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Best Buy Demo Discussion - What do you think of Zelda in Smash 4?

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Erotic&Heretic

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That's good to hear!

I'll especially love to troll more with Farore's Wind. Ah, the good ol' days where I spammed Mewtwo's Teleport, changed suddenly my pattern and landed a Smash in the back of my enemies :troll: I managed to do the same with Zelda, but I wasn't as effective.
 

ihskeyp

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Zelda seems to have improved, very excited to use her. I'm bothered by the people who say 'she will be bottom tier again'... Really tier list's shouldn't even be discussed yet considering we have not seen nearly enough footage or played the game enough to know where characters will be placed on the list.
 

Final Fujin 2

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Out of curiosity, did anyone try love jumping? Or are we just assuming it was removed?
Sis our character is looking like a FAILURE.
Sakurai failed to fix 80% of her problems and this is NOT good.

No one gives a **** about whether she can love jump or not.




A damn MESS.






Reposting this

Din's Fail getting worse range, a smaller hitbox, STILL putting her into freefall and not letting her fall slower.
Smash attacks still having people pop out of them (keep in mind most of these are casuals who weren't trying to SDI, or let alone even know what it is.).
Up tilt, one of ha best kill moves getting much weaker.
She can't transform to Sheik


And what buffs does she have?

B throw is stronger.
Farore's getting a litte faster and not falling straight down?
HOPEFULLY her grab is better?

I don't even know tbh...

Like let's face it, unless she is SEVERELY changed from the way she is now or there's a move that's super good that were missing....
she is going to be bad.

All of her aerials appear the same, so she's going to be pretty bad in the air again.
Easily juggled, and unreliable aerials.
I wish he would have given her a new f air instead of the same move for b air and f air.

She's still slow and not going to be able to approach, din's looks worse and not faster so she's not going to be able to force an approach either.

Yeah she has phantom, but one linear special doesn't make up for the huge problems she has.
Problems that never got fixed.

I'm going to have my fingers crossed her grab is much faster while retaining it's range and hope Naryu's isn't mega punishable.


If not, Im gonna have to find a new main.
I can't deal with a trash character again in smash.

 

HRR2b23

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Sis our character is looking like a FAILURE.
Sakurai failed to fix 80% of her problems and this is NOT good.

No one gives a **** about whether she can love jump or not.




A damn MESS.






Reposting this

Din's Fail getting worse range, a smaller hitbox, STILL putting her into freefall and not letting her fall slower.
Smash attacks still having people pop out of them (keep in mind most of these are casuals who weren't trying to SDI, or let alone even know what it is.).
Up tilt, one of ha best kill moves getting much weaker.
She can't transform to Sheik


And what buffs does she have?

B throw is stronger.
Farore's getting a litte faster and not falling straight down?
HOPEFULLY her grab is better?

I don't even know tbh...

Like let's face it, unless she is SEVERELY changed from the way she is now or there's a move that's super good that were missing....
she is going to be bad.

All of her aerials appear the same, so she's going to be pretty bad in the air again.
Easily juggled, and unreliable aerials.
I wish he would have given her a new f air instead of the same move for b air and f air.

She's still slow and not going to be able to approach, din's looks worse and not faster so she's not going to be able to force an approach either.

Yeah she has phantom, but one linear special doesn't make up for the huge problems she has.
Problems that never got fixed.

I'm going to have my fingers crossed her grab is much faster while retaining it's range and hope Naryu's isn't mega punishable.


If not, Im gonna have to find a new main.
I can't deal with a trash character again in smash.

I lol'd at "sis." Anyways, yeah I'm aware many of her fundamental problems are still present, but the grab buff definitely seems to be a thing. This could just be a coincidence, but at the demo I noticed sub par players (which to be fair most of us are at this stage) landing the sweetspots on bair and fair pretty easily, any indication of those sweetspots being larger? Also, if SDI has truly been nerfed as much as it looks like then Zelda's nair/fsmash/usmash just got a lot more reliable as well. I'm not exactly holding out on her being one of the best characters, but I'm hoping with a few more tweaks she could be decent.
 

ihskeyp

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.........
















leT me just go back to the brawl Zelda boards.
When I watched people play the demo, I saw more people play as Zelda than I expected and it saw more Zelda players win than I expected. I've always liked using Zelda, and in my opinion she looks to have improved since brawl.
 
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Luthien

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I was trying so hard to stay positive. To have faith in the developers. To look at the bright side. But you guys.

Her fsmash and usmash are still escapable.

Her fsmash and usmash are still escapable.

COME ON DEV TEAM, I'M LIKE 99.9% SURE RYOKO HAD THAT FIXED DAY ONE OF PROJECT M. THIS IS INEXCUSABLE, EVEN FOR A CASUAL ENVIRONMENT. NO OTHER CHARACTER HAS SMASH ATTACKS THAT - WHEN PROPERLY LANDED - ONLY DO 1-4% DAMAGE WITH MINOR KNOCKBACK, LEAVING THEM AT A FRAME DISADVANTAGE.

Look, the kick not being a complete disaster again is nice, but it only took watching 20 minutes of footage to tell Zelda didn't improve in any of the ways she needed to.

She still has no real approach options. She has no pressure game, is still easy to punish, has no way to control the space below her, and retains a linear and predictable recovery that - even with reduced lag - is still easy to punish on a fundamental design level. With a joke projectile that is easy to avoid or block once the opponent discovers the L/R button and another ranged attack that takes 5 seconds of charging to travel 3 meters only to be dodged - or worse, reflected - she has no camping game to speak of.

Din's Fire sweetspot kills now? Irrelevant. Even in free-for-alls, once you're fighting people who understand how to air or spot-dodge you're never going to land it since you can barely even play the "am I going to release it early or late and catch you with its range" at maximum distance any longer. Oh, and its sourspot probably has set knockback: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2doHqnACae0 (at 2:23).

Even with customization - which only effects special moves and does nothing to improve her normals - it's pretty much over. Zelda will once again be little more than a joke even in the lower echelons of competitive play.

Edit: I wanted so much to love my main's new incarnation. I really did. Being able to say, "At least I have Project M" only provides so much solace.
 
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Wavebuster

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I was trying so hard to stay positive. To have faith in the developers. To look at the bright side. But you guys.

Her fsmash and usmash are still escapable.

Her fsmash and usmash are still escapable.

COME ON DEV TEAM, I'M LIKE 99.9% SURE RYOKO HAD THAT FIXED DAY ONE OF PROJECT M. THIS IS INEXCUSABLE, EVEN FOR A CASUAL ENVIRONMENT. NO OTHER CHARACTER HAS SMASH ATTACKS THAT - WHEN PROPERLY LANDED - ONLY DO 1-4% DAMAGE WITH MINOR KNOCKBACK, LEAVING THEM AT A FRAME DISADVANTAGE.

-----
Edit: I wanted so much to love my main's new incarnation. I really did. Being able to say, "At least I have Project M" only provides so much solace.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Zs-ObbYeN_w#t=252
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=kzURoGXCFPw#t=55
 

Oz37

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To me, it looks like she's going to be just fine. They'll balance her some more, of course, but it looks like she's just one of the more difficult characters to get down. She may take... PRACTICE! *gasp* But overall, she's going to be just as viable as any other character. It's just a matter of how best to use her and accepting that her play style might have a learning curve.
 

BJN39

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To me, it looks like she's going to be just fine. They'll balance her some more, of course, but it looks like she's just one of the more difficult characters to get down. She may take... PRACTICE! *gasp* But overall, she's going to be just as viable as any other character. It's just a matter of how best to use her and accepting that her play style might have a learning curve.
No.

No no no no NO.



You just don't get it.
 
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Katy Parry

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No.

No no no no NO.



You just don't get it.
Are we keeping in mind that her specials will have different options, as well as the fact we're playing a demo that's unfinished (and using SEVERAL placeholders from Brawl, not to mention certain items didn't even work)

Also, I haven't seen any video, nor did I experience (when I played myself) anyone escaping my fsmashes. If anyone escaped my Upsmash, I hit them with the edge of the move. I didn't use it on them directly, or I only hit them with the edge of the move. Other times when I used her upsmash, it was inescapable.
 

Toadallstar2

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkNNhTJ6_n4

I urge you all to watch this for a couple reasons.
Her RECOVERY!

0:40, right to that ledge. Very smooth.
2:05 to the ledge again when in brawl would have went way up instead.

2:10 was that dair sweet or sour? I seen an animation but I'm not sure. Either way it worked well. Grab's fast too.

Saturday approaching, I hope to get more reviews and discussion in here.
 

Toadallstar2

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=no614YZzZsY

Ok, sorry for spamming but this was a great vid. The quality is horrible, but from what I did see, she slayed.

1:00 correct me if I'm wrong but that KNOCKBACK from an ending UpB on Greninja at like 33% was extreme. Not to mention the damage. I seen this before but I didn't think to say anything. This move is getting better and better.

1:38 Phantom hit hard when charged up which is nice.

Hope for some commentary on this post and last and see what you guys think.
 

Erotic&Heretic

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Good to see those videos.

On the first one, the Bair was sourspotted. And that's nice.



I really think the balancing in not finished, by the way.
 

Rutata

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From what footage I've seen, Zelda's dair hasn't sourspotted yet. It also seems:
- slower than brawl
- has an interesting lightning effect (although this doesn't evidence anything exactly)
- knocks opponents from the ground differently stronger than brawl
This sort of leads me to believe that it might not even have a sourspot and thus will be a much more useful meteor than in brawl. It might even help the blindspot underneath her.

Personally I'm pretty interested in seeing what sorts of combos Utilt will lead to and how it affects opponents on higher percentages. That move seems to be the only one that I've seen of hers that has had a complete makeover. This must be for a reason. I'm also interested in seeing her neutral aerial in action more. I recall seeing her doing a combo against bowser (i can't find the vid...) with neutral air > utilt > lightning kick (interrupted by another player)
 

Rutata

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actually hmm i'm not sure if it's slower than brawl, might just be the lightning effect misleading me
 

BJN39

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkNNhTJ6_n4

I urge you all to watch this for a couple reasons.
Her RECOVERY!

0:40, right to that ledge. Very smooth.
2:05 to the ledge again when in brawl would have went way up instead.

2:10 was that dair sweet or sour? I seen an animation but I'm not sure. Either way it worked well. Grab's fast too.

Saturday approaching, I hope to get more reviews and discussion in here.
Wait, I think I just realized.

I think Zelda's Up B now has P:M-like auto-snap properties. From anywhere.

Many of you likely don't know what that means, but it's good. Very good. #Buff'd

BRB I'll be posting something nifty here...

Okay, here's my most current knowledge list, for y'all Zeldas to see.

This is everything I've found so far from videos.

Take note; The workings of damage seem unusual and inconsistent between hits, (Example: a hit-box doing 11% fresh one time, but 12% fresh the next.) and I've recorded two different percents for just about every attack. (The variation is only a 1% difference.) With that in mind, if you see two percents > 11\12% < connected like this, it means the varying percents.

Note 2: Everything here is subject to being changed before the full release.



MOBILITIES:

* Her running appears to be a slight bit faster. Not a whole lot, though...

* Her second jump is now much larger! It used to only be about "one Zelda high" but now it's equal in height to her first jump. (which is around "one-and-1/2 Zeldas high")

* Many people have reported that she falls faster. IDK how I like this...


NORMALS:

Jab:
* The attack does 7% over 3 hits. (Note, ONE of the hits does 3%. One time it was the third hit, another time it was the 2nd hit. This may have to do with that percent varying mentioned above.)

66A - Dash Attack:
* Seems to do some combination of 12\13%, 9\10%, and 6%.
(It's unknown if the damage differences happen with different timing or placement.)
* The 90 degree angle seems to be done away with, and now the WHOLE attack does a 45 degree angle.
* The knockback of the hit-boxes seems "evened out" In that the tip and center of the move knock away the same amount.
* It also KO's at a percent BETWEEN the replaced brawl style; at around mid to high 100%s.

Ftilt:
* The move ONLY hits forward now; at an angle of around 45 degrees.
* Does some range of 10\11\12\13%
(All fresh percents.) It seems somewhat... Inconsistent, though...
* It still has pretty decent knockback, KO'ing around mid 100%s.

Dtilt:
* Now does 4%.
(Unknown if it ONLY does 4%.)

Utilt:
* The move has been drasticly changed:
* It now does only 5\6%.
(Incredibly low damage.)
* Its knockback has been HUGELY reduced. (Only half a screen of KB at 100%.)
* Its angle is WAY higher. (It ranges from 90 degrees in the front, to around 100 degrees when hitting behind.)
-- Overall, far more combo friendly. Use as so.

Fsmash:
* Occasionally, people "fall out" of the multi-hits, disappointingly...
* Now does 17\18%.
* Retains very similar knockback to Brawl.

Dsmash:
* Front hit does 12\13%.
* Back hit does 10\11%.
* Retains very similar to Brawl knockback.

Usmash:
* Occasionally, people "fall out" of the multi-hits, disappointingly...
* Does 16\17% If all hits connect. It seems inconsistent at hitting fully, though...
* It appears to have some sort of IASA
(Not confirmed) that makes it faster than it was in Brawl.
* It appears to be slightly weaker;
(Not confirmed.) not being able to "off the top" KO ZSS even at 115%.

NAir:
* Does around 12%

FAir/BAir:
* The Sweetspot hit-lag is reduced from Brawl.
* Sweetspot does 21%, and hits at around 45 degrees. Still VERY powerful.
* Sourspot does 4\5%.
* The move has normal priority.
(It could be seen cancelling a Samus homing missile.)

DAir:
* Sweetspot does 16\17% and still hits straight down.
* Sourspot does 4\5% and still hits straight down.
* The sweetspot can connect with grounded opponents!

UAir:
* The hit-box appears to be larger and there appears to be two different ones: The main hit-box, and the edging.
* The main hit-box does 15\16% and hits upwards
. (Note, it may not hit straight up anymore. It's unknown.) Also, it appears to be slightly weaker. (Not confirmed.)
* The edging is a weaker hit-box edging the main one. It does 10%.
* There have been reports of some part of UAir hitting downwards somewhere on the move. The true workings are unknown, but I believe this may have to do with the edging.
(Theory>) Perhaps the edging hits in the direction of the side you hit with. (AKA, hit by the top = upwards. Hit with the side = sideways. Note this is only a THEORY.)

SPECIALS:

Neutral Special - "Nayru's Love":
* The move appears to connect better than in Brawl.
* The final hit has increased knockback.
(It nearly KO'ed ZSS ataround 150%.)
* If you're behind Zelda, the final hit in the back now knocks the opposite way Zelda is facing, (Like Melee/P:M) instead of only forward her direction like in Brawl.

Side Special - "Din's Fire":
* The move now consists of two different hit-boxes.
The core, a VERY powerful, but tiny hit-box in the center, that does 7-15%, and the edging, the rest of the explosion; an incredibly weak, set knockback hit-box. It does 3-7%.
* The fireball travels slightly faster
(Not confirmed, but reported to be so by multiple people.)
* The channel distance, fireball maneuverability, and explosion hit-box, have all been nerfed.
* If used in the air, it no longer slows your descent.
(Not Confirmed.)
* The fireball explosion still retains "normal" priority, and it still causes special fall if used in the air.
-- This is just terrible...

Up Special - "Farore's Wind":
* Farore's Wind now carries jump momentum during the startup animation.
(Actually, It always did. It's just FAR more noticeable in SSB4 because her 2nd jump is so much bigger.)
* The vanishing animation, and the invisible travel time, are quicker. Apparently, though, the reappear animation length is the same.
* Reappearing while airborne still forces you to fall a great deal with no horizontal movement.
* The disappear hit-box does 7%.
(Unknown if it does anything more.)
* The reappearing hit is now made up of two hit-boxes. The larger hit-box is larger than it was in Brawl, and does 7\8%. The second hit-box is smaller (Still large-ish.) and is centered on Zelda. This one does a whopping 12\13% and has very large knockback.
* The reappearing hit-box no longer has a flame effect, but instead, a slash effect.
(FINALLY.)
* The disappearing animation can once again snap ledges! (Like in Melee. This feature was removed in Brawl.)
* It appears that Zelda will now auto-grab ledges at ANY TIME during her invisible travelling period if they're near enough to her.

Down Special - "Phantom Slash" AKA the NEW MOVE:
"Zelda creates a small-ish purple portal/vortex that once released, lets loose Phantom Armor (Like the one Zelda possesses in Spirit Tracks.) That lunges forward and swings its sword to attack opponents, and defend Zelda."
* The move can be charged, and doing so increases the range, power, and damage. (5-16%) More charge also changes the type of Slash it does.
* No charge and it does a small, horizontal slash. Mid charge and it does an overhead, downwards slash. Fully charge it and the Phantom lunges forward and then does a MASSIVE uppercut slash, doing two hits.
* The fully charged Phantom Slash is two hits, yes. But in fact, it can do up to 26%! The lunging hit does 11%, and the huge uppercut does 16%.
* When fully charged the purple vortex quickly flashes pink. It takes around 1.5 seconds to fully charge.
* It can be used while airborne and causes NO special fall afterwards.
(woot!)
* The Phantom has NO gravity properties, and will stay on a single Y-plane when used. (It looks sorta funny when released in mid-air.)
* The Phantom can take hits from projectiles and shield Zelda. It can be seen taking 25% at full charge. It can take multiple projectiles before being destroyed too! (As it took one of Samus's missiles, and didn't die.)
* The Phantom is considered a projectile, and can be reflected by projectile reflecting moves. (UGH!!!)
* There is a brief period of time after the Phantom slashes where it's still there, and Zelda can act.
* Trying to use Phantom Slash while the Phantom is still on-screen causes Zelda to do a "no bullet whiff" animation.
* The Phantom appears to have some sort of "wall-like" properties.
(Not Confirmed.) (It could be seen pushing Mega Man back slightly.)


Grab/Pummel:
* Her standing grab appears to connect significantly faster.
("And that day there was a collective sigh of relief and happiness.")
* Pummel does 3\4%.

Fthrow:
* Does 12\13% and sends at around a 45 degree angle.
* It has 'normal' knockback t low percent, but gains near KO like knockback in the mid 100%s.

Bthrow:
* Does 11\12% and sends at around a 135 degree angle
(45 degrees behind her.)
* Its low percent knockback seems to be drasticly increased. (If any of you saw Kirby's Uthrow's craziness during the smash 4 invitational, I hope Zelda's bthrow is like that now.)
* Its KO power is drasticly increased. (It could be seen in one video causing the "red flash" on another Zelda at only around 75%.)

Dthrow:
* The damage it does has been reduced to 6% over 5 hits.
(Like... Why...)
* It now knocks slightly farther at lower percents, and releases at a higher angle.

Final Smash is still The Light Arrow. It does 40%. It also seems to be slightly more powerful. Neat!
 
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Rion

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A GROUNDED Dair example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLqgyC3Nhyw&feature=youtu.be&t=2m48s Vs Mario

Firstly, Mario was ON THE GROUND. He bounced up akin to regular Dairs that cause a spike trajectory!

Second, it dealt 17% damage! So that would -seem- like a sweetspotted damage Dair... or maybe it has no sweetspot anymore?

I have also yet to see a "sourspotted" Dair so far so this might be a nice development if its become just a regular non-sweetspotted attack. However, it's too early to tell for certain.

Edit: Oops! Someone already mentioned that Dair has a sweetspot/sourspot so, disregard that.
 
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Toadallstar2

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A GROUNDED Dair example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLqgyC3Nhyw&feature=youtu.be&t=2m48s Vs Mario

Firstly, Mario was ON THE GROUND. He bounced up akin to regular Dairs that cause a spike trajectory!

Second, it dealt 17% damage! So that would -seem- like a sweetspotted damage Dair... or maybe it has no sweetspot anymore?

I have also yet to see a "sourspotted" Dair so far so this might be a nice development if its become just a regular non-sweetspotted attack. However, it's too early to tell for certain.

Edit: Oops! Someone already mentioned that Dair has a sweetspot/sourspot so, disregard that.
Thanks, that's actually awesome. I looked close and I didn't think he jumped. That Dair is looking mega impressive. Almost similar to DK's dair in a way where it always clobbers.

@BJN39 Great list compliation. You're totally right on the game itself changing percents (and therefore knockbacks I assume) almost randomly. I've noticed this with many of her attacks. I even looked at staleness and whatnot but really the game is not done. They're still fiddling around.

I'm telling y'all, that upB is the best thing to ever happen to her. I'll take that ending lag because everything else makes it impressive. I bet that would KO at early percents also considering it did that much to poor Greninja at 30%.

Maybe I'm pulling at strings but this so far outweighs any problems we've had with Dins among other moves. Very excited currently.
 

Katy Parry

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Right....and its by CT Zero... a complete idiot. This is his opinion, and doesn't even match up against other "several" tier list opinions that are on the net right now.

He most likely didn't even play her. The fact she was the first character eliminated in that joke of a tournament is most likely all the knowledge he has on her. We all know Zelda is a character of patience, and most gameplay videos (even mine) just show running in (its a free for all. Not much strategy you can provide.)
 

Alacion

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Zelda's placement is spot on, regardless. I'd much rather trust his opinion than yours.

Not sure if you actually play Zelda in tournaments in Melee or Brawl but patience isn't enough. You can make reads but actually being able to make something out of those reads is another story.
 

BJN39

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It's true Zelda isn't doing too hot with ONLY her current changes, but I hope he takes a second look at her sometime. I bet he'll at least see some good stuff he didn't see when he tested her before. (PS, he DID "test" her before the invitational.)
 

Rion

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Zelda's placement is spot on, regardless. I'd much rather trust his opinion than yours.

Not sure if you actually play Zelda in tournaments in Melee or Brawl but patience isn't enough. You can make reads but actually being able to make something out of those reads is another story.
Forgive me for my impertinence, but saying it's "spot on" is rather exaggerated, don't you think?

We literally have not played with her in any serious 1Vs1 setting at all, let alone actually test her final build. There are too many unknown variables to even think of making a solid conclusion, so let's just put aside the doom and gloom for a moment here and hold off on any real judgment until we have all the facts and an actually finished game.

Wouldn't you agree?
 

Toadallstar2

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At first play, I can see why he went with that assumption. Most of us did as well when we first saw gameplay.

However, us Zellys over-analyze everything and in conclusion, things don't look so bad.

Ignore any sort of tier list as of now. We ain't no bottom b***h.
 

Erotic&Heretic

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This kind of things really makes me think that she is absolutely unbalanced. Some of her moves seems weak, while others seems really strong. Something is not right here.
 

Alacion

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Eh people are gonna speculate regardless.

I've played Zelda competitively for years and so I'm pretty familiar with how she works. Her cons really outweigh the new pros as was mentioned in various threads and posts. I mean in P:M, Zelda had huge changes and unless Smash 4 follows suit Zelda will remain as bad as she always has been.

I wish you guys could have a taste of using Zelda in a non P:M tournament. Ever had that feeling of making a successful read but you're unable to punish because of your awful options? Ever been forced to do the approaching because Zelda can't force the approach? As far as I can tell, none of these issues have been fixed.

That back throw had awful DI. When you're that close to the blast zone you have to DI upward.
 

Toadallstar2

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What is Zelda doing at 2:10? A new taunt?
Yepp, looks neat.

Ok look 0:45, that dair. No knockback really but that damage is nice. I wanna see it used on someone with a lot of %.

Random with her design but doesn't she look nice. Glistening and shiny. #PositiveThinking
 

BJN39

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That back throw had awful DI. When you're that close to the blast zone you have to DI upward.
I'm not talking about the DI or placement though, you missed the point.

What I MEAN is the "red flash". It's a sign that whatever did it will likely cause a KO on that hit.

It caused a red flash at only 59% on Zelda. That means it has KO potential VERY EARLY. That's what I'm getting at.

Combined with the possibility of a faster grab, this will be a nice, positive change. I was hoping this would be so after seeing Kirby's Uthrow at the invitational.
 
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Katy Parry

The Only Zelda in Indiana
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What does anyone think about Zelda's combo potential?

I mean in PM (FAN MADE GAME) her only real combos I know are Din's > to something, Throw > to something, Upsmash to upsmash etc

I mean that's not too specific, but I don't see much combo potential from her.

I just seriously think the balancing hasn't even started yet.

Remember how different the Brawl e3 demo was from the final game?
 
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