Meta Boss Select! Megaman Matchup Discussion 2.0

[Xavix]

Ok, marth/lucina it is!

 

[Mythzotick]

I just left a post on the Marth Match Up boards. I wanted to leave one for the Lucina Match Up boards as well, but theirs just redirects you to the Marth Match Up boards so...

 

[Mega-Spider]

I just left a post on the Marth Match Up boards. I wanted to leave one for the Lucina Match Up boards as well, but theirs just redirects you to the Marth Match Up boards so...

Really? Poor Lucy. She doesn't even have her own MU board. T_T

Anyway, is an interesting character due to the fact that he's in a similar position we're in. Once thought as to be mid or low tier, Marth is now seen as a potential high tier due to people like Mr. E and MK Leo getting stellar results with the character. It also helps that Marth has one of the more dedicated player bases I've seen from this game. I know he was a major threat in Melee and Brawl, but he was so severely nerfed in Smash 4 I thought his player base would fall hard. Then the patches came in. If this were pre-patch Marth, I'd say Mega Man beats Marth. Now, I'd say Marth is one of Megs' most even match ups.

Let's get Marth's strengths out of the way. He's quick on the ground, meaning that he can close in on us sooner than we think if we're not careful. His moves don't have the most ending lag whereas a good chunk of our moves do have some noticeable ending lag, and of course, the tipper. The tipper is the very reason why Marth can be considered a spacing character. It's a high risk, high reward scenario where you need to know how much space you need in order to get that tip kill, and the kill itself will kill extremely early, regardless of weight. He also has some solid damage output, even more when getting a tipper hit. Like us, Marth works the best mid-distance, especially because his tipper mechanic thrives on that much space.

As far as what we have over Marth, I'd say we have better grab options. Both Megs' and Marth's grabs come out fast, but we have a kill throw whereas he doesn't. I also say we have an easier time edge guarding. Marth's recovery is like ours in the fact that it's predictable and that it's recommended to recover low, but I think his Dolphin Slash is a little faster than Rush Coil, but the fact of being predictable is still there. I feel that we have more options for edge guarding, mainly Z-Drop Metal Blade into Slash Claw. Marth isn't the heaviest character around, so getting a kill confirm with the Mega Upper will do him in quickly (so long as he doesn't Counter, which is easy to bait if they fish for it).

When it comes to , there's not much I can say. Lucina is barely used in the competitive scene, and is always considered Bottom 10. Lucina still has solid kill power and damage output, but the one thing Marth benefits from, the tipper, is not there with Lucina. Sure, she gets more consistent damage output from not having a tipper, but that also means that she doesn't have the benefit Marth has. I know that doesn't sound like that big of a deal, but the tipper is Marth's key to success as it allows him to space properly and have a mechanic that can benefit him greatly in the long run. Lucina has to get in your face in order to even do anything, but if you're always on point, she's never getting in. I'd say Lucina is a bigger threat when it comes to shielding (something you should never do too often with Marth and her because of their Shield Breaker attack) because she inflicts higher shield stun compared to Marth, but that's only going to get her so far. She still has the gimpable recovery Marth has, and her grab options, while fast, are pretty poor overall.

When it comes to the stages, this is one aspect I'm not too familiar with when it comes to Team Blue Hair, but I can take a guess. FD helps Marth a lot because it's easier to judge the tipper whereas it hurts Lucina. Battlefield benefits both because they can use U-Airs and U-Tilts to poke at shields and benefit from killing there. Again, I'm not too knowledgeable on stages, so anyone that can provide info on this is greatly appreciated.

In the end, 50/ 50 and 60/ 40.

 

[Mythzotick]

is one scary m*f*, especially when he has rage. It sometimes doesn't even matter what % you're at as you're always in danger of getting killed by anything tippered related. If you want to know how crazy Marth's tipper f-smash can be against Mega Man, let's just say it's not pretty. Marth with max rage on Town & City can kill Mega Man when he is at the edge with a tippered f-smash as early as 20%. THAT'S INSANE! He can kill Mega Man that early who might I remind all of you looking at this is one heavy boy so be cautious. It's not just his f-smash. Almost all of his moves have a tipper and don't forget that he has a counter albeit it's on the weak side on power, but it's stil there and it does comes out at frame 6.

What also makes Marth scary is that he has deadly setups with his nair and jab; potentially leading into a tippered f-smash. He can do stuff like nair hit 1>jab>dancing blade hit 1>nair hit 1>jab>jab>f-smash.

As far as aerials go, his overall frame data is better than ours, but our slash claw/bair comes out faster than any of his aerials. Even though his aerials can cut right through our lemons, he still has a hard time dealing with them. It's also not recommended to challenge his nair, fair, and bair with flame sword/fair as theirs has more range and comes out at least 2 frames faster.

Even with all of that said, Marth can kind of struggle to get in on us as our lemons can still shut him down despite him being able to close in on us and cut right through them mainly due to him having a bunch of frames where he doesn't have a hit box on all of his aerials and even when the hit boxes are out, he still can get interrupted by our lemons. Also, all of his ground moves have at least some amount of lag except for d-tilt.

With , she's pretty much an inferior version of Marth mainly, if not, only because she doesn't have a tipper like Marth does; which is a huge trump card to have. Not being rewarded tremendously for spacing gives Mega Man more of a reason to approach Lucina; giving her less options to work with.

As far as videos demonstrating how the match up kind of plays out as of 1.1.6, the best that I could find was this...

I give the / match up 55:45 in Mega Man's favor and the / match up 60:40, also in Mega Man's favor. Marth has the tools to juggle and kill us extremely early with his setups and tipper, but doesn't really have the tools to deal with lemons and Lucina has it worse when she doesn't get rewarded for spacing as opposed to Marth who does. With Lucina having no real fear factor from a distance, Mega Man can afford to be more aggressive.

Mega-Spider Marth actually does have a kill throw; being his u-throw when Marth has rage and kill percents vary from 130%-160% depending on how much rage Marth has. Otherwise, it kills really late. Also, a lot of people don't think Lucina is a low/bottom tier character anymore as she did get the same buff treatment that Marth got minus any tipper related stuff. It's more like Lucina is one of the least played characters on a competitive level because why play Lucina when you can just play Marth when he's just the better version of the two?

 

[Mega-Spider]

Mythzotick Thanks for the info. Yeah, Marth heavily benefits from rage much like DK, and I guess I never really had a Marth U-Throw me with rage.
I never thought Lucina was trash or anything, but I thought a lot of people said that. I guess that's still early meta thoughts creeping in every now and then. Still, Lucina's not much to worry about compared to Marth.

 

[Mythzotick]

Does anyone else have any Marth/Lucina experience?

 

[Diamond Octobot]

...Did anyone call the Marth & Lucina boards ?

 

[ravemaster47]

I've got a littke bit. I'll write up something in a while.

 

[ravemaster47]

Ok, so I have a little experience with marth. Not so much woth Lucina, but the conCelt is still the same.

Marths tip isndeadly, we all know this. He will try to throw out fairs and nais to snuff our approaches and they eat through lemons. But keep the item play up and just keep mixing your shots up to keep the pressure up.

His dtilt is stupid good at poking our shields. But be careful of what follows. An fsmash or jab coukd come out and ruin your day. His side b is pretty annoying but if you block it all. You get the grab. Leafs held is pretty good for gimping his recovery if you go for the stool jump. Just be ready to tech if it trades With his up b. Other than my personal experience, just keep away from him as much as possible and wait for him to come to you.

 

[Reecepect]

Have we discussed pika yet? I recently played a good pika player in bracket and he BOPPED me, like even hitting him was a problem it was so disheartening lol matchup felt borderline impossible, im aware of the voting thing but yeah just asking.

As for marth, i feel like its gotta be in mega's favour as marth's lack of projectile means we dictate the neutral pretty well providing your buster game is on point, just gotta worry about being comboed into f smash due to our weight. The times i've played my scene's resident marth main i've won very convincingly so yeah definitely in MM's favour, not to the point we destroy him or anything but it's not a matchup i dread. Oh gotta look out for his aerials stuffing our shots too. That can be painful

 

[Mega-Spider]

Reecepect Yeah, we talked about Pikachu at one point. If you want to bring him up again, we can discuss him, since I feel that enough time has passed to where we can reopen that book.

 

[Reecepect]

Reecepect Yeah, we talked about Pikachu at one point. If you want to bring him up again, we can discuss him, since I feel that enough time has passed to where we can reopen that book.

Ah apologies, but yeah how do you guys deal with pikachu? His projectile and amazing ability to break MM's zoning, and the fact hes so bloody tiny AND comboes mega to death is making me scared of the match up after that set lol

 

[Mega-Spider]

Ah apologies, but yeah how do you guys deal with pikachu? His projectile and amazing ability to break MM's zoning, and the fact hes so bloody tiny AND comboes mega to death is making me scared of the match up after that set lol

We'll see and wait if anyone has anything else to say on the blue haired swordspeople. If not, we'll see if we can reopen the Pikachu MU. Thanks for giving us a suggestion.
BTW, I'm a fan of your videos.

 

[Reecepect]

We'll see and wait if anyone has anything else to say on the blue haired swordspeople. If not, we'll see if we can reopen the Pikachu MU. Thanks for giving us a suggestion.
BTW, I'm a fan of your videos.

I thought it was you! I've recognised you on my videos. Thank you I appreciate that! I'm trying to be more active on here as i've been taking tournaments more seriously so any discussion on troublesome match ups is good for me!

 

[Xavix]

So does this mean we are finished with the marth/lucina discussion and we are moving to pikachu right now? Just wondering so I can update the title and we can send out some alerts

 

[Mythzotick]

I don't know. I feel like only 4 posts isn't enough even if they do cover the main points of how the match up plays out and I'm also not sure if we should re-open the Pikachu discussion just yet. I don't mind talking about Pikachu. It's just that there are other match ups that would be just as worthy to talk about that have yet to be discussed in this thread.

 

[Mega-Spider]

I think if anything, we should use the old thread to talk about already discussed MUs. If there are any additional notes to be added in that thread, we can add it to the OP.

 

[JesusMorpheus]

Has ZSS ever been discussed? I feel that MU can absolutely body us if we have no idea what to do against her aerial pressure, mix ups, and her recovery options as well

 

[Mega-Spider]

Has ZSS ever been discussed? I feel that MU can absolutely body us if we have no idea what to do against her aerial pressure, mix ups, and her recovery options as well

No, we haven't discussed Zero Suit yet. We considered her before we had the Mario discussion.

 

[Mythzotick]

ZSS actually sounds interesting to talk about next whenever we wrap up the Marth/Lucina match up. Kameme and Nairo just recently played each other back at Umebura S.A.T. so it's still fresh and relevant.

 

[Reecepect]

No worries guys I'll try to find the old pika discussion, I feel ZSS would be a good discussion as I feel like we fall victim to nair set ups but at the same time buster can keep her out pretty well from my experience, would be interested in how you lot view it.

 

[Xavix]

Ok. Zss next, but now we should focus on marth lucina. Lets stay on topic

 

[Mega-Spider]

Okay guys, I have some news to display: The Marth/Lucina boards haven't responded to us. I know that doesn't sound that noteworthy, but when I looked at both their MU sections, they haven't commented on them in a while. Recently joining the Mega Man Discord, I found that there are a lot of knowledge Megs mains that can help us out with MUs we're discussing. What I recommend doing is asking for advice there and apply it to this thread. It'll also help if you credit them for the information, which is what I plan to do when I add more notes to MUs that I'm not too familiar with.

If anyone here can't get Discord or won't use it for any reason, don't worry. Your opinions and thoughts contribute a lot more than you'd think.

 

[JesusMorpheus]

Hmmm. I do have discord but i never use it since my internet doesn't like me using it for voice chat so i forgot about it. I could use it for just chatting and discussing mega man stuff i guess. I need a link to join a discord group right? Can you provide it here?

EDIT: Never mind. A quick search gave me the result. I forgot SB had a search bar lol

 

[Moobussir]

Well, I hope you feel better soon. I know what it's like to not have health on your side, both physically and mentally. Have any of the other Toon Link mains had time to give their assessments?

I'm over a month late but I'm finally here to write what I can about the matchup. Deepest apologies about taking so long, my computer has been in turmoil recently (I can hear the fan overkilling right now), but I'll write my impressions and how we stack up against each other now or never.

This matchup is very much so 50/50. We're similar characters in a sense, but we go about it in slightly different ways. Toon Link aims to get bomb conversions along with projectile poke damage, while Mega Man will use his lemons and Metal Blade among other projectiles to get an opening. As for how our projectiles themselves trade, that's interesting.

Pellets beat Boomerang, and if they can hit Arrows on their slightly tricky trajectory, they also disappear, however, bomb can tank through at least 1-2 pellets. Bombs have 5% HP on them, so if pellets accumulate 5% of damage on the bomb, it'll explode. Tanking the pellets in general would be Toon Link's way of getting in on Mega Man, and could lead in to conversions as well, so it's the most critical part of neutral interactions perhaps. Other then that, Metal Blade and Crash Bomber will tie with the others if I'm not mistaken, but the most important point is the interaction of bombs and pellets.

When Toon Link has a bomb in hand and Mega Man attempts to pressure him, a well-timed bomb could be the answer to that pressure. However, without the bomb, Mega Man can apply so much more pressure, as Toon Link doesn't really have an answer to pellets otherwise, and thus Mega Man can shut down Toon Link fairly well. The Hero's Shield will only come into play in 2 scenarios: If the Toon Link is being silly/janky and intentionally blocks with it, or if he is without a bomb and just HAPPENS to face forward and blocks it. Almost never intentional, but worth mentioning as it MIGHT help Toon Link gain his feet again.

Conversion strength is Toon Link's forte, and he'll be looking to convert his boomerangs and bombs into followups. Arrow can also lead into followups, such as a lead-in to Up-Smash, and they can lock, but that's not a common scenario, unless we attempt the Kamemushi or another setup.(A lot harder for Toon Link over Mega Man since we need to time our Z-drops better to avoid Zair coming out. Trivia!) In general, the projectiles to respect are boomerang and bombs.

Neutral is probably the most important element to this matchup, which is why analyzing it so deeply is beneficial. However, beyond that, edgeguarding would probably go to Mega Man. He is much more capable of covering multiple options of Toon Link while recovering. Toon Link can mix up his options fairly well at ledge, with Up-B and tether, with the latter having length and timing variations on when he chooses to rise. You'll want to read what his most likely choice is based on the situation you present to him recovering, and you'll be able to nail him. Toon Link on the other hand only really has Bomb and Boomerang. He's not as likely to edgeguard with the sword but it is possible, with Fair or Bair, maybe Nair too. A good tech will save you, and even if you get hit away, Rush gives quite a lot of distance, so more often then not you'll be okay.

Both characters have fairly good KO power. Mega Man has Bair, Up-air, Up-Smash and Back-throw, and with setups, Up-tilt among others. Toon Link has Fair, Up-air, Up-Smash, the occasional Bair and the lucky F-Smash, with bombs and boomerang helping lead into most of these. Back-throw for us is a wild card, as even though it's the 3rd strongest strength-wise, our grab is so slow and bad that it's a huge risk to go for. Actually, new paragraph on that!

Okay so Grab comes out on Frame 12, which is very slow, but it is active for 7 frames total (12-18). For that reason, it's possible to catch distant opponents with it, but being so slow means it's not the hardest to see it coming, with extra time then normal to react to a potential grab. And since it's got so much cooldown, it's quite punishable, discouraging usage of it more. You having a Frame 6 grab with standard cooldown, which makes your grab better for beating shield, but Toon Link's will generally grab only with a good reason to (Setup, conditioning, mixup).

Okay I think I've said all I need to say. I think that last paragraph was a bit too much, but I thought it was interesting enough to mention. If you have any other questions, I'll try to pop in more frequently to answer them, but this is what I think right now of it. Mega Man is technically the better character when played correctly, but Toon Link is capable of beating anyone if played well enough. Very much so 50/50 IMO.

 

[Mythzotick]

Thank you Moobussir for your insight on the / match up. Also, don't worry about being over a month overdue because of your computer. Mine has similar problems and it can shut down sometimes when I'm on this website which drives me completely insane so I'm all too familiar with that unfortunately.

Going back to the current match up discussion, I thinks it's safe to say that we've gotten most of what we need to know about the Marth and Lucina match up so if we still want to do ZSS next, then we can go ahead and start discussing the next match up whenever we're ready.

 

[Mega-Spider]

Yeah, I'm down for the idea of doing Zero Suit Samus next. She's a relevant threat, especially with players like Nairo around.

 

[Xavix]

ZSS discussion is starting then! I'll update the title and OP tomorrow.

 

[Megamang]

Regarding marcina...

They have terribly low damaging throws and no true followuos. This means shield is very powerful. Then, you have OoS metal blade toss. If you learn the JCT them into a bair (must do a near perfect RAR) then the MU becomes pretty tough for them to work around. Time the arc on their moves to get a powershield and you can punish hard.


Make them struggle to kill, it is your most important task here. They have a few interesting setups... mostly dont get hit with first hit nair into smashes. For lucina, she can do rising db1 into nair into fsmash for a pretty sick confirm. Stay out of that range!

Confront them offstage before they are in ledgesnap range and their options are actually limited.

Some of their moves rely on range for safety. You can hurt this with metal blade toss OOS, or even a shield drop dtilt mixed in very occasionally.

They struggle to land, so uthrow is a good friend in this matchup. Landing uair can keep a juggle going longer than they want...


Things to watch out for... short hop airdodge can lead into all of their aerials. This is a very powerful tool for anti-zoning. SHAD into uair is a scary combo starter. DB upwards also starts juggles. Their edgeguarding, while much simpler than ours, is deadly effetive. I got 9th at my last weekly because a 160% marth tippered me with fsmash at the ledge, then sourspot faired my airdodge offstage, and it was over. Dtilt leads into grabs and db stuff, and is scary because Marth has an insanely fast walk which he can tilt out of. If he tips dtilt or ftilt on your shield, it is safe. Dont try and punish. Ftilt is silly, its gonna get kills and you arent gonna punish it, its upward arc makes jumping over it pretty risky as well. Finally... use shield like kameme, in quick bursts. If you shield a marth with decent spacing then you arent making any progress, and if you hold shield predictably you will get shield broken and die. Dont do this. Powershields, on the other hand, at the very least get you some pellets, and if you hit a dash powershield you can get a hard punish in sometimes.


Oh yea... dont drop shield on nair. Marths tipper nair is deceptively strong. Its also safe on shield. Marth also has jab into tipper fair, double hit nair, dolphin slash, maybe rising uair... dont try and airdodge this.it'll only work if they mess up, and if they read it theyre gonna get a charged usmash and youll look dumb.


Regarding lucina... she is just as safe, less powerful, her aerial strings can do more damage, and her db1 nair fsmash is stronger. Her fsmash is bonkers actually, center stage is important in this MU because the corner can get you fsmashed early.

I really like single pellets to bait SHAD, then punishing with what i can. For safety and consistency, this is usually a dashgrab. Toss them offstage, dthrow combo if you can, and if you cant do these at the time, uthrow into juggle trap.

Stages to ban: smashville, in my opinion. Marth tipper fair and nair are stupid here, and lucinas fsmash is too.


Sorry this was late, hope it helped.

 

[Mega-Spider]

Remember when we thought about discussing Zero Suit? Well, now's the chance. Sorry for the late start on this, school's a ***** a lot of the time.

Anyway, despite the fact that has lost a little bit of her dominance thanks to characters like Cloud, Zero Suit Samus is nothing to sleep on. She still has very solid kill confirms, combos, damage output, and that paralyzer of hers can be a problem if you aren't careful.

Megs in this MU has to be on point if he wants to win. Paralyzer's not too hard to avoid getting hit by since pellets can destroy it, though I'm not sure if pellets can take out the fully charged version of it. If you do get paralyzed, she'll do her grab to D-Throw to her U-Air string, and at certain percents, an U-Special will come out and kill us. Zero Suit also has fantastic mobility thanks to her great ground speed and aerial speed. It's almost pretty stressful at points since Megs isn't known for having great mobility besides his aerial mobility and acceleration. On the upside, if Zero Suit misses her grab, it is pretty punishable, and she is pretty light so it shouldn't take much for her to die. Just stay on point and you'll be fine.

As for stages, I'm not sure what's the best place to go for Zero Suit. Stages with low ceilings and blast zones sounds like a double edged sword since you could potentially Zero Suit early, but that also means that her D-Throw to U-Special stuff works better. I'd probably go Battlefield since Megs can survive for quite a while on that stage, though Zero Suit can still poke through the platforms with her U-Smash.

EDIT: Don't go on Battlefield. See Mythzotick 's post as to why.

I would provide my opinion on who wins this MU, but honestly I'm not so sure. On the one hand, Megs can survive a good while from Zero Suit's combos, and his kill options can take her out early. On the other hand, Zero Suit's mobility and kill confirms can make Megs sweat quite a bit. I don't have the most experience with the ZSS MU, so I'll leave it you guys to determine who wins.

 

[Mythzotick]

Remember when we thought about discussing Zero Suit? Well, now's the chance. Sorry for the late start on this, school's a ***** a lot of the time.

Anyway, despite the fact that has lost a little bit of her dominance thanks to characters like Cloud, Zero Suit Samus is nothing to sleep on. She still has very solid kill confirms, combos, damage output, and that paralyzer of hers can be a problem if you aren't careful.

Megs in this MU has to be on point if he wants to win. Paralyzer's not too hard to avoid getting hit by since pellets can destroy it, though I'm not sure if pellets can take out the fully charged version of it. If you do get paralyzed, she'll do her grab to D-Throw to her U-Air string, and at certain percents, an U-Special will come out and kill us. Zero Suit also has fantastic mobility thanks to her great ground speed and aerial speed. It's almost pretty stressful at points since Megs isn't known for having great mobility besides his aerial mobility and acceleration. On the upside, if Zero Suit misses her grab, it is pretty punishable, and she is pretty light so it shouldn't take much for her to die. Just stay on point and you'll be fine.

As for stages, I'm not sure what's the best place to go for Zero Suit. Stages with low ceilings and blast zones sounds like a double edged sword since you could potentially Zero Suit early, but that also means that her D-Throw to U-Special stuff works better. I'd probably go Battlefield since Megs can survive for quite a while on that stage, though Zero Suit can still poke through the platforms with her U-Smash.

I would provide my opinion on who wins this MU, but honestly I'm not so sure. On the one hand, Megs can survive a good while from Zero Suit's combos, and his kill options can take her out early. On the other hand, Zero Suit's mobility and kill confirms can make Megs sweat quite a bit. I don't have the most experience with the ZSS MU, so I'll leave it you guys to determine who wins.

thrives on stages that have high platforms in particular, Battlefield and Dream Land 64. Why might you ask? It's because she can get her uair strings going longer thanks to the platforms; increasing the probability of getting an early kill off of an up-b. Expect to play on at least one of those stages regardless if you ban one of those two stages or not, unless the ZSS for whatever reason also decides to ban one of those two stages as well. I'd suggest banning Dream Land 64 because that stage has smaller blast zones compared to Battlefield so we'll be living a little bit longer from the uair strings>up-b and from what I know, Dream Land 64 is considered to be ZSS's best stage.

I'm also not too familiar with the match up, but despite having an amazing mix-up game, having a tether for a grab really hurts her neutral whenever she's vulnerable after whiffing it. Although, she does have arguably the best zair in the game, great ledge coverage options, and her d-smash and down-b are huge trump cards to have in any match up. Outside of having a frame 1 jab and a solid frame 4 oos in up-b, she doesn't really have the best ground game with either slow or laggy options.

Can't exactly say what the mu ratio is as this isn't a common match up. When Kameme went up against Nairo back at Umebura S.A.T., it was for the most part even until game 4 when Nairo hopped on the momentum train and 2 stocked Kameme on Duck Hunt; another potential problematic stage for us. I'm inclined to say the / mu is even, but I can easily see it being 55:45 in 's favor. Who knows. Maybe a year or two from now, Mega Man will be considered one of ZSS's worst match ups. Yeah, I feel like this is one of those roller coaster ride mu's where one minute you're at the top, and then you're at the bottom the next minute.

 

[Mega-Spider]

thrives on stages that have high platforms in particular, Battlefield and Dream Land 64. Why might you ask? It's because she can get her uair strings going longer thanks to the platforms; increasing the probability of getting an early kill off of an up-b. Expect to play on at least one of those stages regardless if you ban one of those two stages or not, unless the ZSS for whatever reason also decides to ban one of those two stages as well. I'd suggest banning Dream Land 64 because that stage has smaller blast zones compared to Battlefield so we'll be living a little bit longer from the uair strings>up-b and from what I know, Dream Land 64 is considered to be ZSS's best stage.

I'm also not too familiar with the match up, but despite having an amazing mix-up game, having a tether for a grab really hurts her neutral whenever she's vulnerable after whiffing it. Although, she does have arguably the best zair in the game, great ledge coverage options, and her d-smash and down-b are huge trump cards to have in any match up. Outside of having a frame 1 jab and a solid frame 4 oos in up-b, she doesn't really have the best ground game with either slow or laggy options.

Can't exactly say what the mu ratio is as this isn't a common match up. When Kameme went up against Nairo back at Umebura S.A.T., it was for the most part even until game 4 when Nairo hopped on the momentum train and 2 stocked Kameme on Duck Hunt; another potential problematic stage for us. I'm inclined to say the / mu is even, but I can easily see it being 55:45 in 's favor. Who knows. Maybe a year or two from now, Mega Man will be considered one of ZSS's worst match ups. Yeah, I feel like this is one of those roller coaster ride mu's where one minute you're at the top, and then you're at the bottom the next minute.

I edited my post to accommodate your explanation as to why Battlefield isn't the best place to go on. Thank you for the info.

Would Smashville be a better option? Something tells me it's a lot better of a stage to be on.

 

[Mythzotick]

I edited my post to accommodate your explanation as to why Battlefield isn't the best place to go on. Thank you for the info.

Would Smashville be a better option? Something tells me it's a lot better of a stage to be on.

Smashville and Final Destination are more than likely our best stage options in this match up. Smashville is good because it only has one moving platform that is low that can also help out our recovery and Final Destination is good because it has no platforms; meaning that she is much more likely to take a stock much later if she doesn't get an offstage kill. Even though it's a very small sample size in that it was only 1 set, the first two games were closer than the last two; with Game 1 taking place on Smashville, Game 2 taking place on Final Destination (the only game Kameme won), Game 3 was on Battlefield, and Game 4 was on Duck Hunt. Going a little more in depth on why Battlefield and Dream Land 64 are bad stages for us in this match up, Nairo was able to capitalize and cause a boat load of damage off of one mistake made by Kameme at around 8:42. Even though we usually prefer stages that have platforms so we can shark those air shooters out, we don't wan't to play on these type of stages as much when the other character is really good at getting vertical ladder kills on us including ZSS.

 

[Megamang]

Flip kick is usually a get out of disadvantage free card for ZSS, but it isnt always in this mu. Air shooter is a godsend for this, since she'll be taking chip damage for her usually ultra safe escape option.


Basic tether grabber stuff applies. Her OoS grab is slow, so nair hitbox is great pressure. She is tall, so zdrop metal blades and uair pressure her hard. Uair is probably safe on shield if you are sliding away and get out asap.

Pellets are your go to here, if you dont have time to grab your metal blade. A single pellet fired can break her grab, earning you chip damage instead of a painful BnB combo.

Boost kick OoS is scary for both characters. If you can bait a missed one, utilt ends ZSS extremely early.

Dont leaf shield on top of her. If she knows the MU she'll spam her intangible-startup utilt and youll take a ton of damage.

Keep in mind her aerials are only useful near the end of her SH, or else they are too high. So pellet from the ground, dont give her rising bair.

If she throws you offstage, avoid her. Dont DI towards the stage trying to get back directly, youll get super spiked by flip kick.

Remember, tether grabbers have no 20 frame lag when they grab the ledge, so watch for her powerful trump. Your trump is strong here as well, but dont expect her to be on the ledge much when she can bypass it for free. Again, uair if she goes above you.

Hmmm... you can be at 150 with her at 75 and still be nearly even. Once she cant combo into kills (nair bair is scary, nair flip kick at the ledge hurts so di away and down iirc, uair stuff has already been discussed) she has to hit a landing bair. Keep shielding. Try and get a ps grab... zair can cause untechable knockback but shes still looking for a bair then. Utilt kills eventually, f and dsmash kill but arent a threat at pellet range.

But. If you die first... ouch. Try and chip her down and kill her without eating a BnB, she is hard to chase down since she is so mobile.

 

[ravemaster47]

I have very little experience here. I just keep away to my best ability and wit for the bthrow kill

 

[Mythzotick]

Well now that BH6 is in the books, I think now would be a great opportunity to talk about the Bayonetta match up after seeing 8 games (1 of them was a crew battle) of this match up played by the best player of each character 3 seperate times within the span of 4 days.

 

[Mega-Spider]

Mythzotick Thanks for reviving the thread. I thought I was going to have to do it, lol.

Anyway, Myth's got a point. After Kameme and Salem had their duel in Big House 6, we need to discuss Bayonetta, and I mean we have to discuss her. We're going to need a lot of participation on this character.

 

[ravemaster47]

I would love some Bayonetta experience. I have very little in my area.

 

[Xavix]

Bayonetta! I'm not too expereinced in this matchup, but one thing is clear: SDI is incredibly important in this matchup. Do not underestimate how useful it is. Anyway, I'll update the OP later tonight or tomorrow.

 

[Mythzotick]

I know this is way over due so I would first off like to apologize for being late on this, but hopefully, I can provide a lot of useful information on this match up with what is going to be an extremely long post because quite frankly...I have a lot to say about "this character" and how these two go at it.

I'm just going to throw this out and say that I for one, despise fighting not only when I'm playing as , but just in general and I think it's safe to say that I'm not the only who doesn't enjoy fighting Bayonetta and it's mainly because of how almost all of her moves flow together very fluidly while having two huge game deciding trump cards in her hand being witch time and witch twist or as I like to call them, b**** time and b**** twist. In a way, I find her to be very similar to that of a spider. You have all of her moves that can combo in to each other very easily as the main structure of her spider web, her two trump cards that act as the sticky silk in order to immobilize her victims, and then you have Bayonetta herself as the spider who once she has her prey trapped via witch time or witch twist, it can be extremely difficult; even impossible at times for you to escape and just have to hope that she either screws up or your sdi is on point. Otherwise, you'll be taking an insane amount of damage and/or will be dying extremely early from either vertical ladder combos (by far the most common kill option), horizontal ladder combos, a witch timed u-smash, f-smash, or d-smash if you're close to the edge or if you're recovering with a recovery that has an active hit box.

As the neutral goes, Bayonetta can close in on Mega Man with quick bursts of movement if she is from a close-ish range with options like after burner kick and diagonal down after burner kick , but you can wall her out if she is from a distance as she has an average run speed (28th-30th), below-average air speed (36-38th), and even an almost bottom 10 walk speed (45-46th). If she goes for heel slide (ground side-b), we can stuff her with lemons, metal blades, and leaf shields...although it's not an option that she should be committing to much anyway as it has poor start up (frame 15) and can be easily punished with a grab, u-tilt, u-smash, etc. If she is in cqc range, her d-tilt is a really good footsie option as it has low start up (frame 7), range, safe on shield when spaced properly, and is an easy combo starter. Witch twist is arguably one of the best OoS options in the whole game with it coming at frame 4, can suck up enemies that are close enough to her, can escape with an after burner kick if you can't react fast enough to punish her with an uair, fair, bair, etc., and it too is also a really good combo starter. When it comes to grabs, she doesn't get much outside of a really late kill throw from f-throw so shielding is a strong option until we get to max rage territory. It's worth noting that her aerials have deceptive range and their hit boxes beat our lemons. Our fair and bair might outrange hers although I'm not entirely sure so someone correct me if I'm wrong on that one. Now despite all of the advantages that we may have over her in the neutral, we can't be too aggressive against her as she has without question the best counter in the game and one of biggest fear factors that can make you second-guess in witch time which I'll go over later in this post.

There's no sugar coating it, Bayonetta far outclasess us in the advantage department. To start with, her jab alone can do as much as 21% on us, which is insane for a jab and that's just the start. Once Bayonetta gets a hit on us, it is very easy for her to rack up a ridiculous amount of damage on us. Just to give you an idea on how high her damage output is, she can do stuff like d-tilt>u-tilt>fair>witch twist>after burner kick>after burner kick>bair that does around 50%. You think that's a lot? How about d-tilt>u-tilt>fair>uair>fair>uair>fair>witch twist>after burner kick>after burner kick>bair that does around 75%. Still not enough? How about what Salem did to Kameme by putting 90% on him in ONE combo on Battlefield. Not only can she do this much damage to us, but she can even get early kills from these same combos; even earlier and easier on stages that have platforms with low blast zones. To make matters worse, she can initiate these combos off of witch time, a counter that comes out fast (frame 5) and is extremely dangerous. Unlike most counters that can punish you hard off of attacks that have high knock back, you can die just by inputting a jab. A JAB! So not only can she perform deadly combos, but she can also punish you when putting lemon pressure on her, just having leaf shield up (almost irrelevant against her), or when you're in the middle of a combo yourself which makes your advantage state less meaningful; which is already lack luster compared to hers even without including witch time into the equation.

Bayonetta also has a much better disadvantage state than we do. She is one of the few characters in the whole game that is almost impossible to gimp; right up there with Shiek. As long as she still has her 2nd jump, she can be all the down diagonally to where you can see her offscreen and she can still come back by using after burner kick>witch twist>dj>witch twist or witch twist>after burner kick>dj>witch twist. Dair does beat after burner kick, but gets completely ignored against witch twist. Meanwhile, she can edge guard us when she either carries us offstage or she can be on stage and use bullet climax (). Thankfully, we can't get punished from witch time when we're recovering since Rush doesn't have a hitbox. I'm not too familar on how to sdi properly against witch twist, but I believe you have to repeatedly tap the c-stick diagonally down in order to escape. Again. If I'm wrong, someone let me know. Bayonetta also doesn't get combod anywhere near as hard as we do in this match up since we have that unfortunate heavy weight+fast faller combination while she is a light weight, albeit she is also a fast faller, that doesn't really matter all that much.

Stages are another issue here since she doesn't really have a bad stage except for maybe Final Destination since she can't really land anywhere and it gives us plenty of room to work around, but it doesn't matter when she can just ban FD. You pretty much just go to whatever stage you're most comfortable. I can see Duck Hunt being a good stage for us since it's a really big stage so it gives us plenty of room like FD does and the platforms aren't as bad as the other stages are for us when we're in trouble.

So with all of that being said, I think this is a bad match up for us. Not as bad as say Shiek or Fox or Pikachu, but it is one of the harder ones in which we can't afford to make too many mistakes. She gets way too much off of combos, almost recovers for free, and makes us play a lot more cautiously than normal due to the threats of witch time and witch twist; thus some what nullifying our biggest strength in our neutral game. Definitely a match up that makes you feel like you're never in the lead.

I've found some videos on youtube that go more in depth than what I wrote here on how the match up plays out and Bayonetta herself so I'll leave that down here if anyone is interested.

Spoiler: Dabuz Analysis

Spoiler: ESAM Stage Select

Spoiler: ESAM Breakdown