B!squick
Smash Master
Yeah, I mentioned that to them ages ago when MrEh first brought it up. Guess they didn't believe/care.
Sakurai, apparently.
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Data Bowser's Moveset Data & Discussion
- Thread starter Jerodak
- Start date
MrEh
Smash Hero
It doesn't mean anything. Seems to be just a visual effect.
B!squick
Smash Master
It means Bowser is actually a Yoshi. Don't ride him though.
MrEh
Smash Hero
Guys, I found more ways to abuse the 1 frame ledge snap vulnerability.
You can run off the ledge, immediately Dair, and land back on the ledge. If your timing is correct, this will hit or spike anyone snapping to the ledge.
This is guaranteed if your timing is good.
You can run off the ledge, immediately Dair, and land back on the ledge. If your timing is correct, this will hit or spike anyone snapping to the ledge.
This is guaranteed if your timing is good.
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Jerodak
Smash Lord
Interesting, I'll try this out sometime, can it work from a delayed Dair out of a short hop? Or does Running off help with something?
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MrEh
Smash Hero
Running off is just the fastest way, and thus the easiest way to time it.
You can do it from a short hop if you want, but that's slower.
You can do it from a short hop if you want, but that's slower.
Jerodak
Smash Lord
Alright, that makes sense.
MagiusNecros
Smash Master
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2014
- Messages
- 3,176
Will try dude. Will try.
Edit: Timing on this Run off trump is super strict otherwise you just die. Sh Dair is slower but safer.
Edit: Timing on this Run off trump is super strict otherwise you just die. Sh Dair is slower but safer.
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Jerodak
Smash Lord
So on characters that can't recover from A Bowsercide, or if the stage will kill them anyway, here's a fun set-up that you can try which should beat neutral stand ups and ledge attacks. Basically, you'll want to short hop over the ledge, fast fall, then do a side b. If you do it correctly, then you should grab the opponent from low enough that the momentum on the way down will carry you low enough that you won't be able to land on the stage when Bowser rises back up into the air, which gives you a guaranteed Bowsercide regardless of percentile difference. This also works if you get a ledge trump and the opponent regrabs the ledge, just walk off to side b and they should automatically be too low to make it back. Hopefully the glitch will be fixed soon, making this technique a little more viable, but in the meantime, it should still work on certain characters and stages for now.
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EarthenPillar
Smash Apprentice
Combo testing:
Mid-weight 20~35%, Heavy-weight 0~15%
ShortHop Fair (autocancel) -> Fortress -> [opponent: on landing] BowserBomb/DashAttack
[opponent: in air] Fair
Mid-weight 20~35%, Heavy-weight 0~15%
ShortHop Fair (autocancel) -> Fortress -> [opponent: on landing] BowserBomb/DashAttack
[opponent: in air] Fair
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MagiusNecros
Smash Master
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2014
- Messages
- 3,176
They can't shield/dodge?
S_B
Too Drunk to Smash
I'd probably kill myself a lot doing this, but I'm thinking instead I should be using grounded down+B to ledge trump at every possible opportunity because only one of the following is going to happen if I do:
-The opponent is hit by the bomb on the way down
-The opponent has been on the ledge just long enough and they're hit by the first hitbox and maybe the 2nd
-The opponent rolls out of the way and isn't hit at all
-The opponent is ledge trumped and I can perhaps follow with a B-air
Any way you slice it, it should be a VERY safe move (so long as you don't screw up the spacing and SD). The only exception I can think of would be characters who can put out enough of a hitbox above them that they'd beat it (like Link), and they'd need to drop from the ledge and immediately up air to actually do that before getting hit and they STILL risk the attack trading and being stage spiked.
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MrEh
Smash Hero
This isn't a ledge trump. It hits your opponent during the ledge snap during their 1 frame vulnerability. Your opponent never grabs the ledge at all.
Zapp Branniglenn
Smash Lord
I should note that if it really is frame 1 of ledge snap, then they are technically grabbing the ledge, and will have their double jump refreshed if they used it. That's the difference between simply hitting them before they grab the ledge. If your dair hits them before even them getting to the ledge, then that's even better, since they won't have a refresh on their second jump.
I dunno about risky dair strats on the first ledge snap. I kind of prefer the ledge trump method that's popular now. If they grab the ledge again, you can dair without super precise timing. If they opt for recovering high, then Bowser can Usmash or rar Bair to catch them.
EarthenPillar
Smash Apprentice
Let me test this out with other characters. As I was only testing it on Bowser, Yoshi, Rosa.
Seems these combos are split for Light-weight, some Mid-weight, some Heavy-weight,
meaning that at 0~15% you may only Fortress -> BowserBomb/DashAttack;
and at 15~25% you may only SH Fair -> Fortress.
Bair, Fair and Fortress all have their own % points where the opponent will be knocked down instead of flying into the air. No opponent of mine has yet to tech this knockdown, and have always been able to land a DashAttack, BowserBomb or another Fortress. This is what I'm playing at.
MrEh
Smash Hero
If you're hitting someone with a Dair, they're probably gonna die regardless if they get their double jump back.
This is Bowser Dair we're talking about.
S_B
Too Drunk to Smash
I know.
I was referring to bombing to the ledge (which can often result in a trump).
D-air would be stupidly/awesomely safe if it could grab the ledge and trump...
MagiusNecros
Smash Master
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2014
- Messages
- 3,176
Seems like a ledge trump to me based on the fact that the first frame of grabbing the ledge is ripe for the Dair Dunk. Which is basically what this is.
MrEh
Smash Hero
Trumping directly refers to the the instance where you grab the ledge, forcing an opponent off.
Zapp Branniglenn
Smash Lord
Ah, it seems that Bowser's first swipe of Dtilt reaches far enough below the stage to hit opponents that are safe from most moves while hanging onto the ledge. Characters like Palutena and greninja can be struck if you are spaced so that the edge of his first swipe is just above them.
Dair can also reach low enough to hit these targets too, but I like the dtilt as an option because it comes out faster, and you can act out of it faster on whiff or for followups.
Dair can also reach low enough to hit these targets too, but I like the dtilt as an option because it comes out faster, and you can act out of it faster on whiff or for followups.
B!squick
Smash Master
I think the point with DAir is that they're far more likely to die.
Zapp Branniglenn
Smash Lord
I presume you're talking about the spike hitbox on Dair. I was actually just making a point that dtilt could hit the elusive ledge hangers, and found right afterward that dair also fulfills this task. I was not referring to the prior discussion about runoff/short hop Dair. But if you did want to compare, Dair leaves you vulnerable for the entire duration you are setting this up. Dtilt has you at a step back, crouching.
Side question: Has anybody actually been able to perform the Dair spike on the ledge by running off? I can't get it, even with the aid of slowed down time on training mode. It seems impossible, as far as I can tell. And the short hop version is so easy to perform you'd master it in just a few tries at no possibility of SDing.
EarthenPillar
Smash Apprentice
Use it on Pacman when he tries to upB. I believe the meteor effect is in an upsidedown triangle shape made up of 3 circles... just a guess, but I've noticed u can achieve meteor at the sides and tip.
MrEh
Smash Hero
Considering how this entire conversation started because I was able to do it, I'm preeetty sure it's possible.
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Zigsta
Disney Film Director
I've done runoff dair spikes on Fox and Falco. If you time it right, their up B hits you upwards while they get spiked. Those are the only two I've tried it on, though.
Hitman JT
The Infinite One
So, the Omega Mario Galaxy stage is listed as going to sudden death on a Bowsercide, but I've had Bowser die first on that stage twice.
...oh God, maybe it's really character dependent, NOT stage dependent like we thought?
The characters were Villager and Ganondorf btw
Edit: Same thing with omega Great Cave Offensive, Villager survived.
Edit 2: Welp nevermind, it appears that Dash Slam just always results in Bowser's loss no matter what. I thought it was as janky as the regular side B but it doesn't seem to even go to sudden death at all.
...oh God, maybe it's really character dependent, NOT stage dependent like we thought?
The characters were Villager and Ganondorf btw
Edit: Same thing with omega Great Cave Offensive, Villager survived.
Edit 2: Welp nevermind, it appears that Dash Slam just always results in Bowser's loss no matter what. I thought it was as janky as the regular side B but it doesn't seem to even go to sudden death at all.
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Zigsta
Disney Film Director
Sounds like more fine programming from Team Sakurai!
MrEh
Smash Hero
Dash Slam sometimes results in sudden death on certain stages. And by "sometimes", I mean like 10% of the time.
Zapp Branniglenn
Smash Lord
Dunno about you guys, but Dash slam gets my vote for letting me throw a match faster.
Nah, actually, I'll just bank on taking the first stock and then taking the next with dash slam bowsercide. Because two stock matches are the real freakin' menace. It's also why I play Little Mac. Oh, you don't know this MU? You'd better figure it out within the first 60 seconds, pal. Now pick any stage that's not Duck Hunt, loser.
Nah, actually, I'll just bank on taking the first stock and then taking the next with dash slam bowsercide. Because two stock matches are the real freakin' menace. It's also why I play Little Mac. Oh, you don't know this MU? You'd better figure it out within the first 60 seconds, pal. Now pick any stage that's not Duck Hunt, loser.
Hitman JT
The Infinite One
After testing Dash Slam Bowserciding on every stage barring omegas, the only stage it goes to Sudden Death on is Wrecking Crew. Will do omegas when I'm done punching holes in every wall I have
...Yeah, omegas are 100% a no-go. If you're feeling suicidal with Dash Slam then non-omega Wrecking Crew is the only place to do it. Good luck getting anyone to agree to that stage lmao
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MrEh
Smash Hero
I've also had it go to sudden death on Delfino, Wuhu Island, and Kongo Jungle 64.
It's hella inconsistent when it happens though. I was trying to figure it out for ages, but it's like the game just decides to go to SD for the hell of it.
It's hella inconsistent when it happens though. I was trying to figure it out for ages, but it's like the game just decides to go to SD for the hell of it.
Hitman JT
The Infinite One
AMAZING game design. Flawless. Stupendous.
11/10 - IGN
Cassius.
you're deadMEAT.
Not sure if anyone said anything about this, but Ledge Cancelled Klaw is possible with Dash Slam and Slash--logically, of course. I finally have both of those customs, so I gave that a shot.
Dash Slash is cool. I'm personally not a fan of customs, but it's fun to use.
Dash Slash is cool. I'm personally not a fan of customs, but it's fun to use.
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Jerodak
Smash Lord
The way I'm looking at customs at the moment is that I will main "Vanilla" Bowser and secondary one or more sets that I like. Currently, after playing with customs for a bit, I'm favoring 2333 as my preferred "Custom secondary"
Oh also, For some reason, Luma can attack during Dash slam, even though it's immobile during the default slam??????
Karsticles
Smash Journeyman
Zapp Branniglenn
Smash Lord
Ah, yes. It was False from Rush Hour Smash who debunked this. His comment should still be visible on that video. Basically, there are auto cancel windows for aerials on the windup of the move. So if you land within just a few frames of inputting an aerial, you'll get the standard landing lag rather than the move's landing lag. There are no real applications for this, but I'll admit it sounds interesting. Maybe there is something there that warrants testing.
Just some Melee fans thinking they found L cancels in Smash 4. I hope the community cuts them some slack for their enthusiasm.
Just some Melee fans thinking they found L cancels in Smash 4. I hope the community cuts them some slack for their enthusiasm.
B!squick
Smash Master
Way to further confirm that Dash Slash is the only SideB Bowser should be using ever. Stay the course Nintendo devs.
Rend4125
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Oct 6, 2014
- Messages
- 48
- NNID
- Billiam4125
Dont know if this would be a viable option just something i sorta just thought up and havent really tried. But considering we dont have that many options when our back is facing the enemy, I was thinking the way some of us bowsers like to use retreating fairs to cover some approach options. Well why not just backwards fair approach to mix up the enemy, if shielded maybe land behind them and grab? What do you guys think?