Becoming a 2011 Snake: A Metagame Advancement Thread

[ZTD | TECHnology]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=283341&highlight=metagame&page=4



I strongly believe that we should keep an active Metagame discussion thread like the one posted above open since our backroom is dead anyway. I feel like we a lot of knowledgeable members on this board of lurkers that can help us develop our character's metagame. And so I would like to try to bring more attention and activity towards the topic.

Topics of Interest

• Cypher Jumping and Advanced Applications
• Maximizing the art of "Tech Chasing"
• Mix-ups
• New Stage Control Setups
• "Where does Snake 'actually' belong on the tier list?"
  

And I'm sure there are more topics for us to delve into. We realize that we've seen a lot a decline in top placing Snakes as the metagame has developed but we can change this. Let's get discussion up and running again and get it organized and see what we can do.

 

[Wilmenz]

Please don't even think about Cypher jumping ._.

 

[Underload]

I truly believe that Snake is now the 5th or 6th best character in the game, when I stack him up against the competition. There's not enough representation for him these days. That, and other character have just developed so much (Diddy and Olimar especially) that they've simply surpassed Snake.

More Snakes should really incorporate dash attack into their tech chasing game. If you ever screw up a read, or just want to get your opponent in a bad position in the air (ex. Falco, Marth, other Snakes), you can just throw out a well-spaced dash attack.

My two cents for now.

 

[Mr.-0]

I don't think that you guys will have any good representation until Ally pulls his head out of his but. I have no clue what's wrong with him, but... I lost my Smash idol

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Ally was my Smash Idol as well but that way of thinking will bring your character no where. At some point you have to think less about your idols and think more about what YOU can do to make a difference in your character's metagame. Time waits for no one.

Now to touch on what UL has posted. I do believe that Dash attack is a pretty good option that we could/should consider into our tech chasing game. Man I could write a book on this stuff..lol But seriously D-Throw puts us in an advantageous position. If Infern (name search mo***kah) can get away with Dairs out of it why can't we consider safer options like Dash attack. Tech chasing opens up another world of options that most Snakes are too afraid to explore. But if we are to grow we need to explore this stuff more and see what works and what doesn't.

And I also feel like Snake should be 5th/6th on the tier list but I have already explained my reasoning in another thread.

I would also like to see if anyone has found any neat applications of Cypher Jumping. Why shouldn't we try to use this technique. No matter how situational something is, it has a use. We should always know our options.

 

[Underload]

As a footnote, 9 times out of 10, dash attack is your safest option in any given situation.

I'd really like a clear-cut compare / contrast of using dash attack vs. DACUS. The two seem interchangeable to me, but I know I shouldn't be thinking that. TC? Somebody?

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Are there any particular situations you're referring to or just in general?

 

[Underload]

Probably as a ranged punisher move.

Like, my opponent is coming down onto the stage from above, and I'm not quick enough as Snake to run up -> shield -> ftilt/utilt or whatever. So I just try to exteeeeeeeend as much as I can with dash attack. A great example of this is a Metaknight tornadoing, popping me in the air, then retreating to compensate for the landing lag.

 

[-Googs]

Dash attack is a great move for snake, It's great because even if they shield it, you can Dacus off the shield it's really useful

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I'm half drunk and asleep now. I will post a synopsis/my two cents on the matter when I wake up tomorrow, UL. I've got a bit to say about this subject.

That shouldn't stop other Snakes from posting though


Okay:

Dash attack I feel is good as a general ranged punisher when you need to tack on the pressure. Like in certain MUs like Olimar, Falco, anyone that outcamps us...we need this move to get in. No matter how it hits it usually puts the opponent in a bad position..right above us. And from there we can get those grenades ready to set up control. I like dash attack because its an indirect setup move of sorts. It's a quick clean way to get the opponent in the air and allows us to setup for how they land.

I feel Mortarslide is better used for retreating personally. I mean if you connect with the Dash attack and turn it into the slide then you've essentially covered yourself because the opponent won't be able to counter it. They'll have to worry about getting hit into the Mortar (depending on the %). I really just use the slide to either run or the occasional gimmicks associated with picking up Grenades. Or to chase an airborne opponent. But in all honesty I've felt like my time is better spent setting up then chasing. Then again my edgeguarding game isn't the best.

Hmm I have yet to really play around with the Slide after a tech chase also. It may have some interesting mind games associated with it.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Do not forget that dash attack has two hitboxes. A strong and weak hitbox. It is weaker at the end of the attack, but stronger upclose. Also, I have never been able to Dacus off of the weak hit. It seems you can do it anywhere between the start up and strong hitbox. Now with that out of the way...

You need to space the strong hit at lower percents. The weak hitbox is too punishable. Even at around mid percents heavier characters can punish you. Dash attack is best used as that punisher or trying to get in on someone who keeps spamming a particular approach that you need a fast burst to get into. The only problem I run into is timing :/

Also, I suppose it is good at trying to be a get away tactic. Preferably when someone is not on the ground. In the air or on a platform.

Personally, I find the slide to be a horrible punisher. The only useful thing I found was when I managed to space it right, then mortar slide underneath someone so that the mortar comes out when they SH. Really rare that happens though. You pretty much have to get a read that they will jump as you start up the move. Actually, dash attack is only good a punisher in the strong hit range. First 5-6 frames of the attack.

 

[Underload]

The weak hitbox is the most useful, imo. It's what I usually have to rely on when punishing tornadoing MKs and stuff like that.

If you're just stupidly aggressive (you're Snake, you can do that kind of stuff), you'll punish a Metaknight with weak dash, then **** his **** with a random utilt / ftilt / whatever. They don't really expect it, and the element of surprise is seriously one of the things that makes Snake viable.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I use the weak hit against those who outcamp us. In drastic situations I'll save the strong hitbox as its not bad at killing. But its moreso the weak hitbox that sets up more desirable situations for us.

The slide by itself is a horrible punisher. I cant see any reason to use it unless its the only way to hit someone from a distance. Though....

I have gotten some retardedly funny kills several times by picking up a grenade with a Slide and using the mortar start up hit box to hit into the mortar and then throwing the Grenade upward. At 70-90% its kills. Higher percents and they have enough time to airdodge out but you can still read the airdodge at any percent. I've ****ed so many people up like this LOL

 

[Infern Angelis]

Who summoned me????

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I find that hilarious. Snake meme number 66. Infern summons.

Anyway, a weak hit at low percents should get us punished. The move lasts like 2/3 of a second, and people have moves and reactions that are much, much faster than that. So you still want to space it at lower percents. If not, you give people the chance to hit snake and likely hit him offstage which leads to more percent.

Has anyone tried the viability of double jab cancels? I recently was paying attention to a lot of characters, and often times they are only good because of double jab. I have seen Falco, Mario, Link, and many others make use of double jab. I wonder if Snake could do the same. It is better than trying to do jab -> ftilt if you hit a shield.

 

[iKiLLOTz]

Double jab doesnt work that well for me. I personally dont think it is very good in general, for Snake anyways

But you could always Jab>Jab> F tilt.

Its "slightly" better

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Who summoned me????

MEEEEE. <3

I find that hilarious. Snake meme number 66. Infern summons.

Anyway, a weak hit at low percents should get us punished. The move lasts like 2/3 of a second, and people have moves and reactions that are much, much faster than that. So you still want to space it at lower percents. If not, you give people the chance to hit snake and likely hit him offstage which leads to more percent.

Has anyone tried the viability of double jab cancels? I recently was paying attention to a lot of characters, and often times they are only good because of double jab. I have seen Falco, Mario, Link, and many others make use of double jab. I wonder if Snake could do the same. It is better than trying to do jab -> ftilt if you hit a shield.

This is true. And I have not played around with double jab cancels too often to be honest. I am more prone to use single jab because even if they shield I can still Jab > Grab and for my play style I'd rather go for the grab in that case. <3 tech chasing lol. But I suppose it depends on the trajectory that the second jab hits the opponent in. I know the first jab has two different ways it hits people depending on whether you spaced it or not. Hmm..I think I will screw around with this today.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

:/ Yeah, double jab is too random. It was funny to see at times wehen you double jab that it would put marth so far away from snake, that marth's own jab would not hit snake, but Snake's ftilt would xD

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

We just broke the Marth/Snake MU XD

 

[Blacknight99923]

if only marths actually used jab.

anyway I am not kidding when I say read SuSa's guide to tech chasing if it is still there.

Because SuSa is the only snake that gets follow ups on me after reading that.

 

[jinkogunai]

i used double jab for a while and it seems that its not too effective. the only real follow up is grabbing, but they're a little too far for it. single jab seems to be good because it's has enough range to space for ftilt and grab.

also about the dash attack, i use it to hit people who try to space their aerials (for example, mk's fair, pika's fair, falco's bair, ect). I don't know if they just dont block after, but it seems to hit them before they can react or hit the ground.

 

[DarkLouis331]

I've been messing around on wifi. For my personal game, I've found Ftilt1/jab > grab > pummels > dthrow >tech chase > ftilt finish to be really effective. That's ~35-40% or more right there.

Just don't spam this pattern or you'll get punished. Sometimes it's best to just get the ~20% with 2 ftilts.

I've been getting a hell of alot more grabs in my game because of this. I'm dying to see if it'll work in person. lol

 

[Infern Angelis]

MEEEEE. <3

What can i do for you?

 

[MoNrA.1]

Double jab doesnt work that well for me. I personally dont think it is very good in general, for Snake anyways

But you could always Jab>Jab> F tilt.

Its "slightly" better

is great setup for wi fi players xD

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I've been messing around on wifi. For my personal game, I've found Ftilt1/jab > grab > pummels > dthrow >tech chase > ftilt finish to be really effective. That's ~35-40% or more right there.

Just don't spam this pattern or you'll get punished. Sometimes it's best to just get the ~20% with 2 ftilts.

I've been getting a hell of alot more grabs in my game because of this. I'm dying to see if it'll work in person. lol

I've played around with that a little bit. It's less likely to work offline BUT some people will might spotdodge or shield after being pummel released so it works every so often for me. I'd be wary against using this against anyone with a solid jab or tilt though.

What can i do for you?

Post informative stuff.

 

[clowsui]

I've been messing around on wifi. For my personal game, I've found Ftilt1/jab > grab > pummels > dthrow >tech chase > ftilt finish to be really effective. That's ~35-40% or more right there.

Just don't spam this pattern or you'll get punished. Sometimes it's best to just get the ~20% with 2 ftilts.

I've been getting a hell of alot more grabs in my game because of this. I'm dying to see if it'll work in person. lol

It won't, I consistently pre-SDI jabs/ftilts and your dthrow reads are really predictable because you don't change your position enough.

 

[Infern Angelis]

Im partying tomorrow night and getting phone #s left and right, there u go TC.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Thanks. I'll summon you again next month

 

[False]

MEEEEE. <3



I know the first jab has two different ways it hits people depending on whether you spaced it or not. Hmm..I think I will screw around with this today.

If you land the jab near Snake's bicep (upper arm) it usually sends them too far to actually follow up with a grab and they will be able to shield the following f-tilt. Although dash grabbing is viable I find pivot grabbing really useful in these kind of situations and less punishable.

However.. If you whap their face with Snake's fist.. Then prepare for tilt profit.

 

[awsomesauce]

More Snakes could try to use up tilt in their game. Instead of saving it for just killing you could use its range to your advantage. It also could catch your opponent off guard. I would not use to often though as it would get predictable fast. Just an idea I considered.
edit: ninja

 

[False]

If the reason for using utilt for the sake of range was your only reason then dtilt would sound more viable.

 

[awsomesauce]

If the reason for using utilt for the sake of range was your only reason then dtilt would sound more viable.

Depends if they are in the ground or the air. Though keeping up tilt fresh is probably the smarter thing to do, so using d-tilt is good and surprising. Your opponent would not easily predict a down tilt. I still will rarely use d-tilt as f-tilt is a better damage racker.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

When do Snakes not use enough Up-Tilt??


And if people are afraid of staling their tilts then go read Corpsecreate's thread on refreshing your moves using your explosives.

 

[OnlyUseMeNades]

In case you guys didn't see this:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=11906542#post11906542

That could be pretty helpful for Snake especially

 

[Kuro~]

we can already utilt his nado so its not that particularly useful for us. Only thing i could see this used for is if snake is one of the characters that can grab=free tech chase. Or if u dont want to stale utilt which shouldnt be problem anyways cuz we can refresh super ez but in case you dont you can use it to jab.

 

[Kuro~]

When do Snakes not use enough Up-Tilt??


And if people are afraid of staling their tilts then go read Corpsecreate's thread on refreshing your moves using your explosives.

oh can u post that i forgot to bookmark it and cant find it now. i remember most of it. but still.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Only bad MKs let themselves get Up-Tilted out of Nado.And we could use this other any other attack as well.

PSC > Jab > F-Tiilt or D-Throw Tech Chase anyone?

Its called "Exclusive Snake Technique" you can search for it . Its still on the first page I think . I'm on my. Phone so its too much of a hassle to link. I'm at the Lions'/Vikings game lol

 

[Kuro~]

Only bad MKs let themselves get Up-Tilted out of Nado.And we could use this other any other attack as well.

PSC > Jab > F-Tiilt or D-Throw Tech Chase anyone?

Its called "Exclusive Snake Technique" you can search for it . Its still on the first page I think . I'm on my. Phone so its too much of a hassle to link. I'm at the Lions'/Vikings game lol

No it happens to everyone....and ya thats what i was sayin jab would be better anyways.

 

[OnlyUseMeNades]

He means this: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=289211

The Snake Refreshing Moves Thing

I don't really understand what to do, could someone tell me what the inputs are for the PSC?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I don't really understand what to do, could someone tell me what the inputs are for the PSC?

Practice this. Place a mine down, dash towards it; shielding at the last second before hitting it. Press the attack button once almost immediately after shielding, but release your hold on the buttons. If you did this quickly enough, you will have buffered a jab from the powershield.

All it really does is by passes 7 frames that are typically used to drop shield from powershielding.

To do anything else you will need to replace the jab with some other input like Utilt. But the rest should be the same.