S_B
Too Drunk to Smash
Don't forget pivot grab for the extra safe reach on an incoming spindash, though I suspect any decent Sonic will catch onto it pretty quickly...
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Bowser's Keep - Bowser Video Archive
- Thread starter Cassius.
- Start date
Muddyk
Smash Cadet
i'm just mad he can do that lol
Pivot grabs at least for me trade most of the time. Pivot Ftilt on the other hand seems to always win.
S_B
Too Drunk to Smash
Ah, never mind then...
MagiusNecros
Smash Master
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2014
- Messages
- 3,176
Spinddash has a hitbox so it usually wins.
Ftilt has a hitbox and intangibility so it beats spindash.
Comments for the match you needed the least help with of course:
0:09 - good try for the bair even though it ended up being too early. Since the percentages were too low for a stage spike and the angle of sonic's up + b was unlikely to hit the bair, I wonder if you should have optimized to get a hit at all and go for the nair instead. Then again maybe the the best thing would have been to maintain stage control and just wait for him to grab the ledge again.
0:13 - bair attempt again. because of the angle I definitely would have tried either an earlier fair or a trump.
0:20 - ok this is kind of a fundamental bowser vs sonic moment. He is spin dashing. You probably already committed to dashing but the distance is too short to dashing shield. Assuming you wanted to commit to approaching with a dash grab, there was only thing you could hope to be punishing, a shield cancel where he holds the shield instead of jumping or spot dodging or rolling. I think of all the options sonic has available, shield cancelling was the least likely.
I think what makes more sense here is dash attack to stuff the spindash. Another weird theorycrafted option would be to short hop right over the spin dash. The two options you have then are dair and bowser bomb. The likely hood that they will punish anything is low, but I think the interesting thing is that they might be safe, considering that sonic has to commit to a fair distance with spindash before he can come back and try to punish. Who knows though he's fast as hell.
0:34 - here you wasted a 2nd jump. Sonic was showing that he was going to fast fall way before you comitted to sacrificing your 2nd jump. He didn't pick up on it, but he could have had an easy punish on the way down.
0:43 - ok so you are this distance away, you've committed to a shield already and sonic is spin dashing. There is something you can do here that is always the right answer. In this situation you want to hold your shield and never drop it! The absolute worst thing that can happen is that he immediately dashes towards you and shield cancels a grab. The window for this is super tiny though so you should be able to assume that if they move towards your shield in that tiny window that he is going for a grab, and you'll have more than enough time to roll or spot dodge. After the window is done, sonic has two options. Move towards your shield blindly and hope you drop it (don't drop it), or wait you out. If they choose the 2nd option just double jump cancel the shield while moving towards them and reset the situation back to neutral.
0:51 - beautiful optimal punish
1:10 - again trying to punish the sonic landing. Spin dash will always beat grabs and command grabs.
1:44 - again fell for it. This is going to be an easy trap for mocha to get on you. when approaching just watch for that spin dash. If he starts it or even if he CAN start it, you may want to opt for dash attack instead.
1:48 - definitely something i'm guilty of, yolo fortressing the roll get up option. Sonic is especially hard because you can't really punish on reaction. I think this was actually my bad because right before you guys played I played him and constantly hit him with that
1:51 - after you SDI the up smash you have a ton of frames to punish. I bet reverse bowser bomb would have worked but klaw would have been respectable.
Buffaloface
Smash Rookie
Uh here's a video of my Bowser fighting a Sheik. I was kinda drunk. >_>
Advice is appreciated.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iA8zULB-1Dg
Advice is appreciated.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iA8zULB-1Dg
MrEh
Smash Hero
Post a video where you are not drunk.
x45x
Smash Cadet
Against Sonic consider up B as a fast punish on homing attack (it hits it out clean) and remember there is no shame in a jab mash or jab 1 crouch cancel rapidly for pressure to tell sonic to actually come in the normal way. And pivot grabs =D
S_B
Too Drunk to Smash
MagiusNecros
Smash Master
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2014
- Messages
- 3,176
And jump a lot less and not throw out big attacks like Bowser Bomb in the middle of nowhere.
1:31 was hilarious though. Both players took a minute to figure out what they wanted to do next.
KromosomY
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2015
- Messages
- 28
Heya guys some critism required here!
Matchmake:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcdIaIm9lpo
For Glory:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dC9ctN-BF-k
Matchmake:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcdIaIm9lpo
For Glory:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dC9ctN-BF-k
MagiusNecros
Smash Master
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2014
- Messages
- 3,176
Stop jumping.
KingKong_ad
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2009
- Messages
- 542
I did a youtube account to keep track to all my matchs streamed. ( I watch them to see my errors and learn from them) I will also put some videos of some tech bowser has to have an easy access to them.
If some people wants to see one of those, my youtube account is https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCaGnSJl7a7e9rp7GyomvPaw
If some people wants to see one of those, my youtube account is https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCaGnSJl7a7e9rp7GyomvPaw
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Cronoc
Smash Journeyman
To expand on MagiusNecros' comment, I'd watch your full jumps. The only reason I full jump off the ground with Bowser is to intercept an aerial opponent. Full jump is almost never used in the neutral. Short hops have their place in neutral because of our autocanceling fair/bair and SHADC options, but Bowser has no reason to full jump when his opponent is grounded. Bowser is weakest when his opponent is under him, regardless of what catching an opponent with his dair may make you think, and you don't want to put yourself in that position voluntarily. Full hop to air dodge is asking to get punished. Additionally he has no way to land with an aerial out of a full hop without incurring landing lag. The full jump habit is leading to a dair habit, which is going to get less and less mileage the longer a set goes on. In the Villager for glory matchup there was a lot of jumping, and it got you hit a lot. Bowser has one of the slowest jump-squats, making him very easy to consistently short hop with. I'd recommend that, but even short hop approaches are just a mixup, not necessarily bread and butter.
The jump habit also effects your edge guards. In general, you are committing to a specific edge guard strategy too early, and your opponents are noticing that and avoiding it. For example, you might full jump to catch a recovery from above, but in that case a Villager who is significantly far offstage can easily recover low. Bowser is not generally fast enough to commit to an edge guard, realize it won't work, and have enough time to commit to another. I noticed you making the edge guard decision too early all the time, whether with Bowser bomb to ledge, full hop or low edge guards. You would get the edge guard more often if you waited to gather more information before committing. Often that's just 1-3 seconds more, but it makes the difference. In that time, your opponent's strategy for recovering to the stage (stalling/going high/going low) will become clearer and your odds of making the right choice and connecting an edge guard increase. Don't forget that they have another hurdle once they grab the ledge, and if you're not confident in an off-stage edge guard you can always try to catch them during their ledge getup option too. Against a character without an offensive up b you can also get some mileage off of flame breath - something I'd largely ignored for months until recently.
I just want to ask to make sure, are you jump canceling your fortresses? Sometimes the time between your shield getting hit and a fortress coming out seems a little slow to me. If you're not making a habit of jump canceling fortress you should start immediately. Maybe I'm mistaking the extra hitstun of the latest patch for that though.
Regarding Ness, I'd drop any attempt to spotdodge or roll backward from PK fire, it's going to get you hit more often than not. The move is laggy enough that given close enough range, even a normal shield will give you enough time to punish it. Shield it, or if your timing is on point short hop or SHADC, but even then the jump options put you at risk because Bowser's jump squat is so long he may be caught by PK fire before he gets off the ground. Shield is the best option. There's a fine line between being safe from PK fire in shield and being in danger of being grabbed. But they are two distinct ranges. Play enough against Ness and he'll let you know where those two ranges are
.I don't usually get into analyzing little moments, but I think I can add something about this point in the Ness match. Ness misspaces his fairs a few times after that (at 8:25 and 8:28 also), and I'd Iike to encourage you to use utilt in this situation, especially the one at 8:14. You stay in shield there and choose a roll option, probably because you thought Bowser didn't have a fast enough move to punish Ness. Oh... but he does. Utilt has impressive range and coverage, and sets opponents up for damaging followups if they get impatient or aggressive after being hit by it, whether a nair to catch an airdodge, usmash to catch an impatient dair, or fair to catch a retreat. If you're really feeling it usmash works too, though that is both less likely to hit and more punishable. But maybe I'm going overboard with my utilt proselytizing. I suppose this one is more of my personal feeling.
Lastly, the Throw DI guide here is a great resource for things like getting out of Ness' dthrow combos.
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KromosomY
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2015
- Messages
- 28
Thanks, that did a lot of good to my perspective.
I do. I also OOS dash cancel my upSmashes. You see my problem here is that I live in Malaysia with a crappy & spiky 20mbps package that gives 300ms<X worth a response rate for all my games. That's the best ISP package that's available here. A lot of my moves are prebuffered. (except shield release of, course)
That puts me at an issue with reactive play and inputs that require releasing shield, e.g. Bowser's Run Stop to shield may register as a forward roll.
Below is a video to how it physically looks on my end with online play. Each match lobby interval I demonstrate things I can do consistantly that I could never in game.
https://youtu.be/EBVSEtDVHoI
Finding local players is not an option for my country.
That's very important information for me. Thank you! I realize Bowser gets a disadvantage of frames from Spot dodging PK fire. Will work on that spacing!Regarding Ness, I'd drop any attempt to spotdodge or roll backward from PK fire, it's going to get you hit more often than not. The move is laggy enough that given close enough range, even a normal shield will give you enough time to punish it. Shield it, or if your timing is on point short hop or SHADC, but even then the jump options put you at risk because Bowser's jump squat is so long he may be caught by PK fire before he gets off the ground. Shield is the best option. There's a fine line between being safe from PK fire in shield and being in danger of being grabbed. But they are two distinct ranges. Play enough against Ness and he'll let you know where those two ranges are
SHADC is impossible for me online.
You are right as gold here. I never wondered if I could punish in time with a utilt. Will definitely work that into my play!
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Cronoc
Smash Journeyman
Ugh, any lag and I leave online, there's a very small range in which it's acceptable. Sorry you have to deal with that.
KromosomY
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2015
- Messages
- 28
Hey it's all good. I'm happy that a lot of players have still been really helpful and that don't mind playing me with lag. The Singapore Smash Group especially. It helps a lot to know that there's a buncha players from Smash communities that empathize.
:DIf I keep up maybe I can establish a scene locally one day!
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Alright! I recently got 3rd at Norcal's largest weekly! I could really use some tips for the diddy games. That matchup is really stressful for me:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNCbpTYzvNE (Samus)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANyunifSXak (DDD)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWvZJwdct1c (Metaknight/Diddy)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIQ3Qw37m0A (Sonic/Lucina)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufZUgXW-NuE (DDD/G&W)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njTNY9aYQpw (Diddy/Metaknight)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNCbpTYzvNE (Samus)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANyunifSXak (DDD)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWvZJwdct1c (Metaknight/Diddy)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIQ3Qw37m0A (Sonic/Lucina)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufZUgXW-NuE (DDD/G&W)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njTNY9aYQpw (Diddy/Metaknight)
Cronoc
Smash Journeyman
Just some quick (fake edit: turned out to be not so quick) comments, even for the ones you won. My comments are usually related to the video above, but there's some crossover cause I critique videos based on recurring themes. And you posted in the critique thread... So you brought this on yourself. I hope I don't come across as a know-it-all here, I'm really trying to be very constructive... I certainly still have plenty to improve on myself.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNCbpTYzvNE (Samus)
I think the main thing here that made matches closer than they needed to be was your standing on the lip of the stage trying to fortress Samus' getup. Risk/reward ratio is off here. You'd be better served hanging back a little to catch the getup option, or to quickly dash in and dtilt if she regrabs after a off-the-ledge fair.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANyunifSXak (DDD)
This was the Dedede's match to lose, he didn't do nearly enough with Gordos. Did you ever play Pump Magic back when he was around? Damn he made that matchup hard...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWvZJwdct1c (Metaknight/Diddy)
I think a lot of these matches were just a matter of pacing - you were going in a bit too much. I'd like to see more mileage off of getting the banana, you only got 1 good punish off of a banana toss. Save it for when Diddy's back on the ground and you're back in neutral. I would prescribe the same thing for myself - getting in training mode and getting comfortable with grabbing it, tossing it, and knowing the toss trajectories. (Edit: don't forget you can SHADC into a banana toss, also from messing around with bananas in training, they can be picked up safely with a short hop air dodge or even fair at the right range - better than a dash attack certainly)
Feel like you're burning your double jump too often in situations where Bowser really just needs to get back down to the ground. From my theory-crafting perspective as I write this, Bowser shouldn't use his second jump apropos of nothing. To use it before there's a reason to (to get in position to attack, to avoid the opponent) is just taking away options. This was a big problem of mine at Extra Life, I need to work on this too. Here is an example, and another and one more of burning a second jump reflexively that results in taking damage (and worse). I understand the impulse to regain positioning, but that second jump is putting Bowser further away from the ground, and savvy opponents are not scared to be under Bowser. They will be unimpressed by the bluff that air jump represents. Sometimes it's better to just retreat and head back to the ground ASAP. It's really dangerous to be in a tumble without that second jump...
Also feel like you're avoiding using getup attack in situations where it could really help (to be fair here, you started using it more in the later matches, though not always in the way I'm about to recommend). When someone charges a smash while Bowser is on the ledge, optimally one would like to get up and punish it with a normal attack, but often there isn't time to get up and punish. This happened a few times in these videos - a charged smash whiffed, you did a normal getup and got hit during the vulnerability frames, putting you back on the ledge.
I want to encourage you to embrace the getup attack in these situations - it's not great damage, but it will reliably hit an opponent who's just whiffed a charged smash and give Bowser some space to reset the neutral. Here's one of many examples of this happening (from the next video). Now, technically the alternative is to do your getup just a moment before their charged attack hits, taking advantage of the invulnerability frames so you can throw a Bowser bomb or something while they're in recovery frames. It's a little risky because you could accidentally eat the tail-end of an attack, but that's the way to do it. But if the attack has already come out it's too late for that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIQ3Qw37m0A (Sonic/Lucina)
I kind of blurred what I wanted to talk about in this video into the last one. Funny, I went to a very small tournament a few months ago and beat Scourge there too. Interesting to see that he wasn't confident in his Sonic, who should have a way better matchup against Bowser. Another example of a tournament player not cheesing enough... no one tell him though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufZUgXW-NuE (DDD/G&W)
OMG at that first match. I don't have too much to say here, I'll just paste what I wrote in another forum on the matchup (most which you probably already know, but whatever), based my experience at Extra Life: "I played friendlies with that G&W later, probably 8 or so matches while he drunkenly gave me pointers on how to play the matchup. Basically, Bowser can never land on top of G&W ever except as the rarest of mixups (invincibility on usmash is frame 4, beats everything), usmash can't be punished except off a perfect shield, don't challenge G&W offstage, hold shield until completely sure his bair is completed, use jabs, play spacing better, either air dodge immediately out of dthrow if they go for an aerial followup or attempt to jump away and air dodge at the same time (basically a 50:50, G&W has ridiculous throw combos). Bowser has the better neutral but G&W has better punishes and followups."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njTNY9aYQpw (Diddy/Metaknight)
Already said all I've got on Diddy. I like the meta commentary on bad matchups from the commentators here. I don't think MK is one of those matchups that necessitates a secondary though. It's against Bowser, but not impossible. Like the commentators say I think there were a number of punishes dropped here that could have made a difference. Against Meta Knight I wouldn't be scared to fortress through him offstage, I think you were a little too scared of his intercept here. MK doesn't have any huge disjoints to use in the air, if he can hit you, odds are you can fortress into him at the same moment or right before. I'd probably save my jump and fortress straight into him on my way to the ledge, and if there's a trade I still have a jump left. I feel like in general there was a bit too much jumping. MK doesn't have a projectile, he has to approach. If you're on the ground when he does, you have more options to use against his approach than he has approaches.
And I'm spent...
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KromosomY
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2015
- Messages
- 28
Another For Glory Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aa2QdeWVti4
Maybe I can help other bowsers in learning from my mistakes or something. Cronoc, please let me know if you see any severe bad habits in these ones.
Btw, I took your advice and tried run stopping to shield and playing neutral more. I also started to depend on fortress more recently as not to stale my other moves.
I managed to capture some moments of sideB whiffing, Fsmash being interrupted and upB screwing Bowser over and allowing my opponent to get a free fsmash. I may make another video of some faulty Bowser moves soon.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aa2QdeWVti4
Maybe I can help other bowsers in learning from my mistakes or something. Cronoc, please let me know if you see any severe bad habits in these ones.
Btw, I took your advice and tried run stopping to shield and playing neutral more. I also started to depend on fortress more recently as not to stale my other moves.
I managed to capture some moments of sideB whiffing, Fsmash being interrupted and upB screwing Bowser over and allowing my opponent to get a free fsmash. I may make another video of some faulty Bowser moves soon.
_Rated D.R.K_
Smash Apprentice
Not as good as my fellow Bowsers, but I did notice some things KromosomY. You have a tendency to burn your double jump. Gotta conserve that, homie. I'd also like to see a bit more F-tilt and D-Tilts.
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Cronoc
Smash Journeyman
I think you look a lot better in these matches, and I can see you're incorporating some of what I told you about last time. I like that you're more grounded, though you still haven't gotten over your full jump (now into an airdodge) habit - forcing you to klaw as you hit the ground so as to land without lag. Keep in mind, there's nothing full hop airdodge can do that short hop air dodge canceling can't do better, including less vulnerable time and more options to act as you hit the ground. The only "advantage," if it can be called that, is that full hop is a more roundabout action that takes (and, I suppose, gives) you more time. It may seem like you're committing less because you could dair or jump again out of that full hop, but experienced opponents will know the limited options you've voluntarily given yourself and punish accordingly.
It looks like in these matches you're more interested in catching their ledge getup option than edge guarding them, and it seems to be generally successful - looks better than the missed edge guards from before. Whether you catch them offstage or on getup you've kept your advantage. Certain characters like DK are difficult to edge guard horizontally when they've started their up b, so punishing their up b onto the stage or ledge getup will be more effective unless you go significantly offstage before the up b comes out.
I saw some of your fortresses landed on stage - I'm pretty sure you got punished for that every time. In most cases this isn't going to help you much. If you're coming in way above the stage and you fortress there's not much to do but hope, but if you're coming in just above the ground, see if you can use the last pop of mashing b to change Bowser's momentum slightly to throw off punishes. To be fair, those may have been accidental, sometimes I accidentally fortress when meaning to do a klaw, mostly online. Generally you'll want to go for the ledge unless your opponent has such immaculate edge guards that the only way to get back on stage is to get punished on landing.
Next up is optimizing your punishes a bit more. Try uthrow to double jump fair at lower percents instead of the other directional throws. I saw a number of Bowser bombs to the ledge, but rarely a grounded one. If you're in the right range to punish something with it, Bowser bomb is almost always the optimal punish. Optimally you should be able to do one in either direction no matter where Bowser is facing - some people find a quartercircle motion starting from the bottom to be helpful for reversed ones.
Anyway, keep it up!
KromosomY
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2015
- Messages
- 28
Cronoc thanks for the review!
I'll work at it slowly with the abuse of mid-air jumps.
As I've said before, I cannot react out of 2 seconds due to lag delay and spikes. This makes it impossible to make use of a SH Air Dodge Cancel online...
I'm pretty sure you've noticed moments where my Bowser just stands there, not shielding when an opponent dashes towards me; that's me waiting for my game to respond as I hold down the button. This issue forces me to play committedly.
"The only "advantage," if it can be called that, is that full hop is a more roundabout action that takes (and, I suppose, gives) you more time."
^Given the lag, that is Exactly why I full hop.
I also took your advice on using a buffered utilt on shield. It's working really well!
You are right about not committing to a edge guard unless it's a solid read is the best option!
I'll try upthrow followup fair soon. Is it guaranteed? Perhaps a true combo at low '%'?
"Bowser Bomb: some people find a quartercircle motion starting from the bottom to be helpful for reversed ones."
^Noted, will test soon.
A recovering upB facing away from stage does not immediately grab ledge. It's difficult to time moving Bowser to the ledge sweetspot with lag delay being inconsistant. Could I maybe sideB to face towards if I get launched above before recovering with upB?
I'll work at it slowly with the abuse of mid-air jumps.
As I've said before, I cannot react out of 2 seconds due to lag delay and spikes. This makes it impossible to make use of a SH Air Dodge Cancel online...
I'm pretty sure you've noticed moments where my Bowser just stands there, not shielding when an opponent dashes towards me; that's me waiting for my game to respond as I hold down the button. This issue forces me to play committedly.
"The only "advantage," if it can be called that, is that full hop is a more roundabout action that takes (and, I suppose, gives) you more time."
^Given the lag, that is Exactly why I full hop.
I also took your advice on using a buffered utilt on shield. It's working really well!
You are right about not committing to a edge guard unless it's a solid read is the best option!
I'll try upthrow followup fair soon. Is it guaranteed? Perhaps a true combo at low '%'?
"Bowser Bomb: some people find a quartercircle motion starting from the bottom to be helpful for reversed ones."
^Noted, will test soon.
A recovering upB facing away from stage does not immediately grab ledge. It's difficult to time moving Bowser to the ledge sweetspot with lag delay being inconsistant. Could I maybe sideB to face towards if I get launched above before recovering with upB?
Jerodak
Smash Lord
Bowser's up throw to F-air is guaranteed on most of the cast. The range it works depends on the character and D.I. Against lightweight/floaty characters it can be either at 0% only, or from 0 to about 50-70 perhaps. On some characters at early percents, if they are very floaty, you will need the double jump, against many others you can just use a single full jump. Try going into training mode to practice the timing for the single jump f-air, it can be a bit tricky to land if you don't know the timing.
As a tip, wait till right after you hear the "POW!" sound from Bowser launching his opponent to buffer your jump, any earlier and you'll just stand there, any later an you're probably wasting frames.
Now against heavier/fast-falling characters, you can get it to work into later percents, just keep in mind certain factors like air speed, vertical resistance, and so on.
For example, King dedede can be k.o'd from a guaranteed up throw to f-air because of how late it works on him. His vertical resistance, poor airspeed and large hurtbox really hurt him here. Training mode does not account for every variable but it's not a bad way to experiment with your options.
Hope that helps!
As a tip, wait till right after you hear the "POW!" sound from Bowser launching his opponent to buffer your jump, any earlier and you'll just stand there, any later an you're probably wasting frames.
Now against heavier/fast-falling characters, you can get it to work into later percents, just keep in mind certain factors like air speed, vertical resistance, and so on.
For example, King dedede can be k.o'd from a guaranteed up throw to f-air because of how late it works on him. His vertical resistance, poor airspeed and large hurtbox really hurt him here. Training mode does not account for every variable but it's not a bad way to experiment with your options.
Hope that helps!
Cronoc
Smash Journeyman
Ah, I forgot about that. I'm a little skeptical about it being "impossible" since the input is a simple one, but I'll take your word for it.
Actually I thought many of your matches looked pretty good for someone dealing with lag like you describe
Uthrow to fair is Bowser's one throw combo, definitely worth working into your play. There are also situational followups afterwards depending on how aggressive/impatient your opponent is, like fast falling after the fair into usmash.. Jerodak explained it well, though I'll say I pretty much always double jump into fair, if not for height, then for a little more speed getting up there.
I saw you using klaw to face towards the stage, that's an option. In a laggy environment a reversed fortress can be a little rough to snap onto the stage with. My sympathies.
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KingKong_ad
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2009
- Messages
- 542
Videos from my last weekly! I played all my sets on stream so yeah there is a lot...
Winners 1st round: KingKong vs Diamat (Mario/Zss) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXmOoDTuaUk&list=PLpKmc35BaFbe_Lk2cchtQB-qfbShapeOB&index=6
Winners 2nd round: KingKong vs M_Kappa (Dedede) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTDWGxRj1lM&index=7&list=PLpKmc35BaFbe_Lk2cchtQB-qfbShapeOB
Winners 3rd round: KingKong vs GUARD (Fox) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_cJl7Z3uzA&index=8&list=PLpKmc35BaFbe_Lk2cchtQB-qfbShapeOB
Winners Quarters: KingKong vs wtt/Wawasi (Luigi) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39maNlURqc4&index=9&list=PLpKmc35BaFbe_Lk2cchtQB-qfbShapeOB
Winners Semis: KingKong vs AoD_ExSoldier (Fox) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EiE-NG2Ya8&list=PLpKmc35BaFbe_Lk2cchtQB-qfbShapeOB&index=10
Winners Finals: KingKong vs Boreal_Holy (ROB) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQ4VNT6bG3A&index=11&list=PLpKmc35BaFbe_Lk2cchtQB-qfbShapeOB
Losers Finals: KingKong vs wtt/Wawasi (Luigi) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dqw3nE64STA&list=PLpKmc35BaFbe_Lk2cchtQB-qfbShapeOB&index=12
Grand Finals: KingKongvs Boreal_Holy (ROB) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyW8QQ9EWjg&list=PLpKmc35BaFbe_Lk2cchtQB-qfbShapeOB&index=13
I still do a lot of mistake, so yeah its fun to see I can still improve
Winners 1st round: KingKong vs Diamat (Mario/Zss) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXmOoDTuaUk&list=PLpKmc35BaFbe_Lk2cchtQB-qfbShapeOB&index=6
Winners 2nd round: KingKong vs M_Kappa (Dedede) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTDWGxRj1lM&index=7&list=PLpKmc35BaFbe_Lk2cchtQB-qfbShapeOB
Winners 3rd round: KingKong vs GUARD (Fox) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_cJl7Z3uzA&index=8&list=PLpKmc35BaFbe_Lk2cchtQB-qfbShapeOB
Winners Quarters: KingKong vs wtt/Wawasi (Luigi) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39maNlURqc4&index=9&list=PLpKmc35BaFbe_Lk2cchtQB-qfbShapeOB
Winners Semis: KingKong vs AoD_ExSoldier (Fox) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EiE-NG2Ya8&list=PLpKmc35BaFbe_Lk2cchtQB-qfbShapeOB&index=10
Winners Finals: KingKong vs Boreal_Holy (ROB) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQ4VNT6bG3A&index=11&list=PLpKmc35BaFbe_Lk2cchtQB-qfbShapeOB
Losers Finals: KingKong vs wtt/Wawasi (Luigi) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dqw3nE64STA&list=PLpKmc35BaFbe_Lk2cchtQB-qfbShapeOB&index=12
Grand Finals: KingKongvs Boreal_Holy (ROB) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyW8QQ9EWjg&list=PLpKmc35BaFbe_Lk2cchtQB-qfbShapeOB&index=13
I still do a lot of mistake, so yeah its fun to see I can still improve
Jerodak
Smash Lord
Cronoc
There isn't too much issue with double jumping for the f-air. It definitely makes it easier, the trade off is that you lose the second jump so you give up a few options from certain positions, like near the ledge. It's really just mix-ups though, so you aren't passing up any guarantees.Since we're on the topic of throwing, I'd like to add in something about back throw. At lower percents, back throw to forward air is a nice set-up. If you catch a double jump, it can lead to solid damage or a gimp especially if they go offstage. It's not guaranteed, but it's a great mix-up. I haven't seen much mention of it, so just putting it out there just in case.
damn
KingKong_ad
you are the truth! imma check these games out later but it looks awesome so far.
KingKong_ad
you are the truth! imma check these games out later but it looks awesome so far.
Cronoc
Smash Journeyman
If you just got into playing Smash 4 as recently as I'm led to believe, your Bowsering is already looking pretty impressive. Solid play and great reads. You made some mistakes based on matchup inexperience, but then again so did your opponents. Unfortunately the more one's opponents know the matchup the worse it gets for Bowser as certain options get locked out, but there's also some good stuff to know as Bowser. Just cause you fought 2 Foxes, if Fox uses his up b directly below the ledge he's practically asking to get stage spiked with a runoff bair.
Yeah I do the back throw to fair at low percents too, for some reason I never thought of including it. It requires bad DI, but because it's so fast and unexpected at low percents, odds are in our favor. Also has some possible followups.
Since we're on the topic of throwing, I'd like to add in something about back throw. At lower percents, back throw to forward air is a nice set-up. If you catch a double jump, it can lead to solid damage or a gimp especially if they go offstage. It's not guaranteed, but it's a great mix-up. I haven't seen much mention of it, so just putting it out there just in case.
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Cassius.
you're deadMEAT.
Nah guys don't believe him; David played Smash 4 before and has been playing Bowser for even longer. I'm not surprised at all that he has to go head to head with Holy all the time.
My son puts in work...or daughter, based on the family tree loool
I'm gonna take a look at the videos though. KingKong did take a short hiatus so we need to bring him up to speed.
My son puts in work...or daughter, based on the family tree loool
I'm gonna take a look at the videos though. KingKong did take a short hiatus so we need to bring him up to speed.
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Boozer
Smash Apprentice
i managed to get two of my sets at my last monthly recorded C:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkYILYdwfwY vs ROB
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFEHeQoy6g8 vs ZSS
watching over them i can at least see that i need to learn better gyro control and need to stay a lot more grounded against zss (and that that character needs to get gutted~) or something
any and all advice is appreciated! ^_^
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkYILYdwfwY vs ROB
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFEHeQoy6g8 vs ZSS
watching over them i can at least see that i need to learn better gyro control and need to stay a lot more grounded against zss (and that that character needs to get gutted~) or something
any and all advice is appreciated! ^_^
KingKong_ad
I'll start backwards with set 2 vs Holy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyW8QQ9EWjg&list=PLpKmc35BaFbe_Lk2cchtQB-qfbShapeOB&index=13
I think the theme of this match is bad combo DI. Every time you get combod by the ROB you move towards him rather than away from him. leaving room to get combod even more: like here and here. Another tip on this matchup is SHADC. Catching a gyro and immediately cancelling into throwing it, is a very powerful tool. You can also get kills off Klaws and even Bowser Bombs when using slower moves like Robo Beams. I'll also just breakdown the microsituations since that kind of stuff is helpful to me:
- on the ledge: At this distance there are two possible threats from ROB, Robo Beam and gyro. I think you suspected neither or robo beam. If you suspect gyro the best answer would have been to do fair from the ledge. If you time it right you get the auto cancel. Bowser actually has an option that covers both cases. You can do SHADC from the ledge. The timing is very strict, and literally no Bowser's are using this in competition, but somebody has to be the first right?
- smashville platform: This up tilt was brilliant. . It literally covered every option but shield. The ROB was incredibly lucky that it dodged that giant moving hit box.
- bowser bombing near the ledge: I can mostly respect this. Most normal get up options can be punished by this, and if you get a shield or a get up attack, that's the stock. Still you can get many of the same benefits by Bowser bombing the ledge itself. You probably won't break a shield, but you're a lot safer. Down smash I think was the best option here.
- gyro'd to death: So I think one of two things is going on here. A lot of people from Brawl come in thinking if you fair close to the blast zone, that it makes you survive longer. This is no longer true in smash 4. The other thing that could have happened is you were trying to preemptively catch the gyro. I think air dodge is faster, so if you are trying to catch it, that's probably the better option anyway.
- down throw: up throw fair is the better option here. Should be very easy to pull of against ROB.
- final death: I'm pretty sure if you DI'd the throw away while mashing air dodge, you should have been able to dodge this. Maybe not though.
I'll probably do more analysis later, but i'll say that you're understanding of the neutral is a lot stronger than mine so i'll be studying these videos a lot.
S_B
Too Drunk to Smash
You know, something that occurs to me is that, when you and Luigi are on the last stock and he's recovering, you can probably drop low and klaw him before he Up+Bs to the ledge.
Remember that, before he uses Up+B, he's always going to want to drop to a certain depth first. That means you can probably predict where he's gonna be and get him with the klaw offstage. His Up+B coin hits don't cause Bowser to flinch until very high %s, thanks to tough guy.
I'll have to try this next time I fight a Weegee...
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KingKong_ad
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2009
- Messages
- 542
You are right I have to work on my DI from combo, thanks for pointing out. And I sure need to pratice the SHADC with an item.
- Im actually working a lot on it, I can do it about 50% of the time. Not good enough to do it in competition yet tough. And yeah I must use these other options, I chose bad options at that time and must work on it
Thanks
You are totally right. The problem here is that I get free stock really often when not playing a really good opponent. But for the good ones, I will get punished. I need to adapt and not doing that downb in this situation. Thanks
Im totally aware of it, its just that my fingers didnt forget it yet..... I need to get rid of that
I remember at that exact time that I told myself it will probably dont combo since each time Im doing it while having rage, the opponent escaped it when they DI it properly since the increased knockback. So with 9% that ROB had already I wasnt sure so I took that 12% instead of 10% but I might have should do the Uthrow anyways.
A really bad play from my part, nothing to say ahah
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Jerodak
Smash Lord
Just a tip vs R.o.b; avoiding the gyro so it lands behind you or catching it is generally always better than shielding it. If you shield, you're basically giving the gyro back for free.
It's R.o.b's best projectile, do you want to remove it as an option for as long as possible, and hanging onto it gives you a decent projectile of your own.
The laser is slow on start up and can only be used once every four seconds. Meanwhile, the gyro's start up is fast and it can be used anytime that R.o.b doesn't have one in play. So the instant you shield, he can already use another one; taking advantage of this can make R.o.b significantly easier to approach.
When R.O.B uses fuel, it does not begin to recharge until he touches the ground. As long as he is airborne or grabbing the ledge, he doesn't get any fuel back. Also, even if he does land, he must recharge over time, he doesn't get his fuel back all at once. It takes somewhere around 5-7 seconds for R.o.b to fuel up from an empty tank. So your priority should be to get him back in the air and offstage so you can force a recovery with less fuel.
Rob is pretty floaty, his hurtbox is big, and his most threatening landing options have a lot of start-up. So even just putting R.o.b in the air and applying pressure as he tries to land isn't a terrible option.
It's R.o.b's best projectile, do you want to remove it as an option for as long as possible, and hanging onto it gives you a decent projectile of your own.
The laser is slow on start up and can only be used once every four seconds. Meanwhile, the gyro's start up is fast and it can be used anytime that R.o.b doesn't have one in play. So the instant you shield, he can already use another one; taking advantage of this can make R.o.b significantly easier to approach.
When R.O.B uses fuel, it does not begin to recharge until he touches the ground. As long as he is airborne or grabbing the ledge, he doesn't get any fuel back. Also, even if he does land, he must recharge over time, he doesn't get his fuel back all at once. It takes somewhere around 5-7 seconds for R.o.b to fuel up from an empty tank. So your priority should be to get him back in the air and offstage so you can force a recovery with less fuel.
Rob is pretty floaty, his hurtbox is big, and his most threatening landing options have a lot of start-up. So even just putting R.o.b in the air and applying pressure as he tries to land isn't a terrible option.
Cronoc
Smash Journeyman
To add to that, ROB players often don't pay much attention to their fuel, and are prone to burning a lot of it trying to fake Bowser out as to when they'll grab the ledge, or doing uair tricks below. Make them recover twice and they'll often be helpless - and when ROB has to abandon his stalling tricks and go straight to the ledge a dtilt will punish him nicely before he sweetspots. ROB's head usually goes above the ledge before he snaps to it due to the nature of his recovery. This is why the ROBs have so many tactics to try and clear their landing.
I think there is a time and a place for it. Namely when both players are around 30%-70%. The reason is that if you break a shield at 30%, you are up an entire stock. That's pretty much the match, and if it's game one that's likely the set since you have counter pick advantage. Even it's going to happen like 20% of the time, it's still worth trying in that particular circumstance.