Meta Boss Select! Megaman Matchup Discussion 2.0

[JesusMorpheus]

I'm gonna try bringing in some Sheik mains to help us discuss this matchup. It seems like not many others have experience with post patch Sheik.

 

[Daymaster]

Most of our low-percent combos will still work, for sure. However, with our 50/50 kill setup gone, we don't really have any reliable way to kill a shielding opponent. Couple that with the fact that you guys can actually compete with our Needles now and the MU becomes MUCH more fair than before. You guys are still combo- and edgeguard-food, though.

 

[ravemaster47]

Who's next for discussion? Personally, I'd like to see more on MK or Cloud

 

[Mega-Spider]

Who's next for discussion? Personally, I'd like to see more on MK or Cloud

I'd go with .

 

[Xavix]

Forgot to mention that this weeks discussion will be focused on Cloud!
*I'm also going to edit this post later, I wanted to update the OP for April Fools but never got around to it so I figure I'll just put it up here in a seperate post. It may contain dank memes*

 

[Sorichuudo]

Forgot to mention that this weeks discussion will be focused on Cloud!
*I'm also going to edit this post later, I wanted to update the OP for April Fools but never got around to it so I figure I'll just put it up here in a seperate post. It may contain dank memes*

You can never have too many dank memes.

I'm up for Cloud as well.
I have some good practice with him on local friendlies, but i'm still not too sure about this MU.

 

[ravemaster47]

I haven't played many good ones. But if we can grab him from his recovery, it's a free stock. But w good cloud will likely space the recovery well enough to not dip over the top of the ledge. That being said, he doesn't automatically snap the ledge. So we can probably hard knuckle him.

Lemons keep him away pretty well. But his Nair beats our lemons. Being above him is not recommended as u air hurts. This is a matchup I try to finish by getting him off stage as much as possible. He has the speed and power to kill us pretty easily.

 

[CopShowGuy]

Keep him off stage! That or directly above you. Uair means he can't get that long lasting dair to easily hit. Fair and nair are still a problem if he isn't directly above.

 

[Sorichuudo]

Ok, Cloud. His nair is great to approach eating trough pellets, easy to space and safe, so when he wants to approach they will often us that. He won't be approaching much of the time tho, he will run circles around Mega while charging his limit, obviously.
Good pellet play can harass him while he charges, and keep him out when he wants to go in. We must shoot where he will be, not where he is, since then his nair/dash attack will just plow trough our projectiles.

Limit Crosslash is essentially safe, kills relatively early too on the edge, watch out for that when recovering. Same for Limit Blade Beam, wich is a transcendent projectile. Play it even safer then usual when he has his limit.

Having him off stage is not an auto-stock as most people think, but between projectiles and LS, he is going to go trough hell to get back onstage. He can mostly stall his recover with one side B, or if he actually has his limit he might go for either a Limit Cross Slash or Blade beam, be on the watch for that.

So essentially:
Don't challenge his aerials, stay grounded and go for a grab when possible;

Uair is great for juggling him, like Copshowguy said, air shooter just craps on his dair;

If you are at kill %, he doesn't have a kill throw neither gets anything off of it, so shield more instead of rolling/spot dodging. Just beware his Limit Cross Slash, that thing does ridiculous shield damage, and if you shield it, don't try to punish it, its safe(not sure if you can roll out of it and punish tho);

When edge-guarding, toss everything you can at him, and stay near the ledge with LS up when you can. If you force him to recover from below and he has no Limit, then that is pretty much a stock.

Mix up when recovering, and don't jump off the ledge when you grab it, he has a lot of stuff to cover that.

I might think this MU is even, if only cause of how lackluster his recovery is.

 

[Megamang]

Don't think that limit charging means you have to approach! It does mean you have to at least pressure since Mega doesn't have anything to charge up, but don't go flying into disjoints because he gets a little meter. Hes gonna have LB, a lot, just get used to it. Try and remove it via edgeguarding, remember if he has limit your goal is to take that, so you just have to guard from one double jump. Watch the M2K video on gimping Cloud, I'm not gonna explain everything but megaman has a f4 killing bair and good air accel so he is great at this, as well as doing his own gimps with his projectiles.


While his air game is incredible in every way, he has to land eventually. His ground options are meh, so your shield is your best friend against aerial approaches because a shield will keep you safe from aerial-> ground option, except grab. Grab is decent, he'll get a little damage and some limit charge... but its better than being grabbed by Bowser or DK or Robin or anyone with a confirm. But you should be able to get some powershields in, which allows punishment of his crazy aerials.

 

[Mega-Spider]

I say we should extend the Cloud discussion for a bit. He's a current threat, and I feel like we aren't playing our part.

 

[Megamang]

I'd love to know more about the MU, but I don't have much more to share.

He is kinda tall, so snagging him with uair isn't that difficult and as always has a huge reward.

I like metal blade + Leaf shield + shield as my defensive neutral stance, since he can't really punish shield that hard and can only safely poke at it from time to time. His dashgrab isn't scary...

 

[Sorichuudo]

I'd like to add more but my play time is very limited cause work+school :^(

 

[JesusMorpheus]

I feel we should try voting for our next character discussion. It seems not many of us are as familiar with Cloud as we would like to be. Having a poll could result in more responses depending on who is being discussed at the moment. The same thing happened with Sheik last week as well, where there were not many responses as compared to the other characters we discussed such as Ryu and Rosalina. I'll be writing about my opinions on Cloud once i finish my work soon. I'm just spouting what i think would work best for our future discussions. I'll be back in about an hour to write about Cloud.

 

[ravemaster47]

We could discuss the witch too. Though, I have not played many.

 

[Wreck33]

For Cloud one big thing in the MU is getting used to Clouds weird target hitbox. Its very thin so landing short hop nairs on him requires you to have this in your calculations and starting pellet strings a little closer to him then you think when you wanna get the nair knock back. This is huge in the MU since we carry him off stage easily if we land those. What I normally do is space around with ftilt ftilt sh backwards nair to be safe and chip on damage. when I see I have the right distance I go for the ftilt ftilt sh nair knock back. I have the most success gimping this char in the entire cast. Almost all the Clouds double jump when offstage at a high height so they come down towards the ledge. Just full jump towards him with your back and start drifting towards stage. The Cloud double jumps and you 4 frame Bair him to death. Its so gooooood and easy to wait for air dodge or if he attacks out of his double jump and bair him. The practically never go low and if they do its easiley reactable to go down and gimp him there instead. Esp a cloud with limit will always jump to the stage since they really don't wanna waste their limit with Up B. So far for me I find this MU strongly in my favor.

 

[Megamang]

What Wreck33 says is totally correct. I just want to add, that good Clouds will start mixing up their recovery more than just jumping towards the stage. Watch m2k for some ideas, but Cloud has a variety of ways he can use his airdodge, nair, fair, DJ, and Climhazzard to return to the stage. On the other hand, we have metal blade, leaf shield + footstool, bair, dair, fair, and nair + pellets. Use your tools to keep him offstage. You should know that even with limit, Climhazzard is vulnerable from the top (but has a hitbox in front for the regular version. The LB version only has that hitbox for half of its ascension) so Dair can do a lot of work in this MU. Be aggressive with your Bair, its your best friend for killing Cloud.

Cloud can kill you, very quickly. With limit side B, and his huge sword and edgeguarding game, your stocks might disappear quickly. But, if you learn edgeguarding, your punish game can be as quick and efficient. Something like landing an uair midstage -> bair -> bair can kill him. Horizontal knockback is his enemy. As mentioned previously, nair is really great for this. If you get him in a corner, be knowledgeable about his roll and use your pellets and buster hitboxes to try and keep him there + send him offstage. Don't get too greedy and go through a roll and lose your position, and be ready to shield his d-tilt and punish (its good burst movement for him). When you are pretty sure it will land (conditioned shield from pellets/uair/bair/fair/metal blade/crash bomber) a dashgrab can be great, since our throws put out at a mean angle.

I really like crash bomber in this MU. I do my best to hit a bair off of it, either directly from the setup damage or indirectly from a defensive action. Otherwise, having a metal blade in hand + leafs surrounding me is the best state to be in, since it makes your shield better than his. Shield is great in this MU...

DO NOT LET HIM LAND HIS AERIALS. Shield them, zone them out... whatever. Make him do all his damage with landing grabs and ftilt if you have to, just shield his aerials at all costs. They can be safe, but deter them with leaf shield and OOS metal blade toss. If he is landing his aerials, his gameplan is going well... but his ground game isn't better than pellets + blade, so just make him use that and abuse him. Your grab game is much better, especially if you can grab with leaf shield active (condition shield by throwing most of your leaf shields) so abuse that as well. I feel this MU is even, probably stage dependent. Personally, I use my ban on smashville since the platform gives him free limit charge whenever.

Don't recklessly approach because he is charging his limit. He will get it eventually, don't worry about it too much. It wins him games because people are way too eager to try and stop it. Just let it happen, be wary of the limit specials, and try and take it away via edgeguarding as often as possible.

 

[Mega-Spider]

I'd like to add more but my play time is very limited cause work+school :^(

That's how it's been with me lately. Senior year is finishing and it's extremely busy so I haven't had much time to practice. I'm hoping to find some cool time where I can get at least an hour of practice.

As for , this is a MU that requires you to be on your A game. Sure he's easily gimpable, has a poor grab game, and can be edgeguarded easily, but that doesn't mean much where you have safe kill options, strong attacks and aerials, and the trump card known as Limit Break. We have to keep our eyes on both Cloud and his mix ups at all times. Make sure you don't get giddy when he's charging his Limit Break, since he could counter that by canceling the animation. Slash Claw is your best tool in this MU if you can gimp him.

 

[Xavix]

My thoughts on Cloud at the moment can still be summed up by a post I made in the last matchup thread:

Spoiler: Original Thoughts

• Cloud's recovery is incredibly punishable. However, Mega Man's recovery is equally so due to cloud's ridiculous D-air.

• Mega Man must consistently apply pressure to Cloud to prevent charging limits. Pellets have seemingly slightly more range than his sword, making them even more effective in the neutral.

• Try to take cloud offstage when he has limit charged. Forcing his limit use into his Up B is incredibly advantageous.

• Stay low and safe with your recovery when he has limit charged. He can't go offstage in fear of what was mentioned above, especially due to his faster falling speed.

• DO NOT JUMP OFF LEDGE EVER. While this might be *semi rarely* useful elsewhere, Cloud can easily predict this and react to this taking stocks incredibly quickly.

• Crash Bomber cancels out Blade Beam.

Due to a somewhat lack of responses I'm moving discussion to start/end on Sundays now, this gives people plenty of time to write their thoughts out over the weekend. I'm considering opening a poll on Fridays as well that ends on Sundays at 4:00 PST to decide the next discussion. Would this be worth it? Seems like the current schedule prevents people from posting often (evidenced by the Sheik discussion and Cloud until recently) and Morpheus's suggestion seems like a great idea. Finally, I'm heading over to the Cloud boards if no one has already to get the word out about the discussion.

 

[GHNeko]

FORMER MEGAMAN MAIN, CURRENT CLOUD MAIN HERE.

I MOD THE CLOUD DISCORD, MADE A CLOUD TRAINING STAGE (See Signature) AS WELL AS 2 ACTIVE GUIDES/INFO THREADS FOR CLOUD.

@Zori MY HOMIE TOO.

HEARD YA'LL WERE DISCUSSING CLOUD v MEGA.

How do you all do?



I'd like to start off and say that Cloud is not super easy to gimp lol. He has recovery mix ups and methods of stalling and while not a lot of Cloud do this, he can go fairly deep off stage, at least vertically, and because Nair and LCS exist as well as untechable wall spikes, recovering low is not recommended against a Cloud who is ready to go off stage.

 

[Xavix]

I'd like to start off and say that Cloud is not super easy to gimp lol. He has recovery mix ups and methods of stalling and while not a lot of Cloud do this, he can go fairly deep off stage, at least vertically, and because Nair and LCS exist as well as untechable wall spikes, recovering low is not recommended against a Cloud who is ready to go off stage.

Sorry if I sound like a noob, but what is LCS? (I either don't know too much cloud tech or I also seem to not know general tech lol) Also the idea is to recover VERY low (from nearly off the screen levels of low), but this can also be countered due to having no invincibility during the jump. Other thoughts:

• It should be noted that neither character has good options for returning to the ground from juggle situations so the match is basically keeping the opponent from landing in any way possible.
• Normal blade beam is practically useless in this matchup, but so is Mega's leaf shield since Cloud outranges it.
• Finally, is there some way Cloud can snap to ledge outside of Limit Up-b? It's usually very easy to catch a cloud who tries to go for ledge otherwise with a hard knuckle.

 

[GHNeko]

oh right this isnt Cloud boards.

LCS = Limit Cross Slash.

Even if you recover low as Megaman, Limit Cross Slash and Limit Blade Beam can be made untechable due to how hitlag and recoil lag work.

The chances of being able to tech against LCS are low because of how wide it is and how it can push you into the wall. You'd have to make sure there is space between you and the wall to avoid untechables, but that makes it easier for Cloud to hit you with Nair.

Normal BB isn't entirely useless because Megaman doesnt have a lot of ways to cover diagonally above him and below him so Aerial BB can still be used to force an airdodge, force him to Metalblade, burn up some of leaf shield, or simply prevent him from moving forward. I think Fair cant clank projectiles IIRC but if it can, he can use that to deal with BB in the air but Fair has 30 frames of cooldown and 19 frames of landing lag so it can be a risky commitment vs Cloud who has a variable window of opportunity depending on how he spaces BB.

While Cloud can't do much about Uair, he still has auto canceled Dair to land with and on top of that 2 forms of stalling in the from of BB and CS (Cross Slash). And on top of that, he can Climhazzard to the ledge from up above.

As for snapping, he CAN snap with normal up b IF he is close enough to the ledge. But it's fairly close so it's not a big issue; however he can airdodge into normal up b ledge snap provided he has the spacing and timing down.

 

[Wreck33]

He is easy to gimp. The better the player the harder its is sure. But thats a given. He sucks at recovering regardless when you compare to other chars. You edge guard Shulk the same way you do Cloud when playing as Mega Man btw.
The only thing Cloud has is Limit yolo stuff that wins him some games. Other wise Mega Man wins every situation in the MU.

 

[JesusMorpheus]

He may be easy to gimp at times but he has an array of options for mixing it up. It all comes down to what the player thinks is the best option. You'll just have to adapt to it or hard read it.

Wow, i fall asleep early by accident and i see tons more responses! Well pretty much all i would have said about this MU has been said already by others above. Just gonna throw out i think it is 60-40 for Cloud. He may have a hard time getting back onstage, but when he gets in, it is just like fighting Fox. Very, VERY painful. Couple that with limit and he has an abundance of options alongside that huge buster sword of his and it can be hard to do work on him. It has to be played patiently but not too patiently because we wouldn't want him to get limit and worry about that. The amount of fear that thing induces is crazy because of how fast Cross Slash can come out with limit break. He needs one good read and he could potentially take a stock.That's huge for him because playing catch up with Mega Man is not fun at all and is pretty difficult when he able to space his aerials far enough to that we can't even reach him. Just play carefully and think about every choice you make when fighting him.

I don't think stages have been discussed for this MU. I haven't fought many Clouds, but i feel that FD, Duck Hunt, and Town and City are our best picks. With the aid of platforms on all other stages except Lylat, he can run away while charging limit. Our mobility isn't the best so we would have to read where he goes. Smashville is a bit more forgiving since he can't hide forever but forget about BF and Dreamland. I've had a Cloud just run circles around me while charging limit and it was way too difficult to catch him. Plus on FD and Duck Hunt, he won't have much place to hide and charge since there aren't any platforms in the middle and top for him to escape to. We can really annoy him as long as we keep our distance and can force him to make certain options since he won't have platforms to help him recover. With air shooter beating out his dair, it makes landing hard for him on FD/duck hunt when used alongside diagonal metal blade and crash bomber to catch his landing in the event you do mess up, which sets up for a scenario where you could potentially continue the juggle or get a strong hit off of the explosion.

That's all i have to say now. Glad to see more responses now!

 

[GHNeko]

He is easy to gimp. The better the player the harder its is sure. But thats a given. He sucks at recovering regardless when you compare to other chars. You edge guard Shulk the same way you do Cloud when playing as Mega Man btw.
The only thing Cloud has is Limit yolo stuff that wins him some games. Other wise Mega Man wins every situation in the MU.

He may be easy to gimp at times but he has an array of options for mixing it up. It all comes down to what the player thinks is the best option. You'll just have to adapt to it or hard read it.

Basically this.

It's simple to gimp Cloud, but it's not easy if the Cloud is fairly aware of how to approach recoveries and utilitizes his options to their fullest.

Wow, i fall asleep early by accident and i see tons more responses! Well pretty much all i would have said about this MU has been said already by others above. Just gonna throw out i think it is 60-40 for Cloud. He may have a hard time getting back onstage, but when he gets in, it is just like fighting Fox. Very, VERY painful. Couple that with limit and he has an abundance of options alongside that huge buster sword of his and it can be hard to do work on him. It has to be played patiently but not too patiently because we wouldn't want him to get limit and worry about that. The amount of fear that thing induces is crazy because of how fast Cross Slash can come out with limit break. He needs one good read and he could potentially take a stock.That's huge for him because playing catch up with Mega Man is not fun at all and is pretty difficult when he able to space his aerials far enough to that we can't even reach him. Just play carefully and think about every choice you make when fighting him.

I don't think stages have been discussed for this MU. I haven't fought many Clouds, but i feel that FD, Duck Hunt, and Town and City are our best picks. With the aid of platforms on all other stages except Lylat, he can run away while charging limit. Our mobility isn't the best so we would have to read where he goes. Smashville is a bit more forgiving since he can't hide forever but forget about BF and Dreamland. I've had a Cloud just run circles around me while charging limit and it was way too difficult to catch him. Plus on FD and Duck Hunt, he won't have much place to hide and charge since there aren't any platforms in the middle and top for him to escape to. We can really annoy him as long as we keep our distance and can force him to make certain options since he won't have platforms to help him recover. With air shooter beating out his dair, it makes landing hard for him on FD/duck hunt when used alongside diagonal metal blade and crash bomber to catch his landing in the event you do mess up, which sets up for a scenario where you could potentially continue the juggle or get a strong hit off of the explosion.

That's all i have to say now. Glad to see more responses now!

Cloud can limit camp on DH without much trouble vs Megaman, and the walled stage aspect makes him not only easier to recover but easier for him to set up edgeguards. As a former Mega main, I wouldnt take him to DH which iiirc has bigger blast zones than SV.

Cloud is the best character in the game in regards to battles of attrition. Provided he plays right, he'll last longer than you on a stock by stock basis and giving him a wall on top of bigger blast zones while he has much more reliably kill moves and a higher damage output. Mega works twice as half for the damage he gets. While Mega does have a wall jump of his own, you want to go to stages where you maximize his weakness instead of minimize them.

 

[JesusMorpheus]

Basically this.

It's simple to gimp Cloud, but it's not easy if the Cloud is fairly aware of how to approach recoveries and utilitizes his options to their fullest.



Cloud can limit camp on DH without much trouble vs Megaman, and the walled stage aspect makes him not only easier to recover but easier for him to set up edgeguards. As a former Mega main, I wouldnt take him to DH which iiirc has bigger blast zones than SV.

Cloud is the best character in the game in regards to battles of attrition. Provided he plays right, he'll last longer than you on a stock by stock basis and giving him a wall on top of bigger blast zones while he has much more reliably kill moves and a higher damage output. Mega works twice as half for the damage he gets. While Mega does have a wall jump of his own, you want to go to stages where you maximize his weakness instead of minimize them.

Hmm, Duck Hunt as well? i was only theory crafting as i haven't played many Clouds. I personally like FD since he can't run away as well as on other stages and i compared it to Duck Hunt since it is mostly flat. I'll keep that in mind for next time. So our best choices would have to be FD,Town, and Lylat? That's what it is sounding like from what i'm reading. I could potentially see Dreamland as being okay but i wouldn't go there after being limit camped on BF. That's just me though

 

[Sorichuudo]

Xavix As it was mentioned previously, yes, you must harass Cloud while he charges his limit, but as Megamang said, he WILL get his limit charged a lot. Don't go in there running into his disjoints thinking you absolutely must stop his charging no matter what.

GHNeko Megaman won't recover low every time, the same way Cloud won't just come from below and waste his jump as soon as possible, as some people think.
While i agree that DH is great for him, its not bad for us either(also i thought DH had normal blastzones, and people just assumed it had larger ones cause of the camera. I'll look into that later). And again, yes, we will harass you while you charge but we know you will get limit eventually. Camping on the tree will just result in Mega going below you and shooting uairs.
Again, not sure about taking him to DH, but i sure as hell don't want to take him to SV, with smaller side blastzones and then having to deal with his Fsmash that kills from the opposite side of the continent.

Also i wouldn't rely on LCS for untechable situations, i've seen people tech that, online and offline. Is like assuming we can just run off and bair you(multihit) for an untechable situation if you decides to go low as well, is not that easy.

Again, Mega's recovery is not espetacular, but its pretty good, we can save our DJ and mix it up. Tl; DR, both characters edge guard each other very well, but you won't be gimping Mega anytime sooner than he will be gimping you, killing early, thats for sure, but from what i read you and Xavix seem to think Mega will go low every single time.

Cloud needs a lot of "if's" to snap the ledge safely with his up B, while Mega just makes use of the magnetic hands like the rest of the cast besides Mac.

 

[Megamang]

Yea, don't go to smashville.

The rule for smashville picking, is, what can they do on the platform, and what can mega gain?

In this MU, the Cloud absolutely gains more from having the platform, since he gets to charge his limit.

As for forcing an edgeguard situation, I would argue that Mega is better at it since ftilt-nair setups are easy and plentiful if you play your cards right, where the Cloud has to hit some odd hits to get you in a bad situation. Save your double jump, but be liberal with the Rush Coil to end up high, its better than trying to go low.

To avoid bad situations, respect his nair. It hits behind him, then in front, then all the way behind. It has a stupid duration, stupid range, stupid angle, and stupid arc... so just be aware. And don't get nair'd offstage. And when Cloud comes at you backwards offstage, prepare for both hits of nair, since he can do that at pretty low risk.

When Clouds come at me with the back hit of nair, I like to nair them into the stage. Stagespike is always an option, and if they tech they still might get hit with pellets, and if they techjump you are safe for the time being.

 

[GHNeko]

Yeah that's fair @ not always recovering low. I didn't want to imply that but it was brought up and i wanted to say how it's not generally a good idea against a ready Cloud.

Limit CS is very reliable for setting up untechables. It's not hard to do if the situation allows it. LCS is engineered to be really good at it. If you dont get it, than its an error on the Cloud's part.

Cloud does rely on what if's for ledge snaps, but he can do it from airdodge so it's not hella free.


As for DH, dealing with uairs from the tree is a non-issue because its easy to predict/react. You dont want to give Cloud room to charge limit. That's more determental than SV's blast zones; which is a double edged sword both ways vs DH just straight up aiding Limit Camping.

And DH helps Cloud's recovery and edgeguarding lol.

More room to run around, high as **** platforms (which can score a FT kill as low as like 20-30%), wall jumps are accessable (Mega has them too but they're less important for him vs Cloud.)


You'd have to feel real comfortable dealing with a super lame Cloud to take him to DH.

 

[Megamang]

Megaman is uniquely able to deal with lame limit tree camping. Uair tears through shields, dodges, anything if they aren't GTFO'ing.

Sure in the last half minute he can end it, but any more stalling than that and mega is just getting free damage IMO

 

[GHNeko]

The verticle space disparity makes it easy to avoid Uairs tho, on top of the fact there is also horizontal space for Cloud to move left and right.

Yeah it'll be slow to camp limit while avoiding Uairs in the tree, but its possible and not hard and this is what matters in the battle of attrition.

Megaman has an answer for tree camping, but it's not absolute/unbeatable. It's only a harassment strat that forces basically all the characters out of the tree except Cloud because he will stay up there via airdodges, shields, rolls, and such until limit is charged.

 

[Wreck33]

I have to say that if Mega Man did any more dmg he would be broken. They gave him a kit where you can control your games, you need to mess up or go for unsafe options to get hit as mega man.

 

[Megamang]

I'd have to try it in local practice, and I probably haven't played an expert at the limit camping... but it seems like mega could just exert too much damage. Leave a rush coil down, you're hitting 3+ uair into their area. No shield can take that, and dodges are risky since they just don't time well to avoid a second uair.

Yea, he can get up there and probably take some limit charge for free. But we're comparing it to other stages, and the smashville platform is much harder to pressure a charging Cloud off of.

 

[GHNeko]

I'd have to try it in local practice, and I probably haven't played an expert at the limit camping... but it seems like mega could just exert too much damage. Leave a rush coil down, you're hitting 3+ uair into their area. No shield can take that, and dodges are risky since they just don't time well to avoid a second uair.

Yea, he can get up there and probably take some limit charge for free. But we're comparing it to other stages, and the smashville platform is much harder to pressure a charging Cloud off of.

That's a fair assessment to have I suppose. I just feel that DH offers way more for Cloud than SV does. Considering how strong Cloud is already, the smaller blast zones dont matter as much in my eyes compared to the stronger camping game you give Cloud by going to DH.

I have to say that if Mega Man did any more dmg he would be broken. They gave him a kit where you can control your games, you need to mess up or go for unsafe options to get hit as mega man.

If MEga did more damage he'd be viable. not broken. Fair having such **** cool down and meh hitbox data, on top of low damage grounded normals aside from like Utilt and smash attacks; a projectile that can be caught, a projectile that can be given back to megaman. a projecile shield that isnt super reliable.

Mega has to do so much work to compare to the damage output of top tiers. His tools are fine despite the list I've given; outside the fact the reward for using them properly is not high enough and that's why he is where he is in the tier list.

Having much greater damage output would be a god send and would also make his leaf shield set ups, meta blade set ups, and lemon setups all the more valuable and rewarding.

Again, he'd be VIABLE. High tier easy.

The fact that his uair and dair can be reflected/pocketed make certain top tier/high tier MUs a lot harder than they should be and would still keep him from being top even with damage buffs.

 

[Wreck33]

Pocket that would be villager, maybe the easiest MU in the game.

 

[Drarky]

If Mega did more damage he'd be viable. not broken.

First of all: Are you saying Mega Man is not viable right now? I mean, considering Scatt's decent results and the fact the characters is not really "checked" by any other (Maaaaaybe Mario to an extended, and even then having more damage against Mario is not going to cause anything) makes me think it doesn't feel quite right to consider him "not viable".

Do you probably need a second? Yes, that's probably true, but in this game there's hardly characters that are totally viable without the need of a second, even some of the top tiers are in need of them(Rosa probably needs a second against Cloud for example).

Second: If Mega Man did more damage, that would not make him viable, that would make him more polarizing. And you do not want that for the health of the game.

Remember: Damage means both Knockback AND hitstun are increased. Do you want to deal against lemons that you can't shield if you eat the first one? A frame 4 BAir that kills even earlier and might possibly combo into itself? UAirs that do some disgusting damage with you unable to escape from them?

Even if somehow he remains the same against some of the top tiers, imagine being a low tier character against him. Imagine MUs like Luigi (Which is already a pain for him) being even harder because all the Mega Man player has to do is press Jab 3 times and he gets not only some space, but that also do a decent ammount of damage while being EXTREMELY safe. Not fun. At all. You do not want that.

I feel like right now, Mega Man is in an almost perfect balance spot. The risk-reward ratio and skill required for him is a pretty good example of balance, since while he is unique, is not unique enough to shut down everyone else, nor is he way too differents that somehow makes him useless.

And he feels exactly like playing a Mega Man game. Some thinking, some shooting, some risk and some reward. Just how I like my MM games.

The only thing that maaaaybe he's undertuned are Smashes, but it's something that I can honestly deal with.
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I'll post my thoughts in the Cloud MU later, I tend to practice with some Cloud users so it might be useful.

 

[Megamang]

Well put. We see that Scatt can put in work, even against Anti.

That means this character is only held back by its players, which is a good thing and can reasonably be said about most of the cast. Unless you are playing a character with almost all bad MU (you'd know who you are) then you are more than likely tournament viable. Especially at the local or regional level, Megaman is a good choice. He actually, at least from what I've seen, does better than 42nd in results. Especially in Japan.


Yes they often have 2ndaries, but Megaman himself is a powerful secondary. I personally like opening with Mewtwo or Greninja sometimes, just because they are safer picks against some characters... But nothing makes me smile more than a Diddy or (god bless them) a luigi/villager player, not ready for my 2ndary doom at all.

Mega is in a good place.

 

[Sorichuudo]

Not to make this more off-topic but i agree that Mega NEEDS a higher damage output in some of his moves, or at least less lag on some of them. Pellets that you can't shield really is not something that anyone wants, but at least fair/bair that you can use more safely, or more kill power in his smashes to make up for how laggy they are wouldn't make him polarazing, imo.

Back to Cloud, so: STAGES
JesusMorpheus Why should we consider taking him to T&C ?
I thought that the lower ceiling would benefit him way more than us, and the ocasional plataforms could help him run and charge limit just as well as BF. What is in it for us on that stage?

Wouldn't BF be good for us considering the bigger blastzones= we living longer? Most stocks we will take from Cloud will be from an edge-guard rather than outright killing him, so the bigger blastzones wouldn't make much difference against us.

GHNeko , do you think Cloud has any stage that he absolutely does not want to go against Mega?

 

[JesusMorpheus]

I would say Town is better than BF because Cloud has the mobility to run circles around us and charge limit while it being way too difficult for us to catch him. It is very annoying and tedious to try to play on BF. With Town, the platforms don't allow him to camp as much. On BF, it is a constant game of cat and mouse throughout the entire match and with the platforms disappearing nevery now and then on Town, you're able to at least fight him head on for a bit. Plus he can't really camp on the second transformation of platforms since they always end up in the middle and then drift out towards the blast zones. He would be putting himself in a bad spot unless he is absolutely sure of what he is doing. Plus the platforms are short enough that we can SH uair very easily if he stays on them for any longer. This is probably just personal preference though

 

[Megamang]

I'd say again, smashville is the worst for this, TaC has some good transformations like the ones you mentioned, but when the platforms are really high Cloud gets limit with imputiny.

I've said it before, but we can't get hung up on whether he gets limit or not... He is going to get limit. If you play it right, you might be able to do serious shield damage, or get some chip damage in, while slowing this charge. But he will have this charge. By far, the best way to prevent dying to a limit special, is to make him use the moves to recover. Uair -> Bair is nice setup, but I usually go for the second uair for damage cause im greedy.

Anyways, make sure to pellet the hell out of him. When you pellet him, make sure to be wary of him firing a limit blade beam. This is transcendent, so it'll go thru all your projectiles (but not kill them! So they can still slow Cloud if he is following the beam). This is a victory! It wastes his limit, and shouldn't hit you. If it does, its some damage (19 I believe) and a probable follow up... but yea, you'll be fine. Ideally you dodge it and he has to start charging again.

Don't get hit by a late late dair, or you'll get finishing touch confirmed, or just uaired for a bunch of damage. You can beat the dair horizontally with bair and pellets, and from below with uair, so it really shouldn't be a concern. In neutral, they can hop it so it ends right after it hits you/they land; don't fall for this as it is not punishable really. You can probably shieldgrab, or drop shield and pellet them, but don't run right into a smash if they fade away.


I'm kinda rambling on Cloud, but something I saw from the Aerolink videos (though his wasn't vs Cloud) is Zdropping a metal blade. When you launch them horizontally, you can pull out a metal blade, then pull out a leaf shield when Cloud gets close... This way, your leaves pressure them on the ledge, the Z dropped blade can be utilized whenever to try and hit (it can either stagespike or send them away, its pretty great), and if they get past all this with a ledgeroll you can probably run up and grab -> bthrow while the leaves cover for you.


This is a matchup you'll benefit a lot from just sitting down and playing a lot. Every Clloud is a little different, but you can learn a lot about the general approach they have if you sit down with a decent one and play for an hour. You'll feel much more confident when (not if) you run into a Cloud in bracket. Since we play 2 stocks now mostly, a single gimp can totally swing a set in your favor. Don't let him get 1000 damage a match off of Uairs, make him really work for it (shield his aerial landing FFS, and don't get utilted. If he can PP-utilt, know this extends the range of the utilt for a good bit, but you can still avoid it)