Bleeding heart 'competitive players'

[TomatoGod]

This goes out to everyone whining and complaining about how Brawl (and in certain cases Nintendo in general) is somehow attacking the age old establishment of competitive playing.

Simply put: its not.

The way i used to understand it being a 'competitive player' was all about skill, which is why they dont use items. So it seems odd to me, that Brawls evening out of character statistics and removal of various glitches (which to be quite honest, you dont know there are none, just because they removed one thing doesnt mean they didnt add another) is anything but beneficial to competitors.
I mean, if you were truly relying at skill, you would want as little difference between characters as possible. That way your character choice would be purely based on tactics, not on natural character advantages. Plus if all your so called skill was reliant on figuring out how to pull of a glitch, were you really so great? Now, im not denying that many of those glitches required a lot of skill to pull of, but its kinda like beat super mario 64 without getting all the stars (ie. by glitching). sure you can do it, but it doesnt really prove your skill at the game, it proves your skill at cheating the system.
Plus, I hear a lot of people complaining this puts them (meaning 'competitive players') and 'n00bs' on par. Now, to be honest if this is all it takes to reduce you so called elite into beginners, then you were never that skilled to begin with. Im a good player, not upper class but by no means a 'n00b' but i would kick myself if all it took to beat me was a beginner playing marth. The point of balance is to make players rely on something other than knowledge of secrets or special handicaps or bonuses. It makes a good fighter about what it should be: tactics. Its not about memorizing and practicing ridiculous combos (not a brawl trait but one of fighters in general), or learning glitches, or any of that crap.

True skill is winning by virtue of skill, nothing else.






P.s. it only just occured to me to add this, but i know i have only 1 post, i also know ive been reading on these forums for a good while now, so no ad hominem please.

 

[Xanderous]

Why do you put competitive players in quotations?

 

[FalconPunch]

Don't criticize something you know nothing about.

 

[/~Dogma~\]

i would read it but hard on the eyes with the red sry..

 

[Itakio]

I feel compelled to propose a new rule: you need to have at least 100 posts to make a new thread in the GBD. XP

Of course, we would need somebody of high power on the boards to do something about this...

 

[Magus420]

Speaking of bleeding... my eyes say thank you =)

 

[Angrylobster]

This goes out to everyone whining and complaining about how Brawl (and in certain cases Nintendo in general) is somehow attacking the age old establishment of competitive playing.

Simply put: its not.

The way i used to understand it being a 'competitive player' was all about skill, which is why they dont use items. So it seems odd to me, that Brawls evening out of character statistics and removal of various glitches (which to be quite honest, you dont know there are none, just because they removed one thing doesnt mean they didnt add another) is anything but beneficial to competitors.
I mean, if you were truly relying at skill, you would want as little difference between characters as possible. That way your character choice would be purely based on tactics, not on natural character advantages. Plus if all your so called skill was reliant on figuring out how to pull of a glitch, were you really so great? Now, im not denying that many of those glitches required a lot of skill to pull of, but its kinda like beat super mario 64 without getting all the stars (ie. by glitching). sure you can do it, but it doesnt really prove your skill at the game, it proves your skill at cheating the system.
Plus, I hear a lot of people complaining this puts them (meaning 'competitive players') and 'n00bs' on par. Now, to be honest if this is all it takes to reduce you so called elite into beginners, then you were never that skilled to begin with. Im a good player, not upper class but by no means a 'n00b' but i would kick myself if all it took to beat me was a beginner playing marth. The point of balance is to make players rely on something other than knowledge of secrets or special handicaps or bonuses. It makes a good fighter about what it should be: tactics. Its not about memorizing and practicing ridiculous combos (not a brawl trait but one of fighters in general), or learning glitches, or any of that crap.

True skill is winning by virtue of skill, nothing else.






P.s. it only just occured to me to add this, but i know i have only 1 post, i also know ive been reading on these forums for a good while now, so no ad hominem please.

No ones complaining that its gonna put competitive players and casual players on the same level. I guarantee you that competitive players will beat casual players for the most part, same as usual. What everyone is afraid of is that the game will be to shallow to stay interesting for more then a couple months between competitive players. If theres nothing new to learn or attain, whats the use?

 

[Libomasus]

I made out the words "skill", and "cheating." Not only is this thread hard to read, but its also useless.

 

[Maben]

Your text hurts my eyes...perhaps that's why it's the color of BLOOD.

 

[Moochero]

What's the point of posting this?

 

[Crispy4001]

i would read it but hard on the eyes with the red sry..

Really, I wouldn't have read it anyways. That's because I haven't read through the other 95943892398723897 threads on the topic.


These bloggish, "listen to my opinion on something I overheard/I think about this debate" threads need to stop. If you want to express your opinion on what other people are saying ... how about responding in the thread where it was brought up? Or at least where it's being currently discussed.

Don't cry for attention by going straight for the new thread button. Makes these boards a cluster****.

 

[xyouxarexuglyx2]

This goes out to everyone whining and complaining about how Brawl (and in certain cases Nintendo in general) is somehow attacking the age old establishment of competitive playing.

Simply put: its not.

The way i used to understand it being a 'competitive player' was all about skill, which is why they dont use items. So it seems odd to me, that Brawls evening out of character statistics and removal of various glitches (which to be quite honest, you dont know there are none, just because they removed one thing doesnt mean they didnt add another) is anything but beneficial to competitors.
I mean, if you were truly relying at skill, you would want as little difference between characters as possible. That way your character choice would be purely based on tactics, not on natural character advantages. Plus if all your so called skill was reliant on figuring out how to pull of a glitch, were you really so great? Now, im not denying that many of those glitches required a lot of skill to pull of, but its kinda like beat super mario 64 without getting all the stars (ie. by glitching). sure you can do it, but it doesnt really prove your skill at the game, it proves your skill at cheating the system.
Plus, I hear a lot of people complaining this puts them (meaning 'competitive players') and 'n00bs' on par. Now, to be honest if this is all it takes to reduce you so called elite into beginners, then you were never that skilled to begin with. Im a good player, not upper class but by no means a 'n00b' but i would kick myself if all it took to beat me was a beginner playing marth. The point of balance is to make players rely on something other than knowledge of secrets or special handicaps or bonuses. It makes a good fighter about what it should be: tactics. Its not about memorizing and practicing ridiculous combos (not a brawl trait but one of fighters in general), or learning glitches, or any of that crap.

True skill is winning by virtue of skill, nothing else.






P.s. it only just occured to me to add this, but i know i have only 1 post, i also know ive been reading on these forums for a good while now, so no ad hominem please.

I'm going to spit it out before someone else does.

There are only all of about zero glitches used in competitive Smash that are not character-exclusive.

None of said characters are top or high tier.

Virtually every single technique used in advanced/competitive-level Smash is en exploit. It aggravates me when people use the term glitch to describe things that are not.

Now, for me to put in my commentary:

Who's to say that being able to combo or use "hard" techniques isn't skill? It sure as hell is. Your total skill in Smash should be determined by your mindgames/smarts (for lack of a better word), technical skill, comboing, etc. combined instead of just trying to define one single trait of being good as the only thing that determines skill, which I see quite often around here.

 

[Itakio]

P.s. it only just occured to me to add this, but i know i have only 1 post, i also know ive been reading on these forums for a good while now, so no ad hominem please.

Join date: Feb 2008

Hehe.

 

[clowsui]

This goes out to everyone whining and complaining about how Brawl (and in certain cases Nintendo in general) is somehow attacking the age old establishment of competitive playing.

Simply put: its not.

The way i used to understand it being a 'competitive player' was all about skill, which is why they dont use items. So it seems odd to me, that Brawls evening out of character statistics and removal of various glitches (which to be quite honest, you dont know there are none, just because they removed one thing doesnt mean they didnt add another) is anything but beneficial to competitors.
I mean, if you were truly relying at skill, you would want as little difference between characters as possible. That way your character choice would be purely based on tactics, not on natural character advantages. Plus if all your so called skill was reliant on figuring out how to pull of a glitch, were you really so great? Now, im not denying that many of those glitches required a lot of skill to pull of, but its kinda like beat super mario 64 without getting all the stars (ie. by glitching). sure you can do it, but it doesnt really prove your skill at the game, it proves your skill at cheating the system.
Plus, I hear a lot of people complaining this puts them (meaning 'competitive players') and 'n00bs' on par. Now, to be honest if this is all it takes to reduce you so called elite into beginners, then you were never that skilled to begin with. Im a good player, not upper class but by no means a 'n00b' but i would kick myself if all it took to beat me was a beginner playing marth. The point of balance is to make players rely on something other than knowledge of secrets or special handicaps or bonuses. It makes a good fighter about what it should be: tactics. Its not about memorizing and practicing ridiculous combos (not a brawl trait but one of fighters in general), or learning glitches, or any of that crap.

True skill is winning by virtue of skill, nothing else.






P.s. it only just occured to me to add this, but i know i have only 1 post, i also know ive been reading on these forums for a good while now, so no ad hominem please.

You have a valid point, but the problem is that you're ignoring the fact that many of the "glitches" we employed were not absolute like the star skip; rather, that they are based solely on the ability of the player to use them. If I'm good at cheating the system and I can do it consistently, then doesn't that constitute the definition of a skill? My skill, under your conventions, is to "cheat the system"; there are others who just cheat it better than I do. That's all there is to fighting games - people who are better at maneuvering the facets of the game than others.

Now, to correct your point...

He's right. Balancing the game makes it reliant on a large amount of tactical movement. HOWEVER! What he is wrong about is that we don't need the "glitches". Whatever new things there are to assist our game - we need it in order to expand the depth of this great Smash Bros. Right now, it is a very preemptive statement for me to say that kind of stuff, and I will concede that. We have had this for ~5 days...give it 500 more and it'll be all awesome again. It's not fair to this game, and to us if we give up on it now.

 

[Mediator]

This goes out to everyone whining and complaining about how Brawl (and in certain cases Nintendo in general) is somehow attacking the age old establishment of competitive playing.

Simply put: its not.

The way i used to understand it being a 'competitive player' was all about skill, which is why they dont use items. So it seems odd to me, that Brawls evening out of character statistics and removal of various glitches (which to be quite honest, you dont know there are none, just because they removed one thing doesnt mean they didnt add another) is anything but beneficial to competitors.
I mean, if you were truly relying at skill, you would want as little difference between characters as possible. That way your character choice would be purely based on tactics, not on natural character advantages. Plus if all your so called skill was reliant on figuring out how to pull of a glitch, were you really so great? Now, im not denying that many of those glitches required a lot of skill to pull of, but its kinda like beat super mario 64 without getting all the stars (ie. by glitching). sure you can do it, but it doesnt really prove your skill at the game, it proves your skill at cheating the system.
Plus, I hear a lot of people complaining this puts them (meaning 'competitive players') and 'n00bs' on par. Now, to be honest if this is all it takes to reduce you so called elite into beginners, then you were never that skilled to begin with. Im a good player, not upper class but by no means a 'n00b' but i would kick myself if all it took to beat me was a beginner playing marth. The point of balance is to make players rely on something other than knowledge of secrets or special handicaps or bonuses. It makes a good fighter about what it should be: tactics. Its not about memorizing and practicing ridiculous combos (not a brawl trait but one of fighters in general), or learning glitches, or any of that crap.

True skill is winning by virtue of skill, nothing else.






P.s. it only just occured to me to add this, but i know i have only 1 post, i also know ive been reading on these forums for a good while now, so no ad hominem please.

I agree with all of it!!!
ALL OF IT I SAY!!! ALL OF IT!!!

you are so right. em hem

 

[Norm]

I kind of agree with what your saying but at the same time learing to master wave dashing and etc does take a bit of work i\\\'ve tried it a few times and still havn\\\'t gotten used to it but i really dont feel i need it to win sure it might help but it\\\'s more of a nuisance than anything for me to try and use i win plenty without it.

P.S You really need to rethink those text colors buddy reading that was hard on the eyes

 

[xyouxarexuglyx2]

Join date: Feb 2008

Hehe.

You don't need an SWF account to lurk.

 

[Mediator]

Join date: Feb 2008

Hehe.

um you can read threads without making an account.... duh

 

[Ryan-K]

How can you compare breezing through a single player game to a competitive game where everyone has access to the same stuff?

 

[gnosis]

I'm pretty sure when someone claims someone has a 'bleeding heart', they're saying they're overly sympathetic for people, especially ones who claim to be of unfortunate circumstances.

"Bleeding heart liberals" and all.

I just don't think that all these competitive threads have been showing an excess of compassion, is all.

 

[OrlanduEX]

Oh wow. Yet another thread like this.

First of all, you say that you know what you're talking about, but you prove that you don't.
Advanced techniques are not glitches or bugs. They are simply manipulations of stuff that was programmed into the game. And please define "skill". Are advanced techniques not skills themselves?
Casual players love to talk about this wondrous skill that competitive players apparently don't have, but never provide a definition for what it means.

And advanced techniques do not "cheat the system". They push the system to it's limits. Wavedashing, l-canceling and directional influence are not cheating. Using a Gameshark or a modded controller is cheating. Anyone can learn the ATs. Is it unfair if someone uses them against you and you choose not to learn them?
And no one but the casual players themselves would make the claim that competitive players NEED advanced techs to win. Competitive players will always have the strats and so called tactics to beat casual players who don't bother to practice. They just use ATs because it makes the game more competitive and thus more interesting.

And ALL traditional competitive fighting games are about practicing ridiculous combos and memorizing techniques.
Mastery of these things is what sets apart button mashers from intermediates and intermediates from tournament champions. Name one traditional fighting game where mastery of combos and other techniques isn't as critical to success as strategy.

 

[TomatoGod]

Why do you put competitive players in quotations?

Self proclaimed competitive players tend to suffer from some serious hubris.

Don't criticize something you know nothing about.

Be the change you want to see in the world.

I feel compelled to propose a new rule: you need to have at least 100 posts to make a new thread in the GBD. XP.

I often feel there should be a rule about keeping to the point at hand.

And reading the posts

No ones complaining that its gonna put competitive players and casual players on the same level. I guarantee you that competitive players will beat casual players for the most part, same as usual. What everyone is afraid of is that the game will be to shallow to stay interesting for more then a couple months between competitive players. If theres nothing new to learn or attain, whats the use?

first off i thank you good sir for being the first person to make a meaningful post.

Secondly, it seems odd to be so concerned with lack of growth potential. I mean, did all of you honestly conquer all there was to melee the day you got it? No, you had fun, you played against your friends, etc. Lifes about the journey not the destination. Besides, if you play against people on or above your skill level youll never be satisfied. Ive never been discouraged because my brother continually beats me. It just makes me try harder.

Your text hurts my eyes...perhaps that's why it's the color of BLOOD.

FINE! is this better?

 

[Lavos]

Is it Possible to have this topic closed?

The opinion stated has already been said in other topics in far less inflammatory and ignorant ways.

He uses quotes on the words "Competitive Player"
He claims to be good at the game without proof or reputation
He claims that you aren't actually skilled at the game if you use "glitches", you're only good at cheating

It's practically the standard troll. He just forgot to mention that everything will be much more balanced now. Oh wait, he did that too. Does this topic really need to be here?

 

[Libomasus]

Geez, I still don't understand these people. "Cheating the system?" What system? The system you made up in your head from pre-emptive thoughts about video game rules?

Don't even get me started on skill.

 

[Calixto]

I don't get the "The game will be shallow and boring" argument.


There wasn't exactly a whole lot to discover in Melee after Wavedashing and L cancels (unless you count maybe like, the wobble or something), but people still played it anyway.

 

[TheOfficialSonicFanboy]

I think you have an interesting point, however I think you really have yet to grasp the nature of the competitive environment in Smash Bros. A lot of other topics are on this subject for the environment in Brawl, I would suggest you read that to gain a more in depth look at how it functions.

 

[kenkowtow]

This goes out to everyone whining and complaining about how Brawl (and in certain cases Nintendo in general) is somehow attacking the age old establishment of competitive playing.

Simply put: its not.

The way i used to understand it being a 'competitive player' was all about skill, which is why they dont use items. So it seems odd to me, that Brawls evening out of character statistics and removal of various glitches (which to be quite honest, you dont know there are none, just because they removed one thing doesnt mean they didnt add another) is anything but beneficial to competitors.
I mean, if you were truly relying at skill, you would want as little difference between characters as possible. That way your character choice would be purely based on tactics, not on natural character advantages. Plus if all your so called skill was reliant on figuring out how to pull of a glitch, were you really so great? Now, im not denying that many of those glitches required a lot of skill to pull of, but its kinda like beat super mario 64 without getting all the stars (ie. by glitching). sure you can do it, but it doesnt really prove your skill at the game, it proves your skill at cheating the system.
Plus, I hear a lot of people complaining this puts them (meaning 'competitive players') and 'n00bs' on par. Now, to be honest if this is all it takes to reduce you so called elite into beginners, then you were never that skilled to begin with. Im a good player, not upper class but by no means a 'n00b' but i would kick myself if all it took to beat me was a beginner playing marth. The point of balance is to make players rely on something other than knowledge of secrets or special handicaps or bonuses. It makes a good fighter about what it should be: tactics. Its not about memorizing and practicing ridiculous combos (not a brawl trait but one of fighters in general), or learning glitches, or any of that crap.

True skill is winning by virtue of skill, nothing else.






P.s. it only just occured to me to add this, but i know i have only 1 post, i also know ive been reading on these forums for a good while now, so no ad hominem please.

I don't know if you bothered trying to wavedash, SHFFLC, and all the other stuff but I think you're looking at the issue in a rather biased perspective.

Those techniques (or glitches) are what made the competitive aspect of Melee to exist in the first place. Take for example, Pong. A truly simple game that must rely on the skill of the player. Now if the only "move" was to move up and down then it would be a boring game, no chance for a competitive scene. If however, there was added the factor that moving upward rapidly while hitting the ball increased its velocity and perhaps that not missing the ball increases its speed, then the game is seen in a much more "competitive" light.

I don't know if you know how in depth fighting games can get, but take Super Street Fighter Turbo II for example (Super Turbo). David Sirlin explains the advanced mechanics of the game in these videos: link. To say that wavedashing backward to increase the space inbetween two players does NOT increase the variability is, perhaps in my own biased opinion, foolish.

Well all that I have established so far (or at least I hoped to have) is that advanced techniques contribute a great deal to "competitive" play. Now to make the statement that all that is needed to dominate at the game are these tactics is misinformation. Well I could go on to explain the intricacies of the whole competitive world or I could simply redirect you to this topic (I chose the latter).

Basically it boils down to the "mindgames".

I don't know if I sufficiently answered your question, so if you still have some discrepancies then I'll see if I can resolve them.

 

[KosukeKGA]

I agree with all of it!!!
ALL OF IT I SAY!!! ALL OF IT!!!

you are so right. em hem

Scrub-a-dub-dub

 

[Crispy4001]

Does this topic really need to be here?

Does it ever?

 

[shadydentist]

For the love of god, please change your font color.

 

[OrlanduEX]

I don't get the "The game will be shallow and boring" argument.


There wasn't exactly a whole lot to discover in Melee after Wavedashing and L cancels (unless you count maybe like, the wobble or something), but people still played it anyway.

ha ha ha, oh wow.

Try reading some threads in the character specific area of Melee discussions. There are tons of techniques that apply to specific characters that are arguably more important than wavedashing (nothing is more important than l-cancel)

Also, there are craploads of techniques besides wavedashing and l-canceling that apply to all characters like DI, crouch cancel, jump canceled grabs, edgehogging, meteor canceling, ledgehopping, ledgeteching and pivoting to name a few.

 

[Libomasus]

I don't get the "The game will be shallow and boring" argument.


There wasn't exactly a whole lot to discover in Melee after Wavedashing and L cancels (unless you count maybe like, the wobble or something), but people still played it anyway.

Smash is a fun game, but when you add in all the depth that came from Melee's advanced techniques it was so much more fun. Brawl may not be shallow or boring, but it will be more boring than Melee without that extra layer of depth.

 

[RAPEFACE LASERCOCKS]

Everything changes. Melee is still there. It is still f*cking there.

The SF community doesn't abandon old games, there is no reason for the Smash community to do so. There is nothing stopping people from still playing Melee. Thing is, Brawl is just the new, big thing and is going to totally overshadow Melee, and people are just going to have to deal with it if you don't like it.

Sorry, welcome to fighting games Smashers. This is the way the world turns and ****.

 

[Libomasus]

Thats true, but these topics are still annoying.

 

[Lightning Ice]

The only advanced tech that can even be considered a glitch is wavedashing and even that is debatable. Either way it makes the game more deep and gives you more control of your character. Also wavedashing takes skill to use efficiently, just being able to wavedash means almost nothing you have to know when to use it and where to use it.

 

[Itakio]

You don't need an SWF account to lurk.

Yeah, I just have a hard time believing that he signed up just to make this thread, rather than coming from another user sparing his main account the reputation drop that may come from it.

 

[NES n00b]

One, you really don't know what you are talking about.

Two, why did you make a thread about this when there are similar threads everywhere and most complaining threads stopped.

Three, the complaining that they did was too early to do and a little short sighted, but it isn't a stretch to why they think that. If you did know what you were talking about, you would know.

 

[Zant3tsuken]

You make it sound like once you've learnt how to AT, it's use becomes a non factor when considering skill in the gameplay. Your argument is quite weak.

 

[Limey]

The main thing that's annoying me about this thread is the sheer amount of people who are flaming, and simply refusing to comment on what the Op said, other than saying:

"You don't know what you're talking about."

Please, if you're going to comment on this thread, do so to either support or counter the argument in an intelligent way. The only thing flaming does, in my opinion, is make you seem like people who have no argument, which cannot be true, because there has been a few people who have responded intelligently.

Personally, i can see where the OP is coming from.

Granted, i know very little about AT's, but something always sticks in my head. Wavedashing, for example, i have heard, is used a lot to space yourself from your opponent. It's a technique, which once learnt, technically makes it easier to space yourself, because you can do it faster. Therefore, wouldn't it be harder and technically require more skill to space yourself effectively, without using Wavedashing?

L-Cancelling is obviously very useful. I know what it's used for. With it gone, though, wouldn't it mean that you can't be haphazardly using your moves as you fall close to the ground (i understand that this is Smash, and that the game is hectic, but just hear my point) because the lack of L-Cancelling would mean that if you aren't as precise, you leave yourself open?

The point is this. AT's are, regardless of anything, techniques. They are used to make the overall play of the game more fluid and easier so that the person using them can outsmart their opponent, cancel move lag, space themselves, and so on. But they are techniques, and once you learn them, they are invaluble to your play, yes?

If you were to try winning at a tourney without them, it'd be very hard, yes?

So, now that in Brawl, many of them have been removed, doesn't that mean that you have to up your fighting, comboing, etc, even MORE to make up for the lack of ATs?

Bare in mind that i am not, like many other casual players, saying that AT's mean instant win or anything. I'm trying to stress that they're techniques used to make your game easier, and by that i don't mean that in the sense that taking steroids makes muscle gain easier. i mean that learning how to ride a bike makes riding a bike easier. I have no qualms with ATs. I've never used them, but nobody's forcing me to. If i had to for gameplay reasons, i would, but i don't, so i don't. Advanced players want to, so cool, i don't mind.

But my point still stands.

I don't mean this in an offensive way, but the way some AT using people reply to this thread makes them seem more like bitter people who can't stand that their techniques are having someone say something about them. There are a few people who aren't like that, and i commend them. Try to post intelligently, PLEASE.

The OP isn't flaming. He's posting observations, and most of you can't seem to handle it and just flame him. Someone said that they thought he's a different poster who just signed up to post this thread because he didn't want to risk his credibility. Well i've been here for six plus years, and i don't care what you think of me. At the same time, i'm not asking for arguments, i'm just posting my opinion, but i can guarantee that people will flame this, or tell me i don't understand what i'm taling about.

EDIT - See, look at the idiot below me. I know he hasn't got many posts, but why bother quoting that? Good job on the intelligent discussion, buddy!

 

[Wyze]

I feel compelled to propose a new rule: you need to have at least 100 posts to make a new thread in the GBD. XP

Of course, we would need somebody of high power on the boards to do something about this...

Hey, that wouldn't be cool. >_>