best rule to discourage camping

[Jackie]

Why is 8 minutes still the standard? We wouldn't have 8 minutes of Jiggs vs Young Link.

I would love 4 minute matches but that's unfair to floaty mains.

Spoiler

I can think of some reasons why a shorter time limit would actually encourage camping, but I just really want to know why I haven't seen much talk on the boards for changing the time limit yet people whine so much about other camp-affecting rules.

 

[Bones0]

1. You should have posted this in the Ruleset Discussion thread.
2. Camping # stalling.
3. The time limit should be extended to reduce stalling, not shortened. The longer the match, the more difficult it becomes to time people out.
4. I haven't seen any significant complaints about the current rules used to prevent stalling.
5. Stalling isn't exactly rampant, which is why it is hardly discussed. It only occurs on certain stages and in certain matchups, and even when it is considered beneficial for a player to stall, they often don't anyway.

 

[FrootLoop]

why do you want to discourage camping?

 

[Xyzz]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aU7G-A4D4nA
vs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLmwOnmYlyI


Do I need to elaborate further?

 

[Jonas]

Yes, you do. You can't just dump a random video and expect everyone to see something gamebreaking in it.

 

[Beat!]

Yes, you do. Entertainment shouldn't be a factor as long as the strategy isn't broken/unstoppable.

lol ninja

 

[SamusPoop]

Question what is the percent of matchs that end with a time-out?

Another question how many of these players make it to finals in percent form?

If You say 1% wtf I disargee

 

[Jonas]

Look, time-outs happen. They also happen in Street Fighter, Tekken and pretty much all other fighting games. The time limit is there to keep matches from growing too long and taking too much of the tournament's time, not to deter players from playing too passively.

 

[1048576]

Um, yes...?

Damn ninja'd x4

 

[Paju]

Seriously, there's nothing wrong with camping. If you can't beat player who camps, then it's your own fault and you need to do something for it so it doesn't happen again.

 

[kevo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aU7G-A4D4nA
vs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLmwOnmYlyI


Do I need to elaborate further?

I don't buy this sentiment. To a degree, making the game entertaining to watch is a legitimate goal of the ruleset, but it shouldn't be the dominant factor. What's "entertaining" is subjective anyway. To be honest, I liked Armada's set against Hbox at Genesis 2: it's different. The pacing was more like a baseball or soccer match. I don't want Melee to ALWAYS be like that, but it's unique and different. I think HMW was overreacting.

 

[Jonas]

The thing I like most about the match is that Armada picked Young Link SPECIFICALLY because Young Link is good at outcamping Jigglypuff, where camping is usually Jigglypuff's forté (or at least the one most heavily utilized by Hungrybox). It also shows Armada's knowledge of the metagame and his willingness to put in hard work to overcome his weakness. If we installed rules to prevent all of this, I think Melee would end up a poorer game.

 

[kevo]

I don't want to derail my topic but one more comment on that match:

I HATE that sentiment to not cheer for someone because they are playing "gay". Armada and Hbox are playing to WIN. That's the POINT of tournaments. This match was one of the most entertaining I've ever watched because you can feel their emotions throughout. The tension, strategy, and frustration are really evident and contribute to the match. It's not all about APM and crazy tech skill; sometime you have to sit back and watch the chess game. (ps: still better than Brawl)

 

[hectohertz]

yeah i had fun watching the set.

on game 1 when it came down to the last percent, everyone who was watching the stream at my house jumped off the couch and was screaming. it was pretty hype

 

[crush]

yeah i had fun watching the set.

on game 1 when it came down to the last percent, everyone who was watching the stream at my house jumped off the couch and was screaming. it was pretty hype

I agree. Everyone listen to this guy, he beat kevinM (in tournament)

 

[Strong Badam]

yeah i had fun watching the set.

on game 1 when it came down to the last percent, everyone who was watching the stream at my house jumped off the couch and was screaming. it was pretty hype

nothing compared to the crowd at genesis 2 itself. the whole building went crazy. it was the hypest moment of the tourney

 

[Zodiac]

hbox is one of the only players that plays gay enough for us to wonder about this topic, but since we seemed to have found a counter to his playstyle in the last year I dont think its much of an issue.

 

[ShroudedOne]

*sigh*

The fact that this thread exists is a testament to the sheer stupidity of some people in this community.

 

[mesa23]

can someone link me one of the matches where hbox camps or whatever?

aside from that one genesis 2 set i don't think i've ever really seen him do anything i'd call "camping"

 

[Strong Badam]

It's difficult to define what exactly camping is, but a lot of Hungrybox's playstyle is keeping a positional advantage spacing attacks while not explicitly approaching very often at all. Players like Mew2King do it too but it's just not as obvious or irritating because after you hit him you still get a decent combo off.

 

[Sinji]

The thing I like most about the match is that Armada picked Young Link SPECIFICALLY because Young Link is good at outcamping Jigglypuff, where camping is usually Jigglypuff's forté (or at least the one most heavily utilized by Hungrybox). It also shows Armada's knowledge of the metagame and his willingness to put in hard work to overcome his weakness. If we installed rules to prevent all of this, I think Melee would end up a poorer game.

Agreed. His experience and knowledge of the game allowed him to expose Hungrybox'es weakness at pound V and Genesis 2. As you said about a rule or rules preventing this, it would seriously drop Melee's status.

 

[Twinkles]

*sigh*

The fact that this thread exists is a testament to the sheer stupidity of some people in this community.

To be fair, there are stupid people everywhere

 

[Xyzz]

I have no problem with anybody playing as "gay" as the ruleset allows him to play and I'll happily cheer for the players when I'm at the venue. I just find aggressive matches far more entertaining to watch, and I'm pretty sure most people do and therefore I wholeheartedly support a ruleset promoting that style.
That being said, I feel the current / upcoming one are fine. It takes two people playing defensive, and not just one, so everything is cool (:

 

[MasterShake]

8 min. is perfectly fine, I've seen legit matches in which the timer went past 7 min.

 

[Sinji]

Iv'e seen matches where both players have excellent DI and the duration of the match is up to 6 minutes and 30 seconds.

 

[Kal]

3. The time limit should be extended to reduce stalling, not shortened. The longer the match, the more difficult it becomes to time people out.

Conversely, however, the longer the match, the less likely the losing player is to approach. So while it may reduce the likelihood of timing your opponent out, it might actually increase the amount of camping. I don't know either way, honestly, since this depends on how likely your opponent is to observe the clock and decide something along the lines of "well, I'm running out of time, now is the time to approach," as well as other game-specifics. I personally prefer a shorter timer, since it forces the losing player to approach sooner. At the same time, it encourages winning players to try and time out the opponent, so it's something of a "pick your poison."

I don't think we should put any effort into reducing camping via the ruleset anyway.

 

[The Star King]

I don't know about that, Kal. How common is it for somebody to base their decisions on approaching based on the timer? I think it's more likely for someone to decide whether or not to time their opponent out based on the timer, since that kind of strategy is a long-term goal that revolves around the timer.

 

[Kal]

Like I said, it's game-specific, and you can make a good case for it not being as relevant to Melee. However, an obvious extreme is if you are losing and the timer is running extremely low, in which case you tell yourself that you absolutely have to approach. So the obvious contrapositive of this is that, if you are losing, and the timer isn't even close to running out, why bother approaching? Why not simply wait for an opportunity for your opponent to make a mistake?

In practice, it's probably not as big an issue, since most people lack such patience in the first place. This is somewhat more a theoretical discussion specific to high-level play. I also would urge us to avoid considering "how common" it is as a factor, since that is just a reflection of the current metagame, and not an issue with the game itself.

 

[Bones0]

Like I said, it's game-specific, and you can make a good case for it not being as relevant to Melee. However, an obvious extreme is if you are losing and the timer is running extremely low, in which case you tell yourself that you absolutely have to approach. So the obvious contrapositive of this is that, if you are losing, and the timer isn't even close to running out, why bother approaching? Why not simply wait for an opportunity for your opponent to make a mistake?

In practice, it's probably not as big an issue, since most people lack such patience in the first place. This is somewhat more a theoretical discussion specific to high-level play. I also would urge us to avoid considering "how common" it is as a factor, since that is just a reflection of the current metagame, and not an issue with the game itself.

Because your opponent doesn't have to approach, and could just let the clock run down... DERP

 

[Kal]

In that case, neither player approaches. Is that not camping?

 

[Mahie]

When I read the thread I feel like when you camp you go to some wonderful forest where you just chill and smoke weed with deers while the timer runs out.
Your opponent isn't supposed to let you have it your way.
If both players have decided to camp then so be it, something will happen eventually, and matches like Hbox vs Armada @Genesis2 are really interesting in the way that every single hit counts so much more, I don't know if it's just me but I don't mind watching spacing battles like that. Not all the time, but it doesn't happen all the time anyway.


PS : I'm surprised no one linked to this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTNaAUJZz5k

 

[Bones0]

In that case, neither player approaches. Is that not camping?

You asked why would the losing player approach if there's plenty of time left. I was simply pointing out that he has to approach eventually. By wasting time as the loser, you are only making it harder and harder to come back.

 

[The Star King]

In that case, neither player approaches. Is that not camping?

No, the losing player will presumably approach. There is no reason not to if you will eventually be forced to approach anyways, unless you are taking a moment to collect your thoughts or something.

 

[Massive]

There's always the option of removing the timer completely.

Most matches don't take more than 6 minutes tops, and I don't understand why timing someone out should even be considered a legitimate strategy in this game to begin with.

 

[kevo]

The dichotomy of approaching vs. camping is very similar in boxing. If you approach and attack your opponent, you open yourself up to counter attacks, and it burn endurance. Boxers are usually looking out for their spacing and throw quick jabs before quickly falling back into their defensive shell.

If someone is behind by a significant margin then they are pressed to attack, looking to score quick points or get a KO, even if it means brawling (lol).

 

[Beat!]

Boxers are also really good at shield pressure and edge guarding.

I don't think they're very good at dealing with laser camping on Hyrule though. What are they gonna do, throw their gloves?

 

[Mr Postman]

I don't buy this sentiment. To a degree, making the game entertaining to watch is a legitimate goal of the ruleset, but it shouldn't be the dominant factor. What's "entertaining" is subjective anyway. To be honest, I liked Armada's set against Hbox at Genesis 2: it's different. The pacing was more like a baseball or soccer match. I don't want Melee to ALWAYS be like that, but it's unique and different. I think HMW was overreacting.

I agree 100% I love that set and I'm not a campy player at all

 

[Thanos828]

The dichotomy of approaching vs. camping is very similar in boxing. If you approach and attack your opponent, you open yourself up to counter attacks, and it burn endurance. Boxers are usually looking out for their spacing and throw quick jabs before quickly falling back into their defensive shell.

If someone is behind by a significant margin then they are pressed to attack, looking to score quick points or get a KO, even if it means brawling (lol).

This is pretty much the way fighting works most of the time

I can say personally in TKD it's much more effective to wait and counterattack when grounds are even

There are certainly ways to be offensive but when sparring is generally even trying to get in and actively score points generally makes you more vulnerable to getting counterattacked by back kicks/crescent kicks or stopped by check kicks and giving your opponent more chances for points

From that standpoint someone who is on the defensive has a lot of blocking options in TKD, for almost any kind of situation (although blocks can usually be worked around by mixups by the person on the offensive)

It's also even more valid when you realize that the more you stay on the offensive the more energy you lose and the overall less effective you become in a sparring match (This may not apply to smash that much, considering it's doesn't take as much muscle strain and activity)

This isn't to say that defense is just broken in nature, but defense is a lot less risky/punishable (there are less openings) which is why defensively natured styles often have overall greater performance in general

 

[kevo]

Can't wait for the Paquiao vs Mayweather hype money match next summer. Hopefully neither of them john out of it. Paquiao's pillars too good.

 

[KirbyKaze]

My understanding is that it's 8 minutes because a minute is allocated per stock. They sometimes used 7, though, because barring sudden death situations you can't have all 8 stocks disappear at once. Or something like that.