Berlin Calling ~ 2.4 - 4.4 2010 [95 PEOPLE LIMIT -> CONFIRM YOURSELF !!]

[Nihonjin]

[edit]

Nvm, I don't feel like getting into this ridiculous debate again.

 

[Aldwyn McCloud]

Rest is basicly the same move , AND wins tourneys(in NTSC, where Fox and Shiek has earlier "guarantied" kills), not to mention is so effective it even works like the best move in teams...

As for teams you might be right, for singles it's a totally different story. If Jigglypuff misses a rest, against most characters it means her death. That doesn't happen with wobbling.

Rest can be DIed (which will make you survive more often than you think) and usually requires some sort of set up to be landed effectively (unless you're a moron and screw your DI you can escape them most of the time).

Hungrybox and Mango aren't enough to state that jigglypuff is broken bro. It's just them being too d4mn good. Apart from them and possibly The King or KillaOR I don't remember any other good jigglypuff player in the smash history. Fox, Sheik, Marth and Falco players all outnumber jigglypuff players BY FAR. If Jigglypuff really was that broken we'd have seen much more of her in tournaments, both in the present and in the past..

Sure, the same happens with ICs, in fact I'm not saying that including wobbling would terribly affect the metagame. I just don't find fair not to give the opponent any possibility of escaping death once he gets grabbed.

Also, I agree as well on using very few counterpick stages. No way you can add BOTH Mute City and Brinstar..

 

[VA]

yay, I agree aldwyn. also I don't really see rest as THAT strong, on a lot of %'s it's just a stock trade :/

 

[Kone]

debating wobbling is ****e

 

[Smasher89]

I agree that puff isn't broken, the puffplayers don´t win by using an uncounterable strategy =), if that would be the case, we would have seen alot more puffs.

If IC misses a grab(by for example, a fox hitting with shine frame 1-5 of before the grab "hits", no matter the % ICs is on, Nana always get the risk of getting KO'd, or the player will have to save her by going for risks.

Both attacks require setup, it´s easier to setup a rest(combos into it, hits on 1st frame, pressure until breaking shield with it+more) then a grab(hits on frame 6 if I remember right), against competent players.

The grab is more then possible to get out on low %

Fair is for me up to the game to decide. And in worst case scenarios (players quitting because of an extreemly unbalanced strategy that ruins every other aspect of the game, and forces everyone to play that character) something will need and clearly justify a ban, wobbling don't have done that(when we have a finish % rule...) and therefore shouldn´t be banned.




I was looking into the ruleset to see exacly how the limitation works but it is clearly not stated(checked the german boards where it´s not even mentioned...), so I would like the host to define it so I wont get disqualified by using tilts in the grabs on the tournament.

 

[Slhoka]

Is it me or are many people here in favor of the ruleset most players were *****ing about when attending French tournaments ?

 

[melt87]

mistake lol

 

[Aldwyn McCloud]

If IC misses a grab(by for example, a fox hitting with shine frame 1-5 of before the grab "hits", no matter the % ICs is on, Nana always get the risk of getting KO'd, or the player will have to save her by going for risks.

Both attacks require setup, it´s easier to setup a rest(combos into it, hits on 1st frame, pressure until breaking shield with it+more) then a grab(hits on frame 6 if I remember right), against competent players.

If ICs miss a grab and Fox is using shine EXACTLY IN THAT MOMENT then yes, Nana risks death. In every other situation risks aren't nearly as big.

Claiming that it is easier to set up a rest than a grab is just riddicolous... Try counting the average number of grabs used by ChuDat and the average number of rests used by Mango and see..

And as I said wobbling doesn't deserve to be banned because it threatens to seriously affect the metagame but because it doesn't leave any option to your opponent.

 

[Kone]

Read my post again^

 

[Aldwyn McCloud]

Read my post again^

You're right, back to all VS Luma stage discussion.

 

[Fuzzyness]

this thread..fail :/ at least right now

Luma or whoever is in charge of this tournament please respond ASAP (Remen is getting frustrated and I don't blame him)

Wobbling does not need to be discussed here, if you want to waste time on an argument that has been settled since 2006/2007 then do it in the competition section.

Amsah stop doing pointless posts if you know you're gonna edit them anyway people need to think before posting!

It's annoying seeing the boards filled with trash and everyone arguing lol

 

[Falcinho]

Stop being such a little *****, Luma, and respond to my last post. At this point you're just selecting points you can argue against, and doing poorly at even that. You're wrong about the circlerunning matter for instance, unlike stuff like ledgegrabbing it can't be clearly defined and therefor can't be banned.

My original point that there's too many floaties' stages also still stands, I've already disproven your arguments. So either come up with a better reasoning or change the **** list.

Literally EVERYONE besides you that's posted regarding this matter up till now is against your stage list(and seems to be for neutrals only even). Not only that, but you can't even argue back and you still won't listen? I honestly can't believe anyone could be this dense. I didn't think it was possible, but it seems you've managed to make me lose faith in humanity even more. Good job!



Danke schön.

Answer?
Remen definitely has valid points

 

[Luma]

just talk as much as you want, i srsly could not care less at this point

as i said i wont change anything regarding the stagelist, but if you really have problems with it, why wait till the host got like 100 things to do and not like 1-2 months ago?

 

[Aldwyn McCloud]

just talk as much as you want, i srsly could not care less at this point

as i said i wont change anything regarding the stagelist, but if you really have problems with it, why wait till the host got like 100 things to do and not like 1-2 months ago?

I personally didn't notice till someone brought it up. Regardless of what you intend to do the excuse of the host being busy doesn't make sense to me. Chaning a stage ruleset only requires the editing of some lines in a post. It's not like we're asking to make new pools by scratch, ya 'know?

 

[Nihonjin]

Amsah stop doing pointless posts if you know you're gonna edit them anyway people need to think before posting!

It wasn't pointless, I simply didn't want to continue the discussion.

 

[Fuzzyness]

fair enough lol, I dont see why the organizer wont listen to the players and sticking to what "they" feel is right

Luma :/

 

[Luma]

aldwyn: so far i dont see any valid arguments for changing anything and what remen wants are some arguments why i got this stagepool

 

[Aldwyn McCloud]

aldwyn: so far i dont see any valid arguments for changing anything and what remen wants are some arguments why i got this stagepool

The fact that nobody is supporting this ruleset apart from you should already be enough (at least I don't remember anyone supporting it, I might as well be wrong).

Also, I haven't read any real valid reason for which Mute City should be included either..

 

[Luma]

i've talked with enough people on msn who support this ruleset so i dont see a reason why i should change anything

and so far nearly only fox/falco players complained about it so i dont really give a crap if they cant play on CP-stages

 

[milkieee]

Well I had enough stress with school-related stuff for the last 2 weeks & it does not stop until the tournament comes.

You guys seriously had enough time to tell me or luma what your problems with ANYTHING are.

I hate that last minute issues, the rules are in the first post for months and noone wrote me on msn or here ..

My personal stress is not a legit john & that's why I asked luma to care for all that stuff & ask me if he has no time for something.

if we were going to change the stage pool we would need to discuss this stuff with some people, you know.
Luma did so & now - 2 weeks before the tournament - you guys come with **** like: "Oh wow crappy stage-pool, *****s !!"

As I said: It's a little bit late, don't you think so too ?

 

[Remen]

Well sorry for starting this whole thing this late, but I simply hadn't looked at the ruleset before because I wasn't even sure I was coming to this. That said, I don't really think it's too late, because you shouldn't be making the rules behind the scenes like you are now. I know you're the host and everything, but don't you think it's a bit unfair to everyone that the ruleset gets decided by some random friends of yours rather than the entire community?
So instead of discussing it solely with them, discuss it with everyone here, publicly. And that means actually discussing it seriously, because up till now we've basically been talking to a brick wall here. That way we'll do the work for you and save you some time and you can focus on your hosting duties, everyone happy.

Or I guess you could stick to your original plan. But then I'd rather have a big '**** you' to the community from you right now instead of wasting everyone's time by trying to justify it and making excuses.

 

[Kone]

luma - anychance you could pm me the place i am staying with the brits in berlin and contact details of who we are staying with? i am super busy teaching at the moment and havent had time to contact through msn. we need it thurs night and sun night. the guy you lined up for us sounded a okay

 

[milkieee]

Well in my opinion it's not even cool to have YS in the random stage pool because I'm a Peach-Main - Foxes, Falcos, Marths & Sheiks can be serious problems in this case. The same thing with PS - not a cool peach stage.

I would prefer to play it as I used to play it in the past:
Random: FD, YS, PS, FoD & DL64 (instead of FoD I don't like any of these stages but I learned to play it like this)
CP: Corneria, MC, KJ64, RC, Brinstar, JJ, PF & GG

Please don't call the german smashers "random friends of mine" that's just not the truth.

If someone comes up with a stagepool + describtions I'll think about this.

At the moment it's just like this:
Random: FD, BF, YS, PS, DL64 (should be clear)
CP:
FoD (higher frame for Floaties, if you can handle the platforms cool for Spacies as well, though ~ kinda neutral)
KJ64 (cool for a campy fox, cool for floaties too because of high frame)
RC (cool for a campy fox, cool for CF because of the much space)
Brinstar (cool for floaties)
MC (cool for floaties & especially peach - okay for spacies (less space is good for pressure imo) anti-sheik stage (though ^^))

If I think about the Fastfaller's & Marth's advantage on the neutrals/randoms (instead of DL64) imo this Stagepool is really fair.

Correct me if I totally failed ^^

 

[Remen]

My opinion on the counterpick stages:

FoD - Pretty much neutral
KJ64 - Sorta neutral, doesn't really heavily favor anyone imo
RC - Good for fast characters like spacies and Falcon
Brinstar - Really good for floaties
MC - Good for floaties, not that good for fastfallers. Combination of no platforms and little space is bad for them(they get easily combo'd/chainthrown and gimped) and the road ***** them

So floaties have more stages with this list, therefor I'd like either Brinstar or Mute removed to balance it out. Or the best option if you ask me would be to remove both of them and RC for a neutrals only stage list, which is also what most people in this thread seem to be wanting.

 

[Luma]

yeah remen i am a random friend of milkman and def got nothing to do with smash at all

lets make it easy for you

we host the tournament, we make the rules, not the community

if you dont like that, just dont come, thx (end of discussion)

 

[Aldwyn McCloud]

Well in my opinion it's not even cool to have YS in the random stage pool because I'm a Peach-Main - Foxes, Falcos, Marths & Sheiks can be serious problems in this case. The same thing with PS - not a cool peach stage.

I would prefer to play it as I used to play it in the past:
Random: FD, YS, PS, FoD & DL64 (instead of FoD I don't like any of these stages but I learned to play it like this)
CP: Corneria, MC, KJ64, RC, Brinstar, JJ, PF & GG

Please don't call the german smashers "random friends of mine" that's just not the truth.

If someone comes up with a stagepool + describtions I'll think about this.

At the moment it's just like this:
Random: FD, BF, YS, PS, DL64 (should be clear)
CP:
FoD (higher frame for Floaties, if you can handle the platforms cool for Spacies as well, though ~ kinda neutral)
KJ64 (cool for a campy fox, cool for floaties too because of high frame)
RC (cool for a campy fox, cool for CF because of the much space)
Brinstar (cool for floaties)
MC (cool for floaties & especially peach - okay for spacies (less space is good for pressure imo) anti-sheik stage (though ^^))

If I think about the Fastfaller's & Marth's advantage on the neutrals/randoms (instead of DL64) imo this Stagepool is really fair.

Correct me if I totally failed ^^

Both lists work pretty ok. The first one has got way too many stages and some of them really shouldn't be added IMO (Jungle Japes and Green Greens in particular). The Italian ruleset has got many stages as well, however we kinda solved it by adding 2 stage bans.

I actually like the second list quite a lot, only problem for me it's Mute City. As Remen said having close spaces AND no platforms doesn't really favor spacies at all. Less space might be good for pressure but the truth is, when playing Peach and Puff, usually spacies are the ones under pressure (if pressuring was an effective strategy, we would see it being used a lot more often than camping).

Most space animals will prefer more room, as it allows a better use for their mobility. Mute City unites the disadvantages of close stages such as Brinstar and FoD (impossibility to spam properly) and Final Destination's (chaingrabs from Peach + possibly others, impossibility to use platform game to your advantage), therefore making it the worst possible choice of a stage against Peach (and most likely Puff too). It definitely isn't as neutral as it might seem. It is true that stages such as PS and YS can give spacies and other characters an advantage, however no stage can turn the tides of a fight as much as Mute City does. Except probably for Corneria.

Corneria isn't neutral either, so I can pretty much agree on its ban, but so should Mute City then. With only one ban, against Peach it will have to be used on Mute City, which however leaves her with the possibility of still using Brinstar as well as banning the stage she hates the most.

 

[Aniolas]

My opinion on the counterpick stages:

FoD - Pretty much neutral
KJ64 - Sorta neutral, doesn't really heavily favor anyone imo
RC - Good for fast characters like spacies and Falcon
Brinstar - Really good for floaties
MC - Good for floaties, not that good for fastfallers. Combination of no platforms and little space is bad for them(they get easily combo'd/chainthrown and gimped) and the road ***** them

So floaties have more stages with this list, therefor I'd like either Brinstar or Mute removed to balance it out. Or the best option if you ask me would be to remove both of them and RC for a neutrals only stage list, which is also what most people in this thread seem to be wanting.

So basically, floaties have 2 really good stages.
But if you consider the neutral stages:

YS: Heavily favor for spacies
PS: Good for spacies
DL64: Ok stage, but if you play a campy fox (like Jman/Lucky) it's hard for other chars.
BF: Neutral
FD: Ok

So it's not like spacies don't have any stages, many neutral is in fact in favor for spacies.
So if you have 1 or 2 cp that doesn't favor them I don't see anything wrong with it.

 

[Aldwyn McCloud]

So basically, floaties have 2 really good stages.
But if you consider the neutral stages:

YS: Heavily favor for spacies
PS: Good for spacies
DL64: Ok stage, but if you play a campy fox (like Jman/Lucky) it's hard for other chars.
BF: Neutral
FD: Ok

So it's not like spacies don't have any stages, many neutral is in fact in favor for spacies.
So if you have 1 or 2 cp that doesn't favor them I don't see anything wrong with it.

As I already said, Mute City influences match ups way more than other stages. And it influences them specifically for Peach and Puff. Yoshi Story might be good for Fox, but it isn't quite as much when fighting against Marth. Mute City is bad for pretty much everyone who isn't Peach or Puff, not just spacies lol.

 

[Aniolas]

I don't agree with that Aldwyn.

Sure, MC might be Peach best stage, but I don't think that she is the best char for the stage, at least she's not even close to OP. All top tier except Falco is good at that stage.

 

[Dax]

yeah remen i am a random friend of milkman and def got nothing to do with smash at all

lets make it easy for you

we host the tournament, we make the rules, not the community

if you dont like that, just dont come, thx (end of discussion)

No offense Luma, but that's not cool at all nor it makes you smarter.
If that's the way to run a discussion well, maybe indeed next time we will not come. I'm not even talking about who's right and who's wrong, it's just the attitude, dude.
I personally don't think that Mute City is even a playable stage, even Corneria is better but oh well. I don't even play spacies usually.

 

[Smasher89]

I usually are for many stages since "it´s in the game, and if it´s not broken, don´t ban it". In this case, only neutrals or the past rules example(might need to ban green greens though) you mentioned seems more "fair".

These stages does give alot of problem for ICs (especially in the peach matchup, but fox/CF too in a way).

All stages on the CP list (except FoD, since it's "neutral", but the platforms works in peach favor very effectively) are bad for ICs.

IC gets one stage (since FD gets autobanned) against peach (YS) when peach gets Dl64, KJ64´(or fox), MC,and Brinstar, which leaves rainbow cruise on the CP list which is also a great stage against IC.


Choosing them as a main is accepting that they have a few bad stages and matchups, but every bad stage allowed on a tournament while getting no CPs...
Fair?





I would vote for the old rules without green greens.

But I won't complain, since it´s up to the host to decide the rules.

 

[Aldwyn McCloud]

I don't agree with that Aldwyn.

Sure, MC might be Peach best stage, but I don't think that she is the best char for the stage, at least she's not even close to OP. All top tier except Falco is good at that stage.

Name a character that does better than Peach and Puff on that stage then.

Fox hasn't got much room + gets chaingrabbed + gets owned by the road (ok, this one is already more acceptable) + has a harder time KOing.

Falco well, let's just not talk about him, shall we?

Sheik has no edge to grab when recovering.

Marth hasn't got a quite good time moving on that stage either, in general he hates everything that's not neutral. Not sure wheter the absence of platforms is good or bad for him, in general he has a harder time KOing too.

C.Falcon hasn't got the room he needs + gets chaingrabbed.

ICs do fine as long as the stage doesn't land, but their recovery gets screwed too and they aren't nearly as good as Peach.

 

[Fuzzyness]

kongo jungle is bad for floaties tbh

 

[Aniolas]

Name a character that does better than Peach and Puff on that stage then.

Fox hasn't got much room + gets chaingrabbed + gets owned by the road (ok, this one is already more acceptable) + has a harder time KOing.

Falco well, let's just not talk about him, shall we?

Sheik has no edge to grab when recovering.

Marth hasn't got a quite good time moving on that stage either, in general he hates everything that's not neutral. Not sure wheter the absence of platforms is good or bad for him, in general he has a harder time KOing too.

C.Falcon hasn't got the room he needs + gets chaingrabbed.

ICs do fine as long as the stage doesn't land, but their recovery gets screwed too and they aren't nearly as good as Peach.

Fox: Sure, he has a pretty hard time. But you can waveshine the other out from the platform (and the other can't SDI and take an edge). And it's pretty easy to punish with an up-smash when you're getting back to the platform when it's no edges.

Sheik: Tech chase on the small platform, and just fair the other on out and throw needles. Due no edge you can **** them out pretty easy when they're trying to get back.

CF: It's a big stage, he survies a long time and has no problem to combo and KO due the lack of edges.


Personally, I love to play against Peach on MC.

 

[Fuzzyness]

I dont mind playing against peach on mute city, there's some good advantages with CF like NOT BEING ABLE TO RUN AWAY

 

[Tero.]

(the following is only my personal opinion, many of you will probably disagree, but please let's not discuss this right now)

I don't really care how many stages are allowed, but there are stages that are in the same category, meaning if you ban one of them you have to ban all. Respectively if you allow one of them you have to allow all.

Mute City, Corneria, Floats and Brinstar are in one category so if Mute City and Brinstar are on the stagelist Floats and Corneria should be too.

Neutral:
FD, BF, DL
YS, PS, FoD
(I put FoD into CP because we only use 5 stages for striking and since it's banned in doubles it's easier this way)

Semi-neutral:
KJ
RC
(RC is highly arguable)

Counterpick:
Pokefloats, Brinstar
Corneria, Mute City

For international events I'd only use the first two categories or maybe even only the first one, for regional/local I'd use all of them.

_______________________________________________​

Also I think that Peach and Jigglypuff are by far the best characters on Mute City. No ledges + the street hurt the spacies and Sheik/Marth too much while neither Peach nor Jigglypuff needs them (Float + Jumps).

I think it's sad that the host stick to their "it's our tournament, we decide the rules mentality" afterall you are holding this tournament for the community not for yourself, aren't you?

Someone could think you just want to keep Mute City legal because both of the hosts main Peach, that would be a pretty sad reasoning.

 

[VA]

I agree with Tero.

KJ is the only stage that is sort of netural that isn't one of the neturals. Neutral stages are neutral by logic, they wouldn't be in the neutral stages if they favoured one character that strongly.

MC, RC and Brinstar are all **** stages, I don't get why tournament organisers allow them.

Smash was not made with balance in mind. In order to balance it, tournaments must have good rulesets otherwise certain match ups can become unfair for the average player.

 

[Aldwyn McCloud]

Fox: Sure, he has a pretty hard time. But you can waveshine the other out from the platform (and the other can't SDI and take an edge). And it's pretty easy to punish with an up-smash when you're getting back to the platform when it's no edges.

Sheik: Tech chase on the small platform, and just fair the other on out and throw needles. Due no edge you can **** them out pretty easy when they're trying to get back.

CF: It's a big stage, he survies a long time and has no problem to combo and KO due the lack of edges.


Personally, I love to play against Peach on MC.

If you love playing against Peach on MC is one thing. I've never seen anyone choose Mute City against Peach as a counterpick. On the other hand, when possible, I've always seen Peach players pick it.

Being able to set up a series of waveshine isn't as easy as it seems and others can punish Fox's recovery just as much as he can punish the others'

Sheik's tech chase doesn't depend on the platform she is on, and fairing an opponent out + throwing needles is a thing you can do on any other stage as well. Mute City has no edges but also has a road that saves opponent from getting gimped. So it doesn't really change anything in her favor. Against Peach she just gets mauled because of the lack of space. Peach gets close to her and it's gg.

As for CF, Mute City is NOT a big stage. That statement is only valid if the main platform has landed on the road, in which case CF's opponent (Peach?) will just wait for the stage to start moving again. Plus, he gets chaingrabbed by Peach too and the lack of edges helps more his opponent taking advantage of his recovery than him to land comboes and KO his opponents (and I don't really see any connection between lack of edges and CF's ability to KO either).

EDIT: Also, Tero pretty much hit the nail on the head with its list. And I'm not really that sure of RC being so neutral either, I'd agree even more if it was just the 6 neutrals + KJ.

 

[Aniolas]

When you don't have an edge you can grab, so you have to land on the platform
CF can just grab you , or dair to fair combo.

About Sheik, smaller platform = easier tech chase.

"(O)thers can punish Fox's recovery just as much as he can punish the others", which indicates that it's pretty fair?

 

[Aldwyn McCloud]

About Sheik, smaller platform = easier tech chase.

"(O)thers can punish Fox's recovery just as much as he can punish the others", which indicates that it's pretty fair?

Which indicates it doesn't give Fox any advantage whatsoever while giving others (Peach?) advantage because of the stage being a mini version of FD.

I don't think Sheik really needs a small stage to tech chase properly. If she's good enough, she'll do fine anyway.

I actually thought better on CF KOing opponents and yes, the abscence of edges along with the abscence of platforms does help, however doesn't make up for the lack of room the stage as. Edgeguarding is only a small part of the game.