hit loads of time to get it done right!! Dammit!
 
D

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Man, I hope we get around 40. That would be awesome.

But bear in mind that we'e also getting at least two updates per character for their B moves, and haven't had aerials yet! But we're getting two updates sometimes, so maybe its not all gloom and doom...
 

nuro

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This is just number crunching and it should be left at that. This does not take into consideration what Sakurai's final plan may be. Sakurai, as a game creator, tries to fit in enough time to be able to set his number of goals.

I think that Sakurai would first work on the characters themselves next work on things like SE since it is easier to create a world around characters rather than a character around a world. He probably has his final plans already set for him. But there is a time of polishing for the game. i am sure that making clones such as ganondorf at the end wouldnt cause any major problems with glitching the game. This also means that Sakurai already would have made characters like Sonic already before getting the license.

It also depends on how much time Sakurai spends on creating things such as stickers, items, stages, etc. There is really no way of figuring out the exact time it will take to accomplish certain goals because most creators find themselves working on something that is harder to program than they originally thought.

Besides Sakurai has a new standard to set here. He has had more time to work on this than any other ssb game. And we show him our demands which he must take into consideration. There are certain franchises in ssbm that are dying for another character to appear on the roster. There also needs to be some characters from new franchises. And finally there needs to be some third parties. Thats is a lot of characters to be working on.

Finally let me say this. You looked at Brawl's character select screen image to find out it would be around roughly 32-36 didn't you? let me just say that the icons can always be scaled down etc. I am sure Sakurai would make sure that it is impossible to guess the number of characters from what he did to that picture.
 

VA

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I would've thought that nintendo would claim that there is 25 characters in Melee.

There is something to do with even or round numbers with characters I think. 12 for SSB, which is even and 25 for SSBM which is round (lol this hardly makes sense but am gona roll with it). So, for Brawl I'd expect a likely amount of characters to be either 35 or 40 as the official nintendo claim. 35 characters would be good, as if officially claimed to be 35 WHOLE characters, that would leave room for the extra playables i.e Zamus, Sheik, Squirtle etc.

So basically, we have 16 characters (if we don't count zamus as separate) confirmed atm. Leaving space for the four originals (falcon, ness, luigi and jiggs) to return making 20. I'd say falco's moveset doesn't need that much tweaking, he was fine the way he was, no? Ganon needs total rework, and Marth should almost definately be in (due to huge popularity). This leaves us at 23. We know that Snake and Meta Knight will be in so that takes the count to 25. Leaving space for 10 more new characters. Personally I think this makes the most sense. I may well have just repeated what scav said in the first post but in a different way...but...hey...just wanted to post my ideas :)
 

Homelessvagrant

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I think some of you guys aren't considering the juggernaut that is story mode and all the extras as yet untold. We don't know exactly any info on about anything besides the bite size bits we have now. So any assumption at the most would be a mere guess.

30 or 55 as long as the game is good and the tiers are even I don't care. Sakurai owes us nothing.
 

VA

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This is a thread about speculation and guesswork. We are working with what we have so we feel as if we may have some idea as to what may be the number of characters in the game. If I had never read the boards I may have thought there would be say 50 characters, from boards the blog it has been deduced that there will be less than 40. I'd bet good money that there will be less than 40.
 

Ravenkikas

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quantity aint quality, i dont mind have 35 chars if all of them are balanced.. i dont want to have 40 for ex. and only some of them are elite characters.. that would suck!
 

neoREgen

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I don't think the fact that the size of the team working on Smash Bros. Brawl has grown tremendously was taken into account.
It's less a matter of what previous rates have been and more a matter of the amount of resources - work and time - that they have.

Also, rather than considering the roster's growth in percentages, you may do better just by simply taking into account how many characters were added, then adding that again. After all, the characters are being added, they aren't multiplying with eachother.

26 (SSBM roster size) - 12 (SSB roster size) = 14 (amount of characters added).
26 (current characters) + 14 (amount that could be added) = 40 (SSBB potential roster size).

40 is what they could have accomplished with the same team they had for Melee (although including clones). I'd say there is definitely a chance we could see more in this game, but I'd keep the conservative estimate at 40.
 

blayde_axel

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It seems that Sora is putting more concentration of their time into Single Player more than anything... then again, we are getting a lot of new things... characters, on the other hand, I think are gonna be set aside for more Pokemon, Stages, tons of Assist Trophies, things like that.

I still say 50 would be great... 40 or 45 would do as well. But as long as the characters shock the crap out of me, I'll be fine.

BTW, going from 64 and Melee, there are gonna be less unlocked chars than starters... so .. Let's say we go by all of the chars that have been confirmed so far... which is about 20. From, that, we better not expect more than 40.
 

X-x-Dyce-x-X

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40 is what they could have accomplished with the same team they had for Melee (although including clones). I'd say there is definitely a chance we could see more in this game, but I'd keep the conservative estimate at 40.
Don't forget, Sakurai had said he and his team were taking all the characters from Melee and restarting them from scratch. Now that does mean there were guidelines so they knew where they were to end up and didn't have to plan that much, but the programming and balancing of each individual character vs eac individual character would take some time.

14 more characters would seem reasonable, but I'm expecting just a wee bit less than that. Maybe 10 or 11? 12 at best? Also, you need to take into account that they're avoiding the idea of clones so each new character will have to be started from scratch. The 6 clones that were put in the game were made relatively quickly and squeezed in at the end to please everyone and save memory at the same time. If Sakurai hadn't made clones then our roster Melee roster would be relatively smaller.

14 is nice, but don't get your (and my) hopes up.
 

cena_wolf

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Ah, I don't care. As long as I get the characters I want, I'll be fine. But I do agree with quality over quantity. I don't think 50 characters with only a certain few being the meta would be worse than 35-ish with all of them being compatible with any meta. Makes for a better playing experience, really.
 

Meta Kirby

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The character I'm really waiting for is Meta Knight. My favorite Melee characters are 1) Kirby 2) Pikachu and 3) Fox. All three of these characters are either fast or small. They also all have advanced returning capabilities, Kirby's multi-jump, Pikachu's multi-directional/ 2 staged up special, and Fox's aimable up special. Pit and Meta Knight are probably going to join them with Meta Knight up top and Pit right below Kirby.
 

blayde_axel

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I wouldn't think that Sora would have 50 broken characters... but I do understand what you're saying. Of course, we'd rather have few characters that are well-balanced other than 50 pichus.
 

Johnknight1

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Don't forget, Sakurai had said he and his team were taking all the characters from Melee and restarting them from scratch. Now that does mean there were guidelines so they knew where they were to end up and didn't have to plan that much, but the programming and balancing of each individual character vs eac individual character would take some time.

14 more characters would seem reasonable, but I'm expecting just a wee bit less than that. Maybe 10 or 11? 12 at best? Also, you need to take into account that they're avoiding the idea of clones so each new character will have to be started from scratch. The 6 clones that were put in the game were made relatively quickly and squeezed in at the end to please everyone and save memory at the same time. If Sakurai hadn't made clones then our roster Melee roster would be relatively smaller.

14 is nice, but don't get your (and my) hopes up.
But here's the deal, redoing movests is easier. You just gotta do tier balance, and remake them. The character models redo them. Newer characters take much longer. Characters like the Pokémon characters, Kirby, and a few others take less time to program, since they aren't as graphically upgradable as let's say Link or Mario are. Also, G&W is 2D, easy to make, and would take like 1/100th the time=only create easy to make moves, and the tier balance is the most hastle.

Put into terms, you people are expecting TOO LOW with anything below 35. Seriously, that number would be pitiful, and Nintendo should be ashamed if that happened, since it's their biggest title, on their newest system, and they have their best people at work. It would prove they worked too much on story mode, and lost focus of wat really matters. TONS OF FIGHTERS, styles, and worlds colliding into high-paced gameplay, that players of all skill levels can enjoy. The big favorites need to be there, and there need to be some cool classics as well.

In otherwords, if story mode, ATs, final smashes, items, etc. get in the way of having a 35+ character roster, Brawl obviously had much time wasted into production. It's all about the multiplayer, straight down to it. The characters and the stages are the main focus, and I've reached the conclusion they're already done with most of it, and are adding clones.

Simply put if Nintendo can't make their roster AT LEAST 10 characters bigger on a 3 times of big disc, and system with actual hardware, and real gameplay would be pitiful. Seriously, ALL of HAL is working on it, the secret developer is working on it, APE is working on it, Game Freak is working on it, Miyamoto is working on it, Kojima is working on it, and Cero is probably working on it. Heck, with MP3 out of the way, SM Galaxy and Brawl are the main focuses. And if they can't deliver with their biggest hit, they will fail this gen with the dedicated gamers, badly.

We might enjoy SM Sunshine, MP3, Super Paper Mario, but when it comes down to it, nothing beats multiplayer. In a age where gaming has a big focus on mutliplayer, and Nintendo SHOULD REALIZE that. If Reggie is too blind to force Sakurai to push for a incomplete game, and Nintendo is too, then Halo 3 will eat them alive, vs. being close in sales. This is make or break, and options are wat the series is all about. If it fails to blow the copmetition out of the water, the good dozen or so games coming out this year and early next will eat Brawl alive, and the Wii will begin to fall. Obviously the game is near done, because if it wasn't Sakurai wouldn't be satified, as he's stated he is. :)

And Sakurai's stated he's wanted many new fighters, so if we don't get many new characters, it will be obvious we got it Reggie's way, not Sakurais. And no one wants that. [insert Miyamoto's famous quote here]. That my friends, is why I expect 40+. Any less than 35 is a disappointment. And if Nintendo can't put in over 35 characters in the game, they rushed the game, and failed IMO, because it could have been so much more. A good game takes time, Sakurai and Nintendo realizes that. And if they sped up this game for not much of a improvement in roster size, why not just call it SSB Melee 2.0=???

They gotta be dedicated to the game, not just think of it like another new game they're making it. And we can already feel the love put in the game, so I expect nothing from the best. If they're multiplayer fails [and online if it has it], then the Wii loses this gen. amongst the real gamers. Not the new older non-gaming generation Nintendo's aimed at, the people who actually play games. I don't want a rushed game, and I'm not getting one. It's obviously not rushed, so expecting under 35 characters...well prepare to be AMAZED! Sakurai's mindgames skills will dazzle, enlighten, and amaze you! XD
 

neoREgen

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I second that notion, Johnknight1.
The sheer fact that they can actually tell you something new about the game every day for six months (+?) is something I would deem impossible for most titles. Super Smash Bros. started out tiny because it was an experiment. It's grown though, and Nintendo has realized how absolutely big this franchise has become for them. They've pooled so many resources into it, I'm very confident we won't be let down.
Sakurai indeed stated that he wanted a roster 40 characters deep.
I'm sure that he'll get what he wanted- all the resources to do it exist.

Get your hopes up. It's safe. ...and it's part of the fun. ;)
 

Farca

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Hell, I check the Dojo! website a couple of times a day. I like to just look at the screen shots =P.
 

solid_snack

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I'm not so sure about how Omnigamer set the cap for returning characters at 23, even though that sounds about right.
 

Homelessvagrant

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You know, JohnKnights comment about makes me expect 40+ characters. I hope we get a nice set pool of characters. But I know the game will be awesome regardless of how many characters there are.
 

neoREgen

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wow sorry two post the same too
i'm very sorry
you can hit the edit button on one of the posts to apologize for doing double if that happens.
the edit button is also good for adding additional comments you may think of after posting, before anyone else does.
just fyi. it happens to everyone.
 

BRoomer
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Nice post Omni, but I disagree on the cap you set. For a handful of reasons, Brawl was anounced at e3 2005 (wasn't started yet, but whatever, not my point) come e3 2006 a full movie demo showing in game play was already shown with newly textured characters, completely new characters, and new stages all working and functioning well. It was later revealed that brawl was based on melee's engine.

So in my little game programers mind it clicked that the game was done nearly from day one, and I mean that very literally. pika, mario and the rest of the "original 4" were all shown using their melee move sets with a few tweaks on knock back here and there if you want to get picky. It literally looked like old models with new textures. And if that could be done with those for, the same could easily be done for the rest of the melee cast starting you off right off the bat with 21 fresh original movesets to play around with (and probablly a few that didn't make it to melee as well).

And when you couple that with the fact the most game cycles are only 18 months long, and that brawl is shooting for past two years, and way past the development team size for your average fighting game, you can kind of get in perspective exactly what they can do with all that time.
Stickers, a branching story mode, bosses, and of course ATs(lots of work here) means that the game as a whole has grown so much more than we can weigh. I for one wouldn't be shocked if the game had well over 40 characters.

Basically:
Melee started from scratch, they had to build the engine, the tools, and then they could go for the meat of the game. with brawl they have a main course people already enjoy. The engine and tools are already there as well as some characters, that two years to add test and balance content instead of 8 or 9 months
 

Icetrash

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I look at Dojo every weekday :). I will be hoping there will be 23 characters returning(Dr.mario, young link and pichu cut) just as Omni predicts. And for a total roster of 38 (K.Rool included;)).
 
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