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Social Bowser's Castle

MagiusNecros

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Dunno where to look, so I'll ask...

Where's the list of stages where Bowser goes to SD with Bowserside? Something I want to test out.
BOP

Normal Stage Sudden Death
Final Destination
Delfino Plaza
Castle Siege
Custom Stages (wont be used, but thought it would be nice to know)
Duck Hunt

Normal Stage Bowser Dies First
Battlefield
Town and City
Skyloft
Halberd
Mushroom Kingdom U
Lylat
Town and City
Pilotwings
Wuhu Island
Wooly World
Yoshi's Island
Smashville

Omega Stage Sudden Death
Delfino Plaza
Halberd
Mario Circuit
Mario Circuit (Brawl)
Bridge of Eldin
Pyrosphere
Norfair
Port Town Aero Drive
Wooly World
Yoshi's Island
Great Cave Offensive
Orbital Gate Assault
Mario Galaxy
Palutena's Temple
Skyworld
Garden of Hope
Wii Fit Studio
Gaur Plain
75m
Wrecking Crew
Pilotwings
Wuhu Island
Wily Castle
Smashville
Duck Hunt

Omega Stage Bowser DIes First
Skyloft
Battlefield
Mushroom Kingdom U
Luigi's Mansion
Jungle Hijinks
Hyrule Temple
Lylat Cruise
Kalos Pokemon League
Onett
Coliseum
Castle Seige
Gamer
Town and City
Boxing Ring
Windy Hill Zone
 

a stray cat

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I believe that stage list is out of date. AFAIK, the current legal non-omega stages that you'll go to SD if you Bowsercide from the stage on are:
  • Smashville
  • Final Destination
  • Dreamland
It's also not directly stage-dependent, but height-dependent. Whether or not you die first depends on how high you are from the bottom blastzone when you begin the falling (or rising) portion of the slam. As stages are a constant height from the blastzone, it appears stage-dependent at first. But, try it from the platforms or off-stage or in the air and you may see different results.
 
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LancerStaff

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BOP

Normal Stage Sudden Death
Final Destination
Delfino Plaza
Castle Siege
Custom Stages (wont be used, but thought it would be nice to know)
Duck Hunt

Normal Stage Bowser Dies First
Battlefield
Town and City
Skyloft
Halberd
Mushroom Kingdom U
Lylat
Town and City
Pilotwings
Wuhu Island
Wooly World
Yoshi's Island
Smashville

Omega Stage Sudden Death
Delfino Plaza
Halberd
Mario Circuit
Mario Circuit (Brawl)
Bridge of Eldin
Pyrosphere
Norfair
Port Town Aero Drive
Wooly World
Yoshi's Island
Great Cave Offensive
Orbital Gate Assault
Mario Galaxy
Palutena's Temple
Skyworld
Garden of Hope
Wii Fit Studio
Gaur Plain
75m
Wrecking Crew
Pilotwings
Wuhu Island
Wily Castle
Smashville
Duck Hunt

Omega Stage Bowser DIes First
Skyloft
Battlefield
Mushroom Kingdom U
Luigi's Mansion
Jungle Hijinks
Hyrule Temple
Lylat Cruise
Kalos Pokemon League
Onett
Coliseum
Castle Seige
Gamer
Town and City
Boxing Ring
Windy Hill Zone
Thanks. Just a silly idea of mine... I have a way of measuring stage depth accurately and wanted to see if there was some relation between depth and if Bowser goes to SD. Like if it was an even number of units down Bowser would die first, or if it was odd you'd go to SD.

Doesn't appear to be the case though, since the Omegas you listed don't have any difference in depth from what I see.
 

Zapp Branniglenn

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We found recently that if you grab somebody from the ground on Smashville, it goes to SD. However, by grabbing from the platform or from the air, the verdict seems to be that Bowser dies first. Further testing revealed that FD can also have different verdicts when grabbing from different points of height. But our stage lists are accurate as long as you're considering Bowser grabbing from the ground. The opponent being in the air or on the ground does not seem to make a difference, just Bowser's position. We don't know much more than this.

Doesn't appear to be the case though, since the Omegas you listed don't have any difference in depth from what I see.
As in, the distance between the stage ledge and the bottom boundary right? Do you have some means of testing whether omegas are consistent in this regard? We were at a loss here. I've seen in stage research threads that horizontal boundaries are consistent on Omegas, but two or three have a different vertical (top) boundary that is different by a very minute amount.
 

LancerStaff

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We found recently that if you grab somebody from the ground on Smashville, it goes to SD. However, by grabbing from the platform or from the air, the verdict seems to be that Bowser dies first. Further testing revealed that FD can also have different verdicts when grabbing from different points of height. But our stage lists are accurate as long as you're considering Bowser grabbing from the ground. The opponent being in the air or on the ground does not seem to make a difference, just Bowser's position. We don't know much more than this.



As in, the distance between the stage ledge and the bottom boundary right? Do you have some means of testing whether omegas are consistent in this regard? We were at a loss here. I've seen in stage research threads that horizontal boundaries are consistent on Omegas, but two or three have a different vertical (top) boundary that is different by a very minute amount.
Pit's Fspecial is my yardstick, followed by other actions. In almost any stage it's set up so where if you stand on the stage and dash off with it, you can still recover and make it back. Only exceptions are Skyloft on the default platform and Mushroom Kingdom U in certain transformations from what I've seen... And Reset Bomb Forest on 3DS if you care about that.

I'm collecting some data myself, so it's not exactly done, but I have a few examples.

On many Omegas, basically all you have time for is to jump or you'll be dead like a frame or two afterwards. On the slowest speed you can make out an airdodge before dying. Others you can make out a Nair before dying. (I think... I lost my notes and I don't remember which.)

Then on most legal stages it's lower then that, giving you more time to see a Nair or I believe other moves. Including Smashville, notably.

Then there's the N64 stages, namely Kongo and Dreamland. Dreamland is extremely deep, to the point where you can get a whole Nair off after the Fspecial, but you won't be able to act in time to act again before dying. Most stages if you Fspecial even away from the ledge while holding it you're dead... Here you can Fspecial under the stage and still recover so long as you didn't use any jumps. Kongo is even deeper still, to where you can actually act after a Nair, Pit's laggiest aerial. Won't make it back if you don't reach the cannon though. Speaking of which, the blastzones on Kongo make more sense when compared to the cannon instead of the ledge, so if you Fspecial while level with the cannon you'll barely survive.

Edit: Found another list of depth but it's incomplete. http://smashboards.com/threads/wii-u-stage-blastzone-data.408643/ This one has actual units of measurement though.
 
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MagiusNecros

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There is a big problem I seem to have between versions of dealing with Ganon's FC.

In 3ds it doesn't matter what happens I can always get up attack and be fine.

In Wii U even if I mash the attack button I always seem to get hit like the input will never be fast enough.

What exactly is going on there?
 

Cassius.

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Probably a buffering problem? I have no idea. I usually just tech the move now since I figured out the timing for it 100% of the time.

Oddly enough that was the first time I actually "hit the lab" for something in this game. I don't really count Bowsercide junk as that because it's more so like legitimate detective work as opposed to anything normal LMAO

Also hi guys I've been super quiet, sorry. GRE registration has turned me into a broke and miserable man.
 
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MagiusNecros

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On the same token I play more XIV ARR and LoL then Smash.

Only time I play Smash is in training mode to try and learn new things.

And then figure out the new things just aren't practical.
 

S_B

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I've become quite fond of guarding the ledge by waiting about once Bowser-length away while crouching, just out of get up attack range.

If they use get up attack, you hit them with bomb. If they stand up normally, you can also hit them with bomb (or dtilt if you want to be safer).

Basically, the only safe option they have is to jump, and if you know you've conditioned them to expect this, you can Fair that as well.

The only thing to watch out for is characters with tether recoveries Zairing you, but if you know to expect that, it can be shielded and punished.

Also, I'm loving dtilt more and more: good killing power, great coverage, not too committal.
 
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Cassius.

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I thought we figured all of that out during the 3DS days. What happened?

First Ash is posting old Bowser tech on Twitter and now this lol
 
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Cassius.

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Bowser bombing to the edge as a trumping tool, Bowser's pivot grab...**** like that LOL

I don't have enough heart in me to tell him that we figured that stuff out ages ago.

Plus he never goes on Smashboards so it is what it is.

Also I finally beat Persona Q, on my road to getting ready for P5. I'm not sure how similar it is to EO games. It probably is an extremely watered down version, but I am mildly interested now after being frustrated for so long lol
 
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LIQUID12A

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My college is having a Smash tourney today, I'll try and bring some Bowser destruction there. :]
 

S_B

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Bowser bombing to the edge as a trumping tool
I'm not talking about bombing to the ledge, nor am I calling it "new Bowser tech" (if that was directed at me).

Standing a Bowser-length away from the ledge and bombing isn't going to put you on it, but I did break three shields doing it in online tournaments yesterday.

I love how far Luigi gets launched off the stage when you break his shield... :D
 
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Cassius.

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That specific part you quoted wasn't directed at you. Luminaire asked me what old tech Ash was talking about on Twitter and I told him.

I still meant what I said, though. Your tech that you mentioned is still old. Zigsta mentioned that months ago when he was in that "Bowser Bomb is amazing guys" phase where he was trying to find 901 ways to use it LOL

I'm honestly just being a ****, anyway. Don't mind me. Everyone works at their own pace. It's good that you're figuring out things for yourself. We all need to be on point.

And it's a good reminder for newer players and even older ones who get stuck in their ways. It's very similar to how I keep mentioning SHAD cancels and item toss OS's like I have been for months, because people still forget to use them. Surprisingly, or rather fortunately (Bowser stagnated once we hit 2011, so that's my word choice) we have worked at a really fast pace to develop Bowser, so it's easy to get lost in tech. We've actually found a lot of **** out in under a year, and I'm super happy about it. Thank you, all of you.
 
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Zapp Branniglenn

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Pretty frustrating that we spend quite a bit of time documenting lab results, character tech, and MU discussion when quite a bit of our findings go unseen and unheard of. Some of us spend all this time on the research side of Smash simply because we have a reason or inability to compete in tournaments and show off the fruits of such labor first-hand. Though I don't want to imply that sitting here talking about how to play Bowser optimally is somehow more impressive than being out there proving our points. Ken didn't just sit and tell people about dash dancing and the Ken Combo, he showed people.

Plus, a lot of the information on Bowser play isn't exactly easy to find. I was lucky to know about Bowser's jabs, Bowser Bomb, Pivot Grab, and flying slam-specific tech by browsing the threads on this subforum on my first week. But a month had passed before I noticed that grounded Fortress wasn't invulnerable on startup like previous games.

I also find it amazing that people can find amazing tech like dance trotting and Tech of the Week's everything and it goes unnoticed in competitive play. Like, they went and made visually instructive videos and everything. That Perfect Parry may very well be the future of Smash, and I personally wanted to try out that Slow Run on Bowser.

Also I finally beat Persona Q, on my road to getting ready for P5. I'm not sure how similar it is to EO games. It probably is an extremely watered down version, but I am mildly interested now after being frustrated for so long lol
I don't know how people manage to finish that game. I've logged 60 hours into the game with a lot of that devoted to grinding, and when I reach the final boss, it turns out he's another 20 levels higher than me. And since this game uses the same level -based formula as other Persona games to calculate damage taken and dealt, I have the odds stacked against me until I grind for who knows how long. It's a real drag because I did eventually get invested in the story enough to want to see how it ends.
 
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Cassius.

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Yeah, I suppose we need to do better work on writing down kind of basic information and things that have changed about Bowser. To be quite honest, I've never had to really "search" for tech since I've pretty much been here since Smash 4 popped up, but things do end up either not being used or completetly forgotten.

Example; it took me months to actually implement the turnaround Bomb. Anytime someone would hit the back of my shield I would just shield drop and side B instead, even when I knew it wasn't optimal. Then I tried what Big Sean & others mentioned and boom, stocks ending at 80. Super optimized, because tbqh...I stale the HELL out of Klaw. My style hasn't really changed because I used to do the same stuff in Brawl, but remember how months ago I was ******** about how I couldn't use the move anymore like I used to?

...now what am I doing? LOL

And yeah PQ is realllly weird. There were times where I pretty much wanted to put the game down due to the puzzles, and grinding in that game is really tedious. On top of that, the level threshold to get really good personas (Golden Link, Heroic Gemini, Salome's Kiss skills etc.) is super high. I honestly just did every single sidequest Liz had, and I had a pretty busted party. Naoto with Impure Reach actually breaks the game and I had no idea. If you have someone with the "Link" skills set up, and someone who can keep status effects going, you should be straight. It's just a matter of grinding it out, like you said..and that's not fun. Even with abusing Mahamaon and Mamudoon to speed it up, it's still SUPER repetitive lol

I clocked in at ~80 hours I think, once I beat the Clock God? I got really lucky with the Captor Spider too. I read some real horror stories about that.

And also, personal secret (I read your edit) I've never really watched any of those tech of the week videos because I've always assumed it was probably a more specific application of something that's been known (known to old farts like me) and I realize that's not healthy or even conducive to optimizing our playstyles and our characters. Bowser doesn't have any Smash 4 bull ****, so we need to take any and all universal tech we have. To this day, even though Jero and now you mentioned it, I still haven't seen that perfect parry video. I'll go watch it now and see what I think.

And to add on to that, that's always been the OG way. It's hard to argue that for Ken's example because back in '04 all you really could do was show people. You weren't able to throw followups like that on notes and have someone else run with it or make a video in your stead. People learn things more easily by being shown first. It's hard to read a giant wad of text...but then that plays into other issues. A lot of people don't have the means to upload, or even the time to edit a video. Even I have an elgato and still can't do anything with it because my computer is trash. If I had the money, and time, I would make content very often probably. There's a lot of misinformation, ESPECIALLY about our character out there. I puke every time.

Now we do have people like you who do lab it up all the time, and honestly we totally are blessed to have you and people like you. You guys do good work.
 
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S_B

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Your tech that you mentioned is still old.
Didn't even consider it "tech", really. Just saying I was having good results with it.

Honestly, I don't expect it to work against better opponents, but you can occasionally catch people off guard with it (which describes most of Bowser's toolkit, I suppose...).

Everyone works at their own pace. It's good that you're figuring out things for yourself. We all need to be on point.
This was the first chance I've actually had to sit down in play some smash in a month or more... :\

I've been putting the fundamentals we've discussed here to work with some pretty decent results. Right now, I'm primarily trying to break myself of bad habits, but I'm also learning a new control setup so retraining muscle memory is still a hurdle.

I've been trying to keep Bowser on the ground and working on spot-dodging things, though lag can throw a wrench into that. I have had a few seriously on-point spot-dodges that led to follow-up kills. I fought a dark pit who was fond of using the side-B on me. I baited him into doing that with my back to the ledge, spot-dodged it, then klawed him for a Bowsercide win. :D

While online play is handy for practice, it ultimately winds up feeling hollow when compared to playing with others in person, though...
 

Cassius.

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Do you live in the U.S.? I definitely wouldn't mind playing Wi-Fi with you to see where you're at. It won't match up to tournament experience, but even that can go horribly wrong depending on the person.

I'm having less and less time to focus on this game during non-tournament time due to grad school woes, unfortunately.
 
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S_B

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I'm in New England, but I'm quite confident you'd bury me. :p

I'm still at the point where I'll do something stupid or have a controller flub and cost myself a stock in the process, then scream "WTF AM I DOING?!?".

In training my left index finger to squeeze the trigger on command for the fortress OoS jump, I've found myself accidentally HOLDING the trigger instead of pressing it, resulting in me rolling back and forth like an idiot when I'm trying to slide fortress left or right.

Also, I'm going to be retraining myself to use Y to grab instead of shield+A because of the sheer number of times I've gone for a dash grab and accidentally did an Fsmash instead...

Also also, WHY does the game occasionally do pivot ftilts when I'm trying to pivot grab? I thought it only happened when holding the grab button for too long, but it seems to happen occasionally even when just tapping it. Is this a result of online lag or what? I wish we had the ability to strip the grab button of any functionality EXCEPT for grabbing...

I will say that turning off tap to jump has helped me a TON: no accidental wasting of my jump any longer and the timing for Utilt is much, MUCH more workable with TTJ off. I swore something was wrong with my controller because I could tilt the stick up slightly (without hitting it against the edge of the analogue well), press A and STILL do an Usmash...
 
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Cassius.

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@ S_B S_B you should be fine dude. I live in New York. Add my NNID and we'll play soon.
 

MagiusNecros

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Played Sheik for a spell and it is rather obnoxious what you can do.

And how every needle is 1% but knocks up everyone anyway.
 

UltimaLuminaire

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@ S_B S_B @ Cassius. Cassius.
If it's today within the next 7 hours, I'll also be a punching bag. After that, it's being a punching bag for my friends that I invited to Paragon anyway. Taught them the woes of Sheik and her 1 frame vulnerability.

@ MagiusNecros MagiusNecros Yeah, I was JUST joking with my friends about all sorts of dumb nerfs Sakurai should do and how bogus her options off-stage and against shielding opponents are. They're normally casual players, so they had no idea.
 
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UltimaLuminaire

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We don't talk about Sheik w/ customs, just like we don't talk about Pikachu or Villager w/ customs. Ugh. :urg:
 
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Cassius.

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Yeah, @ UltimaLuminaire UltimaLuminaire add me now. I'm gonna be online in a few minutes.

I'll buy EO once I get more money. Are the stories related? If not, which one should I start with, if not the first?

I'm too busy trying to beat PQ on the P3 side/juggling Devil Survivor and Neptunia rebirth lmao
 
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Zigsta

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Zigsta mentioned that months ago when he was in that "Bowser Bomb is amazing guys" phase where he was trying to find 901 ways to use it LOL
BOWSER BOMB IS AMAZING AND YOU ARE CRAZY IF YOU DON'T THINK SO TOO.
 

Cassius.

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I never said Bowser Bomb was bad, don't put words into my mouth! But you've definitely been trying to find every way to make it reasonable to use in every situation. I love it. You try to create light where it's normally impossible to do so.

You're better than me in that regard; you just give me one move and I'll make everyone sick of it. People are still complaining about Klaw in this game, and I have to tell them that it's REALLY not as bad as it could be. I could be grabbing them from a full Bowser length away.
 
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MrEh

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I'll buy EO once I get more money. Are the stories related? If not, which one should I start with, if not the first?
Stories are unrelated. Etrian 1 and 2 have basically been replaced with Etrian 1 and 2 Untold, which are out for the 3DS. Those are fine installments to start with.

I still think that III is the best game though.
 

Zigsta

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I never said Bowser Bomb was bad, don't put words into my mouth! But you've definitely been trying to find every way to make it reasonable to use in every situation. I love it. You try to create light where it's normally impossible to do so.

You're better than me in that regard; you just give me one move and I'll make everyone sick of it. People are still complaining about Klaw in this game, and I have to tell them that it's REALLY not as bad as it could be. I could be grabbing them from a full Bowser length away.
Don't worry, I'm just messing with you. ;)

Slightly.

#TeamDownB
 
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