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Brawl by the Numbers: Roster Size

Omnigamer

All the things
BRoomer
Joined
Jun 16, 2003
Messages
4,412
Location
Boston, MA
How often do you check the Dojo? Every day? Once a week? 2am on the dot? Well, if you’re looking to fill the time between <a href="http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/items/item09.html">Spicy Curry</a> and <a href="http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/items/assist/assist06.html">Andross</a>, you can pick out a trove of information with good, old-fashioned number crunching. We already have all the information we need to predict the final roster size, especially if we bring in Sakurai’s own comments.

First, the basics:
<ul>
<li>Super Smash Bros. 64 has 12 characters</li>
<li>Super Smash Bros. Melee has 26 characters</li>
</ul>
The character roster grew by 117% between the games. If Brawl follows the same trend, it will have around 56 characters. However, according to <a href="http://smashboards.com/blog/2006/06/23/what-sakurai-didnt-want-you-to-find-out/">statements made by Sakurai much earlier in the game’s production</a>, each additional character requires tremendous work. Programming, art direction, and balance are just a few factors. Old school readers might recall this being the reason Ganondorf is inexplicably a Captain Falcon clone. <strong>Judging by Melee and Sakurai himself, 117% growth is unrealistic, and we can pin Brawl’s limit at 40 characters, with low-to-mid 30’s much more likely.</strong>

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Now, on to the currently known Brawl statistics. As of right now:
<ul>
<li>There are 21 confirmed characters (counting each of the three Pokemon as their own character)</li>
<li>There are 14 weeks left until Brawl’s official release</li>
<li>Recently, the Dojo has given us roughly one new character update each week</li>
</ul>
From that, we can assume a ballpark estimate of 12 new character announcements coming our way (including Metaknight and Snake, who have yet to be formally announced) for a total of 33 announced characters. Looking at the actual lineup, we currently have 11 returning characters and 8 new characters. For the sake of secrecy about unlockables, I am assuming that Sakurai will be more likely to post more returning characters than new characters, at least to the point where all returning characters are known. Thus, the cap on the number of returning characters is around 23, <strong>meaning at least 3 characters from Melee will get the axe.</strong> For the sake of continuity, I am going to assume that the original 12 characters from Super Smash Bros. 64 will all be returning. This leaves Jigglypuff, Luigi, Ness (possibly replaced by Lucas), and Captain Falcon due in coming updates. The number of other new/returning characters falls to 8.

Now, looking at the cast of Melee, the remainder of unannounced characters can be separated into two categories: Originals and Clones. By my count, there are 5 Originals unaccounted for, and 6 Clones. From the Clones, Ganondorf and Falco appear to be the two that would be easiest to create a unique moveset for. This is not saying that they all don’t have a shot, but from actual physical differences and available models (different character models throughout the series, i.e. Ocarina of Time Ganondorf as compared to Wind Waker Ganondorf), they are the most likely to receive a unique moveset, and thus increase the chances of returning. On the Originals side, this is true for all of them, as they are unique to begin with. Taking my Clones argument as more likely than not, that leaves a maximum of 7 of the last 8 updates as returning characters. <a href="http://smashboards.com/blog/2006/05/22/pichu-fans-of-the-world/">Pichu, your days are numbered.</a>

Returning to what we currently know of Brawl, Sakurai commented that there would only be “One to two” more 3rd Party characters in Brawl, besides Snake. Obviously, things may have changed since then, but due to the difficulty of acquiring licenses, I would say that the number does not surpass 3, and could even be 0. I will stick to his original statement however, and place a maximum of 2 other 3rd Party characters. There’s no way of predicting whether or not they will be revealed in Sakurai’s blog, however, as they are the most likely to be included as unlockables. Remember, not even Snake has been officially announced yet. Where is he hiding?

In regards to unlockables, SSB64 featured four unlockable characters, making up a third of the roster. SSBM featured 15 characters playable at start, nearly doubling that of SSB64, and 11 unlockable characters (42% of the total cast). If the characters at start increase linearly between SSBM and Brawl, <strong>we can anticipate 21 characters to start, and between 11 and 15 unlockable characters,</strong> for a grand total in the range of 32 and 36. This further supports Sakurai’s earlier comments. But looking at the currently announced list of characters, we already have 21 characters. If my conjecture holds true, that would mean Sakurai has already announced some of the unlockable characters, or will do so very shortly.

Finally, to summarize everything determined above:
<ul>
<li>Brawl will probably have between 32 and 36 characters, with the upper limit being 40</li>
<li>There will be between 11 and 15 unlockable characters</li>
<li>There are likely 14 character updates to come, 12 of which will be new</li>
<li>Other than the “Original 12″, there will likely be no more than 7 additional unannounced characters returning from Melee</li>
<li>If the rate of character updates does not slow/stop, we will be getting information on unlockable characters</li>
</ul>
Do take these with a grain of salt, but remember that there is more to glean from the Dojo’s posts than confirmations and screenshots. Happy crunching!

<em>Omnigamer is a respected tournament host and SWF Moderator, has worked with MLG in the past, and enjoys looking into the “invisible” technical parts of smash, often with devices such as Action Replay.</em>
 

PRINCESS PEACH 777

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 28, 2007
Messages
1,045
well any way i think i cheak the dojo site ever day:ohwell:
by the way i thought melee had 25 charecters
guess i was wrong:confused:
 

Scav

Tires don Exits
BRoomer
Joined
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Messages
7,352
Location
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Interesting point ;) we tend to count Zelda and Sheik as separate characters, as they are most often played exclusively. This is likely part of the reason Omni chose to count all three of the Trainer's Pokemon as individuals. Though as a side note, if Trainer just "counts" as one, then that leaves room for two more...
 

Kinnikuman

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 26, 2007
Messages
38
As I said before

This thurdays update IS captain Falcon I am the Prophet I know all!
:psycho:\
Interesting Point I;m saying Brawl is having 38 characters. Watch and learn wannabe prophets!
 

Omnigamer

All the things
BRoomer
Joined
Jun 16, 2003
Messages
4,412
Location
Boston, MA
Yes, I seperated Zelda and Sheik as seperate characters. This brings the total cast to 26, as opposed to the 25 you see on the character select screen.
 

X-x-Dyce-x-X

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 27, 2007
Messages
4,294
Location
Some town in New Jersey Mains: Link, Falco, Ganond
That was my guess from the start. A roster accumulated to the mid 30's.

And thank you for conveniently telling me how many weeks we have left before release. I was actually thinking about that this morning while I was supposed to be paying attention to my college orientation. ;) (shhhh!)

EDIT:
And with Meta Knight basically being revealed and his moveset explained this morning, I only have high hopes in my mind. Does anyone suppose it too hasty of me to expect him to be this week's character updated?
 

MFZ95

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 16, 2007
Messages
447
Sakurai said that some third party characters are gonna be unlocked...i hope tommorow they update a character
 

EdwardGordon

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 27, 2007
Messages
246
Location
San Diego
I disagree with... well... a lot.

My sources tell me that there will be from 32-38 playable characters excluding transformations. If you exclude transformations this means that there has been 16-17 characters revealed on Dojo.

Now we both assume that there will probably be 20-21 starting for Brawl. This means that if each character revealed on Dojo is starting that means we have 4 more characters to look forward to until Brawl is released.

Sakurai didn't reveal all the characters for Melee until it was released. So in the 14 weeks till Brawl we have can expect a new character update every 3-4 weeks. My guess is MetaKnight, two new characters, and one returning (Captain Falcon).

Now if all four characters from Smash64 return (Ness replaced by Lucas)

I agree with the Falco-Ganondorf statements.

Clones we will saw goodbye to: Pichu, Dr. Mario, Young Link (replaced by a new one?), Roy.

In 14 weeks that's about 70 updates. With four more characters, and all the remaining Special Moves and Final Smashes (27), about five more stages, ten more items, ten more assists, five more musics, five more how-tos and four more videos.
 

falcofuku69

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 28, 2007
Messages
101
Location
N.B Canada
Im the prophet kinnikuman

i correctly predicted todays and yesterdays updates, tomorrow is a stage, thursday a character and friday something about subspace emissary, great blog omnigamer, i have never heard of you before, do u know what happened to kirbykid?

And smahs many of us have actually been on this blog longer than you including me, princess peach, shadow kirby, homeless, kinnikuman, metroid man, sneaky, solid_snack, edward gordon, ravenkas(?) ect, sorry if i forgot anyone
 

Johnknight1

Upward and Forward, Positive and Persistent
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Livermore, the Bay repping NorCal Smash!
NNID
Johnknight1
3DS FC
3540-0575-1486
I'm guessing 43-46 actually. Anything under 40 is totally unacceptable, and would prove Nintendo was being pushy for the release date on Sakurai, to where he couldn't finish when he's ready. He was always kinda like "WFT" when Reggie jumped on the 2007 release after the first trailer, so ya. Clones can fix the number to be higher, definitely. Sakurai will take advantage of it, for sure. :)

The developing team is larger, HAL's still as much of a help, they have a new and better pysics server, they have APE and Gamefreak's undiveded attention, and the rest of Nintendo. Plus don't forget the mysterious developer of Brawl, Shigeru Miyamoto, Anouma, and Hideo Kojima. ;) I'ts Nintendo's biggest games, and increase of the roster can happen easily with the inclusion of 6-9 well made clones. :)

Cut Pichu, make Doc a alternate Mario outfit, declone Falco a bit, make G'dorf original. Keep Rot as a clone, but decloned [or add the Black Knight as a Ike clone], and keep Marth. Shiek IDC [her or Midna], keep Captain Falcon, Luigi [super luigified, but hopefully more origianal], Ness, Jigglypuff, and Mewtwo. YLInk=decloned into WW LINK [YES!!!!!=the equivilance of Luigi in Brawl/Melee]. As for the newcomers, that is a whole diffrent story. Falco is probably going to remain a clone, just somewat decloned [as should all returning clones become original, but decloned is okay=limited time].

So ya, CLONES FTW! Also, Dark Samus would make a good [somewat not very clooney] clone, Wolf could be a somewat last minute clone [added like Doc, but less clooney], Lucas [Mother 3] could be a doec-like Ness clone, and then the returning clones can be clones [minus Ganondorf; maybe Luigi] decloned clones. DONE! Well...except for 3rd party characters and every none confirmed newcomers [here's to WW Link].

I think you forgot the double update, and I think once we see clones, we'll see the amount of characters announced rise. And hopefully since we have 100 days til' Brawl, we get a good character today! :) SONIC! SONIC! SONIC! Also note that Sakurai hasn't been all "WTF?" about the release date, so they obviously are near ready, and Sakurai is probably more than satified. Which means myself [and hopefully everyone else] will be very happy in the end. :)

Also, something tells me with the 100 days til' Brawl mark, we'll either see almost all double updates, or just flat out a lot more, since there is a lot of ground to cover. :) HEHE, 2382 hours until Brawl....I'm excited! :) Especially since that last update confirmed we'll get "Secrets" to discover. Deja vu'=like the last three games=??? Hopefully taunt cancelling returns, as well as all other AT [that were useful].
 

Scav

Tires don Exits
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Messages
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Custom avatars are available to premium members and moderators, as well as to winners of various contests around the boards. As you make more posts, more avatars from the default list become available.

Edit: Johnknight, excellent post. thumbs up!
 
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