Brawl-: 1.5-1.6 thread archive. 2.0 is stickied

[UTDZac]

G&W is the best character in the game by far

<I dont see where you're going with this...>

 

[stingers]

just stating a fact my good sir

<hidden text is not hidden/>

 

[theunabletable]

What makes ROB the best character by FAR.

His camp game isn't THAT good (SDI>tech the multihit laser and punish, or get closer from teching it), he has a good combo game, but that's not unique to ROB. He has a good gimp game, but that's not unique to ROB either (MK has both, btw). Yeah he has some of the best mobility (I'd say Fox has better mobility).

He's obviously good, but I don't see what makes him the best character, let alone by a long shot.

Could you elaborate?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I still think CF is a bad character because he has bad hit boxes. His mobility has improved but it doesn't help him land his attacks because his hit boxes are so small. Bad hit boxes also contribute to combos that don't work. Show me a Falcon combo vid for brawl minus that is half of a melee falcon combo vid and I'll believe that Falcon is good. Good DI + bad hit boxes = no combos. I haven't seen a ganon 0-death. Proof? Vids? As for Yoshi, I can't say whether he is better or not. If his grab release was removed then I would imagine he is worse.

I'm not sure I believe that you've played this game.

I'm just going to mention knee sweetspot and leave it at that.

 

[Ulevo]

LOL, I'll critique a video and show you all the flaws with Falcon if you want.

I'm agreeing with Th3 Composer here. I'm kinda led to believe you haven't really exposed yourself to B- that much.

Snake, hitlag.

People don't seem to understand how incredibly broken he would be if the additional hitlag was not in place. He could hit shields all day, receiving a frame advantage for doing so. I bet he could ftilt lock people in their shield with the b- shieldstun if he had normal hitlag. I personally did not want a character to be reduced to spamming tilts and nothing else.

Assuming a character is going to be broken is almost always an incorrect assumption until proven other wise. That being said, if you really felt his forward tilts would be a problem, why didn't you fix the forward tilts, rather than nerfing an entire character you weren't even aware needed a nerf or not?

Tourney results or it didn't happen.

Also, I won't bother to mention how the shield stun in this game is ridiculous to begin with.

The hitlag was decided on to give him something unique to his character, and at the same time make an effort to balance him out as a whole. His projectile/mine/explosive game got an immense buff, as well as his grab and throw game. Perhaps people can learn to play him differently than in regular brawl or brawl+, or perhaps choose to not like him. Either way works.

If many Snake mains and players do not like him, I don't find that acceptable. I'm sure others would agree.

Again, I'm all for making a character minus, but assuming he needs a blanket nerf before you've even finished actually changing the rest of the cast and throwing a few tournaments is a little drastic for mere assumptions.

I'm sure this issue has been beaten to death, but that is this side of the story. I personally feel that he fairs just well against the rest of the cast, matchup dependent of course(as it usually is). I just don't think people should expect a once top tier char to continue to be so in this game. He's different. It's minus.

I'm personally not expecting any particular placement for Snake, I can't say for others. I just feel unnecessary nerfing, unless it's blatantly obvious it's necessary, should be avoided.

My ¢2 Kirk.


@ Cadet:

By the way, I'd like to correct my opinion on Meta Knights jab. It's actually fairly decent to combo out of. While you can just DI away from it and avoid a down smash, the shield won't go up quick enough and a down tilt or other possible follow ups are there. I still think there are other superior jabs.

Down tilt also does inch forward. I don't know why I thought it didn't before.

Anyway. With regards to Meta Knight. The issue I see with him currently was he was nerfed in areas that were his bread and butter, but was buffed in unnecessary areas. Probably one of his best kill moves, nair, was nerfed. Tornado doesn't trap people anymore the way it used to; the spike on the end of it is useless half the time because the opponent pops out of the Tornado before the last hit box connects. He was given the ability to use his remaining jumps after using a special in the air, which isn't even necessary. His recovery was already near impossible to gimp. Meanwhile that same "buff" took away his ability to cancel lag off ledges with Drill Rush, and took away his ability to cancel Shuttle Loop in to another Shuttle Loop. Meta Knight also has a ridiculous amount of stun when his shield breaks. He shoots very high in the air. His Dimensional Cape hit box was buffed, but it'll still be hard to connect with.

That said, his new glide attack is beast; his new up throw, even with the damage added to Meta Knight, is beast; I'd prefer his old forward throw, but that's beast near the ledge; his down smash, second hit box, is beast for mind games.

I wouldn't necessarily say Meta Knight needs to be changed so much as "cleaned up".

 

[forward]

Wow. Sweetspot knee. I am so convinced now, thank you, I never noticed that. Of course it's the sweet spot knee, it makes all the difference in the world. Obviously. How could anybody fail to see that his new sweet spot knee is BROKEN.

Enough Sarcasm. Show me proof. Tangible proof like a video or a how-to guide on how to combo with Falcon. All I've seen in videos are random attacks that sometimes lead to a knee, but more often than not it doesn't. People land 2-3 attacks and then the situation is reset. Tech chasing is non existent in this game because characters tech and recover from techs so much faster than melee.

Bad spacing is also due to bad hit boxes. Watch any video, no one has a strategy for spacing, they just throw out random attacks and hope it will hit. Then when it does hit it's rarely followed up because the movement of the characters does not flow with the attacks.

On second thought, I should low tier brawl characters still don't have a strategy for spacing. Everyone is spamming their newly powered up moves, but how thoroughly have they been tested? Ikes spam forward b in the air but does it do anything? People miss more often then hit after using the attack. Lucario spams fair, squirtle spams f smash, etc.

The problem is everyone is having too much fun spamming the moves that have been modified and they aren't analyzing the results. How many times does the move hit compared to missing? How many combos have you created? How many times has the move missed when it looks like it should have worked?

If people start playing to win then I think you'd see that this game is still prone to long matches that favor camping because offensive options are limited. The options are limited due to bad hit boxes, or, hit boxes that don't work well with the way the characters can move.

Edit: And just for the record I've spent more time on smash than most of you combined.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

@ Cadet:

By the way, I'd like to correct my opinion on Meta Knights jab. It's actually fairly decent to combo out of. While you can just DI away from it and avoid a down smash, the shield won't go up quick enough and a down tilt or other possible follow ups are there. I still think there are other superior jabs.

It might as well be a massive frame 7 hitbox that does 50 damage and gets you offstage against metaknight.

Down tilt also does inch forward. I don't know why I thought it didn't before.

Anyway. With regards to Meta Knight. The issue I see with him currently was he was nerfed in areas that were his bread and butter, but was buffed in unnecessary areas. Probably one of his best kill moves, nair, was nerfed.

It was? News to me.

Tornado doesn't trap people anymore the way it used to; the spike on the end of it is useless half the time because the opponent pops out of the Tornado before the last hit box connects.

This is unchanged, AFAIK... unless someone else screwed with it.

He was given the ability to use his remaining jumps after using a special in the air, which isn't even necessary. His recovery was already near impossible to gimp.

This is for things like descending tornado traps, and just abusing the **** out of SL offstage. Not for a buffed recovery. Buffed edgeguarding.

Meanwhile that same "buff" took away his ability to cancel lag off ledges with Drill Rush, and took away his ability to cancel Shuttle Loop in to another Shuttle Loop.

Does this matter?

Meta Knight also has a ridiculous amount of stun when his shield breaks. He shoots very high in the air.

Don't let your shield get broken.

His Dimensional Cape hit box was buffed, but it'll still be hard to connect with.

I don't know what happened here; originally there was supposed to be a waaay larger (like, huge) hitbox that did a lot less in addition to the more potent one... somehow that got ****ed.

That said, his new glide attack is beast; his new up throw, even with the damage added to Meta Knight, is beast; I'd prefer his old forward throw, but that's beast near the ledge; his down smash, second hit box, is beast for mind games.

Fthrow is, sadly, cg-bait otherwise.

I wouldn't necessarily say Meta Knight needs to be changed so much as "cleaned up".

I dunno.

EDIT: @Forward, are you honestly trying to say that CF can't combo well, and that the situation resets after 2-3 moves? If you mean after 2-3 moves because of nair->fair->fair->fair, then yes, I suppose that killing your opponent does count as a reset.

 

[BSL]

I haven't seen a ganon 0-death.

have you tried pressing the b button?

 

[forward]

have you tried pressing the b button?

Have you tried moving out of the way when someone presses it? Idiot.

 

[forward]

I
EDIT: @Forward, are you honestly trying to say that CF can't combo well, and that the situation resets after 2-3 moves? If you mean after 2-3 moves because of nair->fair->fair->fair, then yes, I suppose that killing your opponent does count as a reset.

Yes. That is exactly what I'm saying. Nair > fair> fair> fair rarely happens, and even if it does, it only helps to prove my point that people are spamming the new powered up moves. For all the times that this combo does land, it misses 5 times more. I'm sorry, but that is not consistent enough for me to call it a combo, I call it random.

 

[Luxor]

Yes. That is exactly what I'm saying. Nair > fair> fair> fair rarely happens, and even if it does, it only helps to prove my point that people are spamming the new powered up moves. For all the times that this combo does land, it misses 5 times more. I'm sorry, but that is not consistent enough for me to call it a combo, I call it random.

I think we're getting trolled here lol.

People use the new moves because they are good. vBrawl MK does much the same with his Dair.
Triple knee is lolimpossible, but double is doable. And awesome.
If kneeing your opponent won't work, DON'T DO IT. Combo another way.

Have you even played Brawl Minus?

Spoiler

and you not understanding BSL's obvious sarcasm made my heart scream with pain

 

[Ulevo]

Forward. If anything, it's too easy to combo in B-.

Have you picked the game up at all man? Or just watched out dated youtube videos?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Yes. That is exactly what I'm saying. Nair > fair> fair> fair rarely happens, and even if it does, it only helps to prove my point that people are spamming the new powered up moves. For all the times that this combo does land, it misses 5 times more. I'm sorry, but that is not consistent enough for me to call it a combo, I call it random.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwGFalTRHDA

 

[BSL]

Have you tried moving out of the way when someone presses it? Idiot.

obvious sarcasm doesnt seem to work here.... lolnoob

 

[[TSON]]

Can we not raeg over MK like vBrawl players do? Kthx

 

[kaizo13]

sry, i don't follow this project but what ever happened to...

Current changes being tested worth mentioning:
-Pit's arrows being even more flexible; sideB being shield-cancelable
-Charizard's rock smash shards not disappearing (STEALTH ROCK)
-Olimar's Pikmin being incredibly desynchy and crazy ****
-Marth gaining a sliding fsmash ("wavesmash")
-Bowser losing some of his SA
-Wario losing the annoying momentum on Nair and Uair
-DDD's Waddles gaining hitboxes on walk/dive/jump
-Lucario's blue balls are WAY bigger
-tweaks to sonic's fsmash and bair
-Ivysaur sideB has a critical hit option, Razor leaf can moooove
-Fixing Fox's wavedash

...very interesting updates, was just wondering how they were coming along since its been about a month since they were posted

 

[Bleck]

people are spamming the new powered up moves.

I joined this forum just so I could genuflect at the feet of the one man brilliant enough to realize that people tend to use a character's better moves.

We should really start to see some progress with custom codesets now that we've got this little bit of info in our hats. Things can only go up from here, gentlemen.

 

[standardtoaster]

people are spamming the new powered up moves.

So you're saying that people should use moves that haven't been changed at all more. That's just sad.

 

[Ulevo]

Can we not raeg over MK like vBrawl players do? Kthx

but tornaod is tooo god TSON

 

[Bleck]

Guys, I just got hit by Link's boomerang. It missed me on the way past, but then it hit me on the way back - like some kind of... boomerang.

Link is broken, you guys.

 

[dansal]

Who is this in response to again?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Guys, I just got hit by Link's boomerang. It missed me on the way past, but then it hit me on the way back - like some kind of... boomerang.

Link is broken, you guys.

Post of the day.

 

[[TSON]]

Guys, I just got hit by Link's boomerang. It missed me on the way past, but then it hit me on the way back - like some kind of... boomerang.

Link is broken, you guys.

i could see how that would be concerning

 

[Epic Kovumon]

Yoshi is beast.

Uair ftw.

 

[forward]

Like, you guys are all giving me **** for pointing out that Brawl minus still needs a lot of work. Why is this so hard for you guys to accept? When a person comes in here with criticism and concern for the game you reply with sarcasm and accuse them of trolling? Show some maturity guys, honestly. I really never thought my ideas were so radical that NO ONE would understand any of my concerns to the SLIGHTEST extent. I think the game needs bigger hit boxes, and NO ONE can understand this at all? Do you guys know what it means to have a bigger hit box?

Anyways, I'll break down a more recent video (probably from Sinz channel) of where I think there are problems with Brawl minus, and then I'll compare it to Melee and try to show how Brawl minus is not as broken as you all think.

 

[[TSON]]

Like, you guys are all giving me **** for pointing out that Brawl minus still needs a lot of work. Why is this so hard for you guys to accept? When a person comes in here with criticism and concern for the game you reply with sarcasm and accuse them of trolling? Show some maturity guys, honestly. I really never thought my ideas were so radical that NO ONE would understand any of my concerns to the SLIGHTEST extent. I think the game needs bigger hit boxes, and NO ONE can understand this at all? Do you guys know what it means to have a bigger hit box?

Anyways, I'll break down a more recent video (probably from Sinz channel) of where I think there are problems with Brawl minus, and then I'll compare it to Melee and try to show how Brawl minus is not as broken as you all think.

we aren't aiming for melee so dont compare it to melee.

and honestly, bpc is a ****tard so dont take him seriously

u just need to chill man, take a few puffs, maybe a shot, and i think ull be awwwwright.

 

[YagamiLight]

I played a bit more with friends yesterday and this game is just as silly as it was the during the first session. The staying power of this game seems pretty amazing.

I've been using Ganondorf a lot (we played mainly team battles) and despite how amusing it is to get a 666% Warlock Punch KO, more often than not I would find myself being shielded and then just dying off the side. Even in 1v1s if they mash buttons fast enough you aren't coming back to hit them with another Warlock Punch. This just strikes me as very silly, a move with a TON of start-up has a deserved amount of power but this large risk seems to make me hesitant to use the move. Are there any possible ways to fix this?

 

[Hozu]

They don't know how to fix it. However, can roll/spotdodge if you're fast enough, if you're still on the ground that is. That will prevent you from dying.

 

[Ulevo]

Like, you guys are all giving me **** for pointing out that Brawl minus still needs a lot of work. Why is this so hard for you guys to accept? When a person comes in here with criticism and concern for the game you reply with sarcasm and accuse them of trolling? Show some maturity guys, honestly. I really never thought my ideas were so radical that NO ONE would understand any of my concerns to the SLIGHTEST extent. I think the game needs bigger hit boxes, and NO ONE can understand this at all? Do you guys know what it means to have a bigger hit box?

Anyways, I'll break down a more recent video (probably from Sinz channel) of where I think there are problems with Brawl minus, and then I'll compare it to Melee and try to show how Brawl minus is not as broken as you all think.

Yes, Brawl- still needs a lot of work. I don't think anyone here will argue against that.

Forward, typically when a wide group of people disagree with your opinion, there's a likely hood it's because you may be incorrect in what you'r trying to convey, or simply are not informed properly. Not always, but usually.

And to be blunt, a lot of what you've said (not all of it) is kind of *** backwards.

It also doesn't help when you come in to the thread with a trollish attitude, flaunting your Melee skill and knowledge around, as if that's going to help you critique a game you don't seem to know a whole lot about.

I'm not ignoring you, or even trying to sarcastically mock you. I just out right disagree with some of the points you've made.

Something you might want to do is go to www.smashmods.com and just post in the particular character forums or general forum and address your specific concerns there. That way we might have a better idea as to what it is you're having a problem with or believe needs to be changed.

 

[forward]

Yes, Brawl- still needs a lot of work. I don't think anyone here will argue against that.

Forward, typically when a wide group of people disagree with your opinion, there's a likely hood it's because you may be incorrect in what you'r trying to convey, or simply are not informed properly. Not always, but usually.

And to be blunt, a lot of what you've said (not all of it) is kind of *** backwards.

It also doesn't help when you come in to the thread with a trollish attitude, flaunting your Melee skill and knowledge around, as if that's going to help you critique a game you don't seem to know a whole lot about.

I'm not ignoring you, or even trying to sarcastically mock you. I just out right disagree with some of the points you've made.

Something you might want to do is go to www.smashmods.com and just post in the particular character forums or general forum and address your specific concerns there. That way we might have a better idea as to what it is you're having a problem with or believe needs to be changed.

Yea, perhaps I do owe you an apology as my original posts that were directed towards you were rather mean and insulting. Anyways I'll go down the line addressing each point you made.

So when a wide group of people disagree with me there is a likely hood that I am wrong, but even you realize this is not always so. Well, I am a confident person. I am not going to be easily swayed by other's opinion. I am used to having thoughts and opinions that others do not share, but I feel like I am doing well for myself why change it? I am willing to listen to thoughtful responses, but when a disagreement comes down to:

Me: Falcon still doesn't combo that well.
Others: Yes he does, you haven't played this game.
Me: I have played it. Prove to me that he can combo by showing me a vid or a how-to guide.
Others: You are trolling.

Then it's hard to keep the conversation directed in an intelligent manner.

A lot of what I said is *** backwards. Ok. No it isn't. Wow. Look how far we've gotten. (lol that was only a joke) But I digress. My opinions are serious to me so I will not joke when discussing them.

Trollish attitude. If you go back and read my first 2 posts in this thread, I was praising brawl minus. It wasn't until I brought up the point that I think MK is still the best character in the game that I had people disagree with me. With the exception of acting like an *** to you and to a few others who only replied to me with sarcasm I only stated my opinion, reasons for why I believe my opinions, and asked for reasons why others had their opinions.

You disagree with me. That's fine. We can talk about our disagreements like men, can't we?

I will go to smashmods. Thank you for pointing that out to me.

EDIT: I wanted to address this point as well.

"we aren't aiming for melee so dont compare it to melee."

That's fine, but you can't avoid the fact that melee contains many similarities to B-. Dash dancing, combos, DI, ledge guards and recovery, shielding, rolling, dodging, teching, jumping. The list goes on. I do not believe it is a coincidence that so many of the early top brawl players were top melee players.

Also note that if you want to make B- different than melee than you have to understand melee. If you know what melee IS, then you know what to make B- NOT BE.

 

[DtJ Composer]

For the record my statement about having not played the game was directed at your statement regarding that Yoshi was likely worse just because the grab release may have been removed, not anything to do with Falcon

 

[Ulevo]

It's all good Forward. I'm used to people disagreeing with me all day long, I know what it's like. Being self confident is an awesome trait. There's nothing wrong with disagreeing with the majority, and to be fair, the majority being wrong happens a lot more often than one would usually believe. So yeah, don't feel you need to change.

Kirk had addressed what you've brought up last night in the Skype chat, and said you have some points that are valid and worth considering. According to Kirk, a local Falcon main he knows has had similar issues to the problems you brought up.

I can't speak for that, as I'm not a Falcon main. I just know that many characters in this game can "over combo" because of how high the stun is, so connecting moves can be a little too easy at times. Couple that with Falcon's speed, and it seems to make common sense.

The apology is appreciated as well, and I apologize for any lack of tact on my postings.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Like, you guys are all giving me **** for pointing out that Brawl minus still needs a lot of work. Why is this so hard for you guys to accept? When a person comes in here with criticism and concern for the game you reply with sarcasm and accuse them of trolling? Show some maturity guys, honestly. I really never thought my ideas were so radical that NO ONE would understand any of my concerns to the SLIGHTEST extent. I think the game needs bigger hit boxes, and NO ONE can understand this at all? Do you guys know what it means to have a bigger hit box?

Anyways, I'll break down a more recent video (probably from Sinz channel) of where I think there are problems with Brawl minus, and then I'll compare it to Melee and try to show how Brawl minus is not as broken as you all think.

To be fair, you did say some things that really make it seem like your opinion is severely misinformed.

 

[BSL]

I wanted to address this point as well.

"we aren't aiming for melee so dont compare it to melee."

That's fine, but you can't avoid the fact that melee contains many similarities to B-. Dash dancing, combos, DI, ledge guards and recovery, shielding, rolling, dodging, teching, jumping. The list goes on. I do not believe it is a coincidence that so many of the early top brawl players were top melee players.

Also note that if you want to make B- different than melee than you have to understand melee. If you know what melee IS, then you know what to make B- NOT BE.

vBrawl has all of those things except for dash dancing.... this is a brawl hack, so of course those will be similar. you listed basic necessities of a super smash bros. game

just sayin

 

[DevilKiller]

Intense argument calls for interruption.

This note is merly about cosmetics, but has anyone noticed Ike's sword glowing when it shouldn't? Not the sword trail, but the sword itself.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Do you have fully-charged eruption?

 

[forward]

What things did I say that made me sound misinformed?

 

[[TSON]]

EDIT: I wanted to address this point as well.

"we aren't aiming for melee so dont compare it to melee."

That's fine, but you can't avoid the fact that melee contains many similarities to B-. Dash dancing, combos, DI, ledge guards and recovery, shielding, rolling, dodging, teching, jumping. The list goes on. I do not believe it is a coincidence that so many of the early top brawl players were top melee players.

Also note that if you want to make B- different than melee than you have to understand melee. If you know what melee IS, then you know what to make B- NOT BE.

Melee did **** right, but we're not trying to be melee, we're trying to be Brawl-, you get what I mean? What we have is from melee, yes, but that doesn't mean we're trying to be melee. Hell, we aren't trying not to be melee either. We're just kind of...there.

 

[Bleck]

When a person comes in here with criticism and concern for the game you reply with sarcasm and accuse them of trolling?

Personally, my problem with your "concerns" is that they aren't so much problems with the game so much as they are problems with whomever it is you're playing with. If someone is spamming Captain Falcon's knee, have you considered that maybe it's because they either aren't very good or because they lack originality or spontaneity?

I mean, this is the same thing I thought about the 'Pit Bug' - someone abuses his ability to fly to camp above the stage for seven minutes so that they can secure the all-too-important victory. Was this truly a problem with Pit, or was it just terrible people being terrible?

Nobody is denying that the codeset needs more work (oh god Bowser please don't hurt me anymore), but to claim that your associates being asinine is the fault of the game is just ridiculous in general.

 

[theunabletable]

^The Pit bug was a little different.

I've tought my scrubby friends to play to win, and they DID abuse that **** lol. That was a problem with the game, not the players.