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Meta Boss Select! Megaman Matchup Discussion 2.0

This weeks discussion?


  • Total voters
    7
  • Poll closed .

Xavix

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I have no clue about the poll. The only solution i can think of is to make a small thread each time we vote and just have it be the poll
The only real way I think we could get that to work would be be redesigning the matchup thread again to be more like the Mewtwo one, but putting polls on the end of each, and that would probably (Any solutions to this problem?) mean having to re-discuss matchups in that new format, and restarting these discussions once already set us back. We should probably stick to this thread. Making other threads with the sole purpose of voting on matchups seems like it would clutter the forum too.
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The problem the Pits seem to have against us is our mobility compared to theirs. The recovery is so easy and safe for megaman to intercept that we really get an edge simply by throwing them offstage. However fast fallers are combo food for them and Megaman is no exception. I've found the best way to play out this matchup is to stay safe until they create an opening such as a whiffed smash attack to grab them and either Down throw for follow ups/juggling or throw them offstage to get free damage. Pit is still very hard to gimp due to his incredible recovery but we can still pile on tons of free damage while he recovers. I'm thinking 60:4megaman:-40:4pit:/:4darkpit:.
EDIT: Also if he doesn't sweet spot the ledge we can charge F-smash for an easy kill.
 

Peabnut Bubber

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Sorry I'm late. Here's :4megaman: vs :4mario:

Megaman's goal in most MUs is primarily to squeeze the life out of his opponent with oppressive lemon zoning; limiting approach options and conditioning them to make punishable decisions. Opponents typically stop lemon dominance by having a strong approach option that avoids the lemons and is otherwise not easily punishable, an option that beats the lemons head on, and/or having a reliable reflector/absorption move. Mario technically meets all the criteria, but his options that do so can be taken advantage of. Therefore, Megaman is permitted to use lemons in this MU, but with caution and creativity. (Lemons are versatile and don't have to be used only for hardcore zoning. I urge all Megamen to explore the art of lemons.) The main reasons Megaman would not want to pellet in this MU are Mario's agility and ability to convert heavily off of low commitment moves. One minor mistake in spacing could lead to a massive combo from moves that just string seamlessly into each other. HOWEVER, there are two things that help to reverse this imbalance. Firstly, Mario's most common combo starter is Dthrow, but all grab attempts are beaten by good pellet zoning. Secondly, Mario can only get past the pellets via the air, using aerials without disjoints. Megaman can challenge Mario's attempts to punish lemons by spacing disjointed aerials. Mario beats grounded and short hopped lemons with SH RAR Bair, but Megaman can beat that tactic with his own SH RAR Bair or just SH Fair. This is just one example. Other moves Megaman can use to beat Mario's SHs and FHs include but are not limited to: Usmash, Utilt, Uair, and up-angled Metal Blades.

There will come a point where the Mario decides approaching doesn't work. FH Fireballs and Cape define Mario's defense tactics vs Megaman. One Fireball, at face value, trades with one lemon. This seems good for Megaman because he can fire off two more lemons, thus he has a net worth of two lemons, right? Well, that's not always the case. The Fireball comes out in a unique arc, one that Megaman can't cover immediately. Also, if the Fireball was shot from far away and is now bouncing on the ground, you may still not be able to trade a lemon for it due to the bounce, which will then go over the lemons and hit you on the other side. Assuming Mario is above you when he spits that hot fire, you won't be able to trade a pellet for a Fireball, so you are forced to get out of the way somehow or shield the Fireball. Shielding is the natural response, but is probably the worst option. If Mario follows his Fireball, he will land right on top of you. A Fireball, an aerial, and now Mario is right in front of you while you are in shield. This is one of the worst positions Megaman can be in. Rolling wouldn't work either, as rolling away would get you hit by the bouncing Fireball, and rolling towards the ball might get you punished by Mario if he didn't totally follow his Fireball. To prevent situations like these, Megaman needs to anticipate Mario's FHs. For me, there seems to be three ways to get ahead in this situation. First, you can jump above the Fireball and meet Mario in the air and punish him with an aerial of your choice. Second, you can run past the Fireball and end up below Mario, where you can punish him with Usmash or possibly SH Uair or something. Third, the riskiest option, you can stand your ground and challenge the Fireball + aerial approach. You can do this by doing an up-angled Metal Blade that hits Mario, or sweetspot Utilting the Fireball to get invulnerability and hitting Mario at the same time, or even crouching below the Fireball as it bounces off the ground and then punishing Mario afterwards with Dtilt or maybe Utilt. Be creative. And about Cape, I feel enough has been said about it. In short, Cape isn't that good as a reflector vs Megaman and it can be punished.

That's all for tonight. I'll finish the rest tomorrow as I talk about recovery and edgeguarding.
 

ravemaster47

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Pit is a matchup I don't have a lot of experience ce with. But fro. What I have played, most like to stall in the air above you and wait for a punish. U air works great to put a stop to that. Mixing up recoveries is a must as he can edge guard above or below stage. Lemons and item tossed metal blade are great In this matchup imo. We can gimp his recovery pretty well, but he can go in deep off stage so b watch for that. His side be can tear though our projectile Game, bur it's very unsafe on shield so take advantage and bait that out.
 

Megamang

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Don't forget that the Pits have a (mediocre) reflector. It won't come out much vs your zoning against a good Pit, but it can ruin your day when you forget and try some f-smash trap stuff. Don't do it!

Anyways, sword user vs zoner is usually pretty nice. I don't mind the Pits too much, they are fundamental characters with decent buttons all around. People who rely on disjoints usually don't like Pellet storms, and Pit is no exception. He has to figure out a way around them, giving you a nice advantage as he tries. Of course, he has multiple jumps, so don't fall tricks like multi jump tomahawks. If he is positioning in the air, you have an advantage with zoning + being able to move in and shield/powershield, or roll past his landing option and hard punish, if the timing is perfect.

His advantage state is primarily focused on vertical juggling, though he is also pretty good at gimping. His dash attack has a huge disjoint that juts out forward right when he executes the attack; this gives it crazy burst range. Watch out for this move. Because Pit is moving forward, it is very unsafe on shield, although it can even be spaced in this situation to mitigate this slightly. Its still a hard punish if you get a powershield. But, you can't rely on this, because he also has an excellent dashgrab which obviously beats shielding. He can dthrow combo you (DI up and away I think?) into various moves, but just keep your head up and try to land safely using your many options (rush assisted dair/fair/bair is nice, leaf shield, downwards metal blade, landing pellets+ nair hitbox are my go to's). Try not to get dashgrabbed right at the ledge over 100%, Pits have the priviledge of a forward facing kill throw. DI this up and In... and you can survive quite a while, since you are so heavy. He is risking a B-throw in those situations, so a spot dodge can work out.

D-smash is extremely fast and decently powerful. The back hit is also pretty damn safe, and the front one is f5 I believe so... respect him on the ground. His ftilt is ranged and will start killing at later percentages if he is Pit, and if he is Dark Pit then it sets up into Techchases which can be scary due to Electroshock arm.

The pits both have good landing Side B's that can armor thru your attempt to land. This is a common way for them to get kills, if they aren't doing so from dashgrab, juggling, or just raw smashes (they have good smash frame data, so beware), they will try and armor thru your stuff for a cheap and easy kill. Fortunately, the 'arms' will punch a projectile, so a pellet can stop them cold. Just be careful, because they do 'punch' the pellet so there is a hitbox out.


The pits are also pretty adept at gimping. Be aware that they might go off pretty deep with you, and can recover from most anything. Not much can be said here except mix up your recovery, use your up B before your double jump and use the double jump when you can to get away, rising airdodges are always a great thing to use but don't get predictable. While their recovery is huge and directable, it does lack a hitbox and extreme speed. So, after a failed gimp attempt you have a decent chance to get them in an edgeguard sequence. Bair is one of the best for this, dair can get them for coming in low, even fair is nice for the disjoint and range/quickness it does provide.... If they go way over, Uair juggles are always nice.


Pits are fundamental, with some exceptional tools. They have what it takes to get past zoning, but they don't have any 'easy' buttons to just murk your zoning ability so you should be able to contest whatever option they choose. Then, its just a regular smash battle with a zoner, and the smarter/better player should be able to eek out a win.

I'd say the MU is probably close to Even, the Pits don't have polarizing MUs often (unless they camp for free or gimp the character horribly) and I'd say this is no exception. The better player will win. Don't get Eshocked at the edge and die at 70%, your weight is a big friend in this MU.

Stagewise is probably personal preference, know that the Pits usmash covers platforms extremely well so if you end up at a place with platforms, don't land on them too frequently.

And for the love of all that is megaman, don't get your second jump sniped by an arrow. Unless you have already survived way too long, the arrow won't kill you... Just up B first, so you get another one! You can keep up Bing arrow hits to ascend to great heights, just don't let the damn arrow take your double jump. So never panic doublejump after being sent offstage at a bad angle, that is when Pit is going for the hit.

Oh , SDI nair all crazy so they don't get free followups. If I powershield an attempted spacing move such as ftilt, instant dtilt is a nice gap closer that will hit in most situations. But, don't get stupid'ed and powershield one hit of fsmash only to eat another. Please.
 

Mega-Spider

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There isn't much to really say about the Pits if you ask me. They're some of Megs' most even match ups, and while they have a reflector, it's really that not great compared to something like Fox's. They do have some pretty solid combos and damage output, but they have a similar killing issue Megs has. Maybe it's because I wasn't that good with Pit, but when I played him, I noticed that I had a hard time getting a stock off people. I know Megs has this issue too, but that's due to having unsafe kill options. I find the Pits tough to edgeguard, but I feel that's mainly because I try to spike them when I should just try to either Z-Metal Blade or Leaf Shield them. Getting sniped by them's annoying, hence why Megamang Megamang advises not to use the second jump right away and Rush Coil instead.
50/50 if you ask me.
 

Megamang

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Hanging off the ledge -> bair or even hanging off the ledge and dropping blades at the Pits is great fun, and can be repeated a ton. Even if you don't kill them, if you get them out there without any jumps, you can really put some pain on them. But always respect the dair, because of their recovery, a dair at 30% can just be another dair... another dair... then your dairth.


I'd like to know more about Samus, I don't use Mega for that MU but I totally would like too, since it would make the weight difference more negligible.

Kirby... honestly, his trouble approaching + pellets means this should be pretty free. Just don't engage and play his game, just play your game. His feet are intangible on a lot of tilts, and combo the hell out of heavy or fastfalling characters. If you fall on a smash or a hammer, you take a surprising amount of knockback now, and can die early. So be safe, land with pellets to disrupt charging smashes, leaf shield airdodge fade through, etc etc.


Bowser... Is interesting. He has tough guy for pellets early on, which is a huge problem. You can negate this as much as possible by using your buster's hitbox to knock him around, but his aerials will obviously beat that out... but lose to pellets. Just don't get punked standing still shooting in this MU. Air Shooter demolishes his gameplan, he can't really land and it does insane damage on his big body. Triple platform stages are especially good for this, since it makes him have even more trouble landing. There is a great finals somewhere of Scatt Vs a Bowser, that is pretty much required viewing for this discussion because he goes from losing to Bowser to annihilating him as he learned the MU, its really cool to see what he changed.

Spoilers: Uairs onto plats.


So im ready to discuss whomever, but I give a -1 vote to kirby. He isn't that present in tournaments, and we have a sizeable advantage on him anyways.
 

ravemaster47

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I don't have much issues with kirby, I was just tossing names out and just played one. But samus and bowser for sure would be nice or maybe ike.
 

Mega-Spider

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I still feel we need to participate more. Pit's discussion felt rushed, and I feel that we need more input on it.
 

ReRaze

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Idk why I randomly decided to come here but Hi~ xD

If I had to give an input I'd say this MU is pretty even it really does just come down to whoever outplays who.
lemons are annoying (that goes without saying) but the Pit's do have tools to deal with them, nair eats through lemons iirc (although lemons are stronger at the start right? that might beat nair need to double check) if so nair can also be used as a safe landing option against lemons. Megaman's fair and bair do beat this out though.

Pit's dash attack is a godsend in this matchup, its quick enough to close distance and hit megaman even if it clanked with a lemon or something. The difference between Pit and other swordies is that he doesn't have to stick strictly to zoning and spacing, he can rush down megaman which imo is the way he should play this MU. And as Megamang Megamang said we can condition you to shield with dash attack. In regards to dthrow there is no DI option that prevents a followup, If you DI in we can get uair and if you DI away we get a Bair/Fair/Uair/Dair/Usmash. DIing in is best not up and away. DIing away gives us the most options for followups and stage control. If you DI in we can only land uair (which is guaranteed so there is no reason for you to ever try airdodge and get punished harder). This can still lead to juggle situations, especially in Pit's case where a read with an arrow can be used to snipe jump attempts or rush coil attempts afterwards, in these cases Pit will always go for a followup after an arrow but nothing is true, just remember to dodge or jump or something, so just be wary of that. Another fsctor of the neutral is that all our disjoints outrange you so don't try challenge with anything besides, fsmash, dair, lemons, etc. Also how well does megaman do against other campers? Pit's arrows have a faster firing rate than sheik needles or greninjas shurikens and can be curved and shot while moving (full hop arrows that is, also you can't punish aerial or up angled arrows unless you are right in our face).

Just like Megamang said, his primary advantage states are juggling and offstage shenanigans. Also be wary of your shield when Pits have your metal blade, as it can lead to a shield break setup with side b. Don't DI fthrow up and in, just hold straight in, it already launches into the top right corner or close to it (I think there was a vid by beefy smash dudes explaining a similiar scenario). Also be careful when choosing between shield and spotdodge/roll near the ledge when trying to avoid an fthrow or somehting, if used right the electroshock covers all dodge options, and if your spotdodge gets read at the ledge you die at like 70%. You're fine to mess up against Pit though, his upperdash never kills megaman :/

In regards to ftilt, Pit's tipper ftilt is safe and kills near the ledge at around 100%. Dark Pit may lead to tech chase situations but it is not ever safe so always try and punish it. Watchout for hip checks though, it's a good mixup we have with ftilt. Also all our smash attacks are impossible to react to, dsmash is f5, usmash is f6 and fsmash is f10, so try to predict them at kill percents,

Just because Pit's up b isn't fast and doesn't have a hitbox it isn't a free edgeguard as many might think. You won't get the chance to abuse our up b unless we seriously stuff up an edgeguard from down deep but that shouldn't happen with any decent Pit. I'd say bair and fair are your best edgeguarding tools against Pit's up b. Dair can't really be used on reaction most of the time and we have enough jumps to wait it out. Careful with uair offstage, if we see it coming we can reflect it with either side b or down b (iirc uair is one of those wierd projectiles that our side b reflects properly correct me if im wrong though). And a reflected uair results in a spike against you. Megaman is annoying in that he can mess with our side b recovery. Just throw a projectile at it and we will be forced to deflect it and put into a vulnerable state (you have no idea how much it triggers me that side b doesn't reflect properly). On the flip side here are some pointers for when you are getting edge guarded. Don't airdodge arrows offstage it's frame trap, just hope your percent is low enough that the hitstun from the arrow wears off before we can get a followup and airdodge then. If you get spiked don't instantly jump again, look for a safe opprtunity, we often like to spam dair offstage because it is free to throw out as megamang once again said (im surprised you know so much about pit, their not that well known). Our best edgeguarding tool is fast fall fair, it creates a literal wall so just watch out for that. When stuck in a fair string be wary when you airdodge, it is not true but airdodge can lead to an early death. Dair > Fair catches jumps if it is not true, im blabbering now...basically be very wise with your jump, a man without a jump offstage is a dead man against Pit (most of the time).

Pit is pretty momentum based, once he gets an attack he can keep pressing it with a multitude of strings and frame traps but it depends on how well the Pit can read you so mix it up. Don't airdodge all the time after a dash attack, don't always tech away, etc. Oh yeah, and respect bair, it is safe on block, and Bair > Side b can break slightly weakened shields, rolling or spotdodging means you get hit by side b anwyay, best to mixup between jump and roll in.

Word hahaha! do not ever freaking jump right after getting launched. We love that!

Stage wise comes to preference, on stages like T&C and FD we can choose to camp you. Stages with platforms are self explanatory. Lylat gives us wavedashes xP. Whispy in Dreamland can lead to some pretty great mixups for us there such as boosted side b or rapid jab shield break but it's pretty rare.

Do not SDI nair. Nair > Smash attack is a thing but the timing is strict so you SDIing out only makes it easier for us. You probably could SDI nair at low percents though because that's the only time it will combo into other moves by normal means, we wouldn't normally think of going for a smash attack at those percents.

Also hanging off the ledge z-drop metal blade is not the way to go, we can reflect it with side b to give some leniency in recovering, that is, if we somehow lost all our jumps, if we have spare jumps we could just catch it and throw it back. Just stick to bair.

Lately some Pits have been incorporating footstool resets into their play if you get stuck in one, depending on the situation, try to DI the footstool offstage but if that is not possible don't DI to the ledge, Dair > Dair > Bair is true and will kill you on most stages at mid percents.

Also the Pit's may have a mediocre 'reflector' but it doubles as a midair shield if we want to safely get back to the ledge.

Yeah this MU is pretty much, even it really comes down to whoever presses the right buttons.

Sorry this is really messy so excuse errors and stuff, I just wanted to get it out. Nice meeting y'all btw! Hopefully my input helped with the Pit MU. Overall I think it is 50:50, i'd like to say otherwise but I haven't played megaman enough to really decide, he's just as rare as the Pits over here.

Also Megaman Zero > Megaman :)
 
Last edited:

Mega-Spider

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Well, judging by ReRaze ReRaze 's analysis, I feel that we make up for the small number of responses by extensively detailed explanations about how we feel about a MU.
Anyway, as to answer ravemaster47 ravemaster47 's question from earlier, maybe it's because I main this character along with Megs, but I would like to see Kirby discussed at some point. :3
 

Xavix

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I decided to just leave the discussion running but I'll end it today. I like either samus or Kirby for the next one too as I have a friend who is a great Kirby main or my own recent samus I've been using for the past month, so I can put good input on both matchups.
 

Mega-Spider

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I decided to just leave the discussion running but I'll end it today. I like either samus or Kirby for the next one too as I have a friend who is a great Kirby main or my own recent samus I've been using for the past month, so I can put good input on both matchups.
I co-main Kirby, so I have a good amount of advice to give. :3
 

Funkermonster

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I know we're not discussing her but... ScAtt told me something interesting against :4bayonetta: and I put it to work against one in tournament yesterday. https://twitter.com/ScAttMM/status/723941690361450496

I still lost but it was... good to know. He also says that he begins to feel our only truly minus matchups are Pika and Sheik at this point, they've already been discussed but its nice food for thought.

I would personally prefer to discuss a rising mid tier like :4corrinf::4greninja::4tlink::4dk: but if it has to be one of those two, I'd go with Samus. Because of her buffs, it looks to me like she's shaping up to be a bigger threat than Kirby personally, and I wanna see which of us has the better arm cannon :p
 

Mega-Spider

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I know we're not discussing her but... ScAtt told me something interesting against :4bayonetta: and I put it to work against one in tournament yesterday. https://twitter.com/ScAttMM/status/723941690361450496

I still lost but it was... good to know. He also says that he begins to feel our only truly minus matchups are Pika and Sheik at this point, they've already been discussed but its nice food for thought.

I would personally prefer to discuss a rising mid tier like :4corrinf::4greninja::4tlink::4dk: but if it has to be one of those two, I'd go with Samus. Because of her buffs, it looks to me like she's shaping up to be a bigger threat than Kirby personally, and I wanna see which of us has the better arm cannon :p
Somebody better make that a footnote when we discuss Bayonetta. I don't know how long that'll be or if that piece of information will mean anything in the future, but it would be nice to keep that in mind.
Samus is looking more like a threat, but I still feel that she isn't that bad for us. As for Kirby, things only really get hairy if Kirby has our Copy Ability, since it helps his approaching issues he has. That, and Kirby can combo pretty decently.
 

Funkermonster

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Does he mean item tossed or Special tossed?
Forgot to ask, unfortunately. In my aforementioned tournament set yesterday though, I specially tossed my Metal Blades diagonally upwards, and they hit her out of Witch Twist just fine (I think I remember them stopping a few Dive Kicks too). So my guess is that he meant that. On a side note, since I refrained from using Leaf Shield (like ScAtt told me), I also only got hit by witch time once via an Uair. I think these just might make the MU a little easier as time goes on if we can learn to exploit these or some other ways well.

If you have any questions of your own you'd like to ask him though, you probably still could if you have Twitter: https://twitter.com/ScAttMM/status/723324926216822784
 

BugDoctor

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I personally haven't had much trouble with Bayonetta yet. I find our projectile and item game can keep her away super well and prevent any brutal combos from starting up for the most part. Also, when we approach, she'll often Witch Time thinking that we're definitely going to attack, so I usually land a grab instead. That being said, I haven't played against a Bayo who consistently pulls off the death combo either, so I guess I shouldn't talk just yet.

I'm pretty sure it's the special-thrown blade that goes through Heelslide, but I imagine item-thrown shuts it down as well. I can't quite remember at the moment though. Also, charged buster can hit her at the ledge if she misses it (which I find happens pretty frequently), and she's also a pretty easy target for Hard Knuckle when she's coming back to the stage with Afterburner Kick or Witch Twist. I'll save the rest for when we discuss her, but I personally think it's a manageable matchup for MM.

P.S. Since we're sort of discussing it, here's a gif of some weird Leaf Shield/Witch Time hijinx that happened to me a while back, haha! https://gfycat.com/FantasticAstonishingEmperorpenguin
 

Xavix

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Ok so due to school becoming more stressful, I want to set the next two weeks of discussion in advance, so from now until NEXT Sunday we will discuss Kirby, and then from that sunday to the next one we can discuss Samus. I should hopefully be able to put some input into each but with school I'm not certain, which is why I'm setting this now. Schedule should normalize after that, and we go back to sort of voting on discussion.
 

Mega-Spider

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Ooh... :4kirby:! :D

Alright, some of you guys know that I co-main Kirbs along with Megs, so I have a pretty good idea on how this MU is. I've also fought a decent amount of Kirby's, so here's what I have to say:

If there's one thing Kirby has against us, it's damage output. Kirby dishes out solid damage on us, and because Megs is a heavyweight, he's combo food for Kirby. This means that at very low percents, Kirby could use his kick ass F-Throw into D-Air, and can regrab you for another dish of that. Kirby's also great offstage, meaning that if you're predictable with how you recover, Kirby could D-Air you, and depending on how low to the ground you are, this will be enough to end you.

I should also mention Kirby's Copy Ability: The Metal Blade. Do everything you can to make sure he doesn't copy you, because Metal Blade helps Kirby greatly in this MU. It's not Monado Arts or Bonus Fruit levels of usefulness, but it's up there. This helps alleviate Kirby's issue of approaching, and can give him even more combo options. This also gives him Z-Drop Metal Blade, so he can edgeguard that way if he really wanted to. With the Metal Blade, this MU becomes even. However, Kirby has a huge weakness that cripples him: His lack of approach options.

We know that Megs is a master in the neutral department, but Kirby's neutral is not very good and can be extremely risky to a character like Megs. Kirby has a hard time getting in on projectile characters, meaning that if you can keep him out, he's never getting in. His floaty physics does help him DI against some combos, but since it doesn't take much for Kirby to die, it's not a huge issue. Stone is extremely punishable, but us Kirby mains don't throw it out that much (it's kinda like Megs' F-Smash in that sense). Kirby's only projectile, the wave from Final Cutter, is so weak, that it's only used for spacing, and it's not really all that great in that department. Because of his slow air speed, Kirby's prone to edgeguarding, so we usually like to recover low with Final Cutter and if we can, not spend so much time trying to float back on stage because we can spiked pretty easily that way. Kirby's KO options are safer than Megs' for sure, so don't take those feet of his lightly.

Be careful where you take Kirby. Like us, Kirby heavily benefits from stages like Battlefield and Dream Land, even more than we do. Kirby's U-Throw is an excellent kill options on those stages, especially if he manages to land on the top platform. Kirby doesn't do too well on FD, and while he can still work on there, this removes his extremely good U-Throw kill option (it's not nearly as good on FD as it is on platform stages). If you have to counter pick a stage, go to FD.

Overall, this is a 55:45 in Megs' favor, but that's if Kirby doesn't have the Metal Blades on him. Otherwise, it's a 50:50 game.
I hope that this was helpful, and I'll bring in some people from the Kirby forum to discuss the MU with us. It's gonna be fun talking about my favorite main series Smash Bros character. :)
 
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Megamang

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55:45? I'm not one to argue ratios, but it seems like this more than slightly uncomfortable for Kirby. He can't get in, and if he does, he still has to outdamage the **** out of us to kill us. If you know his kill setups, he struggles to get those even more since they aren't exactly fast. He can hit some tilts in neutral, but don't let him dair you! Pivot Ftilt is your best friend, and really ruins his ability to land anywhere near you. Isn't it one of Kirby's worst MUs?


Regardless, your write up was solid. I'd like to add, he struggles to get in. I know you said that, but its worth saying in each post in this MU.

I'd pick smashville, since it makes our b-throw and even f-throw kill earlier, while DI makes it so Kirby's throw % is marginal.
 

Mega-Spider

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55:45? I'm not one to argue ratios, but it seems like this more than slightly uncomfortable for Kirby. He can't get in, and if he does, he still has to outdamage the **** out of us to kill us. If you know his kill setups, he struggles to get those even more since they aren't exactly fast. He can hit some tilts in neutral, but don't let him dair you! Pivot Ftilt is your best friend, and really ruins his ability to land anywhere near you. Isn't it one of Kirby's worst MUs?


Regardless, your write up was solid. I'd like to add, he struggles to get in. I know you said that, but its worth saying in each post in this MU.

I'd pick smashville, since it makes our b-throw and even f-throw kill earlier, while DI makes it so Kirby's throw % is marginal.
Well, the Copy Ability plays a part in that ratio. I'm not very good at coming up with ratios, so if they seem off, I apologize.
 

Asdioh

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Do any of you want to play tomorrow (Monday?) I haven't played a good Megaman in forever, so I don't know what to say about the matchup that isn't like, 6+ months stale. I suppose I'll join the Discord tomorrow.

I will say that Kirby ducks under pellets, crash bomber, and item thrown metal blade. So that's... mildly helpful. But then he has to be wary of Megaman's Dtilt, so if Kirby's playing defensively, he has to guess whether he wants to duck under projectiles, shield Dtilt, or dodge/attack Grab. The intangibility on your Dtilt is a real pain.. same with Cloud's. If it weren't for that, Kirby would be able to Dtilt to stuff approaches semi-reliably. If he's forced to chase you, it's really bad... as it is against just about any character.
 

Mega-Spider

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Does anyone else have anything to say for Kirby? Here's some reminders:
Don't let him copy Metal Blade, as it gives him new combo opportunities and alleviates his approaching issues.
Platform stages benefit him heavily, especially with his buffed U-Throw.
Kirby's not the hardest to edgeguard, so use that to your advantage.
Since he struggles with approaching, keeping Kirby away won't be too hard.
 

Xavix

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I can actually say a few things about kirby after making time to play some friendlies with a kirby main (and my own experience with him back in the day):
  • Kirby has a surprisingly easy time juggling mega with up tilts and up airs, but Rush should be able to escape this.
  • Most conventional combos don't work on Kirby, but U-air spam works better than ever. Use this to your advantage.
  • For kirby mains, finding a way in vs. Mega's walls is key. Mega has a hard time with Kirby's gimping and his pressure on fast fallers makes it easy for Kirby to get in.
  • Mega actually has even more killing problems here, but U-air kills, and like I said earlier, Mega should spam it. This negates many of Kirby's great air options.
Those are some general notes I have for this matchup. I feel like it's pretty even but if I had to put it in someone's favor I would favor Megaman. This is a very interesting and unconventional matchup though, and it really seems like the winner will come down to who knows the matchup better.
 
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Diamond Octobot

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Suicide deaths are a thing, and I think avoiding Ganoncide-ish scenarii is the best thing to do when you are at stock deficit. And maybe when you are even on the stock count too.
 

ravemaster47

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Samus is a weird one for me. I haven't played many since last patch, but her shield break set ups are scary. Zair is an annoying spacing tool i.tend to get snagged in a lot. Her up air strings are annoying, but usually easily read. Our metal blade goes under her super missile and leaf shield just. Runs through it when thrown. I actually use rush randomly if she has a charge shot saved up. If I feel she's about to punish my landing or lemons, I'll use him to avoid the blast .

Few things I love about this matchup tho is how much u air I can spam on her. Lemons are pretty good at disrupting her charhing. They can cancel out her missiles as well.

If she screw attacks facing sway from the stage, it's a free hard knuckle. A lot of her kills in my experience are from back airs or a well timed charge shot. Her dair isn't that scary to me, usually because I have rush under me when she tries.

Please take my assessment with a grain if salt as I've only played a few decent samus.

I put it 55:45 :megaman: or even 50:50
 

CopShowGuy

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Keeping in her face with lemons when she has a charge shot ready can work as well. There are good odds you'll just knock her out of firing it if you can keep the pressure on.
 

Mythzotick

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Even though you guys already did :4yoshi:, I still have a lot of insight on the mu as I play both characters a lot and gave out my current thoughts on it in another Mega Man thread. If anyone is still interested in the mu and wants my opinion on it, I'll leave the link right here.
http://smashboards.com/threads/bubble-mans-jacuzzi-mega-man-social-thread.338035/page-71

Hopefully I helped anyone out that is still having problems with Yoshi. If not, I apologize. Now, onto :4samus:.

:4samus: is an interesting case for me right now as I haven't faced a lot of Samus since the latest patch. As I gave out my thoughts on Yoshi in the other thread, I also talked about Samus. However, I didn't elaborate on it as much as I should have and since this week is about her, I'll try and do that.

Like Yoshi, Samus is both heavy and floaty. Meaning that she won't get comboed as much and she'll live a lot longer than most other characters will to the side. But, since she is floaty, she will die earlier on top of the screen than some lighter characters that are fast fallers will including us. We should use this to our advantage and go for mb setups leading into mega upper along with abusing air shooter and spark shot to a lesser extent since it's still a punishable move. Lemons destroy all of her projectiles except for a semi-charged shot+ and since she isn't a fast character along with a bunch of horrible flaws with the combination of a somewhat bad grab, unsafe footsie and approach options, and having probably the worst roll in the game, her options become very limited. What does keep her in the game though, is that she can rack a lot of damage on us since she can combo us hard and anytime we are far enough away from her, she gets plenty of time to get a fully charged shot. Since she only has two threatening aerial moves and having possibly the 2nd worst set of smash attacks in the game, she hardly has any reliable kill options. When she does get a full charge shot, that's when you start to really respect her even though you're always respecting her by constantly getting in her face giving her no time to breathe. Overall, I say this mu is 60:40 for us, but if the recent buffs she got are really significant in this particular mu, then it might be 55:45 instead. I just don't see what she has that makes this mu even or worse for us.

EDIT: I'm actually now curious on what you guys think on the buffs she got last patch and how much it changes things.
 
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Mythzotick

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Real quick, I just want to bring this to everyone's attention. Whenever you plan on covering the :4fox: mu, it should be at a time when a lot of us aren't so busy so we can all express our opinions and experiences against this particular character. At this point, Fox is becoming more and more of a threat and just "might" be our biggest obstacle as @ScAtt77 seems to struggle against Fox. Either that, or Larry just seems to have a knack on how to play against him. I know it's only one player, but he is our best player and is also our only real notable player in the States atm. When we do get a chance to talk about Fox, we should be more active in this future topic than in previous mu discussions. This may very well be an overreaction and he won't be a potential gate keeper, but it certainly doesn't hurt to be aware and garner a lot of theory crafting.
 
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Wreck33

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Normally I don't struggle against fox at all but the opposite. However this game is balanced and its more who is behind the controller.
Scatt was doing fine in the MU he got wrecked every time he was hanging on the ledge by Larrys dtilts and up tilts covering all of Scatt's options and then combing of them. Fox is so fast so rolling on to stage gets punished on reaction. Since fox is so fast we sometimes retreat to the ledge in this MU and Larry showed us that we are at a big disadvantage on the ledge vs Fox. If we can find a solution for coming back to stage with a higher success rate from the ledge then we don't have a problem. On the stage our weight and neutral wins the MU for us.
 

Mythzotick

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Even though our neutral is bonkers and our weight can kind of help us depending on the situation, Fox still wins the mu imo. Most Fox's out there aren't as good as Larry though. His jab, tilts, dash attack, nair, dair, uair, u-smash, and d-smash can wreck us hard if we lose control of the neutral and his throws can put us at a bad position.
 

Wreck33

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Fox wins the MU slightly agree but I have never played a good one so I don't know. Never encountered a fox that beats me online ever. However I also see that Larry plays a billion times better then those foxes. I believe if Scatt finds a solution to the ledge get up problem vs Larry's fox they will start to split sets instead being favorable for Larry at this point in time. IMO
 

Diamond Octobot

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Just let me recap our options from the ledge :
  • Normal get-up
  • Jump
  • Attack
  • Roll
  • Fall from ledge

If you choose the last option, you can either use Rush or go for a DJ Nair/Fair.

That's something to remember :p
 
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