Social Bowser's Castle

[UltimaLuminaire]

That sounds like a very youthful thing to say.

 

[Cassius.]

I'll post on that matter more when I get to work in a bit. I'm not the *hugest* Melee fan, and I do, to a lesser extent, exhibit progressive ideals as well (that is what you're aligning yourself with with those posts).

But, take it from someone who's been down the block; this applies to both gaming communities and life, since both involve interaction with people. The way you're going about this...helping people who are stuck in the past and bringing them to light. It's not going to work, and I would go so far as to say that you are exhibiting what is partially wrong with the Smash community as a whole, and why we are looked down upon from the outside, and why we can't get our **** together on the inside.

You cannot change people's decisions, opinions, etc. without them wanting to be changed first. Period. That's a law of life that you may or may not be aware of (I have no idea how old you are, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt). The best thing you can try to do is just appreciate Smash as a whole, and allow people to play whatever they desire. Just let the community grow!

You can think and say whatever you want about Melee, and people may agree with you if they share the same sentiments. Yes, Melee is old, choppy, whatever you think negatively of about the game. Yes, pieces of the Melee community are just about as toxic as some of the kids in the Smash 4 community are. That's not something that's going to change anytime soon. The way that you're going about it will not help the cause. You're really making it seem like you're no better than them. A fan of Melee could say the same thing--that we're deluding ourselves and playing a garbage game. That we should just drop Smash 4 and be absorbed into Melee since that's all that matters.

It comes from both sides, but I implore you to please, please, PLEASE reconsider that mentality that you have. Take this from someone who used to think the exact same way that you did when I was in love with Brawl and it was receiving even worse treatment. That will just break down the bonds that the community has established already (wherever they may be).

I'm surprised that someone with a progressive mentality like yourself would rather increase the divide between the Melee and Smash 4 communities, instead of letting the two co-exist.

I just want you to understand that it comes from both sides. It's almost TOO easy to play the victim card as a Brawl or Smash 4 player. In fact, I would say that throughout the latter half of Brawl's life, we have been on the defensive. But we need to be the better man for those couple of individuals who can't get their act together. Like I said before, people won't change if they don't want to. You can try as hard as you want. All you will be doing is wasting your energy and evolving into the one thing you wanted to get rid of. It's not worth it. Just work towards the ideal future. We may never get it. But don't tarnish what we've already accomplished.

You may still disagree with everything I have typed after reading this. But I'm not going to pursue the matter any further--you're not going to change your ideals if you don't want to. If you believe that what you feel truly is correct, then there's nothing left for me to do.

And, to be honest, it's much, much deeper than what I just posted. But you have to understand this at the basic level at least. What you decide to do with it afterward is up to you.

 

[Xandercosm]

I'll post on that matter more when I get to work in a bit. I'm not the *hugest* Melee fan, and I do, to a lesser extent, exhibit progressive ideals as well (that is what you're aligning yourself with with those posts).

But, take it from someone who's been down the block; this applies to both gaming communities and life, since both involve interaction with people. The way you're going about this...helping people who are stuck in the past and bringing them to light. It's not going to work, and I would go so far as to say that you are exhibiting what is partially wrong with the Smash community as a whole, and why we are looked down upon from the outside, and why we can't get our **** together on the inside.

You cannot change people's decisions, opinions, etc. without them wanting to be changed first. Period. That's a law of life that you may or may not be aware of (I have no idea how old you are, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt). The best thing you can try to do is just appreciate Smash as a whole, and allow people to play whatever they desire. Just let the community grow!

You can think and say whatever you want about Melee, and people may agree with you if they share the same sentiments. Yes, Melee is old, choppy, whatever you think negatively of about the game. Yes, pieces of the Melee community are just about as toxic as some of the kids in the Smash 4 community are. That's not something that's going to change anytime soon. The way that you're going about it will not help the cause. You're really making it seem like you're no better than them. A fan of Melee could say the same thing--that we're deluding ourselves and playing a garbage game. That we should just drop Smash 4 and be absorbed into Melee since that's all that matters.

It comes from both sides, but I implore you to please, please, PLEASE reconsider that mentality that you have. Take this from someone who used to think the exact same way that you did when I was in love with Brawl and it was receiving even worse treatment. That will just break down the bonds that the community has established already (wherever they may be).

I'm surprised that someone with a progressive mentality like yourself would rather increase the divide between the Melee and Smash 4 communities, instead of letting the two co-exist.

I just want you to understand that it comes from both sides. It's almost TOO easy to play the victim card as a Brawl or Smash 4 player. In fact, I would say that throughout the latter half of Brawl's life, we have been on the defensive. But we need to be the better man for those couple of individuals who can't get their act together. Like I said before, people won't change if they don't want to. You can try as hard as you want. All you will be doing is wasting your energy and evolving into the one thing you wanted to get rid of. It's not worth it. Just work towards the ideal future. We may never get it. But don't tarnish what we've already accomplished.

You may still disagree with everything I have typed after reading this. But I'm not going to pursue the matter any further--you're not going to change your ideals if you don't want to. If you believe that what you feel truly is correct, then there's nothing left for me to do.

And, to be honest, it's much, much deeper than what I just posted. But you have to understand this at the basic level at least. What you decide to do with it afterward is up to you.

Haha! You took what I said way too seriously. I was just expressing annoyance. But, yeah, I do always try to be a progressive thinker. The thing is, I never have thought of Smash Bros. as a "community". In fact, I don't like using that term at all about anything relating to video games. Video games are supposed to be a fun diversion for everyone to enjoy as entertainment. I just don't consider that a community. To me its like referring to people who watch Seinfeld as a community. It's just silly. Now, that doesn't mean that I don't like to talk about video games with other people. I don't see anything wrong with that. I just don't see them as a community.

Also, people get WAY too worked up about their opinions about everything. Smash is no exception. But I don't ALWAYS think there's something wrong with that. The whole point of an argument is to use logic to attempt to get the person you're arguing with to see your side of things. Obviously, "attempting" is the best you can do. But it's possible. All the time, I attempt and succeed at getting someone to see and agree with my point of view. And thats the beautiful thing about arguing. I'm not closed to a change of opinion either. That's just how arguments work.

All I was saying is that it's hard for me to watch this this poor man work himself to death making an amazing HD game. And, what does he get? People still playing a 15-year-old game that's 2 versions away from the latest. I'm not saying we should be obligated to play the latest entry in every series. I'm just saying Smash 4 has a million more features, more balanced and interesting gameplay, it just seems a shame to still favor a decrepit, worn (in comparison) version of Smash. I'm just expressing annoyance, not trying to make any "deep" statements. I hope you understand that...

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Bowser's soooooooo underrated in these tier lists.

 

[MrEh]

Bower's honestly not that good to be had.

 

[Hitman JT]

@Uncle Smashcon pools are up bud. And your pool has....well....see for yourself. You can do it though! I BELIEEEVVVEEEE

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

@ Xandercosm I do not think that word means what you think it means.

Ah, good luck to anyone going to Smashcon.

Also, Etrian Odyssey II Untold is upon us! YEAAAAAAAAAH!!!!

 

[Cassius.]

@ Xandercosm It is very difficult to gauge intent online, but regardless, you are completely misunderstanding what I was getting at. Re-read what you first posted on this topic (Melee being 15 y/o garbage). Re-read your second post, which was in response to what Jero posted. Consider how that may sound to the few of us who have responded to you.

Again, gauging intent is impossible. You may mean well. You may post it in an intent to express annoyance and not expect anyone to take you seriously, but how are we supposed to know that? How are we supposed to get that out of what you initially posted? We have common sense, of course, as readers, but consider the context. Zigsta posts about an awful tournament experience with instances of apparent Melee bias. "You don't mean to get upset, but the Melee ordeal gets you worked up", right? Am I still taking you too seriously?

If all you wanted to get at was that you feel annoyed and believe that we are disrespecting Sakurai by regressing to an older game after he put his heart into a new one, then say that. Calling a game 15 y/o garbage, saying that the Melee ordeal gets you worked up and that we need to bring people to the light is nowhere near the same as what you posted in the last paragraph LOL

Please, re-read what I posted again. Word choice is very important. This relates to what comes next:

Your view and understanding of what a community is, and what the word "community" means is wrong. That is why you don't see the Smash community as what it actually is. (Broader example, FGC = fighting game community. You really don't see the FGC, which we are *technically* a part of, as a community?) It doesn't matter what video games are "supposed" to be, or what they are designed with the intent of. Smash and other games have evolved into something greater. This is what happens when you bring two or more people to the table and establish something.

Video games are SUPPOSED to be fun and entertaining, sure. No one would argue that, but you can't just look at what a game is designed to be and just leave that on the table. That's only half of what it is. What about the one person playing the game? The two? The hundred? The (hundred) thousand? These players that compete and interact with each other (there is way more involved than just that)--What do they represent to you?

You may think that I am taking you (way too) seriously, but if that is the case, then you are misreading my intent as well. I'm not trying to have an argument with you, man. I'm just giving you a genuine response because that perspective isn't conducive to building the Smash community. I would have said the exact same thing if you were a fan of Melee instead of Smash 4, because both sides are wrong. I could have just called you wrong, petty and immature (or "youthful" as @ UltimaLuminaire put it loool), but that wouldn't have helped anything.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

@ Cassius. Why did you quote technically?

 

[Cassius.]

I didn't want to say that we are. We definitely are FGC worthy IMO. But depending on who you ask...


;-;

 

[herpyderpherper]

going to my weekly for the first time tonight, wish me luck(tfw gets a sheik first round of winners and losers)

 

[Hitman JT]

@ herpyderpherper That avatar is pure gold

 

[Xandercosm]

@ Xandercosm It is very difficult to gauge intent online, but regardless, you are completely misunderstanding what I was getting at. Re-read what you first posted on this topic (Melee being 15 y/o garbage). Re-read your second post, which was in response to what Jero posted. Consider how that may sound to the few of us who have responded to you.

Again, gauging intent is impossible. You may mean well. You may post it in an intent to express annoyance and not expect anyone to take you seriously, but how are we supposed to know that? How are we supposed to get that out of what you initially posted? We have common sense, of course, as readers, but consider the context. Zigsta posts about an awful tournament experience with instances of apparent Melee bias. "You don't mean to get upset, but the Melee ordeal gets you worked up", right? Am I still taking you too seriously?

If all you wanted to get at was that you feel annoyed and believe that we are disrespecting Sakurai by regressing to an older game after he put his heart into a new one, then say that. Calling a game 15 y/o garbage, saying that the Melee ordeal gets you worked up and that we need to bring people to the light is nowhere near the same as what you posted in the last paragraph LOL

Please, re-read what I posted again. Word choice is very important. This relates to what comes next:

Your view and understanding of what a community is, and what the word "community" means is wrong. That is why you don't see the Smash community as what it actually is. (Broader example, FGC = fighting game community. You really don't see the FGC, which we are *technically* a part of, as a community?) It doesn't matter what video games are "supposed" to be, or what they are designed with the intent of. Smash and other games have evolved into something greater. This is what happens when you bring two or more people to the table and establish something.

Video games are SUPPOSED to be fun and entertaining, sure. No one would argue that, but you can't just look at what a game is designed to be and just leave that on the table. That's only half of what it is. What about the one person playing the game? The two? The hundred? The (hundred) thousand? These players that compete and interact with each other (there is way more involved than just that)--What do they represent to you?

You may think that I am taking you (way too) seriously, but if that is the case, then you are misreading my intent as well. I'm not trying to have an argument with you, man. I'm just giving you a genuine response because that perspective isn't conducive to building the Smash community. I would have said the exact same thing if you were a fan of Melee instead of Smash 4, because both sides are wrong. I could have just called you wrong, petty and immature (or "youthful" as @ UltimaLuminaire put it loool), but that wouldn't have helped anything.

LOL! Dude, your'e the only one who's upset. I'm not trying to start an argument but simply respond to what you said before. Anyway, I honestly can't help but feel like the word "community" used in the context of a video game just screams "get a life". It makes me think of those sad guys in the back room of a comic book store talking about the Dungeons & Dragons"community".

Also, FYI, I meant you to take what I was saying very seriously. But as an opinion, not an argument starter. This is just my personal preference and continuing to argue with me is doing exactly what you were taking issue with 2 posts back. Plus, I do think Melee is garbage in comparison to Smash 4, just so you know. I didn't want you to get confused about that...

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

@ Xandercosm You carry a big weight on your shoulders. I wish you the best out there. Also, please don't bring stigma against hobbies or life-style choice here. This is not the place for that. To further clarify, this is me speaking as a person deeply involved in both video games and tabletop gaming, not as a moderator.

 

[Boozer]

@ Xandercosm Also, Etrian Odyssey II Untold is upon us! YEAAAAAAAAAH!!!!

europe/australia has to wait until next year ;---;

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Bower's honestly not that good to be had.

That's the patch on the boo-boo that doesn't allow Bowser players to move on. /:

 

[herpyderpherper]

So i got destroyed in melee(expected that), then for smash 4 my first opponent was a mac who wasnt approaching well, so i was able to throw him off and edgegaurd him pretty easily,my second was vs a really good diddy who comboed me to like 50 percent off one grab(how should i DI this throw)? So i was sent to losers, the first person i got was a ZSS who did one of 5 moves over and over again predictably, he switched to DK game 2 which i ended with a bowsercide(i was at 2 stocks he was at one so the suicide clause didnt matter) then i fought a sonic/ little mac main, i found ftilt clanking with spindash helps a lot in that mu imo, after starting to do that i started winning, he switched to mac game 2 which he won convincingly, then on game three some weird delfino jank happened and i was able to win because of it, then i fought a samus who would just uair-uair up b me and keep me away with charge shot and missles, i lost to that samus, anyone have any advice for Bowser vs Samus

 

[Xandercosm]

@ Xandercosm You carry a big weight on your shoulders. I wish you the best out there. Also, please don't bring stigma against hobbies or life-style choice here. This is not the place for that. To further clarify, this is me speaking as a person deeply involved in both video games and tabletop gaming, not as a moderator.

I think that I should be allowed to express my own personal opinion anywhere I please, thank you very much. But what do you mean by "a big weight"? I don't understand. And, honestly, I don't really care how deeply involved you are at all. All I care about is responding to what people tell me with me own personal feelings. There shouldn't be some kind of obligatory response expected.

 

[Cassius.]

@ UltimaLuminaire , don't even bother lol

@ herpyderpherper , you have to remember Bowser's options for getting in. You can walk in this MU because Samus can't really afford to throw out grabs, especially once she actually starts taking damage. Any power shielded missiles or ZAir is a chance to punish her lag on those moves.

Short hop airdodge cancels are another good way of closing the gap between you and Samus. If you short hop through a missile, you can use any special move you please and check your opponent's decision making.

If Samus happens to jab you, since her jab 2 doesn't combo, you get a guaranteed Klaw in between that.

There's nothing you can really do about the combos she has on us. Just try to DI as cleanly as you can, and stay grounded.

@ Zigsta usually mentions that Samus' recovery is garbage, so if you have the opportunity to swat her away offstage, do that in moderation (be aware of over extensions)

 

[Zigsta]

Samus is SUPER easy. Like Limit said, her recovery really sucks. It's not very difficult, with practice, to time a runoff fair just as Samus tries to tether to the ledge. At low percents, you can fthrow her offstage and then follow with two fairs, which she can't come back from. After the first fair, Samus only has TWO options she can use where she won't die: airdodge or fair. Both can be baited, so just wait until the animation is over, and then fair.

At low percents, yeah, Samus can do dthrow to upair or fair, depending on how you DI, and if it's upair, she can upair twice to screw attack. For that reason I generally DI away, which makes the upair not possible. I'd rather just take a fair than 2 upairs and an up B.

The biggest issue for Samus in this MU is she has a really hard time killing Bowser if it's not a gimp, charge shot, or fsmash/upsmash. In general, don't fall down on top of Samus. That leaves you open to upair/up B/upsmash, all of which will eventually KO.

Mix up how you deal with approaching Samus. Run in and shield. Emtpy short hop. Empty full hop. Throw in some fire breath. Walk and jab the missiles. Dash attack also goes through missiles and is perfect for popping Samus up.

When Samus is in the air, her floatiness makes it really difficult for her to come back down. This makes Samus players really susceptible to getting their habits read. If you notice the Samus likes to fall down and challenge you, upsmash or uptilt is a godsend.

Speaking of floatiness, upthrow like a mofo in this MU. It's easy to get fair or upair on Samus, even at mid percents. Also you can empty short hop to bait an airdodge and then just fsmash Samus on landing.

 

[Cassius.]

I also want to call to attention a tactic that actually helps against Samus since a lot of her aerial's hit boxes are finicky.

You can actually up-b Samus as she's landing since it tucks in your hurtbox. A lot of her aerial's tend to hit Bowser or taller characters either in the head or near the chest area. Everything except for DAir and MAYBE FAir will cause her to get hit again.

You obviously don't want to choose this option as a punish every time, but if Samus takes to the air, consider that. I've had a ZAir miss me completely once because I ran towards her and just did an up-b.

 

[Xandercosm]

Yeah, Samus is weird. I've been wondering exactly what makes her low tired lately. But, I guess now I know...

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

@Cassius It was worth a shot, if only to tell myself that I didn't do nothing.

@ herpyderpherper Good job getting as far as you did. Zigsta and Cassius pretty much said everything to be said. I'd just like to make sure that you practice prudence in using your double jump. Often, it is better to just land or escape to the ledge instead of wasting that precious double jump. Many a player has drowned in pools purely because they did so needlessly.

 

[herpyderpherper]

a few things i forgot to mention was i got 17th out of about 45 and the diddy i fought ended up winning the tournament

 

[Xandercosm]

a few things i forgot to mention was i got 17th out of about 45 and the diddy i fought ended up winning the tournament

Diddy's still winning?

 

[S_B]

Diddy's still winning?

He's still amazing, just got a buff too.

 

[Jerodak]

Yeah, Diddy's adjustments weren't so bad, he's just not as flowchart anymore

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

Diddy without hoo hah still has a great banana/ground game, ground to air game, and frame data. We will likely continue to see Diddy in tournaments unless he gets a nerf to his frame data or banana. I hope that doesn't happen, because he seems fine where he is now.

 

[S_B]

Diddy without hoo hah still has a great banana/ground game, ground to air game, and frame data. We will likely continue to see Diddy in tournaments unless he gets a nerf to his frame data or banana. I hope that doesn't happen, because he seems fine where he is now.

I actually think Diddy is in a fine spot right now.

He's got a lot of great tools, but he's not ridiculous where he at least has to work for his KOs.

 

[Zigsta]

Diddy's still a great character--he's just not top 5 anymore (and possibly not top 10, depending on who you talk with).

 

[TheGreatShal]

I'm really looking forward to Straight Outta Compton. I'm not a fan of hip hop really aside from Logic and a few others, but the story and history has me intrigued.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Oh a discussion on Samus, the worst character in the game. Fascinating.

That matchup revolves around avoiding her 2 KO moves and living until 300% as she tries desperately to KO you.

Regarding Diddy, he's still strong, but he definitely requires actual thinking to play now. Gone are the days where the only moves he used were Down B, Dthrow and Uair with a sprinkle of Fair. ;(

 

[Zigsta]

I'm really looking forward to Straight Outta Compton. I'm not a fan of hip hop really aside from Logic and a few others, but the story and history has me intrigued.

Agreed! It looks really solid.

 

[S_B]

Oh a discussion on Samus, the worst character in the game. Fascinating.

That matchup revolves around avoiding her 2 KO moves and living until 300% as she tries desperately to KO you.

Regarding Diddy, he's still strong, but he definitely requires actual thinking to play now. Gone are the days where the only moves he used were Down B, Dthrow and Uair with a sprinkle of Fair. ;(

I can't find it now, but someone posted a video of all of Samus' moves that are outright completely inaccurate to their hitboxes. Her Fsmash misses a number of the cast at point blank, for example.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I can't find it now, but someone posted a video of all of Samus' moves that are outright completely inaccurate to their hitboxes. Her Fsmash misses a number of the cast at point blank, for example.

As far as I'm concerned though... Good.

 

[a stray cat]

FYI, I emailed the TBH5 guys to see if I could get clarification on their suicide rules, and it seems like they're going against the grain and always obeying the score screen, with a 3 minute 1 stock tiebreaker game in the case of SD. I tried to get them to change it, but they're sticking with it.

Here's their reasoning, even after explaining how Bowercide works:

Due to the multiple inconsistencies you've listed (although the inhale ones are very rarely ever to come up as they require such specific situations to occur) it makes the most sense for our rule to be used.
I know the Apex rule was just copied from brawl because we have reached out to the Apex staff to confirm this much. We assume CEO just copied the rule from them.

There are two things we want to avoid: having port priority determine a match and/or having sudden death determine a match. As all of these inconsistencies are not a result of port priority we see no reason not to use the winning screen to determine the winner. As stated in the rule if a sudden death were to occur a 1 stock 3 minute tiebreaker will determine the winner. This is the most fair for tournament players and TOs as we do not have to waste any time determining a winner and there will be no judgement calls as to whether or not a player broke out before the end of a move or any other situations that might require determining a result outside of gameplay.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Who are our Top 5

 

[Zigsta]

FYI, I emailed the TBH5 guys to see if I could get clarification on their suicide rules, and it seems like they're going against the grain and always obeying the score screen, with a 3 minute 1 stock tiebreaker game in the case of SD. I tried to get them to change it, but they're sticking with it.

Here's their reasoning, even after explaining how Bowercide works:

That's really dumb.

 

[Jerodak]

@ a stray cat in the meantime just avoid using Bowsercide unless you're a stock ahead vs characters that cannot recover from the blastzone. Hopefully the bug will just get fixed though.

 

[Xandercosm]

Is it a bug? I thought they ruined Bowsercide on purpose in an update cause people were using it too often and it became OP...