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Meta Boss Select! Megaman Matchup Discussion 2.0

This weeks discussion?


  • Total voters
    7
  • Poll closed .

GHNeko

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First of all: Are you saying Mega Man is not viable right now? I mean, considering Scatt's decent results and the fact the characters is not really "checked" by any other (Maaaaaybe Mario to an extended, and even then having more damage against Mario is not going to cause anything) makes me think it doesn't feel quite right to consider him "not viable".

Do you probably need a second? Yes, that's probably true, but in this game there's hardly characters that are totally viable without the need of a second, even some of the top tiers are in need of them(Rosa probably needs a second against Cloud for example).

Second: If Mega Man did more damage, that would not make him viable, that would make him more polarizing. And you do not want that for the health of the game.

Remember: Damage means both Knockback AND hitstun are increased. Do you want to deal against lemons that you can't shield if you eat the first one? A frame 4 BAir that kills even earlier and might possibly combo into itself? UAirs that do some disgusting damage with you unable to escape from them?

Even if somehow he remains the same against some of the top tiers, imagine being a low tier character against him. Imagine MUs like Luigi (Which is already a pain for him) being even harder because all the Mega Man player has to do is press Jab 3 times and he gets not only some space, but that also do a decent ammount of damage while being EXTREMELY safe. Not fun. At all. You do not want that.

I feel like right now, Mega Man is in an almost perfect balance spot. The risk-reward ratio and skill required for him is a pretty good example of balance, since while he is unique, is not unique enough to shut down everyone else, nor is he way too differents that somehow makes him useless.

And he feels exactly like playing a Mega Man game. Some thinking, some shooting, some risk and some reward. Just how I like my MM games.

The only thing that maaaaybe he's undertuned are Smashes, but it's something that I can honestly deal with.
_________________________________________________________________________________
I'll post my thoughts in the Cloud MU later, I tend to practice with some Cloud users so it might be useful.
I dont think Megaman is Viable at a national level.

1 player does not make a character viable because you can write off that player as an outlier. Hax$ while he played Falcon placed top 16/8 for sooo many years but no Falcon has ever won a national, or even a regional iirc. You can generally only call an under-represented character viable when that character is already considered to be a top tier, which Megaman is not.

For example, It's not uncommon to hear Melee Falcon being called unviable at a national level despite players like S2J, Wizzrobe, n0ne, and others doing very well with him at a statewide and regional level. I dont even think he's viable on a regional level. Falcon's in melee just seem to cap out at top 8 when it comes to regional and above.

Yes I'm aware of how damage is tied to histun, shieldstun, and indirectly knockback. I worked on Project M. I know the consequences and implications of my statements. I'd appreciate it if you didnt strawman me lol.

I didnt say that he needs a damage buff across his whole moveset so please don't imply that is what I said. I only said he needed more damage. not more damage EVERYWHERE; because that would be really stupid as we both know this.

Not to make this more off-topic but i agree that Mega NEEDS a higher damage output in some of his moves, or at least less lag on some of them. Pellets that you can't shield really is not something that anyone wants, but at least fair/bair that you can use more safely, or more kill power in his smashes to make up for how laggy they are wouldn't make him polarazing, imo.

Back to Cloud, so: STAGES
JesusMorpheus JesusMorpheus Why should we consider taking him to T&C ?
I thought that the lower ceiling would benefit him way more than us, and the ocasional plataforms could help him run and charge limit just as well as BF. What is in it for us on that stage?

Wouldn't BF be good for us considering the bigger blastzones= we living longer? Most stocks we will take from Cloud will be from an edge-guard rather than outright killing him, so the bigger blastzones wouldn't make much difference against us.

GHNeko GHNeko , do you think Cloud has any stage that he absolutely does not want to go against Mega?
Final D / Omega Stages are his least favorable stages, but considering that it'll be banned almost every time and Cloud doesnt really have "bad stages", than I'd personally go SV or Delfino or TnC.

Considering Cloud can out camp Sonic on DH; i seriously do not recommend DH against Cloud unless you feel really confident and comfortable with dealing with Limit Camping. If you can reliably deal with Limit Camping on DH against an individual Cloud then go to DH, but i'd do it after determining if the Cloud can effectively limit camp because its not something that people want cloud to do, let alone LET him do.

And yeah, more damage on like pellets (specially 0.5% damage increase; nothing more lol), fair, Usmash, Dair, dtilt, and maybe Crash bomber would be nice. Possibly Leaf shield so that he gets more milage out of resets and grabs; but nothing more than that because that'd skew him too much imo.
 
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Diamond Octobot

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I wish I was good, that way I could give some real MU insight...

Anyway, Cloud is just a hard MU for me (I don't want to say "us") but he isn't unwinnable.
Of course, he has Limit Charge, which is obviously going to get full charged at last like once or twice in a match, and it's half of our problems. we already have some slight trouble against fast characters, and getting fully Limed Charged makes him even faster, making his already good aerials even better XD
His specials can be blocked easily with the Mega Buster, but as said earlier, Limit Breaks can just wreck us if we aren't careful... I just don't know if Cloud has any Throw follow-ups when in limit break, but he can still deal heavy with his specials...

About his approaches, coming from the ground is obviously a no-go, as he would only receive a salve of lemons. And given his auto-canceling aerials, he is mostly going to come from the air. You can try to challenge him with Fair / Bair, but make sure to keep your spacing tight and to not overcommit, or you'll get punished (and probably comboed). A thing I like to do is just to go for Pivot FSmashes when I feel an aerial approach coming, but it isn't safe...

On the other side, while we can try to wall Cloud with everything we have, we still are combo food, so Utilt / USmash / Uair can still hurt as heck. Landing as far as possible from Cloud and shooting at him can provide relative security, but it can only do so much. He doesn't give a crap about our specials, but Leaf Shield can still clank with some of his moves and give you a chance to grab him (even if he tries to attack you while it's active, but no one should do it...)

For stages, I can say that giving him platforms to work with can be a relly bad idea, as his Up attacks can just hit through them. What was said earlier pretty much sums up what I could possibly have to say... But Lylat could still be a fun pick XD

Overall, it can just be a very, very passive MU. Just play the turtle and play slowly, pestering him with everything you've got (as if any matchup was different...). Lemons have to be your main source of damage : Metal Blade can be catched pretty easily, Crash Bomb is kinda risky and our smashes are pretty slow.
That would probably be a +1 for Cloud imo.
 

CopShowGuy

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I actually don't mind taking Cloud to stages with platforms. If he retreats to fill his limit, I can just harass him with Air Shooter.
 

Xavix

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Great Cloud discussion this week! Putting a poll up now for this weeks discussion. It's between some relevant top tiers, being Mario, Bayonetta, and ZSS.
 

Drarky

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I prefer leaving Bayo for later, since the discussions about her have been pretty heated anywhere else.

ZSS is probably what I would like to talk about now, considering last patch brought some changes and stuff.
 

Mega-Spider

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So we have to choose between an unfair matchup that people use to get a cheap win on us (:4mario:), one of the best characters in the game that can be a pain to deal with but isn't unfair (:4zss:), and a character that will get you scalding looks and comments because of how crazy she can be (:4bayonetta:).
Hmm... I partially agree with Drarky Drarky about saving Bayonetta for later because right now, playing Bayonetta is like how Sheik was before her nerf (which has generated a LOT of heat), but at the same time, she's a current meta threat much like Cloud is, and to a greater degree.
Zero Suit doesn't get under my skin too much, but I still see her as a character worth talking about. As for Mario, I apologize for my comment about people using him to get a cheap victory on us, but every time I've played people on the cesspool that is For Glory, every time I beat someone as Mega Man, they would go straight to Mario, to which I either barely win or outright lose, and they taunt, as if to say "No skill triumphs over skill." I vote for Zero Suit.
 

Wreck33

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That Mario problem that people encounter is something I don't understand. I always go "Ah Mario this will be a breeze" on for glory. Don't think I ever played vs a Mario and felt that Mega<Mario.
 

JesusMorpheus

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I'm not against any of the characters listed here. The only one i wouldn't really be able to contribute towards is ZSS as i have no experience against her, so all i would have is theorycraft on my end if she is discussed
 

CopShowGuy

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That Mario problem that people encounter is something I don't understand. I always go "Ah Mario this will be a breeze" on for glory. Don't think I ever played vs a Mario and felt that Mega<Mario.
You don't always get quality on For Glory. Or, barring that, you don't get a good play environment (dang input delays). Mario is a jerk to Mega Man with how safe he is with all his moves.
 

JesusMorpheus

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You don't always get quality on For Glory. Or, barring that, you don't get a good play environment (dang input delays). Mario is a jerk to Mega Man with how safe he is with all his moves.
I always used to have a problem with Mario, but once you learn that player's habits and shoot a lot to force them to cape, you can just bait it out and get even more damage. Only problem are his combos and the fact his up b just goes through hard knuckle if mistimed. I like the MU a lot to be honest, even if we lose by a little bit
 

Wreck33

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Yes you the quality on for glory is not impressive of course, But I have 12000 games and you would think that you played at least 1 good Mario. So far never went negative vs a Mario. Atleast not in my last 4000 games. Offline I haven't played a great one. I bet the likes of Ally would body me. But thats more in player skill then MU.
 
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Red Shirt KRT

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Mario is about 50-50 maybe slightly in his favor 55-45 because of his awesome frame data and good smashes and combo game.

We must be very patient in this matchup and be careful one laggy whiff and it is 60% or a stock.
 

Wreck33

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Yes Mario can land big damaging combos in early procents but after that he can't do much. His good smashes aren't really effective versus Mega Man. Don't ever challenge him coming down, in neutral you don't get hit by his fsmash, upsmash or downsmash unless you make a mistake. Shield his frame traps on shield. Empty short hops into bair short hops is what you need to be wary of. Once you are its no problem. I normally can move around him taking no damage and just rack up that damage.
 
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BugDoctor

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When it comes to Mario matches, it really depends on the type of Mario you're going against. I find the most irritating Mario players to be the ones that weave through your zoning and get damage any way possible. The ones that focus on trying to out-zone you seem to be much easier to deal with.

This is the matchup in which you really need to focus on keeping the opponent out, zoning as much as possible. Use pellets frequently, but try not to get predictable with them and make sure to mix up as much as you can. Often, Marios will try to jump in at you since a direct approach is tough for them. Tossing Metal Blades upward at an angle can stifle this approach, or make them airdodge for a punish. You can also mess their approach up with an Air Shooter if they're not expecting it, but be careful or it'll get Caped back at you and do a decent amount of damage. Often when Mario approaches using a full hop, he'll use down air (at least in my experience)...if they mess this up there's a bit of lag when they hit the ground that you can punish. Alternatively, you can do a quick pivot grab and usually snag them out of the attack.

If I use F-Smash in this matchup, it's extremely rarely, never charged, and after the opponent has been conditioned to not expect it. Focus more on movement and pellets rather than going for strong attacks as Mario is too quick for them.

If you see Mario use a Smash attack and you WANT to go in for a grab punish or something, back off instead. Mario's quick frame data makes it extremely hard to punish him on Smash attacks for Mega Man, particularly with our low run speed, so don't go in for anything. It's hard to remember at the time, but basically use that time to gain some ground and re-establish neutral.

Mario will often try to reflect blades back at you, but it's not much to worry about since you can just shoot them out of the air. Same goes for Crash Bombs.

When Mario is off-stage...I'm never sure what to do. Sometimes I go out for the gimp, which is with Slash Claw in this matchup since you do not want to get any closer to Mario than you have to. Fair is OK, but I find it risky and sometimes leads to a gutsy Mario landing a F-air if it's not timed perfectly. I don't go for N-air gimps either, due to the fact that you need to get close. Leafstooling doesn't seem to be an option close to the stage once he begins his Up-B, so if you're going to go for it you have to move out pretty far. Instead, I will z-drop blades, throw blades to try and catch Mario, or get a Leaf Shield up while I'm waiting on stage. In some cases, Mario being hit by Leaf Shield will result in an input error, causing him to Up-B the wrong way and die...and in others, he will Up+B with the wrong timing and won't grab the ledge, leading to further punishment such as a grab or a Spark Shock. You could jump out and throw a Crash Bomb on the corner of the stage too if you want, to force certain options out of your opponent...just make sure you have time to get it set up.

If you land a grab on Mario, go for safe options. D-throw -> Fair is always good, but you can sometimes get D-throw > Bair > Bair as well which racks up around 30 damage. You can also throw him upwards and set up for Air Shooters, but just be wary of his ability to reflect them.

If Mario lands a grab on you...you're gonna eat a lot of damage and possibly lose a stock. He can dthrow > uptilt us for a while (usually 3-5 uptilts) at low percent, and then start throwing in upair strings which Mega Man falls into pretty easily. DI out of it as best you can (I usually DI up and away) and bust out Rush as soon as possible to get distance and hopefully get back to neutral game. Alternatively, if you are quick enough and at super low percent, you can DI down toward the ground. In this case, Mario will usually land 1-2 uptilts and then you'll get to the ground and shield...and in true Mario fashion, he will spam 1 or 2 more uptilts. You can punish this with a grab of your own and hopefully land some damage, or you can also throw out a Mega Upper. The Upper is mostly for mindgames I find. If a Mario knows that you can potentially land a kill move in between their uptilts, they might not go for that option as much.

I never go for Z1gma Upper in this matchup because it seems like Mario's too quick to land it on in a lot of cases...and even if you get the blade out, he can reflect it very quickly. A blade directly down might work better since he often needs to be up close. If they shield it, be wary of a grab and back off instead, because if Mario lands a grab on you out of shield, you're in a bad way.

Mario can put himself out there for a gimp on Mega Man pretty easily since he's got good jumping power and air speed. Watch your opponent carefully when he does this. Often, Mario will go for bairs or nairs to gimp us; we can outrange both of these with our Slash Claw. When you're coming back to the stage, try turning around by shooting a Crash Bomb backwards, which will set you up to challenge Mario's Bair with your own. Also, if you land a Crash Bomb on Mario while he's waiting to gimp you, it will force the player to stop and react to avoid damage. Take this time to get up safely. Another option is to equip yourself with a blade on the way back to the stage. When you're falling at normal speed, toss a blade downward and Z-grab it. This at least gives you a quicker projectile option than Crash Bomb, and even a mixup if you Z-drop it again and go for something else.

Don't hang on the ledge too long, or Mario will use his stupid dash attack and stage spike you. They might try to 2-frame you with it as well, so be careful and watch for the move.

Sometimes you can Hard Knuckle Mario out of his Up-B, other times you can't. I find it too unreliable to go for it frequently, and instead opt to set things up on stage with Leaf Shield and a Metal Blade. I also don't find it worthwhile to go out for the stage spike on Mario. If you want to Ledge Trump, stay back a bit so he doesn't hit you with the final frames of his jump punch, or trump by coming down from the air. It will be tricky though.

Oh, and don't worry about being gimped by Cape. When Mega Man gets hit with the Cape, it gives him his Rush Coil back :)

Avoid Battlefield and Dreamland like the plague (although Dreamland is better if you have to choose between them). Their platform setup is heaven for Mario combos which can sometimes just outright lead to your death. Duck Hunt will allow you to survive longer against his Smash attacks if they catch you, and Town & City can sometimes lead to some early Air Shooter kills. FD is good as well. Do your best to play 'Stay Away From the Plumber', and go for the safe punishes whenever you can.

Those are just some thoughts for now. There is a really good Mario player in my region and so I have a decent amount of experience against an aggro Mario user. It's not an easy matchup, and you have to play it near-perfectly...but in the end, it is winnable. In my opinion it's probably 60:40 in Mario's favour.
 

Wreck33

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Vs Mario off stage. Best way and most safe is throw items at him followed by continuous Dtilts when he Up Bs to the ledge a lot of the time it hits Marios edge grab attempt and force an error of the next Up B to the stage instead. Uptilt or Up smash that landing. Mix up for when they come from up high down towards the ledge is jump bair at him. If he dodges that next time full jump fast fall bair the next one.
 

Xavix

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So... Mario it is?
Yes. I'm also sort of glad because I've always found major troubles with Mario across all my characters. He stands for me as one of Megaman's worst matchups as you need perfection across the entire game or he'll juggle you/send you offstage and it's practically over for megaman. Resetting to the neutral in this matchup seems incredibly difficult for Mega but incredibly easy for Mario. His incredibly powerful and fast kill moves don't exactly help either. I think this is still possible for Megaman, but I would go as far to say that the matchup is 30:70 Mario's favor.
 

Wreck33

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probably 2 things that don't work for you in this MU then. Your neutral game doesn't work vs Mario and you don't move well in the air after you get hit.
 

Mega-Spider

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:4mario:... I really hate this match up. This is a match up that requires a secondary main, and in my case, I choose :4sonic: for this position. There's a reason why Mario is considered Kryptonite to us: He's amazing at rush down, damage output, and combos. It's like Sonic, but unlike Sonic, Mario has a reflector, which stops us in our tracks. Our heavyweight status makes us combo food for Mario, and even worse with that lazy U-Tilt combo that Mario's love to abuse. I have beaten Mario a few times, but it's a MU that requires perfection if you're brave enough to fight. A 60:40 in Mario's favor MU if you ask me.
 

JesusMorpheus

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I always used to hate Mario in the past. Like way too much. But as time went on, it became not as bad. Granted it is still very annoying to eat 40-50% off a grab and up tilt. But this is a MU where you need to download your opponent very quickly or else it will not be very pleasant. Generally how i start off is i exclusively use pellets for a bit and grabs if they get close enough. You want to just study him in this time frame since Mario can be played differently. Some opt to try to wall out with fireballs while others cape or rush in to counter us so just stay on your toes while getting info on him. Depending on what they choose to do, i'll know for next time. His nair beats out pellets, so if he does nair, use your fair to counter it. If he runs in, i suggest spot dodging to see if he'll grab. If he does, you get a punish on him, but his dash attack will still hit if he opts for that. The whole match is a game of rock paper scissors to the extreme compared to other characters while managing how your projectiles are used. I like this MU a lot as it tests how well i can adapt because Mario can be played in many ways. As long as you look out for any patterns in his play, you can definitely clutch out a win.

That said, Mario is still Mario. He has that beastly up smash which will definitely catch your landings if you aren't careful. It also covers a lot of ledge options which is a pain considering how well he fares off stage with bair and fire ball if you recover low, and the absurd fair he has that spikes very early. He also can't be comboed as easily because his nair just beats out anything we try to do off a grab at mid percents. You can still bait it out and punish him but it's a very big annoyance knowing he can do that for free. Metal blade is still very good but be wary of the cape as they will use it on us since it is super quick. But this is another instance of RPS. When you have a metal blade, see how he reacts after the first throw. If cape, wait and throw it. Use this as a mindgame to make him fear it since if you are close to him and it hits Mario, that is usually a guaranteed grab. This is especially evident with Leaf shield as they will either cape or try to beat it out. Once you know what they'll do, then you can grab. Run up shield and then grab works well for me when i know they are going to do something, whether it's cape or an aerial attack.

Edge guarding can be a bit tough as while he does have a linear recovery, if mistimed, Hard Knuckle won't spike him since part of his up b has invincibility on frames 3-6 and lasts from frames 3-11 and good Mario's will up b very close to the ledge. We can try and force him to recover a certain way with metal blade but it is kinda hard to do since cape is available. The most i can say to do is to read an airdodge and bair him. We can try and force him to recover low by making a wall by throwing metal blade up but that's only a mix up at best. Getting a read with Hard Knuckle can be very good though since he does have some sort of flowchart of recovering and net you a stock but you have to be very quick about it.

Regarding stages, I think our best picks are probably FD, Smashville, Battlefield, and maybe Duck Hunt (i am just assuming for this last one). FD doesn't allow him to get those infamous up air strings to up b like he can other stages as easily. He can still get it but the platforms won't be there to aid him in getting it. This is the most neutral stage for this MU in my opinion. Smashville can be decent for us as long as we don't let the platform net Mario early stocks. Never stay on this unless you absolutely have to. Mario has strong kill power and will abuse this to his advantage. But if he lands on it, we can potentially harass him with up airs safely. The only reason i like Battlefield is because of the large blastzones. Mario can get crazy combos on here but we can platform camp to an extent. Abuse this with Leaf shield and pellets, and keep in mind where he is and what he does and react accordingly. I can only assume Duck Hunt can be good due to its mostly flat stage bar the tree and bush. That tree is serious business though. Never get caught in there, it's practically a free stock for Mario. He can also wall jump to recover so be wary of that.

All in all, i can see this MU being 55-45 to 60-40 for Mario. He has that burst factor of when he gets in, we start to hurt a lot compared to when we are walling him out. I enjoy it a lot though for it being a losing MU since it's a test of how well you can adapt before you get comboed to death. This is more of a mental game MU compared to others, which can lead to either very close matches, or ones where Mario steamrolls us. Just stay patient and you can definitely win this one
 

Drarky

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I think a big part of why a lot of MM players hate the Mario MU it's because of the overall simplicity of the character.

Like, dealing with Sheik as a negative match-up might be annoying and such, but you know that they are also putting a lot of effort to actually win, while Mario... yeah, they can just pick him up, have some fundamentals and they're golden. It's probably is pretty frustrating to deal with a pocket Mario winning against your main.
 

ravemaster47

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I expect dsmash after every whiff of you're close to him. Or after he spot dodges. I just kinda play target practice And bait the Cape
 

JesusMorpheus

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Conditioning them into cape is the best thing you can do. Then you can read it and get a punish on him. It's so rewarding to get, especially when we can mix it up so well
 

Megamang

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Remember not to tilt when he is comboing you for 70%, you'll get your chance to fight back with rage if you don't let him convert it into a kill. Mario in general doesn't have a true kill confirm, so you can really make life hard for him each time he has to get a kill. Don't landing fair onto his powershield or something, and treat him like he always has that usmash hitbox out (avoid the death zone)

Then, a throw can be converted into a kill if you manage to trap his landing. Based on this, I'd say the better player should win. I don't mind battlefield, even though he gets BnB early, you can mitigate most of that with good DI and choosing good places to be, and you get to live forever if he doesn't get the gimp.
 

Sorichuudo

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Mega Man so high tier now. Scatt winning fusion 3.
I don't think thats how tiers work, also lets talk about stuff like that in the social thread pls XD

So :4mario:... I really don't see this as anyway positive for us.
He lacks range, but that doesn't matter since he can use nair/bair to eat trough our projectiles and get in on us. Then its we at the receiving end of a combo video, and once we are out of combo %, we are at kill %.

His smashes are ridiculously hard to punish. Essentially never try to punish Usmash or Fsmash. I think the laggiest one is his Dsmash, but even then is the amount of lag we wish we had for flame blast, is still hard to get a anything on him.
Cape is such a non commitment that he can use it literally "every once in while" and unless he makes the terrible mistake of caping our shield, we ain't getting much of punish in against that either.

A good Mario will combo you till oblivion and then start to fish hard for a usmash/fsmash kill, and the annoying part is, due to how good those moves are, it works: we need a very hard read and a huge mistake on his part, while he just needs a tiny opening. Sitting in shield also doesn't work cause then we either get killed by Bthrow, or then we need to land back on stage/grab the ledge, and he has so much stuff to cover both of those that is annoying.

We have a really hard time edge guarding him, wich would be the saving grace of this MU, cause while his recovery is somewhat linear, his up B having invencibility really craps on most of what we have.

I see you guys being more optmist, but the way i see it, this is definitely a 70:30 for Mario. Together with Fox, our worse MU now that Sheik has been nerfed.
 

Xavix

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Does anyone know how to edit the poll to start a new one? If that is impossible or whatnot then I thought we could try not discussing exclusively top tier characters for once and focus on mid tiers for a change. The three options I was considering were :4falcon:, :4pit:/:4darkpit:, and :4dk:. Thoughts?
 

Diamond Octobot

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Well, we can start crying all the tears of our bodies going on how good Mario is, buut I still would like to remind you that we can still challenge him with FAir, and that some of his aerials aren't 100% safe on shield. The simple fact that he has trouble killing turns the MU into something more akin to Sheik, but wit a reflector instead of a Kill Move.
We can always try to play a bit lame with Leaf Shield to shift our momentum, or just use Rush Coil to stall a bit if Mario gets too close for comfort. My only problem here is that our grounded options (beside Mega Upper & Flame Blast on hard reads) cannot challenge Mario's NAir... I mean, that's kinda crazy XD
 

Megamang

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I'd say standing in shield with a metal blade 'beats' nair on the ground, especially if you add a leaf shield to that.
 

Sorichuudo

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Well, we can start crying all the tears of our bodies going on how good Mario is, buut I still would like to remind you that we can still challenge him with FAir, and that some of his aerials aren't 100% safe on shield. The simple fact that he has trouble killing turns the MU into something more akin to Sheik, but wit a reflector instead of a Kill Move.
We can always try to play a bit lame with Leaf Shield to shift our momentum, or just use Rush Coil to stall a bit if Mario gets too close for comfort. My only problem here is that our grounded options (beside Mega Upper & Flame Blast on hard reads) cannot challenge Mario's NAir... I mean, that's kinda crazy XD
True, but i wouldn't say Mario has trouble killing, cause unlike Sheik, he has a killing Usmash with invencibility, range around him, and safe on shield. He also has a kill throw.
 
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Megamang

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Thats all he has, and he can't really kill you in the air. So make sure you never land on Mario, don't contest it, just avoid that space.


But a Mario who is good in CQC will get the hitbox on ya, maybe by jump canceling and reversing it right when you leave the ground. There are a lot of ways he can get it, but there are lots of ways to avoid it. Try and read how they're going to kill you, and you can make their life harder. Play mario V Greninja a bit from their side to really feel this, its easier to understand a character if you have a little usage of them under your belt.
 

JesusMorpheus

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I'd be down to discuss falcon or DK. I have very little exposure to Pit/Dark Pit.

The thing with Mario is you absolutely have to respect how he approaches because of how low his end lag is. If you can respect that and bait out the occasional cape, it really shouldn't be that difficult. Just wait it out and learn his habits. It is frustrating to get hit with his attacks since they're just way better than ours but you just have to accept that. It's the same with Sheik. Once you accept you will be playing at high percents, you'll learn to play like that.

This is more a MU where you have to get into the opponent's head before they get into yours or else it's all over. Once you have a firm grasp on how the Mario plays, this is when you can win. We have a character who is amazing at mixing up how he plays. One moment we could be running in with leaf shield to try and scare them away to give us space, and the next we can use metal blade and pellets to space him out. And if he capes, just wait and punish. You have to take it real slow in this MU and just wait for him to make a mistake. Patience is key in this match compared to others where we can zone characters out and win
 

Mega-Spider

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Does anyone know how to edit the poll to start a new one? If that is impossible or whatnot then I thought we could try not discussing exclusively top tier characters for once and focus on mid tiers for a change. The three options I was considering were :4falcon:, :4pit:/:4darkpit:, and :4dk:. Thoughts?
Hmm... I'd be down for discussing the Pits. I don't have much experience with the MU, but I used to main Pit at one point, so I kinda have an idea of how the MU could potentially go. Granted, it's not much to speak of, but even the smallest information can go a long way, at least according to me it does. :p
The thing with Mario is you absolutely have to respect how he approaches because of how low his end lag is. If you can respect that and bait out the occasional cape, it really shouldn't be that difficult. Just wait it out and learn his habits. It is frustrating to get hit with his attacks since they're just way better than ours but you just have to accept that. It's the same with Sheik. Once you accept you will be playing at high percents, you'll learn to play like that.

This is more a MU where you have to get into the opponent's head before they get into yours or else it's all over. Once you have a firm grasp on how the Mario plays, this is when you can win. We have a character who is amazing at mixing up how he plays. One moment we could be running in with leaf shield to try and scare them away to give us space, and the next we can use metal blade and pellets to space him out. And if he capes, just wait and punish. You have to take it real slow in this MU and just wait for him to make a mistake. Patience is key in this match compared to others where we can zone characters out and win
That saying can go to any MU, regardless of how favorable/unfavorable the MU is. With Mario, the big thing that can get to us is that he literally has things that can counter us, and it's just more than the Cape. Between lagless Smash attacks, and stronger damage output, it can drive someone insane when they don't know how to handle it. Whenever I play this MU, I usually stay back and focus on not trying to either over commit or lose concentration. The smallest, and I mean the smallest bit of reaching or loss of concentration seals the MU. That's why this MU can be such a nightmare.
 

JesusMorpheus

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Hmm... I'd be down for discussing the Pits. I don't have much experience with the MU, but I used to main Pit at one point, so I kinda have an idea of how the MU could potentially go. Granted, it's not much to speak of, but even the smallest information can go a long way, at least according to me it does. :p


That saying can go to any MU, regardless of how favorable/unfavorable the MU is. With Mario, the big thing that can get to us is that he literally has things that can counter us, and it's just more than the Cape. Between lagless Smash attacks, and stronger damage output, it can drive someone insane when they don't know how to handle it. Whenever I play this MU, I usually stay back and focus on not trying to either over commit or lose concentration. The smallest, and I mean the smallest bit of reaching or loss of concentration seals the MU. That's why this MU can be such a nightmare.
Huh. I guess i'm one of the few that doesn't really have a problem with this MU. I personally think Pikachu is far worse compared to Mario. It's one thing to have good attacks that usually beat ours, but Pikachu can just break our zoning in an instant. Mario at least to work a bit to get in on us. Plus we have good mobility in the air if he ever gets too close. I personally don't mind fighting Mario. That said, i can firmly say after a bit of thinking that this is 55-45 for Mario and not possibly 60-40 like i said in my first post

EDIT: Gonna post a link. It's Scatt vs Anti. Anti went Mario game 2 so skip ahead to 7:10. This was the only game he went Mario.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7uhr6IwNxI
 
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Peabnut Bubber

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I will try to go in-depth tomorrow or later today as to why the Mario MU is no worse than 45-55 for Megaman.
 

Drarky

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The Pits are a MU I sure know the most of those 3, so I prefer that one.

And really now, while Mario does carry around a lot of positive aspects against MM, I can't really call it a 7-3 because while a lot of things he has beat us, none of them actually destroy our gameplan, it just means that we need a lot of adaptation.

In my country there are Marios everywhere, and most of the time it's just an entire cycle of adaptation. He starts beating lemons with BAirs? Gotta outrange it with my own BAir. He's doing NAir approaches? UAir him or move away. Most of the the time it comes down to knowing how to beat the option they are taking, and unlike pre-patch Sheik, we CAN actually beat them.

Is it tiresome? Yes. Is it a negative MU for MM? Yes. Is it 7-3? ...I don't really think so, the disadvantage is there, but it's not that big.
 

Xavix

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I guess we are doing the pits this week! Lets close Mario discussion by the end of tomorrow to stay on track. Also, is there no way to make another poll?
 

JesusMorpheus

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I guess we are doing the pits this week! Lets close Mario discussion by the end of tomorrow to stay on track. Also, is there no way to make another poll?
I have no clue about the poll. The only solution i can think of is to make a small thread each time we vote and just have it be the poll
 
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