Best Buy Demo Discussion - What do you think of Marth in Smash 4?

[Krynxe]

This thread is to discuss your thoughts on Marth from the playable demo at Best Buy. Please visit the other characters boards to discuss different characters.

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With the playable demos on Wednesday, June 11 and Saturday, June 14, smashers who couldn't attend e3 will have the chance to experience Super Smash Brothers for the Wii U hands on for the first time.


- For information, Click here.
- To find a location near you, Click here.

 

[Raziek]

Reserved for my impressions post.

Preliminary list of stuff I plan on testing (courtesy of Shaya):

Dash dancing? Dash cancelling, all that jazz.
Aerial landing lag?
Comparative range?
Dancing Blade?
Dolphin slash landings? can we edge cancel? Stuff like that
shieldbreaker? sped up? actually insta pops shields?
Check dtilt for IASAs, can you shield out of it or do we need to do attacks.
What's his jab finisher?

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Please check if he has reliable kill options now, if he can autocancel any aerials while putting out hitboxes, what SHFF aerial lag is like in general and if his combo game isn't completely butchered by the universal strengthening of throws.

 

[Raziek]

Okay, so, here's all my Marth impressions:

@ Shaya @clowsui @Overswarm @C.J.

Dashing:
No dash dancing. (or if there is, the window is super tight)
Dash cancel works like Brawl, can cancel with DB.
Dash to shield seems about the same as Brawl.

PIVOT CANCELING NEW META: Out of a dash, if you pivot, you can cancel into a jab/tilt/smash/grab out of the animation. Really fast, and will be a hugely important mechanic. I found it by accident while attempting to pivot grab.

Normals:
Aerial lag seems higher. 6-10 frames on each aerial. Feels really bad.
Range feels pretty much the same. Fair maybe slightly buffed in range, but nerfed in recovery.
D- tilt IASA is like Brawl, you seem to be able to shield, not sure if IASA shield.
Jab is identical, no finisher.
SHDF and SH Fair -> Uair don't work. Fair recovery seems increased.
Unable to test Footstool dair due to difficulty of footstool in FFA.
Bair facing works like Brawl, bair feels really good.
Nair still feels godlike.
U-tilt seems both slower to start up (very slightly) and slower to recover. Still has back-side strong hitbox.

Specials:
DB timing is slightly stricter, might just be the TVs.
DS recovers much faster when used from the ground. Not sure about I-frames yet.
RCO lag definitely still there. orz
Dancing Blade has AWFUL recovery if you stop it early. Like, gotta be around 25 frames. DB1 mixups are toast for sure. 4th hit feels a great deal stronger. Likely only safe if you stop after 3rd hit down due to backstep. Stopping after first two hits would be suicide.
Upwards ver. of Dancing Blade has more range I think.
DB1 air 'mini-jump' still works.

Grabs:
No follow ups to grab. Kirby at 0 went about as far as he would at 70 in Brawl from f-throw.
D-throw sent pretty much totally vertical.
Grab range seems slightly nerfed, slightly more recovery? (Grabs in General seems slow to recover)
Pivot Grab still works, still godlike.

 

[Mr.Random]

Okay, so, here's all my Marth impressions:

@ Shaya @clowsui @Overswarm @C.J.Stuff

So he sucks?

 

[Aninymouse]

The Dair spike is super easy to pull off, and seems more powerful, to me. Several other people on the E3 subforum seem to think so as well.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Greaaaaaat ...

New Meta, new Marth. So you never know. But this doesn't look good.

 

[Blackrider213]

Aerial lag is definitely higher. No auto-cancelling the aerials now. Dancing blade is more timing based like in Melee (unlike how you could spam the B button in Brawl). Up-smash visually looks like it has a smaller range? Not sure though.

 

[Shaya]

RCO lag is still a thing...
sigh...
really...?

 

[DaDavid]

Unfortunately I only played as Marth in Smash Run (and of course the subsequent match against CPU's) but from my pretty casual perspective, he didn't feel too terribly different from what I'm used to. The ending lag of ending sideB early is pretty much the only thing I noticed, but like I said, I was playing Smash run so... I was either attacking the minions, or fighting post-powerups/downs.

 

[Shaya]

DB1/etc being nerfed is kinda lame... But seeing as we'd have a degree of "combos" available to us, db's reliability as a damage option and now better kill power? on the 4th hit, in a game with no Smash DI, probably required some changes. Remember that air dodging into the ground is laggy now, and DB was our best ground catcher out of a dash (and at the very least was easier to use than down tilt, which is the superior option), so we're likely to be DBing just as much as in Brawl, if not more.

Dolphin Slash having less lag from a grounded one, promotes the whole dragon punch gameplay, if it has invincibility, it'll likely be a veryyyyyyyyyy strong tool (dolphin slashing under battlefield platform = winning?). If no auto canceling aerials and all those other types of projectiles/specials not having auto cancels, DS OoS is going to be very obnoxious. It likely was going to be very obnoxious at the beginning of the game's lifetime ANYWAY (if it remained invincible) due to weaker spacing/control issues people will have, but an actual permanent stupid place in the meta? Okay!

Ledge snaps aren't guaranteed, and Marth still likely has the best (god knows though) trapping dtilt in the game. If it pokes up and flat, and ledge snaps aren't real, Marth will be an effective edge guarder in a way more akin to melee. We probably likely maintain our domination of ledge trapping people too.

No finisher on Jab... SAKURAI LIED TO US

If RCO is really a thing still though... like, are you for ****ing real? If you ledge snap with dolphin slash and then try to jump on stage you're dealt with it? are you 100% sure? this is literally my biggest ****ing complaint about Marth in Brawl. Literally, no other thing pisses me off more. If this is real for another game I don't even know how I'm going to take it/react...

Is shieldbreaker better or not?

Is 360 fair gone? I still haven't seen it again yet properly, image quality from phone videos don't give me any confidence on whether or not its there.

Pivot Cancelling? Yes, I like it. In fact this is basically what we want, what Brawl became in terms of using dash as a movement option, does allow dash dancing (probably? with harder input requirements, WHICH I LIKE). If you can pivot cancel at any point of the dash, then we're looking good in a lot of ways (down tilt out of dash, oh my god). You cannot shield out of those pivots?

 

[Onomanic]

The lag on forward air is super disappointing to see. No SH double fair You can jump from the SH Fair, which isn't bad, but not as strong as a tool as SH double fair. I'm pretty sure this is using IASA frames since you can't autocancel (that or I was horrific at the timing, but I was on the 3DS version so ) Shield breaker seems to go waaaaay farther uncharged in the air than it did in Brawl. Marth seems solid but a little weaker. Time will tell.

 

[Blackrider213]

In regards to auto canceling aerials, I believe it's character specific. Other characters do have auto-canceled aerials, which will make it harder to Up B out of shield.

 

[FlynnCL]

Okay, so, here's all my Marth impressions:

@ Shaya @clowsui @Overswarm @C.J.
RCO lag definitely still there. orz

Okay, so apart from nerfing his approach, grab and throw game and making him laggy, he's still ridden with RCO lag?

Ugh, this really makes me worried about the game if they can't fix a glitch.

 

[Rich Homie Quan]

Is 360 fair gone? I still haven't seen it again yet properly, image quality from phone videos don't give me any confidence on whether or not its there.

its there. It's really hard to see on cellphone quality videos because the visibility of the slash above, below, and slightly behind him is low. The streak of white-ish/blue are slim and faint in those portions.

So that's nice I guess.

 

[Raziek]

So he sucks?

Greaaaaaat ...

New Meta, new Marth. So you never know. But this doesn't look good.

Y'all Chicken Littles need to settle the **** down. He'll be fine.

One thing that hasn't come up yet is that you're not considering him relative to the current cast. He still has a gigantic range advantage on almost everyone. Know who has more range? Like, DK (because he already did and then he got bigger), maybe Bowser.

The fair changes mainly serve to nerf an already ****ty approach option. If you were landing fair right in front of someone's shield, you were getting blown up regardless. Fortunately, for people like Shaya and I, nair is still godlike. This iteration of Marth is going to be more ground-focused. Pivot-cancel d-tilt is sex, pivot grab is still godlike (even if the follow-ups are worse) and as Shaya pointed out below, DB has actually been BUFFED in terms of kill power, and cannot be as easily SDI'd out of. Marth will still be a strong character, for sure.

DB1/etc being nerfed is kinda lame... But seeing as we'd have a degree of "combos" available to us, db's reliability as a damage option and now better kill power? on the 4th hit, in a game with no Smash DI, probably required some changes. Remember that air dodging into the ground is laggy now, and DB was our best ground catcher out of a dash (and at the very least was easier to use than down tilt, which is the superior option), so we're likely to be DBing just as much as in Brawl, if not more.

Dolphin Slash having less lag from a grounded one, promotes the whole dragon punch gameplay, if it has invincibility, it'll likely be a veryyyyyyyyyy strong tool (dolphin slashing under battlefield platform = winning?). If no auto canceling aerials and all those other types of projectiles/specials not having auto cancels, DS OoS is going to be very obnoxious. It likely was going to be very obnoxious at the beginning of the game's lifetime ANYWAY (if it remained invincible) due to weaker spacing/control issues people will have, but an actual permanent stupid place in the meta? Okay!

This was the impression I was getting as well. If I remember on Saturday, I'll test up-B to the top plat on BF. DS OoS should still be amazing.

Ledge snaps aren't guaranteed, and Marth still likely has the best (god knows though) trapping dtilt in the game. If it pokes up and flat, and ledge snaps aren't real, Marth will be an effective edge guarder in a way more akin to melee. We probably likely maintain our domination of ledge trapping people too.

I think we are likely to remain really good at trapping people (especially since invincibility does not refresh on a re-grab, which means they basically get 1 'safe' chance to get back on before we can poke them off again), but ledge snaps are still a thing. Marth's up-B snaps basically the same as Brawl.

No finisher on Jab... SAKURAI LIED TO US

Not really. I thought it was pretty apparent that he was referring to rapid-jabs, which ours is not. It's not like DK's jab2 got a finisher added either.

If RCO is really a thing still though... like, are you for ****ing real? If you ledge snap with dolphin slash and then try to jump on stage you're dealt with it? are you 100% sure? this is literally my biggest ****ing complaint about Marth in Brawl. Literally, no other thing pisses me off more. If this is real for another game I don't even know how I'm going to take it/react...

I'm 95% sure. I tested it several times in the Wii U version and spent about 10 minutes trying it on the 3DS. You definitely cannot air-dodge into the ground (god help you), and regular landing was still hard-landing, with aerials being the lesser of 3 evils thanks to their already increased end-lag.

Is shieldbreaker better or not?

Yes. Does more shield damage (%90ish I think), but still not an instant break uncharged. You can still PS it to take no shield-damage. It's about the same speed, but I think it may also do extra damage. Dunno for sure.

Is 360 fair gone? I still haven't seen it again yet properly, image quality from phone videos don't give me any confidence on whether or not its there.

I don't think 360 fair was ever really a thing. You wanna know what Smash4Marf's fair looks like?

It's basically that. Maybe slightly buffed on the hitbox below him.

Pivot Cancelling? Yes, I like it. In fact this is basically what we want, what Brawl became in terms of using dash as a movement option, does allow dash dancing (probably? with harder input requirements, WHICH I LIKE). If you can pivot cancel at any point of the dash, then we're looking good in a lot of ways (down tilt out of dash, oh my god). You cannot shield out of those pivots?

It's not at any point, I don't think. It was at the window where your shield would come up, so you still have to suffer dash start-up.

I don't thiiiink you could shield (out of a pivot), but I will try to test it further on Saturday. I'm pretty sure it would just give you a dash-to-shield in the original direction. I'll test it though.

 

[IV Sortega]

He could also full jump b-air and f-air on the ledge like in melee.

To me he feels like a combination of Melee Marth and Brawl Marth. His Dancing Blade his the same as in Melee.

 

[Aninymouse]

If RCO is really a thing still though... like, are you for ****ing real? If you ledge snap with dolphin slash and then try to jump on stage you're dealt with it? are you 100% sure? this is literally my biggest ****ing complaint about Marth in Brawl. Literally, no other thing pisses me off more. If this is real for another game I don't even know how I'm going to take it/react...

Maybe I'm a filthy casual (I never played much Brawl), but what's RCO?

down tilt out of dash

See, I don't even pretend to play Marth seriously, and that gets me excited. Marth's DTilt is so cool, and a pivot option for it is great.

 

[Raziek]

 

[Jade_Rock55]

Marth's not looking great.

PIVOT CANCELING NEW META: Out of a dash, if you pivot, you can cancel into a jab/tilt/smash/grab out of the animation. Really fast, and will be a hugely important mechanic. I found it by accident while attempting to pivot grab.

I don't get it...It sounds cool but how do you do this?Like can someone explain the controls.Thanks for the info on Marth everyone.

 

[Raziek]

Dash, interrupt with pivot <x>.

Think of it like a pivot grab except you can do attacks.

 

[Shaya]

Well, I was going to generally assume Marth would remain high/top tier, but with frame data changes I'm quite worried.
I wonder if fair's data has been nerfed or its marth's jump heights/etc. I wonder how other character with double aerials are atm.

Being able to sh fair and jump still, but not any other aerials, is interesting. That means there may be a degree of perfect execution that would allow two fairs. At the very least sh rising fair to jump fair is pretty solid anyway (it's honestly one of my more broken flowcharty things for marth in brawl, although he'd likely prefer FH rising fair over SH).

Can DK sh double bair? Are they auto cancels or is it just landing lag?

 

[Raziek]

His jump feels close to the same to me. Maybe slightly less horizontal momentum carry.

Fair is definitely slower. I'll mess around with it some more tomorrow.

 

[Shaya]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjbNBMOuNvE

Feeling more positive about Marth.
Dthrow is our combo-ish throw now. That's fine, I can live with this.

Only thing I'm ultimately concerned about after seeing this is fast fall fair/it's landing lag. Marth won't feel remotely like Brawl (or Marthy in general imo) if he can't time fast falls and weaving to get tipper fairs that actually lead into things. Like, Keitaro gets multiple tipper fairs on fast falls with absolutely no chance of even a solid positional advantage.

One or the other really. If fair's less versatile in the air... If fair has no follow up potential / omega landing lag (but looks to still be pretty safe on shield). Yeah I'm fine with one, not both.

Still likely will be looking at an alternative main if he keeps RCO though. Out of everything, people need to be vocal about that "bug" not staying in the game.

 

[Emblem Lord]

You are all still so naive.

Nintendo clearly wants Marth to retain RCO. Its not a hard bug to find. Companies are pretty aware of whats going on with their characters.

You think a Nintendo employee has never read anything on this site or other forums? Be serious. They WANT him to retain this bug.

If these changes stick, you can consider me a ZSS main when this game drops.

 

[Shaya]

Oh I'm sure its intentional if it remains in the game after this length of time. It's a bit of a deal breaker to be quite honest.

 

[Loachy]

I'm trying to stay optimistic despite all the panicking going on. I always felt that Marth being good in the past was due to the overall concept of his design, and that they'd have to do something really terrible for him to ever not be good. Kind of like to opposite of Link...

We're all sorely lacking experience, and context for that matter. Even higher lag and stronger throws seems pretty bad yeah, but is it that bad? Kind of hard to tell by playing an incomplete game for 2 minutes at a time. Speaking for myself, tho

 

[Emblem Lord]

Richard (Keitaro) didnt play much a ground game but i will text him later and ask him to share his thoughts.

My metagame prediction:

Short hops only to adjust spacing or early fairs/nairs then back off to retain spacing. F-tilt to shut down basic approaches and general space control. D-tilt to apply pressure, create traps, and test your opponent. Jab same as d-tilt. Covers more vertical space but is less safe. Dancing Blade to punish rolls out of traps.

Mafths biggest boon is air dodge has greater landing recovery frames. Thus opponents will have to play a much more respectful footsie/nuetral game.

They will need to really THINK about how to deal with his range at mid range.

Rushdown Marth is basically dead though if this demo Marth sticks.

Control/Defensive Marth will be the only Marth.

 

[Jade_Rock55]

What's the RCO bug you guys are talking about?What's RCO stand for?

 

[Raziek]

Recovery Carry-Over.

Go to 3:00 to see why we hate it.

 

[Jade_Rock55]

That's pretty dumb,more lag for something stupid.Thanks for the info,also is that Marth only over everyone?

 

[TL?]

Played him today, but not for too long. Here's what I noticed:

Ftilt seems slower to end
Dtilt seems about the same speed and reach
Pivot ftilt is really good
Fthrow knocks back pretty far even at 0%. Basically marth has KO throws instead of combo ones. Dthrow doesn't send them too far, but has too much end lag to get any follow up.
He has a lot of landing lag on aerials.

Overall I think he's just ok now. He has pretty much no combo game at all due to more end lag on a lot of his tilts and throws, low hitstun, and lots of aerial landing lag. He's still got good startup time on attacks and a lot of disjointed reach. It's hard to tell where they're going with this game since people have reported low landing lag on other characters. I'm sure plenty will change by the time this game is finished.

 

[grandmaster192]

From playing the demo, you'll see right away that movement is a lot faster than brawl. With that said, I don't see how A ground-based defensive marth will be viable in this game. It's never really been Marth's strength, and it will be harder to play that way period with approaching being a lot faster and less predictable than Brawl. Characters are going to have a easy time getting inside of marth's range without his old aerial spacing and the quick movement will only add salt on the wound. Might have to pick a different character if you want to be competitive if this demo Marth is what we end up with.

 

[Nike.]

Just got back from best buy.






I'm scared

 

[Jade_Rock55]

Reading this thread makes me sad... I guess Greninja and Link for me.Maybe Little Mac if his air game isn't too bad.

 

[Shaya]

I called it when Sakurai said something about buffing shield breaker.
He said something similar during the development of Brawl in relation to Captain Falcon/Jigglypuff. "We're buffing this".
LOL.

 

[Anthinus]

Looks like Marth's counter hits like a truck. Take a look a this guys:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ckQpLAsX3s

 

[Shaya]

Marth's counter does 1.1 times the damage it would otherwise take.

At 35 damage, that's a huge hit, and I would tell you with near certainty that if Marth countered a strong hit that's doing like 32 damage (warlock punch?) he's probably killing at a similar percent.

I think I've seen other instances of counter (maybe ken used it once or twice in his matches) with weak hits doing very little.

P.S. marth counter knock back is based off damage, not the "knockback strength" of the move used against him.

Counter may be very good this game, who knows.

 

[Sol0ke]

So Marth's speed is lost but his strength is buffed?

 

[Roy-Kun]

I'm not an expert or I don't go too much in-depth regarding the terms used in the Smash Bros. community. But from what I've seen, Marth got a much needed nerf, but maybe a bit too much. Marth is not even impressive anymore, compared to his previous incarnations of Smash Bros., he is really falling behind.

Seeing Ken lose with Marth gave me a really bad feeling, tbh.