Q&A Bowser's Inside Story - Q&A

[Karsticles]

That Flame Choke tech.

When I am on my game, I dodge it consistently. It is more about random Wizard Kicks during footsies.

 

[MagiusNecros]

When I am on my game, I dodge it consistently. It is more about random Wizard Kicks during footsies.

We have to learn to make Ganon attack first because he commits to every attack he throws out.

 

[MrEh]

After you've played against custom Ganon, random flame chokes and wiz kicks aren't even an issue.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Main draw of custom Ganon is what type of kick he is using. Other moves are pretty set.

 

[Cassius.]

I think Ganondorf is one of the easiest MUs we have because of a few reasons, but two are particularly important, and touch upon a stylistic point that a lot of players (Smash 4 players specifically) do not employ often enough.

First of all, if you are a person or a player even, with decent reflexes, you really should have no issue avoiding anything that Ganondorf does if you are outside of his down-tilt range. in fact, you shouldn't even be near the range where Ganon can hit you with an attack that's not flame choke/wiz kick at all. You have to play an extremely rigid kind of footsies against him. I hate chalking up a match up to the fact that a character's moves are easy to react to, but I really do think this is the case.

Secondly, our pivot grab range is enormous. There is no grab armor, so you do have to have some sort of common sense about when you can and cannot use it, but you should be able to pivot grab a flame choke on reaction and grab him before he grabs you due to the disjoint. Even if you don't feel comfortable with taking that risk, just dash away! You can literally walk or dash away from any move that propels him forward and punish accordingly. You just have to be patient and aware of what's going on.

He loses the matchup to himself, and that becomes even more evident once Bowser (or any character, really) has the life lead; nothing relevant about him his changed from the previous game. He's obviously powerful, and can steal a stock if you're an idiot, but he can't force a situation...at all. He requires some kind of unfavorable commitment to get anything going. This is partially why I still think he's still a garbage character, and it alludes to my third point.

If you do get the life or percent lead, you have no business approaching Ganon again. Ever. That is something that requires a lot of discipline. It's really not that hard, but if you do intend to play Bowser seriously at any point, I highly recommend you start learning how and to what extent you can learn to let someone hang themselves in this game. That is a skill that's applicable for any character in any matchup, but it's easiest to see how useful it is against Ganon.

This is all, of course, assuming that you do get the lead and can maintain it. But, even if you do have to play from behind, a decent amount of Bowser's moves require you to take a lot less risks than Ganondorf has to to maintain or change any sort of lead.

 

[MrEh]

Ganon's strong upB (Dark Fists) is also ridiculous and worth mentioning. It punishes over-extensions super hard. But since you're Bowser, you really shouldn't be over-extending most of the time anyway. As long as you don't get baited by it, you can just out-footsie him all day and he can't do much.

That move is Ganon's only kill move that isn't ridiculously telegraphed. If customs aren't a factor, then Ganon is probably one of Bowser's best matchups. That's not saying much, but take what you can get.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Usually bowser falls out of DF so it isn't much threat. Be wary of it's kill hit though especially when Ganon recovers low for a ledge attack.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

@Corgian If Falcon is dashing in, you also have the option to spot dodge.

 

[herpyderpherper]

What charecter works best with Bowser on teams? I personally think he needs someone really fast to break him out of juggles or comboes, with a great recovery to help out Bowsers decent recovery, i think sheik, villy and maybe sonic

@ UltimaLuminaire so anyone whos fast with good frame data bar little mac

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

@ herpyderpherper Diddy Kong is also a valid competitive choice, especially with FSmash KO power, a solid spike, DTilt utility, and aerial priority + good frame data. You want any character with frame data great enough to impose consistent and constant pressure throughout the match. Sheik seems to perform better than Diddy, being capable of dominating the air while knocking you out of end lag on the ground via needles. Villager would work better with a character that has better frame data than Bowser. Sonic is an excellent 2v2 character in general, so you can't really go wrong there.

 

[Synnett]

Hey! So I just bought smash 3ds, and I must say I'm disappointed... (really, that joystick is a pain, the controls simply sucks) The controls are so bad I can't even play most of the characters, the only one I'm able to play properly is Bowser... but he's too fast!

Trying to jump, he jumps too high, trying to run he goes too far, his smashes are bad, his whirling fortress got nerfed to oblivion, can't move in the air when fire-breathing. No really, if a character have a counter, I simply can't do anything. He isn't even the tank he used to be, I get ohko at 80%. And with characters with ranged attacks "cough" Ness "cough", I can't even come back on the stage. Every ground attacks can be countered by a grab, and in the air he's hopeless.

So how do you even play him? There's so many changes he is awkward to play. And the joystick omg... any tips for a better control of this heresy? Any tips welcomed. I'm trying to watch videos of Bowsers, but I can't learn anything.

I mean, my Boozer used to be cute 3: Pwning in Melee...

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

• Slide the thumb pad.
• Learn to tap a button to jump instead of sliding the thumb pad to jump. That's easier for most people on 3DS.
• Learn the Smash 4 neutral game. It's different from Melee due to the power of shield and the nerf to air dodge and movement.
• Practice pivot grab on the thumb pad. People that run into shield will shed salty tears.
• Don't waste your second jump.
• Don't DAir or Bomb thinking it'll let you safely touch solid ground.
• Escape to the ledge if you have to.
• Jab 1 has a frame advantage on hit and is otherwise a really safe move to throw out and check for dash grabs. Experiment with it.

 

[Synnett]

• Learn the Smash 4 neutral game. It's different from Melee due to the power of shield and the nerf to air dodge and movement.
• Practice pivot grab on the thumb pad. People that run into shield will shed salty tears.
• Don't DAir or Bomb thinking it'll let you safely touch solid ground.
• Escape to the ledge if you have to.

About the neutral... whenever I tried to attack a ness, it would grab me. It clearly says in the video that attack beats grab, but he kept grabbing my flying fortress whenever I used it, and all my other attacks on occasion. Any idea on this?

Pivot grab? Do you have an external source?

Is the bomb still a good option to grab the ledge? Otherwise this move is completely useless.

Any tips on ledge recovery? Bowser seems to be very predictable since it follows the same pattern every time. I learned the hard way that you can't grab the ledge two times in a row. :/

And finally, is it just me, or the online have a lot of delay?

Thanks! I didn't realize there was a thread for this, thanks for merging.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

Shield grab is a result of the shield. Ness also has an absurd grab range. Our Fortress has no disjoint until the end of hte move. Please be aware of that.

See it in action and practice. Pivot grab and pivot FTilt can allow you to catch rolls or spot dodges, too.

Bomb is a good option to ledge grab unless the opponent has auto-guard (another Bowser's USmash) or a good disjoint (Palutena's USmash, anyone with a sword). The move, grounded, is an excellent stock-closer. It starts up at a decent speed, more reliably chains into the second hit than in Brawl, and will typically destroy a shield if the opponent holds their shield. The first hit of the grounded version also triggers counters, letting you hit with the second part easily. Learn to use this move.

You can cover the ledge by pulling back and attacking. You can also standard get-up, which should have 4 frames of vulnerability, and either shield (1 frame) or Fortress. You can also pull away -> double jump -> air dodge. If you input a special move, such as side-b, you can also cancel the end lag of the air dodge before or just as you hit the ground. Done on-stage from a short hop, it's called a short hop air dodge cancel (SHADC).

Online 3ds is really bad. You just have to keep exiting and re-entering rooms and hope you get someone with compatible connection speed.

 

[Synnett]

Okay nope, I'll go back to Pikachu. This is waaay too far from my Bowser playstyle. At least with that little mouse I can still play the way I used to.

Wait, so this game is technically forcing everyone to play the same way with every characters in order to be good? So now it's a mish-mash of grab/evade/shield? I understand why the videos are so long and boring to watch, everyone play the same boring way. It got even worse than melee, one specific play is overpowered.

Well, I might as well bring the game back to the store. Being required to play in a way that used to be called "playing bs", nope. I like to play unpredictable; now any character who spams his counter/grab will destroy me, and they all do.

I'd like to express my idea more clearly, but my knowledge of english is limited.

Ah well, I'll keep it to play casual with my friends, or for long trips.

Ps. A few weeks ago we had a an after-party for prom with my friends, and someone brought his Wii U along with smash 4. Every single person got pissed at the game, so we switched to my Gamecube, and we all had fun. That's sad.

 

[MasterCheeze]

This has probably been mentioned before, but has anyone ever messed around with short hop > air dodge > buffered B move? If you short hop and air dodge, you'll land with the air dodge lag, but if you buffer a B move out of the air dodge, the B move will come out and you won't get any landing lag.

 

[Big Sean]

This has probably been mentioned before, but has anyone ever messed around with short hop > air dodge > buffered B move? If you short hop and air dodge, you'll land with the air dodge lag, but if you buffer a B move out of the air dodge, the B move will come out and you won't get any landing lag.

Yeap! We call it SHADC or Short Hop Air Dodge Cancel. You can also full hop on to a platform and cancel the B move. Lastly you can laglessly c-stick throw an item after a short hop air dodge, which is useful for throwing toon links bombs back.

 

[Synnett]

Isn't it called flame cancel? I use it from time to time, it's really useful when falling from a platform when you know they are going to dodge the koopa claw/ front tilt. Easy damage and lag on their side

 

[Jerodak]

"Flame canceling" is landing during fire breath to cancel the start-up and was removed since Brawl. SHADC (Short-hop air-dodge cancel) is using any special move, or item toss to cancel the 22 frame lag you normally get from air-dodging into the ground. The option you choose comes out at the same speed, but it has several uses.

 

[Daxter]

The one thing preventing me from maining the king of Miiverse-Bara himself is his weird hitboxes. For the life of me I can't figure them out. Sometimes most of my air and ground tilt moves seem to miss my opponent, even at point blank. I don't just mean the little ones like Kirby. To name random move-examples, my F-Tilt and B-Air seem to pass straight through opponents.

Robin is my main, and I use him for his disjointed punish game. Bowser is pretty disjointed too, but far less likely to actually hit his target in my experience. Does anyone who mains Bowser find this to be a common problem?

EDIT: Oh and one more, important question. Is he viable? You know, due to the nerfs and his reputation and all that jazz.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

Daxter Bowser leans forward with FTilt and Klaw, causing whiffs against opponents that are extremely close (such as when someone rolls into you). In those situations, it may be better to DTilt, Fortress, grab, or jab.

Bowser has been noted by top players as unviable in the current meta. Many Bowser players on this board obviously disagree, attending tournaments and contributing to over-turning such a negative mind-set. That's the best answer I can give you.

 

[Cronoc]

The one thing preventing me from maining the king of Miiverse-Bara himself is his weird hitboxes. For the life of me I can't figure them out. Sometimes most of my air and ground tilt moves seem to miss my opponent, even at point blank. I don't just mean the little ones like Kirby. To name random move-examples, my F-Tilt and B-Air seem to pass straight through opponents.

Robin is my main, and I use him for his disjointed punish game. Bowser is pretty disjointed too, but far less likely to actually hit his target in my experience. Does anyone who mains Bowser find this to be a common problem?

EDIT: Oh and one more, important question. Is he viable? You know, due to the nerfs and his reputation and all that jazz.

Characters can roll into Bowser or otherwise get really close and cause Bowser to whiff jabs, ftilt, utilt and his side b. This is an issue with big characters in Smash 4. For example, DK whiffs his ftilt at point blank also (unless the last patch fixed it, I don't think so). When playing Bowser, whiffing the occasional short range move happens. You can mitigate it by using Fortress if people roll into you, using pivot grabs or just getting out of there.

If you're looking to win tournaments, it depends on how competitive your region is I suppose.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

EDIT: Oh and one more, important question. Is he viable? You know, due to the nerfs and his reputation and all that jazz.

What nerfs? They made our Utilt and Dsmash go from crappy and useless to "well, I guess you COULD get some mileage out of this now". Some people think the Bowsercide glitch instituted in 1.04 is some nerf to his character, but it's the unfortunate result of them doing a shoddy fix to a 3DS specific glitch involving the Flying Man hazard on Magicant. It absolutely sucks, but they did tweak our Flying Slam so that we couldn't be involuntarily taken over the edge more often than not, so the issue was alleviated rather than fixed. Now Bowser mains are expected to use this move to get kills rather than suicide with it, Ganon-style. Hard to argue with a frame 8 command grab that kills opponents at about 80% on the top platform of Battlefield. You'll hear a lot of dissenting arguments and opinions of the move as a whole on these boards, but the moment it stops securing me more stocks than my other moves is the moment I'll be inclined to listen.

As for the question of whether he's viable, you mention you play Robin. I've seen how Robin has improved over the last update, but if you've been playing him before that, you've already suffered a greater struggle than Bowsers have ever needed to face. Now, I'd say both characters are about as equally as scary. Though I don't suspect their MU spread is anything close to comparable besides "sheik is a monster that we can't beat"

 

[BoxedOccaBerrys]

For bowsers custom the dash claw... or is it the slash dash... dash slash... slash dash claw... what is the best thing to do after getting that weird wavedash effect? like follow ups? since ive normally retreat by doing the weird crawl glitch where you can speed up your crawl... or i do down tilt, are there any other good follow ups? or did i do good?

also what are the better customs on bowser?since i use the 1211 set, if 2 is the dash slash slash dash claw... are there any other good customs?

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Side B 3 is Dash Slash. What makes it so great is that when you land, you only suffer 6 frames of landing lag. If the move connects, you can chain it into aerials with little difficulty. The only true combo I found is Dash Slash into Utilt, and that probably only works at low percents. If you're blocked, and you will be blocked a lot, the best case is to end up behind your opponent. An immediate pivot grab upon landing is often the best call, but you can turn around with Bowser Bomb in hopes of breaking their shield, or jab. Dtilt is also great for a myriad of reasons. High damage output, can be done out of super crawl, menaces the opponent's shield health while also being extremely safe on shield when spaced well. If you end up in front of the target, a pivot grab from that side of them could be equally as effective, only this time you have to contend with their shield grab. Many shield grabs are frame 6, Bowser's Pivot grab is frame 11, and add 6 more because you're forced to land. Dash Slash may be like 10 frames safer on shield after the latest patches (homogenized shieldlag and increased shieldstun), but it's not enough to make you totally safe on block. You have to use it enough to get precise spacing distances.

The reason why Dash Slash is blocked so often is that, combined with a short hop, it takes longer than an Fsmash to execute. Once the other guy sees it once, they won't know everything about it, but they'll know enough that it's not a grab and that they should try blocking it. This should be the norm for the rest of the match, so plan on their OoS options. Shield grab, Usmash and Up B, and dodge rolling to escape your followups.

As for other customs on Bowser, Fire Roar (Neutral 3), Flying Fortress (Up B 2), Dash Slam (Side 2) and Turbulent Bomb (Down 2) are all regarded as the worst of the crop. Fire Shot (Neutral 2) used to be extremely pitiful, but is much stronger after the latest patch. The move's damage was increased and the lag Bowser suffers when he stops firing was reduces by 4 frames. Furthermore, the move's "strong hit" had its hitbox size increased, and now the strong hit for the Fireball's flight path was increased in duration. Now 20 of the Fireball's 37 frame duration, instead of 15. Fire Shot isn't going to make a big difference on our tough matchups, but it menaces opponents that have to go in on Bowser from a safer distance. And is particularly good at shutting down options for several long range zoners and slow adversaries like Dedede.

Slip Bomb (Down 3) is the only other custom anybody cares about. It's a faster Bowser Bomb that lacks the rising hit, and instead makes grounded targets trip from a quarter FD distance away. The reason why we like Bomb so much is that it's a Frame 11 move that deals 24% damage and is one of our earliest kill moves. Shield breaking is also handy. Slip Bomb's lack of a rising hit makes it no longer a punish tool. It's more like an alternative to Dair than Bomb. Still getting early kills and shieldbreaks, and being much safer to miss the target if they have the tendency to trip. The trip gives us some protection from them punishing your use of the move from the air. Normal Bomb has no such safety unless you're using it to fall to a ledge. However, they'll find out that all they have to do to avoid the trip is to be airborne as Bowser lands, or continue to hold shield.

 

[AnchorTea]

I need an MU chart for Bowser. Is anyone willing to help a poor Villager main?

 

[Cronoc]

AnchorTea To my knowledge no one has attempted to create a representation of all Bowser's matchups. As for the individual matchup, rest assured it's in Villager's favor. If you're losing the answer is to Villager even harder. Harass with lloyd rockets and slingshots, charge a bowling ball on the ledge when Bowser's off-stage, water the sapling as a counter to Bowser's approach, etc.

There is no reason for Villager to approach in this matchup.

 

[AnchorTea]

AnchorTea To my knowledge no one has attempted to create a representation of all Bowser's matchups. As for the individual matchup, rest assured it's in Villager's favor. If you're losing the answer is to Villager even harder. Harass with lloyd rockets and slingshots, charge a bowling ball on the ledge when Bowser's off-stage, water the sapling as a counter to Bowser's approach, etc.

There is no reason for Villager to approach in this matchup.

Im actually studying each characters MU ratios, but thanks anyways.

 

[Hitman JT]

Here's my attempt at one because why not
I have no Brawler or Swordfighter EXP whatsoever so they're blank
http://smashcompendium.com/matchup-chart/ymcelihkuxasjwvd/

 

[Cronoc]

Here's my attempt at one because why not
I have no Brawler or Swordfighter EXP whatsoever so they're blank
http://smashcompendium.com/matchup-chart/ymcelihkuxasjwvd/

Interesting. I feel like you're exaggerating on how bad some matchups are, but too kind on some others like Ike and Palutena, which I would argue are definitely in their favor. Simply, they have the better throw followups and are difficult to edge guard, while they can edge guard us to death with their counters. Once Bowser loses his air jump offstage he's pretty much screwed unless they drop a counter. Also Ike is a monster now and every hit leads into a 30%+ conversion.

I thought about doing one of these myself when I saw the announcement of the matchup chart on reddit. Maybe I'll do one soon myself, though I'll have to leave off the ones I don't have enough experience with. It'd be interesting to see what other Bowsers feel the matchup spread looks like in general.

 

[B-Black]

What playstyle can fit Bowser efficiently?
Defensive or offensive?

 

[KingKong_ad]

What playstyle can fit Bowser efficiently?
Defensive or offensive?

Tbh it depends on you, your opponnent, the match up you are facing and the part of the match you are. Tbh, a mix of both is generally the way to go.


EDIT: And for the match up chart, I always had a bad taste about them since brawl. I prefer not giving my opinion on the one I have faced so far until Im pretty confortable with them. I just feel some people over exagerated on some of them.

 

[Hitman JT]

Interesting. I feel like you're exaggerating on how bad some matchups are, but too kind on some others like Ike and Palutena, which I would argue are definitely in their favor. Simply, they have the better throw followups and are difficult to edge guard, while they can edge guard us to death with their counters. Once Bowser loses his air jump offstage he's pretty much screwed unless they drop a counter. Also Ike is a monster now and every hit leads into a 30%+ conversion.

I thought about doing one of these myself when I saw the announcement of the matchup chart on reddit. Maybe I'll do one soon myself, though I'll have to leave off the ones I don't have enough experience with. It'd be interesting to see what other Bowsers feel the matchup spread looks like in general.

I haven't faced many Ikes since the update that buffed him into godhood so you're probably right. Which ones do you think I exaggerate though?

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I haven't faced many Ikes since the update that buffed him into godhood so you're probably right. Which ones do you think I exaggerate though?

Lol, nearly everything. But it's hard to put how bad you think a matchup is into a quantifiable number. Not only is it literally just an opinion, there's no place to define the numbers for other people to interpret what they mean. Like, at what number is the verdict "they have a tangible advantage. You will likely lose against the player of equal skill and MU knowledge". For me that's been 60-65. with 70 being "switch characters please". For Bowser, the one 70 is probably ZSS.

And Sonic is not that bad. He can't kill off a throw anymore and Usmash is much weaker. His Usmash by the way, commonly spits out Bowser because of our weight when he has rage. His neutral game is intimidating, but a pivot grab here and an Usmash there, stocks come at a pretty normal rate. Mario is also not that bad - definitely not any scarier than Luigi, even post-nerf. He can't dthrow combo at low percent and has a very hard time killing us.

 

[Hitman JT]

I've done Bowser vs. Sonic enough to know that it's completely worthless. 75-25 might be a little much but I do hate that match-up more than anything else in this game. I've tried everything already and I've given up on it. I also find Mario to be much harder to get away from than Luigi which is my reason for the extra 5 points.

 

[MagiusNecros]

What playstyle can fit Bowser efficiently?
Defensive or offensive?

Passive Aggressive.

Think of Bowser like a very mean badass snapping turtle. And that this turtle snaps and then really bites damn hard when the thing they want to munch on just made the biggest mistake of their life.

 

[Teshie U]

Is there a list somewhere of moves that are actually affected by Bowser's tough guy armor?

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Is there a list somewhere of moves that are actually affected by Bowser's tough guy armor?

Check the tough guy tab of this thread. Tough guy only really affects three matchups in a non-custom setting - Luigi, Ness, and Mega Man.

 

[Duck SMASH!]

So I faced a pretty good Bowser on FG the other day as DK...
He was really good. I was salty af at the time cuz FG, but to his credit he was really good.
He cancelled landing lag with klaw, got the Uthrow - fair string, consistently used fire breath at the right time to punish my approaches or punish attempts, used fortress to force me offstage, baited air dodges and dair dunked me, powershielded a smash and then dropkicked me (that one hurt).
But... most interestingly, he closed out the last stock in one of our games by using Bowser Bomb to cover all of my ledge getup options.
Because DK is huge, even during his roll he will get hit by the bomb. And of course he spaced it to cover getup, attack, and jump. The only two options I could've done were hang on ledge and delay ledge attack, or ledge hop once he landed and punish his endlag.
Of course, it was a HARD read. But it was a VERY good mixup and it sealed the match when I would've giant punched him otherwise.

Do you guys do this every now and then? Reading almost all getup options with ground pound?
I know it's patently unsafe, and you could probably try Usmash at ledge instead for a safer bet, but would you try this as a mixup every once in a while?
I'm going to do it to him if I see him again...

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I used to do that a lot. Use bomb as soon as you see them start moving with a ledge option. No earlier. It won't beat ledge roll, but you'll hit them while they're in endlag from ledge attack. If they did ledge getup, they should only have the time to shield, which we'll break. We'll hit ledge jumpers as well, but they can airdodge or aerial on reaction. Definitely a mixup, but not a read at all. If you bomb to cover ledge options, you have absolutely no idea what they're doing, since the move is input as soon as they you see them choose an action. It's still two out of four choices somewhat covered.

We could do better with Fortress though. Never kills, but at least all four options are covered. Park yourself on the edge, and keep a finger hovered over shield if they let go to aerial you. Then Dair dunk them on the edge as they regrab it without invulnerability. If they ledge roll, you can just follow them with the move itself. You'd think Dsmash is good for this, but it's not guaranteed to hit the one frame of vulnerability that characters have with their ledge options before they can act. Fortress has a rehit rate, Dsmash hits every three frames, which is a gamble. And you can't move with it.