Meta Boss Select! Megaman Matchup Discussion 2.0

[Mega-Spider]

Sorry i know we are not talking about dk but this is pretty big:

Zdrop combos could be very devastating.

The highest ive gotten this combo is 72, and could potentially lead to a dair spike

Do you think this could work on Pikachu? I know it has a better chance against the bigger characters, but how about Pikachu (you know, because we're talking about him right now)?

 

[Meistermayo]

Again, i apologize, i wanted to make sure this was known asap.

However, pikachu appears to almost completely avoid this combo due to his size and weight.

The first zdrop will always be a 5% hit because the second hit will not occur until the mb touches the ground, and we dont want it to touch the ground for this setup.


However, landing a tight input at 83 percent can still get you zdrop zdrop bair, which will kill near ledge.

For most characters, the max damage from this combo is 42 or 52, depending on size.
27 was the most damage i could get for pikachu, so this combo may not be optimal for this character.

However, i do not yet know how being in the air will affect this.

I have tested this on
Shiek
Mario
Fox (who can be killed at 76)
Cloud
Falcon
Luigi (very hard to combo, but still works)
Dk

 

[Red Shirt KRT]

Make a new thread for this it is good info but it doesn't belong here.

 

[Mega-Spider]

Make a new thread for this it is good info but it doesn't belong here.

In the context of Pikachu, it's good to know that he's the only character that isn't too affected by this combo.

 

[Wreck33]

I have seen Swag doing this. I tried to lab it but its hard as hell. Probably need to map buttons differently.

Please explain how you input your commands for this.

 

[Meistermayo]

I have seen Swag doing this. I tried to lab it but its hard as hell. Probably need to map buttons differently.

Please explain how you input your commands for this.

I use standard gc controls but play on ds:

1. Jump backwards with mb
2. Release control stick, press Z/L (i use the one next to the r button in ds)
3. Land. Depending on timing, you may need to wait to let all four hits connect
4. Jumpbackwards,
5. Press Z/L (you may need to move back further depending on character, timing may be instant)
6. Release control stick, press Z/L
7. Repeat until you need to fullhop to reach them
8. Finish with bair

Its best to try this on rob or dk first, as they are easiest. Fox can be killed by this very early so i think this will be good against him.

 

[Wreck33]

Thank you! Back to lab then! I remember having a problem with having an air dodge coming out when picking up the blade in the air. If that happens you don't have enough time releasing the blade again before hitting the ground.

 

[Wreck33]

Regarding the Pikachu matchup. Safe play with pellets mixed with Sh> double jump activated leaf shield going for grabs or mix up toss. That nullifies all the Pikachus I play online.

 

[Xavix]

Along with wrapping up pikachu discussion today, week 4 will be ! And yes I understand I am now partially using this thread for help on matchups that confuse me .
I'll have stuff for rosa and pikachu in the OP later today. Finally, let's get a discussion where we get yoshi mains to respond, it would improve the discussion and remove some bias.

 

[Wreck33]

For yoshi you can't be zoning around pelleting/ MB tossing freely because his eggs and weird jump angels and aerials will get you and we don't trade well. You have to play defensive with a lot of shielding and baiting attacks. Leaf shield a bit OP in this matchup as well though. SH > double jump Leaf shield activation into yoshi for grabs tends to work really well. Try ta land with leaf shield at his back otherwise his jab can be really annoying.

 

[Mega-Spider]

is a MU that, at least from my experience, really depends on how they play. If they attempt to zone us with eggs, it's not gonna be a big deal since we have the tools to keep Yoshi out, and his zoning tactics are far weaker than ours. However, if they play aggressively, then the MU becomes difficult. Yoshi has great damage output, an incredible jab, and doesn't have a hard time killing from my experience. He isn't the most difficult to gimp, but he can be a little hard to catch when edgeguarding from my experience. I'm not fond of this MU, and I do consider to be in Yoshi's favor if they go for the aggressive style.

 

[Meistermayo]

I know bair and uair can be very useful in this mu.

If he jumps at you but hesitates, a well placed fair can help avoid his aerial/grab 50/50.

imo, his scariest move is down b. Be careful about shielding too much, especially after whiffing a grab on his spotdoge.

 

[Sinister Slush]

You appear to live in SA, Megaspider. Outside of possible For glory Yoshi's I'm genuinely curious what Yoshi's you've played in tournament and actually think Yoshi doesn't have a hard time killing.
Especially against Megaman who has a decent kit/aerials to keep him out and they both have the same weight so they're both not dying till 120+% unless rage bair/Utilt from megaman lands on Yoshi early or Rage DownB/Usmash from Yoshi.

 

[Mega-Spider]

You appear to live in SA, Megaspider. Outside of possible For glory Yoshi's I'm genuinely curious what Yoshi's you've played in tournament and actually think Yoshi doesn't have a hard time killing.
Especially against Megaman who has a decent kit/aerials to keep him out and they both have the same weight so they're both not dying till 120+% unless rage bair/Utilt from megaman lands on Yoshi early or Rage DownB/Usmash from Yoshi.

I was referring to how Yoshi's moves have good knockback. Interestingly enough, I haven't participated in local tournaments yet and have recently started to use Anther's Ladder. I have managed to fight good Yoshi's on For Glory, and they were pretty tough. I'll admit that I need more adequate experience on Yoshi as a whole, but from my experience, it can get pretty hairy.

 

[shinhed-echi]

Most of my battles against Pikachu have become less hard when I started applying more hit and run tactics.

Using pivot Fsmash, Grounded backwards MB toss, along with your everyday MM tacatics, have started to work for me.


Pikachu usually starts the spam game from the other side of the stage, until we reach middle range and start making him uncomfortable. That's when he starts rushing us down, and this is when I usually retreat and apply pivot smash tactics as well as backwards MBs.

So basically, we want to be middle range. Hit him with pellets, and metal blades, then run away when he's coming straight at us, and attempt to deliver a surprise grounded MB to the back, to which if it connects, you go back, grab him, dthrow, fair, pellets/MB, then see if he wants to rush you down some more. If he does, rinse and repeat (but by now we might want to mix it up some more. He'll be more careful now, start pressuring us, now's a good time to throw in Leaf Shield in the mix. Since Pika's body is tiny, one of the leaves is bound to hit him before he hits us).


tl;dr: Most Pikachus I've faced tend to get really impatient around MM, and start chasing me desperately. This works wonders for me because I have loads of traps in store for him. Haven't faced too many Pikas in tourneys, tho.


BTW, sorta unrelated question. Does anybody else use Leaf Shield as a momentum shifter? I mostly use it for prank-ish tactics (in this matchup) but to me, it usually gets me out of a bad situation in the air.

 

[Meistermayo]

I use it to help land, get grabs, and sometimes boost offense or keep them away

 

[Megamang]

Yea, I use the momentum reverse with leaf shield liberally. At the right height, it doesn't have landing lag, so its a great mixup for landing. Most characters want to punish at the moment of landing. Megaman can change where he is going to land, with a hitbox, with no lag. Hells yea.

 

[JesusMorpheus]

Yoshi is a MU that must be played very patiently. He can trade with just about anything except for bair and it will be in his favor. You also have to be wary of egg toss because it goes at that awkward 45 degree angle we can't cover without shielding. What i like to do is to try to bait them into doing something using metal blade and pellets by staying at that max pellet range so i don't get easily punished. As mentioned above, falling leaf shield is super helpful and racks up tons of damage with down throw to double bair at early percents. The stages i like to take Yoshi are the usual BF/Dreamland. Town can also be helpful but we can die just as early because of Yoshi's very powerful attacks.FD can be good but you have to be perfect at punishing Yoshi's landings so i tend to avoid this stage. Mixing it up is the most important part of this matchup. Getting too predictable with pellets can cause Yoshi to run in and that is when things get real nasty real quick. In short, just switch between metal blade and pellets with the occasional leaf shield and as long as you keep a cool head and play patiently, this can be in your favor. Either character can do well against the other if they play correctly. In my opinion, this MU is dead even.

 

[Funkermonster]

As mentioned above, falling leaf shield is super helpful and racks up tons of damage with down throw to double bair at early percents.

Minor correction but Double Bair isn't a legit combo, Slash Claw inflicts too little hitstun link into itself or anything. Mega Man in general has a poor damage output, and this only really works against low-level players or those unaware, the majority of the time people could simply airdodge it (or you're, you could just UpB preemptively and beat it outright if you see another Bair coming), and Yoshi could likely just double jump armor through it anyways and then punish the endlag.

 

[JesusMorpheus]

Minor correction but Double Bair isn't a legit combo, Slash Claw inflicts too little hitstun link into itself or anything. Mega Man in general has a poor damage output, and this only really works against low-level players or those unaware, the majority of the time people could simply airdodge it (or you're, you could just UpB preemptively and beat it outright if you see another Bair coming), and Yoshi could likely just double jump armor through it anyways and then punish the endlag.

I am so used to baiting out the air dodge, i always assume it's a combo. Sorry about that!

 

[ravemaster47]

This matchup is one I find annoying. But it's not horrible. I play it very campy. Pivot fsmash is good when you bait him to rush you, and air shooter is probably my most used kill option here. I think our u smash beats his down b assuming you weren't hit by the startup. Shielding his dair usually can result in a utilt as well.

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

You don't outcamp us, we don't outcamp you. We're better upclose, but realistically we can't get upclose and you wouldn't really want to. We can gimp you a little bit better than vice versa, but it won't be happening often. It's a matchup that technically speaking yoshi wins (really slightly) but be just about even.

Some specifics

Edge Guarding: Your nair and up air are dissuading enough to make us not want t commit too hard to edge guarding you, but if you get baited into it that might be a lost stock. To try to gimp us you'll want to either attempt something cheesy with upairing our double jump or going for a raw hard knuckle. You aren't really in danager of anything by going for the hard knuckle so its at least worth a shot, upair is riskier cause if we dont actually double jump and just throw out a hitbox or an egglay or something you might end up getting screwed over. Fsmash is another option but that ones bad in most cases.

Neutral. Lemons and eggs. Against a Yoshi who is in tune with his angles you have to be a bit more particular about how you ping them out with lemons. Because there is actually a good deal of variance in the arcs and you can get conditioned into expecting the egg to go a certain way. If you do then the same egg you've been taking out for the last minute all of a sudden goes over where you expected it to be but still hits you. It's silly and it gives us enough of a window to get in on you. If we play that window properly we'll tack on a lot of percent. Theres a lot of micro stuff to this matchup but most of it gets decided in the zoning war known as the neutral.

Yoshi isn't lagless. Idk if people actually think this in 2016 but most of our moves are pretty laggy. On wiff, dair, down b, egglay, any grab, and any smash is easily punishable. free uptilt tbh. It's not going to happen that often so you have to pay attention for your moments. Don't try to hard punish spaced fairs on your shield, landing or full hop nairs, or any of our tilts. You'll wanna stick to just grabbing or using lemons for those. UNless of course you have some sort of metal blade toss kill setup thats super quick out of shield. I haven't been keeping up with megaman tech so that might exist who knows.

This matchup is really honest. There isn't much jank coming from either direction. The better player comes out on top more times than not.

Edit: also I'm just gonna say it if you have a Yoshi with some serious grind time against Megaman, don't even bother with leaf shield lmfao. I can write sonnets on how pointless this is against us unless you have some very very specific new jank I don't know about.

 

[shinhed-echi]

For edgeguarding:
What about Leaf Shield+Footstool? Is it viable versus a Yoshi double jump? I mean, unless Yoshi recovers high (which is usually the case) activating leaf shield, dropping down, air dodging a potential uair counterattack, and then landing a leaf-to-footstool is what I'd aim for. At least once in a set vs Yoshi.

There's also bair stage spike, but again, if Yoshi recovers low. For high recoveries there's nothing we can do about it other than uair, Metal Blade (if you want to have it stolen) and if your lucky to land it, crash bomb while he's rising.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Yes leaf shield and footstooling is good against Yoshi. Especially if you know he used his DJ already.
Yoshi is unfortunate in having no autosnap on the ledge outside of us using Downb under it or way above it (which nobody does cause under is too risky and above basically if they attempt to punish they either trade or we make it and they just sit on stage waiting for our ledge option)

 

[Xavix]

actual yoshi mains responded! WE DID IT GUYS
In all seriousness, glad to see some great responses! Idk who we should do for week 5.
I'm considering either or (now with her serious buffs). Thoughts?

 

[BugDoctor]

We should cover post 1.1.5 Sheik as well now that she's been altered so much. It has probably changed the matchup quite a bit.

 

[Xavix]

We should cover post 1.1.5 Sheik as well now that she's been altered so much. It has probably changed the matchup quite a bit.

Good point. Seems like a better idea, so if no better suggestions show up we can definitely do sheik.

 

[Red Shirt KRT]

I managed to beat the best pika on anthers ladder. It was a ton of me leaf shielding and time out wars. He kept going for the thunder jolt the entire match but I whittled him away with LS . He would get me with some really good combos here and there.

I think he would of beat me if he would have tried to approach instead of sit back though. Pika has some crazy combo games. I think it is quite an even matchup. Sorry for the late reply.

 

[JesusMorpheus]

I can get behind discussing sheik. I just played a sheik at my local last night and i have a bit to say about it

 

[CopShowGuy]

I haven't fought a good 1.1.5 Sheik. Not sure what all I could say but I'll contribute. Most of the gameplan is the same.

 

[Xavix]

Sheik it is!

 

[ravemaster47]

I don't think much has changed. We get b a little more slack against needles now with the distance nerf. She is still a hard matchup tho.

 

[Mega-Spider]

I'm thankful was finally nerfed. We don't have to get angry over Needles reaching the full screen (though it still has incredible distance). I'm not sure what else was changed about Sheik from the top of my head, but I still see it as a losing MU, just no longer an unwinnable one, which I'm perfectly okay with since it's no longer an automatic loss.

 

[Drarky]

Sheik still is one of the hardest MM MUs. The main difference is that now we have a chance.

The main thing in this match-up is: Don't get killed. And that's it. Seriously, that's it.

Sheik struggles a LOT now in the killing department, even though she still carries around all those combo shenanigans and needles are an annoyance, if you can manage to survive until the 120%, that's probably the best time to start striking back.

Take some risk if you know she can't punish it with something extreme (like a DSmash o BF), don't play 100% safe because you NEED to kill her before she does it to you. If you manage to get the kill, then play as always, with safety. The struggle of Sheiks when they are killed first it's something we can exploit at it's finest thanks to our moveset.

It still is pretty rough, but it's manageable. In my mind it's somewhere around -2 or -1.5. Hard, but not impossible.

 

[BugDoctor]

I think this MU has gotten significantly easier for us, though it's still not easy by any means.

The nerf to her needle range has been a pretty good change for us. She can't camp us as well, and leaf shield can now out range her. I'm not sure about item-thrown blades, but they impact needles anyway and would just get canceled by them. A shorthopped one might help if you have distance. I don't get the impression that Crash Bomb is useful in this case, but if you have the chance to land one on her, you may as well.

The fact that f-throw doesn't combo nearly as long as it used to is a huge benefit to us, as well as the fact that she no longer has her 50/50. According to ZeRo, her main kill options at this point are bouncing fish and upsmash, though we need to watch out for random Vanish mixups as well. This is great for us, as Mega Man's weight and fall speed typically made him incredibly easy for Sheik to combo into her previous kill setups. Now, although she can still rack damage on fairly well, she has to work more for kills...and since the Blue Bomber is pretty heavy, it means she has to work HARD for them and get more reads than before.

She's also 3 units lighter, which equates to us killing her significantly earlier (roughly 10%, I think?). Factor in the fact that her fair has a bit less range, and it's easier to space out with bair pressure, which has now become much more of a threat to Sheik since it's a great killing move.

Her downsmash was buffed to give it more knockback, but don't treat it any differently. It's still a highly punishable move and it's unlikely that Sheik users will employ it frequently, if at all (similar to our Flame Blast).

Also keep in mind that if a Sheik is pressuring your shield repeatedly with f-tilt, you can sneak an upper in. A lot of Sheik players don't expect this and think it's just free pressure, but that's not the case.

Keep tacking on damage whenever it's safe using blades, Leaf Shield (to also prevent being grabbed and locked into combos), and pellet mixups. Once Sheik is at 70%, she's at uptilt kill percent if Mega Man has zero rage. When you get grabs, pummel as much as you can before throwing to rack up damage. If you have distance, throw a leaf shield at her. Be mindful of bouncing fish, which almost every Sheik will go for at some point when you're coming back from off-stage. Mega Slide can also be good for getting her away from you if you can sneak it in between attacks.

Sheik will damage us a lot, but that gives us the rage we need to kill her earlier and safer. Just avoid getting killed as Drarky mentioned, get the damage in when you can, and we can definitely make this matchup work more consistently. She can still gimp well, so play it safe. I wouldn't even go off-stage against her unless it was to drop a blade or something. It's likely better to throw LS on and try to get some damage as she goes for the ledge.

 

[JesusMorpheus]

So i played this matchup recently and i can honestly say it is really not that bad anymore. Granted, we are still combo food to Sheik but it is a much more fair fight than before. Once we get past 100%, there really isn't much she can do besides landing stray hits. When you get to this point, this is when you want to start putting the pressure on and fast. With rage on our side, there isn't much she can do since we can sit in shield and avoid her f tilt to up air, especially when we have a back throw kill option. Leaf shield is still a pretty good option but you have to be careful when landing with it because if she reads the air dodge, her up air will still connect so use it sparingly. One thing that was working for me was using metal blade to make Sheik follow a certain recovery. Being able to force her to bouncing fish a set distance allowed me to bair her since she would try to pressure me on stage and i would sit in shield and punished her with a grab to lead to potential edgeguards.

Now the hardest part part about fighting Sheik is easily trying to get back on stage. She still has her great edgeguard techniques and even a kill confirm from needles. Mixing it up is very difficult as well since she can cover every option very quickly if they read how you get back. The most i can say is to just mix it up and try to take center stage as quickly as possible.

As for stages, FD is a very strong pick, probably the best stage for Mega Man in this matchup. The lack of platforms can be a bit discouraging but the main thing we want is to be able to survive as long as possible against Sheik. This stage grants us that ability to survive while making it hard for Sheik to confirm kills since there are no platforms to aid her. I would also suggest Battlefield and possible Duck Hunt. Battlefield for the wide blastzones and Duck Hunt for the space we can take as well as surviving for a long time. Also, NEVER let Sheik counterpick to Smashville. While she may struggle getting kills off the top, she has no problem killing horizontally, especially if the platform is in her favor. This is probably our worst stage in this matchup. Any stage is better than Smashville. Dreamland can be kinda tricky as well because of the small blastzones but it can work in our favor as well because of Whispy messing up her movement but i wouldn't count on it. I only recommend going here if you are absolutely confident in yourself about this stage and your ability to survive all of her attacks.

If you were to ask me, I would say this matchup is 45:55. 40:60 is the worst i would rate this matchup. It's still in Sheik's favor, but it is much more fair and doable now than it was pre patch. The only time i ever felt i was ever really behind or just straight up losing was when i was struggling to recover back on stage. Other than that, this match up is very winnable now

 

[Mega-Spider]

So i played this matchup recently and i can honestly say it is really not that bad anymore. Granted, we are still combo food to Sheik but it is a much more fair fight than before. Once we get past 100%, there really isn't much she can do besides landing stray hits. When you get to this point, this is when you want to start putting the pressure on and fast. With rage on our side, there isn't much she can do since we can sit in shield and avoid her f tilt to up air, especially when we have a back throw kill option. Leaf shield is still a pretty good option but you have to be careful when landing with it because if she reads the air dodge, her up air will still connect so use it sparingly. One thing that was working for me was using metal blade to make Sheik follow a certain recovery. Being able to force her to bouncing fish a set distance allowed me to bair her since she would try to pressure me on stage and i would sit in shield and punished her with a grab to lead to potential edgeguards.

Now the hardest part part about fighting Sheik is easily trying to get back on stage. She still has her great edgeguard techniques and even a kill confirm from needles. Mixing it up is very difficult as well since she can cover every option very quickly if they read how you get back. The most i can say is to just mix it up and try to take center stage as quickly as possible.

As for stages, FD is a very strong pick, probably the best stage for Mega Man in this matchup. The lack of platforms can be a bit discouraging but the main thing we want is to be able to survive as long as possible against Sheik. This stage grants us that ability to survive while making it hard for Sheik to confirm kills since there are no platforms to aid her. I would also suggest Battlefield and possible Duck Hunt. Battlefield for the wide blastzones and Duck Hunt for the space we can take as well as surviving for a long time. Also, NEVER let Sheik counterpick to Smashville. While she may struggle getting kills off the top, she has no problem killing horizontally, especially if the platform is in her favor. This is probably our worst stage in this matchup. Any stage is better than Smashville. Dreamland can be kinda tricky as well because of the small blastzones but it can work in our favor as well because of Whispy messing up her movement but i wouldn't count on it. I only recommend going here if you are absolutely confident in yourself about this stage and your ability to survive all of her attacks.

If you were to ask me, I would say this matchup is 45:55. 40:60 is the worst i would rate this matchup. It's still in Sheik's favor, but it is much more fair and doable now than it was pre patch. The only time i ever felt i was ever really behind or just straight up losing was when i was struggling to recover back on stage. Other than that, this match up is very winnable now

And that's the big thing to take out of this current MU: Still not in our favor, but not unfair like it was before. That alone makes fighting Sheik more bearable.

 

[Xavix]

Fought a sheik post patch at my local recently, so here are some thoughts

• Sheik is forced to use bouncing fish to kill in this matchup so be absolutely on guard for that. Recovering low seems to be the best counter this, as it is easier for sheik to intercept high recoveries.
• FD is awesome for this matchup as sheik getting kills vertically is virtually impossible and it's very difficult for her to kill horizontally. Just be wary that you can't use platforms to avoid needles anymore.
• U-air is also a great tool seeing that many of sheiks better approaches are in the air *at least from the set we played* and it can challenge f-air if the sheik is spamming it.
• If you are attempting to trump, be absolutely perfect with your timing or sheik can N-air/F-air and potentially get a stage spike.
• Kill options are Mega's biggest issue with the matchup as he needs to commit to a read for most of them. Play it safe a look for openings when Sheik is at high percents, don't go for chip damage aside from maybe lemons to keep sheik out. Mega has more options when sheik is offstage *B-air, Charge Shot, stage spike, etc.* so try to go for throws if you see an opening.

I definitely agree that Mega loses the matchup, but it feels more 40-60 than my initial thoughts of the matchup (30-70).

 

[BugDoctor]

Just to add to what Xavix said about Bouncing Fish and recovering low. If you're feeling gutsy or confident, you can try to bait the bouncing fish offstage, airdodge it, and immediately backair. If Sheik is at 50-60 and far enough off the stage, with her new weight value it's a decent chance for getting an early kill. Just be careful...it's a risky move.

 

[Sorichuudo]

Played a pretty good Sheik post patch this weekend, only played one game sadly, but the thing i got out of it: WE LIVIN'

Still getting combo'd to high % like it was nothing, but once we get there, not having to worry about guessing a 50/50 out of a grab makes a huuuuge diference.

As for theorycrafting, i still think Mega loses this, since needle camping is still a thing, but it seems much more doable now.