Best teams characters?

[EthereaL]

Well obviously none of these are a given. However, they're options. Thunder provides a wall. It forces them to punish Pikachu instead of potentially helping their teammate avoid a gimp or somesuch. Also, I feel as if you're underestimating the thunder-charge...

Care to explain why you don't think so?

Note: all of this is theorycrafting. I've played Brawl for one-week now, haha

 

[zmx]

Well obviously none of these are a given. However, they're options. Thunder provides a wall. It forces them to punish Pikachu instead of potentially helping their teammate avoid a gimp or somesuch. Also, I feel as if you're underestimating the thunder-charge...

Care to explain why you don't think so?

Note: all of this is theorycrafting. I've played Brawl for one-week now, haha

Play high level teams and you'll understand what I mean. They won't just stand there patiently while you spend 5 seconds filling the bucket. Heck they won't even give you the stage space to even attempt it.

Theory crafting is useless until it's applied. A lot of stuff sounds good in theory but never actually ends up working.

 

[vato_break]

i still don't understand how diddy is played in teams

 

[Gnes]

Because he's bad in teams...duh

 

[vato_break]

I think using barrels is the only way diddy is decent in teams TBH

 

[phi1ny3]

This is exactly what I told Zero almost a year ago iirc, and I still think these are the top 3 team combinations, in that order, except I think MK + Snake can handle more team combinations easier than double MK because of the 0% KO trick of up throw to C4, and C4 to tornado is good too. Kirby works well with snake too because of this up throw to C4 trick.

It is not hard to find an opportunity to stand next to each other (just hit the opponent away and walk towards each other, and this is very easy to do on pokemon stadium), and MK+Snake and GW+ZSS/Lucario have many opportunities to do this

ZSS + GW are really good too but they get ***** by a team with a Diddy on it

as far as "proof" for MK + lucario being very strong together, at apex 2010, me and lee didn't drop a game in teams bracket while having no experience together. The Aura boost lucario gets is just too much thanks to the programmers of the game not making a difference between Aura from FFAs and teams (this was overlooked or the programmers were just lazy).

When me and Lee go double MK, or me and Ally go double MK, we do much worse than MK+Lucario or MK+Snake, because MK does better with a teammate that can KO well, and he has super-gimmicks with those 2 teammates as a bonus.

MK is the best carrier alone, but I still think the GW+Lucario team combination is the best vs most teams most of the time.

Stock holding with GW is very easy, just as much as it is with MK, because GW and MK are the best 2 plankers in the game.

Therefore
-Lucario can always remain super strong
-You always have a chance to OHKO Bucket (you can also do this while planking)

I would probably agree with Wario being the 2nd best carrier, and I think ZSS is underrated in general in teams.

I think you guys should listen to Zero more, because most of the things he says have a good deal of accuracy to them.

Funny thing was Top 2 teams were MK + Lucario and Kirby + Lucario at Apex 2010 lol.

Lucario tbh is still good even without anubis because of his versatility. He can be a carry, a killer, and even a stock tank, but you have to make the most of your aura in each role. This is why even players who didn't commit to Anubis like Atomsk + Zucco did so well, as long as you have a partner that can help you avoid one of your main weaknesses as lucario in doubles (edgeguards offstage), Lucario can be pretty good.

His AS is probably one of the main reasons alone he gels so well, even Ness/Lucas have done moderately well w/ lucario on their team (like Mekos + Junebug). That and pretty much anyone who can help him line up his nasty kill moves like his AS for free can make for a decent teammate (hence why Trela's placed decently even on national levels with Olimars)

Fun Fact: The name "Anubis Strategy" was something that me and Jerm came up with for our team name after we had learned of the things that Lee's Lucario had done in Doubles with M2K all the way back at CoT4. I still find it funny that everyone calls it that now lol. We almost cried when we first tested it out on someone's Jiggs in friendlies. Needless to say, we never saw that Jiggs again.

lucario4life

But yeah, ban main Lucario, please.

I'm partially to blame. I saw your doubles name a couple of times, and when I talked with a couple of Lucarios, I started mistakenly calling the strat itself "Anubis", lol

 

[EthereaL]

Play high level teams and you'll understand what I mean. They won't just stand there patiently while you spend 5 seconds filling the bucket. Heck they won't even give you the stage space to even attempt it.

Yet again, I'm just speaking of options.

Just trying to have a good discussion about it. If you could, y'know, provide actual discussion instead of instantly assuming it's bad ("you won't have 5 seconds to do it..." come on. It takes about a quarter of a second, if you time it properly.).

Theory crafting is useless

Haha.

 

[zmx]

^Taking what I partially said and ignoring the rest of the sentence. GJ.

Also it takes more than a quarter of a second just to do thunder let alone get on a platform with GnW in the ideal position. I'm not saying it's a bad idea but until I see a team utilizing it greatly and taking big names with it, it is 100% theory. And theory without application is nothing.

 

[Snow Shard]

I like this topic, and I gotta agree with Zero and M2K on it. If u can get the GaW and Lucario gimmick working than your set- best team idea... On the other hand I've seen horrible Lucario and GaW teams that bucket nothing, and the GaW gets with aura spheres instead. If you can't get the gimmick down, or you don't plan on using the gimmick, then MK + Lucario (for the reasons mentioned by M2K) and MK and MK are best.

I do like Rob for doubles as well mainly because his recovery is awesome and his laser throws everyone off balance, and it keeps going even after it hits someone unlike Pit's arrows or Pikachu's thunderbolt so u don't have to worry AS much about you partner getting in your way... tho hes pretty easy to juggle by two opponents if he gets teamed on lol

 

[zmx]

I like this topic, and I gotta agree with Zero and M2K on it. If u can get the GaW and Lucario gimmick working than your set- best team idea... On the other hand I've seen horrible Lucario and GaW teams that bucket nothing, and the GaW gets with aura spheres instead. If you can't get the gimmick down, or you don't plan on using the gimmick, then MK + Lucario (for the reasons mentioned by M2K) and MK and MK are best.

I do like Rob for doubles as well mainly because his recovery is awesome and his laser throws everyone off balance, and it keeps going even after it hits someone unlike Pit's arrows or Pikachu's thunderbolt so u don't have to worry AS much about you partner getting in your way... tho hes pretty easy to juggle by two opponents if he gets teamed on lol

For similar reasons I think Zelda is more viable in doubles. Din actually becomes a decent projectile much like ROB's lasers as she can interrupt anyone from anywhere and it can catch people off guard up high and gimp them as well.

Kill power is also always nice. She needs a very strong support partner though to help clear space while she's recovering/trying to land.

Best support characters in doubles:

MK, Pika, GnW, Wario, ROB, Kirby, Puff

I might be missing a few.

Edit:

With MK gone I wonder what the most popular doubles character will be. So far it seems it is Wario. It makes sense, he's essentially a worse version of MK for doubles.

 

[Ussi]

That's defensive support, what about offensive supports like Ike, DK, DDD, etc? (kill set up throws and strong kill follow ups)

 

[EthereaL]

^Taking what I partially said and ignoring the rest of the sentence. GJ.

Also it takes more than a quarter of a second just to do thunder let alone get on a platform with GnW in the ideal position. I'm not saying it's a bad idea but until I see a team utilizing it greatly and taking big names with it, it is 100% theory. And theory without application is nothing.

Thunder. GAW jump > bucket (takes about a quarter of a second for the jump/bucket to fill).

Also, you're such a hypocrite.

Also, theorycrafting is exactly what I'm doing. I'm discussing; it interests me.

 

[zmx]

That's defensive support, what about offensive supports like Ike, DK, DDD, etc? (kill set up throws and strong kill follow ups)

I should have been clear. My mistake. Yes, I was referring to defensive support when I referred to support. I didn't think people thought of support as any other thing.

Hmmm, let's see. I wouldn't really call DDD offensive support. His only really strong reliable kill move is utilt. Yes I realize in doubles you can get away with more laggy moves but I still don't see the likes of fsmash hitting enough against good doubles players.

Dk and Ike definitively are but I've noticed their huge hitboxes on their kill moves often hinders the ability to use them. Whenever I go these characters and am looking for easy kills, often my partner is also in the way so I can't do it as much as I'd like.

If you watch the likes if Will and San in doubles you'll notice even they don't get as many early kills as you'd expect from Ike and DK in doubles.

GnW is a whole different story though. His air mobility and fast safer smashes with relatively (when compared with Ike and DK) small hitboxes (especially fsmash) allows for a lot of early kills especially since it allows him to punish small lag and down time. Fair is also a solid kill option when fresh and is also great for edge guarding. In terms of sheer kill power I'd say he's the best in doubles.

 

[zmx]

Thunder. GAW jump > bucket (takes about a quarter of a second for the jump/bucket to fill).

Also, you're such a hypocrite.

Also, theorycrafting is exactly what I'm doing. I'm discussing; it interests me.

I never took half of your sentence out of context in a desperate attempt to prove you wrong which you just did. If I had, I'd agree that would be hypocritical. I asked you to justify absurd completely sentences you typed which make no sense under ANY context. Mainly that anyone can perfect their spacing and punishes when no one actually has. Just admit you were wrong and get over it. Everybody is wrong at some point.

I said it takes more than that just to do thunder on the platform. The whole procedure does NOT take only 15 frames. Not even close. At the same time I agreed several times that it could be very useful when given time and space to do it (such as after knocking both your opponents away a relatively large distance). So I'm not sure why you are arguing with me.

There is nothing wrong with theory crafting, I do it all the time. But expect people to oppose them since you can't show any real examples of them working.

 

[Alacion]

Zelda isn't as bad in doubles as she is in singles. It's a shame there's only a small handful of people that use Zelda in doubles

Problem is she needs a partner that is more aggro and able to keep her safe. The reward for doing this is good though.

 

[phi1ny3]

Another reason Zelda is better in doubles than in singles: It's harder to commit to "camping" a character 1v1 in doubles. This is one of Zelda's biggest banes in singles, but with it gone, you have to actually play a little more into her zoning.

 

[Player-3]

Luigi top 5 teams char

 

[Mekos]

I feel the American metagame for dubs is too immature to say such a thing. There is so much potential for many characters in teams and we truly haven't seen close to everything yet.

But currently, if both players are using teamwork I say the best teams characters are
Mk, G&W, Lucas, Snake, and pikachu. Just my personal opinion. I didn't put lucario up there because he can be team gimped very easily. Two players working in sync to not let him recover is a terrible situation for him.

In teams you want a character that has various factors such as a good recovery, have a good ability to followup, stun in their attacks(ex. Lucas and pikachu's electricity stuns and allows for easy followups), kill power, etc.

With that said I honestly feel luigi is the worst teams character. All he has in my opinion is kill power. His attacks don't allow for his partner to follow up well at all and he can easily be team gimped. I agree with yall about Zelda. She has great potential to be amazing in dubs. Someone should take up the challenge. I've done some created some craziness with zeldas before. Like her up smashing, me hitting her back toward her, and her upsmashing again. And repeating as many times as possible. her moves also have elemental effects and element attacks have good stun which allow for good team combos

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Explain to me why Lucas has better recovery than Lucario, in doubles? Because he has hitboxes on his upB? Is that really his saving grace? I'm not sure it's THAT big a deal. If 2 people are edgeguarding you, and your teammate isn't helping you, I don't know how much that'll really save your life.

Lucas has a lot of good things going for him in doubles, yes. Is he better than a lot of characters as a partner? Sure. Better than Lucario? No. Lucario's Aura, alone, makes him a top contender in doubles.

 

[infiniteV115]

Dude, Lucas' recovery is amazing, in singles AND doubles. Judging by your post, it sounds as if you've never heard of magnet pulling or his super sideB jump (I don't know what it's called)

Edit: Ok maybe not amazing, but it's definitely good, and that alone makes it better than Lucario's XD

 

[#HBC | Joker]

I'll admit I'm not very knowledgable about Lucas, but I find it hard to believe that, whatever information it is that I'm not privy to, is something that makes Lucas marginally more viable than Lucario in doubles play. To write Lucario off based on, "Well, if 2 people doubleteam him, he's really easy to edgeguard." seems stupid. How many characters can REALLY stand up against 2 people simultaneously edgeguarding them? If that's the only criteria for doubles, then I guess that list is accurate. Most people, myself included, are likely inclined to disagree.

I am curious though, what's the deal with Lucas' recovery?

 

[Sarix]

Zelda isn't as bad in doubles as she is in singles. It's a shame there's only a small handful of people that use Zelda in doubles

Problem is she needs a partner that is more aggro and able to keep her safe. The reward for doing this is good though.

I actually find characters like Peach are a great teammate for Zelda who can get into the opponent's face and cover the air for her. Albeit there both aren't exactly great at surviving but together they become a fairly solid and formidable zoning team since Peach has great pressure options and Zelda's can easily support her without fear of burning her since Peach's Nair negates it quite well.

 

[Ussi]

I should have been clear. My mistake. Yes, I was referring to defensive support when I referred to support. I didn't think people thought of support as any other thing.

Hmmm, let's see. I wouldn't really call DDD offensive support. His only really strong reliable kill move is utilt. Yes I realize in doubles you can get away with more laggy moves but I still don't see the likes of fsmash hitting enough against good doubles players.

Dk and Ike definitively are but I've noticed their huge hitboxes on their kill moves often hinders the ability to use them. Whenever I go these characters and am looking for easy kills, often my partner is also in the way so I can't do it as much as I'd like.

If you watch the likes if Will and San in doubles you'll notice even they don't get as many early kills as you'd expect from Ike and DK in doubles.

GnW is a whole different story though. His air mobility and fast safer smashes with relatively (when compared with Ike and DK) small hitboxes (especially fsmash) allows for a lot of early kills especially since it allows him to punish small lag and down time. Fair is also a solid kill option when fresh and is also great for edge guarding. In terms of sheer kill power I'd say he's the best in doubles.

There is also being able to set up kills/combos which Ike does with f/bthrow, DDD does with dthrow, and DK does with cargo dthrow. Basically throws that are very easy to follow up because of the tragectory of the throw.

Though i guess any throw can be followed up with practice.. Those throws can be followed up very easily. I wish more people would try to combo out of throws. A simple d/uthrow to a uair combo can work especially if you are a character that moves fast in the air. It is a bit gimmicky rely on throw combos, but it shouldn't be hard to implement with awareness of your partner

I'll close with a character stuck at offensive support are those chars who aren't that good alone.

 

[The BSC]

My favorite in Melee was Falcon/Link. Link's Hookshot + Falcon Punch = Wins.

In Brawl, I think Ness/Lucas is a monster team, capable of healing themselves over and over again.

 

[Shaky]

Ness and Lucas are only good with ZSS or Pikachu as a team partner in my opinion. I personally think Ness/ZSS is one of the best teams and counters every Anubis (lucario + planker) team (PKT2 kills at like 40), but that's just me. Even though I have results to back up my argument, people usually underrate Ness and ZSS in teams anyway.

 

[-LzR-]

Probably our best teams player is a Ness main and the stuff he can do is insane. All those spikes and PKT bull**** is hard to avoid with the constant pressure of his Fox partner who can also heal him pretty quickly given the chance.

 

[Yink]

Ness and Lucas are only good with ZSS or Pikachu as a team partner in my opinion. I personally think Ness/ZSS is one of the best teams and counters every Anubis (lucario + planker) team (PKT2 kills at like 40), but that's just me. Even though I have results to back up my argument, people usually underrate Ness and ZSS in teams anyway.

You could argue Ness or Lucas would probably be good with a strong lead too (as in, you don't have to heal, though it's pretty much the reason you'd make the team). So like say with Snake.

Still, Ness is pretty fabulous in doubles thanks to quick kills but really needs a good support if healing isn't going on. PKT's tail also saves anyone and does like 1%.

 

[Host Change]

Since it hasn't really been mentioned yet in the topic, what do you guys think about Falco in doubles?

I think he's good as a support role and has a lot of potential, but I have yet to get a lot of 2v2 experience personally. I've been to quite a few tournaments but I've yet to compete in teams. Next tournament I go to though I'd really like to play doubles, and I'm trying to decide if I should go with my main or try somebody else out.

Thoughts? Also the other two characters I play a lot besides Falco are Donkey Kong and Lucas. I know Lucas can be good with the right teamup, but I would think DK would have problems in teams because of his size.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Overall I think Falco is significantly weaker in doubles. He's really easy to gimp, which just gets easier in doubles. His lifespan comes from his ability to stay away from his opponent when he needs to. Not gonna happen in dubs. His CG becomes pretty useless since it will get interupted by the teammate. He's got lasers and the reflector, so at least there's that.

He's still Falco though, so if he's the character you're most skilled with, he's probably your best choice. If you're confident in your Lucas or your DK, they are both pretty solid. DK's size won't hurt him too much since he's got the range to go with it. You can only learn what works best for you by trying it out.

 

[Mekos]

Ness and Lucas are only good with ZSS or Pikachu as a team partner in my opinion. I personally think Ness/ZSS is one of the best teams and counters every Anubis (lucario + planker) team (PKT2 kills at like 40), but that's just me. Even though I have results to back up my argument, people usually underrate Ness and ZSS in teams anyway.

Yea I strongly disagree with this. But hey it all depends on how u play. The way I play dubs and think it should be played, any character/team is viable(can be good) in dubs competitive play. Of course some more than others. But Ness and Lucas are def at the top of the tier list for dubs.

They both have great shield pressure, powerful punishes, and their attacks allow for easy follow ups. Their attacks have elemental power that stuns, which allows for the easy followups. It's not all about healing. It's about the utilizing dubs smarts. If healing is one of your tactics then that is good. But trust its all about the dubs smarts(utlizing team spacing, team shield pressure, team gimping, punishing, and following up). M2k and I have never lost a match in tourney or friendly for proof.

Dubs is not about two 1v1 battles which is what we see mostly. It's about working together to cut off options and sticking to your team tactics and strategy. There are many team tactics that ness and lucas can create with the cast other than characters that can heal them. Healing is simply one tactic.

@PrivateJoker - I disagree with this as well. He is not way worse in dubs. He just needs to be using teamwork. A falco playing 1v1 and sometimes getting jumped is bad in dubs yes. But a falco with a partner covering him and following up with him can be amazing. Falco has alot of good moves(His down throw, jab, down air, etc) that allow for easy followups that give heavy damage. Watch this vid for example. Watch how I utilize dubs smarts with this falco. A partner utilizing team spacing with the falco can rack up % so fast man! It's awesome.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieMjIbatoNw

 

[Dexident]

I'll admit I'm not very knowledgable about Lucas, but I find it hard to believe that, whatever information it is that I'm not privy to, is something that makes Lucas marginally more viable than Lucario in doubles play. To write Lucario off based on, "Well, if 2 people doubleteam him, he's really easy to edgeguard." seems stupid. How many characters can REALLY stand up against 2 people simultaneously edgeguarding them? If that's the only criteria for doubles, then I guess that list is accurate. Most people, myself included, are likely inclined to disagree.

I am curious though, what's the deal with Lucas' recovery?

I've got a Lucario main in my pocket so I am hesitant to disregard him in doubles. That being said, Lucas has a far superior recovery. I would almost say that his up - b having hitboxes is alone enough to make it better, but also there is magnet pulling and side b pushing.

These allow Lucas to more successfully get back on stage than Lucario.

Now once on stage... I think I would much rather be playing an out numbered Lucario then Lucas.