Best Buy Demo Discussion - What do you think of Marth in Smash 4?

[Anthinus]

Marth's counter does 1.1 times the damage it would otherwise take.

At 35 damage, that's a huge hit, and I would tell you with near certainty that if Marth countered a strong hit that's doing like 32 damage (warlock punch?) he's probably killing at a similar percent.

I think I've seen other instances of counter (maybe ken used it once or twice in his matches) with weak hits doing very little.

P.S. marth counter knock back is based off damage, not the "knockback strength" of the move used against him.

Counter may be very good this game, who knows.

Yeah, Marth's counter in Brawl was 1.1 times and If I remember correctly Ike's was 1.2 times. But the thing here is that the barrels and crates didn't hit so much before (12%-20%) to increase the damage to 35%. So, the crates hit a lot more in this game or Marth's counter got a sexy buff in damge. Maybe a tipped counter? o.O

 

[The Curious Volnutt]

No.
Nononononononononono! I was just starting to main Marth in brawl and melee, please don't make me have to adjust again.

 

[Raziek]

You guys are jumping to conclusions far too quickly based on a demo.

Even if he ships as-is, he'd still probably be mid-tier.

 

[Anthinus]

You guys are jumping to conclusions far too quickly based on a demo.

Indeed. The data people shares or analyze about the demo couldn't be final. Sakurai said it a lot of times. At least I'm very aware of that.

I think that maybe the build for the demo could be "old" because of the Fairy Bottle item not working/being finished, but we saw in the direct that it is functional. So, since they made the demo for the E3 to date, a lot of tweaks, balances and progress could be done.

 

[Shaya]

You guys are jumping to conclusions far too quickly based on a demo.

Even if he ships as-is, he'd still probably be mid-tier.

RCO will make him low tier
Like, think for a moment. How are we ever going to get back on stage if we only have 1 invincibility opportunity? We're always dealing with 20+ frames of landing lag. Unless regular get up options are solid enough, but at post 100%, doubtful.
I don't know how that won't equate to stocks every time we're RCO'd on the ledge at higher levels of play.

 

[Evil Idol]

So what I got out of my two minutes of Marth was tipper aerials are still pretty strong, landing lag just kinda limits your SH approaches. Also, I see some people saying no DDing? Unless there's a Brawl term I'm unfamiliar with, I was DDing. I can't comment on RCO lag since I won my match pretty hard, I was never under the stage and I didn't go for DS. I do like the buffed DB, and I think I got some form of SDI during my match. I definitely moved while stuck inside a StarFox Bomb that's for sure. Also, while his grab game is pretty nerfed, I think down throw is your best bet for a throw with follow ups. At low percent they're right above you, perfect for USmash/Tilt/Air.

 

[C.J.]

Basically here to say hi to EL.

HI @ Emblem Lord !!! I MISS YOU

 

[Emblem Lord]

If Marth remains the same RCO glitch will regulate him to mid tier.

Sup C.J

 

[Anthinus]

Here is Marth's Moveset recorded by VGBootCamp on 3DS:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0ej06eP_uY

Anything different from the Wii U version?

 

[Evil Idol]

Here is Marth's Moveset recorded by VGBootCamp on 3DS:
[link]

Anything different from the Wii U version?

Range seems shorter than the Wii U version, but Pivot-anything seems to be in both versions. His moves also seem a little faster in 3DS.

 

[Jade_Rock55]

I thought all characters would play the same in both versions.That's a cool find or maybe it could be because the difference in screen sizes?

 

[Anthinus]

If there is any difference betweem them could be probably because of different builds (like one older than the other).

 

[A2ZOMG]

Oh, there's an Emblem Lord here. Hi EL.

And not gonna lie, I'm quite fascinated by Marth getting nerfed. He'd be really silly without changes under an engine where airdodging now has real landing lag and where hitstun functions normally.

 

[Reginleif]

I hope he's slower due to Lucina getting in.

 

[YorKeY]

...............................

 

[TL?]

There is no way he is going to be lower than B/B+, Marth's arch type just doesn't allow it, especially in a game where aerials/knowing aerial spacing/hit boxes are almost everything when you want to succeed at high level. They intentionally designed him to have range and control distance, they even gave him a tipper mechanic. This very meta game has been catering to Marth and his aerials ever since Melee. He get's a small range nerf, so what?

I'm willing to be money he still out aerials more than 75% of the cast, just because of his speed, range (nerfed but still) and mobility . Still don't believe me? Look at Sheik, Fox , Falco in Melee, those characters are godlike, and they have something Marth has.... Godlike aerials, speed, and mobility. (same with Meta knight in brawl and various others) Marth has had (or has almost had) unparalleled aerials in the last 2 games, with a slight range nerf in Smash 4, still no way he's going to suck, rest easy true "loyal" Marth players. If you wanna cry about it, go play a top tier when the game comes out.

No one is crying/whining or anything close to it lol. It's just honest impressions of the demo, and marth has suffered some nerfs, while a lot of the other characters have improved. He's pretty much the only returning character from brawl that feels slower rather than faster. Obviously he could still be good as is or receive further changes, but he is without a doubt nerfed overall as of the e3 demo.

 

[YorKeY]

...................................

 

[DaDavid]

I'm trying to be more optimistic. He's clearly changed, and in such a way that makes him more ground-based, but in general this game seems a bit focused on the ground so who knows?

He's clearly not the dominant powerhouse he's been, but I doubt he won't be viable.

 

[Shaya]

I don't really get the more ground based game when it looks like nothing of his ground game has been buffed at all.

Down Tilt doesn't seem to have an arm extend. Could be a nerf, could be a buff, could be neutral.
Dancing Blade has been nerfed.
Fsmash is slower from what I heard... Doesn't exactly look like it kills better or anything of the like.
Not really enough seen of Up Tilt, ftilt, jab, dash attack: but they were all nerfed from Melee to Brawl and as a result really weren't used at all (up tilt was a solid kill option though). I haven't even seen the other smashes in recent videos.


No idea about grab range, but considering everything else, inb4 pikachu/ganondorf grab range.

I understand how cynical I'm sounding, but I'm mostly trying to be blunt. I hear up throw kills, is that like, an early kill move? If so, that's pretty okay. But a lot of what got him grabs was the power of fair + the fear of it :{.
Depending on whatever, nair will be still very potent, perhaps people are making me under point marth's aerial game (are things like uair weaker for juggling? I haven't really seen it). But if we're being relegated to a ground game because Marth's air game can't compete, when our ground game won't be as solid with weakened dtilt and dancing blade without buffs else where.

 

[BJN39]

inb4 Marth has a worse air game than Zelda.

Anyways...

Something I wanted to note was that it's incredibly rare now to find a move that consistently KOs at under 100%, (Even most new characters don't just have that surprise 60% KO move, aside from Little Mac KO punch, and... Rosalina's Usmash...) and from what I see, Fsmash can KO at like, 60-70% tipped, and I HEARD, that Fsmash's tip was a bit easier to land than Brawl's.

#AnythingWeCanGet (< My thoughts on Zelda when I find even the smallest buff.)

 

[Anthinus]

I don't really get the more ground based game when it looks like nothing of his ground game has been buffed at all.

Even if his ground game got no buff, defensive options are nerfed. Many characters don't have a good way to defend when landing, Marth could chase them and punish well with DBs or his priority attacks with large hitboxes. Shields are weaker, and Marth seem good at pressure, even DB with its nerfs seems good to keep on the pressure and with the SDI's nerf the opponent wont be able to escape tipper DBs. Counter seems to be buffed too.

It's normal to be concerned for a lot of things we saw on the demo. But well, nobody can tell how things will be for sure, until we got our hands on the final game and play it for a while. New Marth, new game, new experience.

 

[LordShade67]

To be frank, I'm also concerned about Marth. When Fox got nerfed from Melee to Brawl, he just didn't feel the same and I eventually dropped him. Do not make me do that again, Sakurai. Because if he really is like this...welp, time to find a new main. I was thinking either Greninja, Rosalina, or Mega Man.

That said, it's still just a DEMO. Alot can change between now and October. I'll wait until then to make my decision.

 

[DaDavid]

Like Anthinus said, its' not exactly that Marth got buffed to be ground-based, but rather that the game itself is making him more viable on the ground.

For those worried though, I wouldn't get my hopes up for change. Japan is getting it in September. Pretty early September at that, so it's unlikely that they are doing anything but checking for bugs at this point. Unless something that we saw in the demo was unintentional, I doubt it'll be changed.

 

[Deleted member]

So wait, in that video he had 55% then died at 90%, does this mean his counter is 1.64x or not?

 

[Shaya]

You aren't exactly thinking that one through. The hit did 35 damage. As 90 take away 55 is 35. And we don't know how much damage the barrel is meant to do, but in previous games it was around 20%

 

[Jade_Rock55]

So...like 1.75?Holy crap.

 

[Shaya]

I'm guessing it's 1.5 and barrels do like 23%?
1.75 is a clean number though, so maybe...

 

[Deleted member]

In the video below at 3:08 we see marth counter pit's side special and pit goes from 61% to 76% so if we can figure out how much damage pits side special does I think we can figure this out.

 

[Anthinus]

In the video below at 3:08 we see marth counter pit's side special and pit goes from 61% to 76% so if we can figure out how much damage pits side special does I think we can figure this out.

In this vid they try Pit's moveset on the sandbag room: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhXICr1VIEw
The side B hits 11% grounded and 9% on air.

The Marth countered Pit for 15% for a move that normaly hits 11%. I'm guessing Marth was going to take 10% and countered for 15%... maybe?

I'm guessing it's 1.5 and barrels do like 23%?
1.75 is a clean number though, so maybe...

In this vid, around 32:50, Sonic is hit by a crate for 21%: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHE5-jEGQgY
The percentage could be around 23% as you say. Barrels could hit harder tho, but I haven't seen a barrel hit yet.

 

[Jade_Rock55]

Perhaps they made barrels do more then they wanted on accident so now they do alot.

 

[AirFair]

I'm not an expert or I don't go too much in-depth regarding the terms used in the Smash Bros. community. But from what I've seen, Marth got a much needed nerf, but maybe a bit too much. Marth is not even impressive anymore, compared to his previous incarnations of Smash Bros., he is really falling behind.

Seeing Ken lose with Marth gave me a really bad feeling, tbh.

I agree, I watched the invitational and was a little sad, because of how much I liked to play Marth in Melee and Brawl

Perhaps they made barrels do more then they wanted on accident so now they do alot.

Barrels OP

 

[Anthinus]

I agree, I watched the invitational and was a little sad, because of how much I liked to play Marth in Melee and Brawl

When I watched the Invitational I got worried about Marth. But since I saw the VGBC's moveset video I feel a lot better.

 

[4cast]

Wow Marth looked Snazzy when he was younger! And Marth has been Nerfed in Aerial Game More Laggy with Smash Attacks in exchange for being Heavier Losing a bit of speed And Being Stronger!

 

[~ Gheb ~]

BJay playing Marth at the Japan Expo in Paris:

I don't know the ZSS player.

 

[Anthinus]

BJay playing Marth at the Japan Expo in Paris:

I don't know the ZSS player.

I like that you cannot get stuck under battlefield when recovering. Watch around 11:30.

 

[Shaya]

Marth legitimately looked like he didn't have an option in the world against ZSS' neutral b and dash attack and whenever he avoided either, that no-SDI jab seemed to get in before any aerial would ZSS could just be stupendously overpowered (which according to the E3 players, she is), it's just depressing to watch a Marth player against a campy play style without even being able to use aerials at all... *sigh* Like, how is "land into counter" an approach? And it's not like Bjay is a newb/doesn't have any idea what he's doing; aerials just seemed useless, ZSS could roll when first hit of nair hit her shield... good game.

 

[AirFair]

hopefully they can rework both characters even a little. I want to see marth get faster like he used to be. And its obvious ZSS needs to be nerfed.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Gotta keep in mind though that the demo version played at the E3 [and presumably at the Japan Expo as well] is a much earlier build than the one that Nintendo is currently working on. Some people even said that it's likely the January build [!] which means that the demo is outdated by no less than nearly half a year by now.

 

[Shaya]

Yeah. I'm aware of that and know that change is possible. But I can never help but feel like Smash Bros' record of poor character balance with glaring flaws is pretty daunting and I'm warranted in worrying, a lot. ZSS looks and going by ZeRo was heavily BUFFED. I wonder how they get there in the first place via anything but a huge misconception of character potency. I'm not worried about Marth taking a step back more than seeing another character take two (or more) steps forward.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I personally feel like a minor buff of ZSS is warranted but it's really hard to say how and if buffs or nerfs work given the context of the game's new mechanics. We'll just have to wait and see. For all we know, Marth could just generally be very mediocre compared to other characters this time around. We've seen Hbox getting very close to beating Zero's ZSS and ZSS was one of Kirby's harder matchups in Brawl. If somebody like M2K gets his hands on Kirby I wouldn't be surprised to hear people complain about Kirby being OP. And we still don't know what most of the other characters can do. At worst you might have to come to terms with the fact that you need to play a different character to compete in tournament with in the future but I really don't see any particular reason to be pessimistic about the game's oveall balance already.

Edit: Turns out that BJay was the ZSS player