Meta Boss Select! Megaman Matchup Discussion 2.0

[CHOMPY]

Hey guys, the Dark Pit/Pit boards are discussing the Fox MU, so I came here to invite you guys to it.

Please go to our Pit matchup thread below.

http://smashboards.com/threads/batt...t-matchup-discussion-mega-man-ike-ryu.414936/

 

[Psychoace]

... Every time I think of this MU, I usually don't see it ending too well. I see Falcon being one of our worst Mus..

personal ratio goes, 45 to 55 in Falcon's favor.

Wat? 45/55 is your worst mu? Lol

Falcon vs mm is your typical zoner vs zone breaker mu. Whoever controls neutral the best will typically win the mu. While falcon punishes harder, has more combo ko setups, and better ko options megs has the projectile game to frustrate the falcon.

Pellets and metal blade can mess with our edd timing and result in misinputs in shield if the falcon lacks a decent power shield game. Mm is typically going to recover low against falcon unless he has platforms to escape to and this sets falcons great ledge trump game up. Mm out does us in offstage gimps which can always clutch games but he can struggle to ko falcon onstage especially when the falcon plays safe with upair and bair.

Mms should use ducking more like scatt does against fatality to shut his grab game down. Its based on reaction time but duck into whiff grab uptilt is so good.

Falcon prolly benefits the most on platforms so your best bet is fd Or duck hunt if youre confident in your grabs to bthrow but falcons bthrow kos too so be careful. 55/45 falcons favor.

 

[Wreck33]

I feel MM vs Falcon is in MMs favor by a bit, neutral cant be lost and we have a very strong ledge game vs him.

only slightly negative MUs for MM for me is fox, Mew2, Shiek all the other we have significant neutral advantage but still feel its around even just because how we kill and damage output from some chars.

 

[Mythzotick]

I feel MM vs Falcon is in MMs favor by a bit, neutral cant be lost and we have a very strong ledge game vs him.

only slightly negative MUs for MM for me is fox, Mew2, Shiek all the other we have significant neutral advantage but still feel its around even just because how we kill and damage output from some chars.

Having a fantastic neutral is all well and good, but it doesn't mean much if you can't get the kill and last time I checked, you have to do it twice to win a game, at least 4 times to win a set of 3, and at least 6 times to win a set of 5 which is around top 16 or higher at a noteworthy tournament. Some tournaments even do 3 stocks. Luckily for us we can, though we do have a more difficult time taking the stock compared to most of the really good characters.

Me personally, I feel like Fox and Shiek don't just barely win against Mega Man. They both have a clean +1 advantage over him. I can definitely see why Mewtwo may be perceived as a slighty negative mu. If you take Samus and give her a much faster run speed, a grab that doesn't suck, a reflector, a really good fair, and two scary kill throws (b-throw and u-throw), you get Mewtwo with the only downside is that he is a lot lighter than Samus.

I will say though that if Shiek didn't have a projectile that shuts him down, this mu would probably be a lot closer than it currently is.

Now, onto Captain Falcon!

This is just me speaking, but I find to have some similarities to as they both are really fast characters and are combo heavy characters that want to apply as much pressure on you as they possibly can as well as giving Mega Man a bad time. While Captain Falcon is a lot heavier than Fox is, Fox has a lot more attributes to make a mu for Mega Man harder than Captain Falcon has.

For one, Fox has a reflector while Captain Falcon doesn't. Due to this, he has a more frustrating time having to deal with the projectile onslaught that the blue bomber can dish out at him. Another important difference between the two is that Fox has a better pressure and neutral game against Mega Man than Captain Falcon does. Outside of Captain Falcon's fantastic grab game, hardly any of his moves are safe on shield so he kind of has to heavily rely on getting the grab or playing mind grabs as he is one of the few characters in this game who can dash dance like you can in Melee albeit a lot harder to do, but it's still a thing so do keep that in mind. Fox also has more kill setups on and offstage like jab>u-smash or can get 3 hits off of fair>fast fall>footstool=gimp. Captain Falcon doesn't really have that many kill setups against the blue bomber, but d-throw>knee can be a thing depending on di and if you air dodge or not.

Good Captain Falcon players like Fatality will try to keep an eye out if you air dodge and if they guess correctly, you'll be tasting the knee of justice. As others have stated, while extremely underutilized, ducking is important in this mu and is an option that we should use in general as he has a really low crotch.

Trying to get back onto the stage and reset the neutral can be an absolute nightmare at times. It's worth noting that his u-tilt has a spike hitbox and at high percents near the ledge, getting hit by Captain Falcon's d-tilt can launch you pretty far downwards which can potentially end up getting you gimped. His jab limits your ledge options since it covers regular getup, getup attack, and his jump somewhat. Therefore, you're only left with rolling which will probably end up getting you back offstage as he'll be expecting it and can make it happen thanks to his speed.

I find this mu to be in 's favor 55:45 over as his damage output and combo game is a few leagues above Mega Man's is despite having a stronger neutral than Captain Falcon. But, I do think though that as more and more time goes by, this mu will probably end up being even if we can do a better job keeping Captain Falcon out and can capitalize on getting the kill/gimp whenever he is offstage.

 

[Wreck33]

the reflector in the Fox MU is null. its the lazer that hurts coupled with his other kit and speed. And its only when you can pellet in neutral in away that puts you in advantage state due to nair knockback that anyone at all can say anything about MMs MUs. Because if you cant do it alot of MUs become negative.

In this game I play a very good Falcon, only times he gets in is when I make a mistake and try to land nairs even though I did not hit confirm pellets prior or spaced it correctly. Because its friendlies and who cares.

 

[Mega-Spider]

Falcon players look for mistakes, and when you make a mistake, it could mean losing a stock. Like I said, Falcon has an excellent punish game, so you have to be on point at all times. Add his just as great pressure game and this MU can be rough if you don't handle it properly.

 

[Wreck33]

Not so much punish game still on MM to make it his favor imo because rush kills it after 2 juggles. But we all play diffrent MMs and our flowcharts are gonna put MUs differently. For me falcon is ez

 

[Piipp]

Not so much punish game still on MM to make it his favor imo because rush kills it after 2 juggles. But we all play diffrent MMs and our flowcharts are gonna put MUs differently. For me falcon is ez

Falcon is definitely really easy...

Until he gets in. Somebody said earlier how good Captain Falcon's punish game is and I'm sure everyone can attest.
Being on point with Lemons and in neutral is crucial in this MU. Making sure you're keeping him out and racking up damage with lemons, grab combos, etc., is important due to Falcon's punish game and kill power. If we make a big enough mistake for him to get in we take 30% - 50% or potentially lose a stock.

Edgeguarding him is also really good to do because of his mediocre recovery. Using LS, ZDropping MB, and occasional ledge trumping are all good options to edgeguard.

IMO, I think the MU is +1 in our favor because of the fact that Falcon isnt that hard to keep out and is fairly easy to edgeguard. As long as we are winning neutral and racking up damage, we're all right.

 

[Mega-Spider]

Falcon is definitely really easy...

Until he gets in. Somebody said earlier how good Captain Falcon's punish game is and I'm sure everyone can attest.
Being on point with Lemons and in neutral is crucial in this MU. Making sure you're keeping him out and racking up damage with lemons, grab combos, etc., is important due to Falcon's punish game and kill power. If we make a big enough mistake for him to get in we take 30% - 50% or potentially lose a stock.

Edgeguarding him is also really good to do because of his mediocre recovery. Using LS, ZDropping MB, and occasional ledge trumping are all good options to edgeguard.

IMO, I think the MU is +1 in our favor because of the fact that Falcon isnt that hard to keep out and is fairly easy to edgeguard. As long as we are winning neutral and racking up damage, we're all right.

I believe I mentioned Falcon's punish game. I'm not sure about the MU being a +1. Yeah, things go smoothly when we keep him out and we have the advantage off stage, but think about how laggy some of Megs' moves can be. One mistake with a particularly laggy move and like you said, it could potentially lead to us losing a stock. Falcon's ground speed also makes it more difficult to keep him out, especially with his dash grab.

 

[Xavix]

I homestly put thd matchup right at 50/50,as many people seem to underestimate Megas punish abilities. His down throw has good follow ups and the cap is very susceptible to up air strings, although falcon clearly has the edge there. However, mega has great spacing tools like mentioned earlier, so that contributes. Seems pretty even to me, oh well I'm not the best at sm4sh knowledge lol.

 

[Mythzotick]

If there is one thing that I do like about the mu aside from Captain Falcon being vulnerable to getting gimped is that we don't ever have to worry about him throwing out a projectile (except when he catches our metal blade), counter, reflector, or an absorption move at us.

 

[Wreck33]

Ryu doesnt like to recover low against us since he likely will be gimped. Often times they tatsu up high whilst coming closer to the stage. Double jump dair bodies that option.

Villager cant do anything versus Mega Man. Hold these up tilts real quick! @Funkermonster

 

[Sorichuudo]

I agree with 55:45 for .

Mega gets a few % here and there on the neutral, the Captain grabs Mega, he gets a lot more.
As most MUs, we can win the neutral all day, but we lose the damage race fast and being behind a stock against rage Falcon is never a good time.
Saying he is like Fox with no reflector is a bit wrong, i'd say he is like Fox minus the reflector, kill setups and recovery mixup options. Honestly if he had ONE reliable kill setup like any of Fox's, this MU would be a lot worse. But on the matter of kill setups, remember that falling uair> Knee exists, i'm not very sure of the right % however, anyone out there knows it?

Edge-guarding him is not "automatic" as some of you might think, a good Falcon is more than used to his crappy recovery options, and will mix it up well.
MB and LS helps making hell for him to get back onstage tho, so capitalize on that as best as you can.

Now when Falcon is edge-guarding, it gets dangerous. I recall Funkermonster saying this: Mega needs to guess like three times in order to get a kill when edge-guarding Falcon, but if Falcon guesses right ONCE while doing the same, Mega is dead.

Crouching his dash-grab is a godsent, keep that in mind.

Mind your airdodges, especially when near the ledge, or you will be tasting justice.

Again, 55:45 for the Captain, honestly not a terrible MU but not easy nor in our favor.

 

[Mega-Spider]

Okay, so we got some good notes on the Falcon MU. Thank you to everyone who contributed.

Xavix I heavily suggest editing the intro page of this thread because you missed the characters we've been covering for a while. Kirby was the last one you documented, and I suggest you get on that as soon as possible.

Anyone got suggestions for the next discussion? I can personally go with anyone.

 

[Xavix]

Did a quick update to the OP. I think either Toon Link or Villager would be great follow up matchups, as both seem to be zoning characters like Mega.

 

[Mega-Spider]

Did a quick update to the OP. I think either Toon Link or Villager would be great follow up matchups, as both seem to be zoning characters like Mega.

Seeing as how Hyuga got a victory over ScAtt at CEO, I suggest we talk about Toon Link.

 

[JesusMorpheus]

I definitely agree with discussing Toon Link. This MU is much more troublesome than Villager. It's one of the harder MUs to tackle as well if you don't have a set game plan going into fighting Toon Link

 

[Mega-Spider]

I definitely agree with discussing Toon Link. This MU is much more troublesome than Villager. It's one of the harder MUs to tackle as well if you don't have a set game plan going into fighting Toon Link

I honestly think Toon Link is one of Megs' most even MU's. Top 5 Most Even for sure.

 

[JesusMorpheus]

I honestly think Toon Link is one of Megs' most even MU's. Top 5 Most Even for sure.

I think so as well but it can be quite the challenge trying to overcome Tink's bombs since pellets don't blow them up whatsoever. But i do agree on it being very even though

 

[Mega-Spider]

Everyone good with Toon Link? Final call.

 

[CopShowGuy]

Go for it. Though I don't have much experience with really good ones.

 

[Mega-Spider]

Go for it. Though I don't have much experience with really good ones.

Alright. Any info is greatly appreciated.
Xavix I think it's safe to say that we're tackling Toon Link next.

 

[Mythzotick]

I like to think of Toon Link as one of our main rivals in a good way of course.

When I get the chance either later today or sometime in the next 2 days (most likely Wednesday), I'll post my opinions on the Tink match up.

 

[Wreck33]

Hate this MU! So boring, but yeah best way to play is to shield alot and go safe. Stage controll kills Toon Link, when he doesnt have stage behind him stay in maximum pellet range and profit. When of stage go ham on him as well.

 

[Mega-Spider]

is an interesting case. Back in the early days of the meta (we're talking when the game came out), people thought Link was one of Megs' worst MU's, and Toon Link would be even worse. As time went on, that proved to not be the case. While both Links are even, Toon Link is the more difficult of the two, mainly due to being significantly faster than Link on the ground and that his tether grab doesn't have nearly as much cool down as Link's. Toon Link can cover ground faster than you'd think, and his tether grab isn't half bad either. While his grab game is mixed (has a great kill throw but next to nothing off of throws beyond bomb set ups), his projectile game is pretty solid. Arrows aren't nearly as potent as Link's, but I find the bombs to play a slightly larger role than Link's, to the point where Toon Link becomes a bit too reliant on them (much how we are when it comes to the Metal Blade). The Boomerang can also be annoying, but we can clank it just by shooting at it. It doesn't have the pull/push factor Link's Gale Boomerang does, it makes up for it with a slightly stronger damage output.

When it comes to being off stage, Toon Link is a little less vulnerable than Link, but can still be a problem for him. Toon Link's air mobility is better than Link's, and his recovery goes about as high as Link's, so I recommend ledge trumping him or Z-Metal Blade if possible. As for the stage, I don't know about Toon Link. I feel that he benefits from platform stages because he can set up bombs on the platforms, but he also isn't hindered by being on FD. Any ideas on this will be greatly appreciated.

Honestly, this is one of Megs' most even MU's. A solid 50 50 . This MU can be tough due to Toon Link's projectile heavy game, but we excel in the neutral more than he does.

 

[Xavix]

Thanks Mythzotick for beating me out to inform the toon link mains
I believe this matchup is very 50:50, but megas most important tool in this matchup might be his OOS game. Toon link really struggles to deal with this so pellets OOS is even more useful in this matchup (maybe jump pellets for the bonus knockback but toon link has a great punish game for jumping, his aerials are much better than many make them out to be on paper). When TL recovers, trumping becomes a very good option as TL usually wants to use his tether due to how fast it is. If he is forced to use Up b, timing a D-air is the safest and most effective option, but remember that matches are very dynamic so punish as seen fit. This is my two cents on the matchup, very interested to see what the other side has to think about it

 

[Mega-Spider]

Here's something I thought of doing: If possible, we should analyze a top player's (or at least the most skilled) match with a Mega Man player and take notes on what to do and what not to do. Since we're talking about Toon Link:

Regardless about the controversy behind Hyuga at this point, he's still a strong player, and managed to eliminate ScAtt at CEO 2016.

 

[Sorichuudo]

We have to watch out for stuff like the end of game 4: even if Hyuga got a bair or fair out of that situation, it wouldn't kill, but Scatt still airdodged and got an fsmash for that, losing a stock.
I also think that approaching with ftilt is no good against TL, bombs> pellets, so in situations like that when you are behind and TL is throwing stuff to keep you out, get a MB in hand, put up a LS and toss it, then see if you can get in. LS when TL is near you is a terrible idea, but if you have the space to put it up and shoot it, its a big hitbox, and while the damage is pathetic, it eats bombs, boomerang and arrows.

Also when you are at high %, don't roll or jump around. TL loves people jumping around him, so he can just hit with one of his aerials or bomb> bair. When he has a bomb in hand, TL loves to run past you with it and see what you do. Either stay in shield or be sure you can catch it with an attack/trade with MB or something.
I think that staying grounded most of the time is better, first games Scatt managed to win even when he was behind, but on the last ones he kept trying to get past the wall of projectiles by jumping and took a lot of hits for it.

I feel like this MU can be even or 55:45 for TL.

 

[CopShowGuy]

Back in the early days of the meta (we're talking when the game came out), people thought Link was one of Megs' worst MU's, and Toon Link would be even worse.

To be fair, I never thought that and argued hard that Link gains nothing by just standing still.

 

[Mega-Spider]

CopShowGuy I was mocking one of the earliest meta BS, especially since a lot of people believed that.

Sorichuudo That's the thing with Toon Link. You don't want to get too antsy or things won't go well. It's best to play with a cool head with Toon Link, since projectile characters can be overwhelming, even to us.

 

[CopShowGuy]

I was mocking one of the earliest meta BS, especially since a lot of people believed that.

Yeah. Those were the same people that thought Palutena would be broken based on the range of her usmash.

 

[Mythzotick]

is a very tricky character to deal with and the two main reasons why I say that are that you usually want to be in a very specific range away from him and you need to be aware at all times in whatever position he is in.

As far approaching goes, we have to approach Toon Link as he has a better long range game by default as our's is "almost non existent" due to crash bomber and leaf shield being slow and laggy. Tink also has a better up close game than we do as he can rack up damage on us real quick with stuff like u-tilt strings finished off with either an u-smash, fair, or bair although we do have a trump card being mega upper as his close range options aren't super safe and can be punished. That leaves us with playing a mid range game; which is already something that we excel at better than almost every other character in the game and that's how we usually play anyway. But Tink is no slouch when it comes to playing the mid range game when he's got arrows, boomerangs, and bombs as well as having a tether for a grab. Even though Tink has a good mid range game, we usually win the mid range game because lemons beat Tink's arrows and boomerangs.

One of things that makes Tink so problematic in this mu aside from his speed are his bombs. Not only do Tink's bombs beat our lemons (f-tilt is not a good option at all in that situation) as well as ignore our metal blades, but they can setup for combos and even kill confirms and Tink pulling out a bomb has almost no startup. Only when Tink is not in a good position like in the air or offstage is when you can finally setup leaf shield or throw down metal blade as an item as Tink can't do as much. Tink is also one of those characters that doesn't particularly enjoy being above characters as he dair is really punishable and our uair makes it even worse for him.

The conclusion is that I find this match up to be even between and . While Tink has a better combo game and has an easier time killing than us, our projectiles usually beat his and we can live a lot longer than he can.

I remember seeing a comment in the ScAtt vs Hyuga set video on how a match between these two is like a snowball fight, except that the snowballs explode on contact and I can not agree any more with that. If there were an analogy to describe this match up, this would be it. lol

 

[Mega-Spider]

Mythzotick Have you heard from any of the Toon Link's yet? If so, can you post what they said in the thread or have them come over to give their thoughts? It would be greatly appreciated if you did/could let them know.

I think I mentioned this in my assessment on Toon Link, but Tink mains tend to become overly reliant on bombs. They're no doubt his best projectile and one of the reasons why Toon Link's a threat, but they can become so reliant on them that it can become overly predictable on their part. Doesn't help our case when you find out how versatile the bombs can be, especially when they lead into throw set ups.

Also, don't try to air dodge when Toon Link's above you. You want to be lower than him because his D-Air sucks, but his U-Air, especially when sweetspotted, can cost us a stock at higher percentages.

 

[Mythzotick]

Mega-Spider I left a post on their match up thread a few days ago. Unfortunately though, I have not heard anything back from them since. I would imagine that they would feel almost the same way we do, but I don't play Tink so I can't say for sure.

 

[Sorichuudo]

Now that i think about it, did anyone showed up on the Pit boards when they called us XD?

 

[Mega-Spider]

Now that i think about it, did anyone showed up on the Pit boards when they called us XD?

Not that I recall. I don't remember ever covering the Pits. XD
I just want to hear word back from the Toon Link mains. It helps to get their perspective on this, as it in return, helps us.

 

[Sorichuudo]

I meant that the Pit boards called US to their discussion, and i think no one went there hahaha.
We should go see if they are still doing it XD


Anyways, back to TL, i don't know what else to add here. I actually played this MU a bit, but mostly online. He can mix up his recovery quite well, tether helps quite a bit and he can toss a projectile or two on the way back.

Again, i think he has an advantadge simply because of his kill confirms out of bombs: safe, simple and effective.

 

[Mega-Spider]

I meant that the Pit boards called US to their discussion, and i think no one went there hahaha.
We should go see if they are still doing it XD


Anyways, back to TL, i don't know what else to add here. I actually played this MU a bit, but mostly online. He can mix up his recovery quite well, tether helps quite a bit and he can toss a projectile or two on the way back.

Again, i think he has an advantadge simply because of his kill confirms out of bombs: safe, simple and effective.

There's your problem. Online play is not exactly the best way to get MU experience. Yeah, it's easier than actually going out there and finding friends to practice with, but at the cost of what? Input lag, game lag, and depending on whether or not you're playing on For Glory, FD, and only FD. If you're playing on Anther's, then that's fine, but I prefer an environment without the possibility of lag. That's just me, though.

I see what you mean when it comes to the kill confirms, but to have more of an advantage, there needs to be more than just "having kill confirms." Beyond bombs, we beat Toon Link's other projectiles, and some of his attacks are easily punishable when shielded (see F-Smash and D-Air). While having easier kill set ups does help, if you're a projectile heavy character, having the neutral is the real thing to have if you want to win. Toon Link's neutral is better than most of the other projectile based characters, thanks to his bomb spacing and having a tether grab that's not too slow on cool down, but Mega Man excels in spacing naturally because of his play style. I also find Mega Man to be a better edge guarder than Toon Link, as Megs has amazing air acceleration and speed, whereas Toon Link doesn't have that luxury. Though, recover low when it comes to Toon Link. He has a great U-Air, and if sweetspotted, that can take a stock earlier than you'd think.

I have nothing against you (hell, you're probably a better player than I am), but saying that Toon Link has the advantage just because of the kill confirms seems so shortsighted. I'm not saying to not pay attention to the kill confirms, but there's more to having the advantage than just having kill confirms.

 

[Sorichuudo]

Toon Link has more than the kill confirms, you can see in Scatt's matches against Hyuga, it is an even game if both are playing properly.
But watching the match you also see my point: he has an easier time killing, thus, he has an advantadge. He tosses a bomb and doesn't hit/gets shielded, whatever, back to neutral, but if it hits, thats a stock. Of course we have mb> bair and diagonal mb> utilt, but realistically speaking he has an easier time landing his kills.

I don't think its shortsided to say that the MU is 55:45 because of that.

Edit: Also i agree that we edge-guard him better than otherwise, but why are you even considering his Dair?
TL will almost never use that move other than trying to two-frame you on the ledge, or maybe for a yolo landing, but otherwise you wont be shielding/punishing this move cause he wont use it.
Same thing with Fsmash, but he can also cancel the second hit of it if you shield it, and unless he screw up his spacing(his fsmash has very good range) you won't be punishing him with anything worse than a grab. Same as before tho, he wont be tossing this move out unless it is to get you on your landing or to punish a whiffed smash attack.

Mega excels at the neutral and keeping people out, and pellets> boomerang and arrows, but bombs> pellets. We can't just "outzone" him because even if pellets beat two of his projectiles, he still has the bombs. I'm not saying he just wins every projectile war against us either, again, its mostly an even game.

 

[Xavix]

His D-air can land on rush and save tink's life, that makes it way better than any other matchup