Social Bowser's Castle

[KevN くコ:彡]

Yeah, they patched it. It was and still is fun to do, but it does make me feel dirty...sometimes.

 

[Jerodak]

You could be right. To answer your question right away, I don't know if it's truly a bug or not. However if you wanted to know why I choose the "Its' a bug" argument then, due to the lack of real patch notes, much of the reason behind the change is up for speculation. Just looking at the move's design, it looks to be very much built to be used for Bowsercides. That isn't the express use of the move, but just like Ganondorf's side b, it does appear to be built for use in this manner. So it seems kinda strange that it would punish the player for one of the most natural uses of the move. It just doesn't feel good or intuitive at all, it would be like if you used a shield breaking move, hit the shield clean, but the opponent could do an input to make your shield break instead. Those points aside, maybe it's purely wishful thinking on my part, but I'm still willing to believe that Bowsercides will eventually be properly balanced.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

The way I see it, they were just trying to fix the Flying Man glitch on Magicant. And the Bowsercide bug came from that. It just seems illogical for them to intentionally make the move kill Bowser first. And if that is what they wanted, how do you explain the inconsistent verdicts on different stages? You couldn't convince me that for the sake of balance they programmed this move to kill Bowser first on Battlefield, but SD on Final Destination and only half the omega forms. It's a bug. And until they grant us a universal verdict it will continue to be a bug.

 

[TheKingofKoopas]

The circumstances definitely make it seem like a bug, and it probably is, but I feel like it's a bit weird that it hasn't been patched yet. Of course this could just be a VERY hard glitch to fix, but the team working on Smash has REALLY been on top of patching updates. Maybe they could've left it in intentionally?

Also, when the update originally came out, I could've sworn it gave Bowsercide different rules, like it kills a certain player first depending on percentages. I think it might have just been a coincidence when I was testing it out.
EDIT: Reading up on which stages make the Bowsercide go into SD, it was definitely a coincidence on my part. Oops >.>

 

[Scidadle]

I don't mind bowser dying first or whatever, although I do think bowser shouldn't die first, what I do mind is that my opponent can control the move based on the percents, so if I hit them with side-b and they're lower percent last stock and then decide to go offstage then I basically just lose the match. Pretty stupid if you ask me

 

[Xandercosm]

I have to say, it's really annoying. I LOVED Bowsercide. And I was so good at it too. I remember one of the last times I tried to do it before I realized they broke it.

I was, like, playing against kirby or something, and I do a Bowsercide. And I die instantly as we touch the bottom blast zone. But kirby somehow escapes just like the couple frames before he would die, as well, and flies back up to the stage...

That one really got me. Bowser's still a great character, but it does feel like they screwed him over kind of unfairly...

 

[LIQUID12A]

Bowsercide is still viable if you're a stock ahead and your opponent isn't one that recovers very high or has no recovery at all.

 

[S_B]

It's a bug.

There's no game logic reasoning for it to behave differently on different stages, and yet it does.

Right now, they've put a bandaid on a bullet wound (the increased ability to steer the move by Bowser) and they've just never gone back to remove the bullet (that being the original bugging of the move when they fixed the flying man glitch).

The irony here is that giving Bowser more steering ability makes it stupidly easy to Bowsercide people when you have a stock lead (especially in FG) so if they were trying to quell the whining about scrubs losing to Bowsercide, they failed spectacularly.

 

[LIQUID12A]

Off-topic because nice trivia.

 

[S_B]

Off-topic because nice trivia.

I kinda figured he was originally based on the mythological "Kappa":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kappa_(folklore)
...which supposedly were fond of kidnapping people.

 

[Grizzlpaw]

And here I thought he was just a dragon-bear-turtle

 

[Scidadle]

How did the Bowser boyz do at Smashcon?

 

[Jerodak]

I was rooting for an all N.C or an all Bowser top 8.

 

[Scidadle]

All bowser top 8 is dangerous, fear the irrational Sakurai nerfs

 

[Jerodak]

Just out of curiosity, how many character nerfs have been irrational? A few players seem to be deathly scared of patches, but so far I haven't seen anyone get dunked extra hard, or at least not to the point of inviability. Do you know of any off the top of your head?

 

[Scidadle]

The last Diddy nerf was kind of irrational. He was in a good place before that

That's the main one that comes to mind. Also Greninja and Little Mac

 

[Jerodak]

I do remember the mac side b nerf, I completely agree that it was a bit suspect. As for the Greninja nerfs, what exactly happened? I remember some bug fixes and less knock-back on up air. I also remember an up smash nerf, but I also recall hearing a lot of complaints about it being too safe or something? However, it could have just been due to players wanting to complain instead of adapt, I can't say for sure because I didn't face many pre-patch greninja. However, Diddy, how were his adjustments at all irrational?

 

[Scidadle]

Myself and many others I've talked to felt like Diddy was in a good place after his first two nerfs and I feel like the 3rd one was kind of just a slap in the face. Just for the record I'm speaking about this patch http://www.ssbwiki.com/List_of_updates_(SSB4)/1.0.8_changelog

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

As for the Greninja nerfs, what exactly happened?

I remember the Usmash well. It was a move that functioned as a better Forward and Down Smash than his actual Forward and Down Smash. Providing the same coverage plus anti-air. In addition, it had the fastest startup and much less lag than the other two. DACUS was also still in the game at that point, so Usmash was his best approach that didn't involve shurikens, which were also ridiculous before the Wii U release.

As for Diddy, you might say they went a bit overboard, but you can't say Diddy is unplayable when he's still placing exceptionally well in tournaments. If I designed a character around amazing mobility from Side B and a strong focus on using Bananas, and saw all the players fishing for dash grabs as their one approach option, I'd be furious. Diddy had so much untapped potential before they nerfed him.

Overall the patch history of this game has been above average, even if they're going with the super safe "let's just buff everybody that's clearly not top tier" strategy. Thanks to patches, a dozen more characters have actual grab games, and characters like Zelda, Palutena, Shulk, Robin, all three Miis, Donkey Kong, Charizard, Ike, Link, and Marth/Lucina seem to be competitively viable, Not at all easy to play, but you'll be rewarded for the practice and study.

 

[Jerodak]

Interesting, how do you feel about the viability of each of the characters post-patch?

EDIT: @ Zapp Branniglenn Wow, epic ninja! I actually jumped a bit when that text wall popped up.

 

[Hitman JT]

How did the Bowser boyz do at Smashcon?

25th place...

 

[Jerodak]

@ Hitman JT nice work, 25th is a good look.

 

[Xandercosm]

Myself and many others I've talked to felt like Diddy was in a good place after his first two nerfs and I feel like the 3rd one was kind of just a slap in the face. Just for the record I'm speaking about this patch http://www.ssbwiki.com/List_of_updates_(SSB4)/1.0.8_changelog

At least he got buffed in the last patch...

 

[Kooky Koopa]

I played another wacky FFA tournament last night, I think I'm getting more and more into four player smash every day. I managed to tie 3rd out of 85 players alongside, conveniently, another Bowser who played golden Bowser. I know not everyone is a fan of it, but this new tournament format has really grown on me over time.

 

[Xandercosm]

Yeah, 4 player matches are really fun and can teach skills you wouldn't learn otherwise. People shouldn't rule them out.

 

[Zigsta]

Got 17/58 today. Lost to a random Luigi round 1 and then plowed through my next three rounds, beating a SUPER campy Sonic, Ganon, and D3. I then lost to a Roy game 3 because my dash attack came out as a fsmash.

Le fuuuuuuuuuuuuu

 

[Xandercosm]

Honestly, I wish that smash attacks were only activated with the stick and not buy quickly pressing a direction + attack. It would allow for much easier control over tilts and it would just make the game so much less tedious to play. It's the most idiotic design decision in the game... at least, control-wise.

 

[LIQUID12A]

I use the c-stick mainly, though my 3DS days come back to haunt me at times. ):

 

[a stray cat]

Honestly, I wish that smash attacks were only activated with the stick and not buy quickly pressing a direction + attack. It would allow for much easier control over tilts and it would just make the game so much less tedious to play. It's the most idiotic design decision in the game... at least, control-wise.

I've actually been trying to switch my smashes to a+b exclusively, and all tilts/dash attacks to the c-stick (set to attack). I think it's as explicit a control scheme as we're going to get.

Unfortunately, the c-stack set to attack kinda sucks if you want to quickly spam a tilt, but Bowser's tilts aren't really fast enough for that to be a problem. It's also been a difficult switch; old habits are taking a long time to die.

 

[Xandercosm]

Another thing that would be cool is IF THEY ACTUALLY JUST MADE THE CONTROLS GOOD FROM THE BEGINNING! It's so annoying to have to wrangle around with preset controls just to get them to be decent...

 

[Jerodak]

I'd be fine with stick-only smash attacks if it'd be a toggleable option.

 

[Hitman JT]

Bowser made top 32 at a national? What the fuuuuuuuuuu-

Smashcon was a ton of fun. First large Smash event I've been to since 2009. Made me feel all giddy inside when people came up to me like "Hey! You're that awesome Bowser guy from Xanadu!" Even had someone ask me for an autograph lol.

Sucked that wireless controllers were banned from the tournament but it's understandable. Had less than 24 hours to adjust my muscle memory and remember how to use a Gamecube controller. Still made out all right even after making several crucial input errors each match.

In the tournament I was knocked out by Nairo and Mr. E. Nairo made me realize just how ****ing terrible vs. is and Mr. E's spacing with was just stronger than mine. Luckily I didn't run into any s or s because I'm stubborn and went 100% . I'm gonna be training my secondaries harder to be ready for them and now because good God that was bad.

And shoutout to @Uncle for the epic Bowser dittos. Had a ton of fun dude, and it was nice meeting you.

Spoiler

FLYIIIIINNNGGGG SLLLLAAAAAAMMMMMMM

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Sucked that wireless controllers were banned from the tournament but it's understandable. Had less than 24 hours to adjust my muscle memory and remember how to use a Gamecube controller. Still made out all right even after making several crucial input errors each match.

Ugh, is this standard for nationals? And, what's there to stop somebody like me syncing a wii remote?

I'm gonna be training my secondaries harder to be ready for them and now because good God that was bad.

Yeah really. I was surprised when I brought her MU up and people thought it wasn't that bad some months back. My best advice is take her to any stage with as few platforms as possible. You don't need to be the one that doubles her Uair string length. FD all the way.

 

[Zigsta]

Bowser made top 32 at a national? What the fuuuuuuuuuu-

Smashcon was a ton of fun. First large Smash event I've been to since 2009. Made me feel all giddy inside when people came up to me like "Hey! You're that awesome Bowser guy from Xanadu!" Even had someone ask me for an autograph lol.

Sucked that wireless controllers were banned from the tournament but it's understandable. Had less than 24 hours to adjust my muscle memory and remember how to use a Gamecube controller. Still made out all right even after making several crucial input errors each match.

In the tournament I was knocked out by Nairo and Mr. E. Nairo made me realize just how ****ing terrible vs. is and Mr. E's spacing with was just stronger than mine. Luckily I didn't run into any s or s because I'm stubborn and went 100% . I'm gonna be training my secondaries harder to be ready for them and now because good God that was bad.

And shoutout to @Uncle for the epic Bowser dittos. Had a ton of fun dude, and it was nice meeting you.

Spoiler

FLYIIIIINNNGGGG SLLLLAAAAAAMMMMMMM

Dude, you should come to Paragon next month!! Glad you didn't fight any Sheiks--I'm legitimately thinking about going Jigglypuff more in that MU solely because Jigglypuff can weave in and out and duck under needles....

Did you take out any big names?

@ Zapp Branniglenn sadly it's standard at large tournaments that wireless controllers are banned solely since they can interfere with setups.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

@ Zigsta Also, apparently Jiggs' dash attack has auto guard frames. It's kind of funny.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

@ Zapp Branniglenn sadly it's standard at large tournaments that wireless controllers are banned solely since they can interfere with setups.

What a pain. I can understand people forgetting to desync/remove batteries at locals, but at nationals? In situations where you can't find the culprit, you could always exit Smash mode and reenter. The controller has to have a button pressed in order to show up on the character select. Once you're past there, there's no potential for problems.

 

[Xandercosm]

Bowser made top 32 at a national? What the fuuuuuuuuuu-

Smashcon was a ton of fun. First large Smash event I've been to since 2009. Made me feel all giddy inside when people came up to me like "Hey! You're that awesome Bowser guy from Xanadu!" Even had someone ask me for an autograph lol.

Sucked that wireless controllers were banned from the tournament but it's understandable. Had less than 24 hours to adjust my muscle memory and remember how to use a Gamecube controller. Still made out all right even after making several crucial input errors each match.

In the tournament I was knocked out by Nairo and Mr. E. Nairo made me realize just how ****ing terrible vs. is and Mr. E's spacing with was just stronger than mine. Luckily I didn't run into any s or s because I'm stubborn and went 100% . I'm gonna be training my secondaries harder to be ready for them and now because good God that was bad.

And shoutout to @Uncle for the epic Bowser dittos. Had a ton of fun dude, and it was nice meeting you.

Spoiler

FLYIIIIINNNGGGG SLLLLAAAAAAMMMMMMM

God those matchups are so annoying. Especially ZSS...

 

[Big Sean]

What a pain. I can understand people forgetting to desync/remove batteries at locals, but at nationals? In situations where you can't find the culprit, you could always exit Smash mode and reenter. The controller has to have a button pressed in order to show up on the character select. Once you're past there, there's no potential for problems.

Not true. After a game starts, if the controller is still synced, inputs even for gamecube controllers can just go missing or change what they use to do. Like 'R' now jumping instead of shielding or something. It's really weird. Desyncing the controller is often super painful and often results in you just having to restart the wii U from scratch.

 

[Cassius.]

I've had multiple instances in tournament where exiting Smash mode and re-entering did not solve the problem, and the controller was still on the character select screen. The only option at that point was to either hunt the player down or restart the Wii U.

People just forget to turn controllers off or do it incorrectly. And the interference issue.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I've not heard of this interference issue with gamecube controllers. If there exists any evidence of this I'd love to see it.

As for exiting Smash mode, it's working for me as I test it out now. Though I don't own a pro controller to know if there are unique issues on that one. Wii remote based controllers operate the same as they did on the Wii's hardware.

No player should feel comfortable about being held accountable for a crime that they could commit in a tournament. Especially when said crime has both preventative measures and an easy fix. The way I see it, banning players is a lot easier than informing them.