BBR's Match-up Chart for Mario

[Matt07]

@Phiddlesticks - In my opinion, he has better range overall, and had an easier time landing K.O's, and is harder to gimp.

 

[KMFBrawler]

Dude, I'm glad Marth is a bad MU for Mario, Ilose to those all the time with Mario

 

[JuxtaposeX]

@A2Z - Of course, Bowser can't do anything like shield, or airdodge or anything because Mario can make perfect reads and reactions to anything he does 100% of the time due to Bowser being a bad character. Nothing anyone does against Mario is safe on block, because... you know he'll always block it.

 

[Matador]

p.p.s. what does lucas have that makes the matchup harder for mario than ness

His moveset is just a little better vs Mario than Ness.

His downB shuts down fireball approaches much better since we're generally directly behind it while using it as an approach.

His upB is very effective at gimping.

His Ftilt's range and speed mean trouble for our ground game.

His Dair beats everything we've got from above, and is a kill set-up.

Gimping is much more difficult.

And his kills come as early/easily as ours do.

There's more, but that's the general idea. He just covers our options a little better than Ness does. I think we have a slight advantage on Ness, but I could see it being even as well.

 

[Kanzaki]

I fight Lucas and Ness all day, so yes I do agree, we have a slight advantage over Ness, and Lucas have a slight advantage over us. Reason is due to the reasons Matador said and more. If you have any more questions Phiddlesticks, few free to ask, and I'll list.

And A2Z, only cause you, and/or your friends, sucks as Bowser, doesn't mean the character's bad... just sayin =/

 

[A2ZOMG]

My Bowser is fairly legit. It comes from using Ganon.

I can recognize however that the VAST MAJORITY of people do not undestand how to play against Bowser, from playing against people who suck against mine. He's annoying until you realize he basically dies after taking like...4 hits. 1 hit that combos him past 50%, 2 hits that do about 30% to him by juggling him intelligently, one more that gets him offstage past 100% where he has no options against the entire cast.

Then he's not even an inferior Snake. He's just a heap of fail that can't even survive.

@A2Z - Of course, Bowser can't do anything like shield, or airdodge or anything because Mario can make perfect reads and reactions to anything he does 100% of the time due to Bowser being a bad character. Nothing anyone does against Mario is safe on block, because... you know he'll always block it.

Bowser shielding generally gets ***** by Mario hard. Bowser's options against Mario's B-air spacing are very very limited. He's also very easy for Mario to shield poke with fireballs, and getting grabbed by Mario is unaffordable for him.

And Bowser can't airdodge lol. Especially not offstage given it is the laggiest airdodge in the game by far and just gets autoraped for free by spamming the A button. Even onstage though it gets ***** for free by Mario's D-air.

 

[Kanzaki]

Bowser isn't Ganon.

 

[A2ZOMG]

True. He actually outright loses to Ganon. Ganon goes even with Ganon.

Bowser is only better because of failing less in a few other matchups.

 

[HeroMystic]

No, I believe that Bowser beats us, but not by much. This may just be me being worse than Fizzle (he is a DDD main, but used to main Bowser and still plays him in matches - regardless, I play him in matches every tournament). He's not fast, but his tilts and aerials control a lot of space where Mario can't really do much. I will admit though, getting him past 100 on the ledge pretty much means a free stock. It's just getting to that point.

It's Even at worst.

Bowser has good range, but poor control. If he ****s up he becomes juggle fodder, and it's pretty easy to bait a tilt or an aerial with fake pressure.

Should note though that his shield sucks since he's so huge, so shield poking him is easy if you apply enough pressure. One D-air would be enough.

Granted, F-air and F-tilt are good spacers, while Up-B OOS is a good GTFO move, so you can't go willy-nilly on him, but if you stay back and just bait moves, he can't do much about it. Keep in mind Mario isn't forced to approach Bowser either, which makes his space control even less viable.

Double post, I don't think Ike is even. That matchup is stupid. But I also don't know it.

The Ike MU is all about the jab. If you can get past the jab you can relatively get past everything else (N-air, F-air). The major problem of this MU is that Ike has the second best jab in the game, and it combos into a kill move (B-air), so once you get up to 90% you have to be really careful, especially since just about everything else in his moveset kills too.

U-Smash covers a ****ton of range too, and has enough active frames to make charging it viable.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ike is boring to play against given you can only play one way against him. Just never approach him recklessly, and spotdodging is unwise against him. Fireball outside of his range to keep him from committing to anything silly. Learn the timing of shieldgrabbing or doing other stuff oos against Jabs, and try to SDI if they actually hit you. Play a better midrange spacing game with tilts and B-air as long as you're sure he's not going to be trying to F-air you on a read. U-air and U-tilt juggles are amazing on Ike when they happen, and putting Ike above you is also amazing.

Also learn to edgeguard him. Invincible ledgedrops **** his low recovery. FLUDD ***** his high recovery usually. Saving your midair jump is hugely important in general when you're above Ike and offstage, given he doesn't really have many options to chase after it when it's used correctly. Cape Stalling is a decent alternative as well as long as you use these options in reaction to Ike doing a move.

Furthermore I don't think he combos Mario into B-air after Jab1. D-smash is an option though from what I heard from Renegade. That kills at more like...130%.

 

[Matt07]

Kanzaki should definitely help me with Ness/Lucas match-up , I hate those matches >_>.

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

Hmm.. uh I thought we have a slight adv vs Jiggly due to rapeage K.O power and a slight disadvantage vs Kirby due to his dair gimps the crap outta my recovery. Lucario is very rare to me. I luv the Mario vs Wario MU, seems fun to me, I have no prob w/ that. I definitely agree that we have a disadvantage vs Diddy...

Edit: I luv the Ness and Lucas MU, Fow and Mekos are so fun to play. <3

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ness is difficult if your spacing is not COMPLETELY on point, which makes the matchup not unlike Yoshi in a sense, except trading with Yoshi is usually more favorable. Mario's tools are good against Ness onstage due to his better mobility and attack speed as well as better ground game generally speaking. Regardless you have to be very careful about not getting into many trades for the simple fact that Ness has higher damage output than you do and because it's not hard for him to keep his B-throw fresh for kills at around 120-130%.

I think spamming fireballs from the start of the match is an overlooked tactic, but I haven't played ViceGrip enough to test the practicality of it. The idea behind this tactic is that fireballs are not meant to damage Ness, but to limit his spacing options. The less damage your fireballs do, the less reward he gets for absorbing them. The matchup would be really obviously in Mario's favor either if fireballs did less damage, Mario's moves did more damage, or if Ness didn't have PSI magnet. But because of the way things are, Ness is pretty close in this matchup.

Cape and FLUDD and fireballs are all pretty good against Ness's recovery, though ViceGrip usually recovers high against me (or he leaves the option open to recover high and finds a way to sweetspot the ledge from multiple angles) and is pretty good about avoiding getting outright gimped. Jab2 -> D-smash I feel is important in this matchup if you're having trouble scoring kills by gimping or Up-smash specifically.

To be honest I think Lucas is easier to deal with simply because he's not as damaging or as strong at KOs as Ness, and because ViceGrip is exceptionally hard to outright gimp. He does have more mobility though and his F-tilt is a kinda annoying move to deal with on the ground, but you don't really have to worry as much when pressuring him given he's not able to punish you as hard for it. I might consider swapping their positions on my personal chart.

Hmm.. uh I thought we have a slight adv vs Jiggly due to rapeage K.O power and a slight disadvantage vs Kirby due to his dair gimps the crap outta my recovery. Lucario is very rare to me. I luv the Mario vs Wario MU, seems fun to me, I have no prob w/ that. I definitely agree that we have a disadvantage vs Diddy...

Hard to say, a campy Jiggs if you ask me is harder than a campy Kirby. And you benefit less from CPing Jiggs. She also does have good edgeguards on you with her F-air.

But you do trade a bit more favorably with Jiggs. She's also the one character in the game you can F-smash after Jab canceling lol.

And yeah, Mario vs Wario is super fun.

 

[HeroMystic]

I think Ness has to be more on point with his spacing than Mario does.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Well challenging Ness's F-air directly with anything other than Up-smash and fireballs is a no usually, and Ness's F-air does set up some strings at low percents. So actually Mario has to play pretty legit to win this matchup. Furthermore as silly as it sounds, it can be tricky to properly time shieldgrabbing F-air assuming Ness is in range for it. Ideally that kind of thing shouldn't happen, but it's something you have to actually be aware of.

Furthermore Ness's retreat B-air is mostly not unsafe for him to do, and if you bite it, it hurts.

His N-air out of shield is also a bit more powerful than yours, and while he usually won't kill with it, it does kill earlier than yours.

I do think Mario outspaces Ness technically and thus has slight advantage, but Ness's reward on hit makes the matchup more difficult, given that you already have to be playing pretty intelligently to make sure his F-air isn't simply running you over, which it shouldn't be since you outmaneuver him, but his F-air is something you have to actually know how to deal with. Once you're at percents where his B-throw can kill you, the margin of error is even thinner given that his grab becomes one more thing to legitimately respect.

So yeah, this isn't a matchup you can just expect to win easily from my experience, given that Ness is always able to threaten a kill with grab once you reach high percents. You have to play super legit to truly pull out ahead. It's one of those matchups where knowing how to use all of Mario's tools effectively is especially important.

I mean fighting Bowser is fairly easy to win on autopilot once you combo him and get him offstage at high percents. Fighting Snake in many ways can be done on autopilot given it's not hard to judge what approaches he can and can't punish, nor is it really difficult to set up Snake for easy juggle kills when the KO percent is right. Fighting a Ness, especially like ViceGrip is a matchup you can't do on autopilot. You just have to constantly be spacing your best if they're at least as good as you are.

 

[JuxtaposeX]

I have an easier time using Bowser vs MK than Mario.
Up'B OOS is too good.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I feel the same way against people who don't understand how to play against Bowser in general.

Like, I probably could mess with ViceGrip with my Bowser. Except I taught him how to edgeguard in that matchup.

 

[HeroMystic]

I have an easier time using Bowser vs MK than Mario.
Up'B OOS is too good.

The MKs are actually getting close enough for Bowser to use Up-B OOS?

 

[JuxtaposeX]

Not good ones, but still his Up'B OoS is still amazing

 

[Phiddlesticks]

The MKs are actually getting close enough for Bowser to use Up-B OOS?

rarely, if ever

but thats why, unlike his matchup with mario, bowser loses to meta knight xDDDDD

 

[Jimmyfosho]

So does this mean we should convert our current MU ratio(50:50, 60:40 etc.) to this (-1,0,+1 etc.)?

 

[HeroMystic]

Yes, though if we do it this way we'll likely have to re-evaluate all the placements for MUs since we're basically not using the chart like a tier list anymore. (i.e., the infamous 62:38 ratio vs Marth).

Note I didn't say rediscuss MUs (for the most part anyway), just check all the placements.

 

[A2ZOMG]

rarely, if ever

but thats why, unlike his matchup with mario, bowser loses to meta knight xDDDDD

Bowser loses to everyone. Including Ganondorf, the worst character in the game.

In the vast majority of matchups, you should basically NEVER get Up-Bed out of shield except when Bowser juggles/edgetraps you. He's the largest target in the game. Spacing safely against him is really easy when everything fullhopped hits him.

It's easy for everyone to avoid that ****. Even Ganondorf doesn't really get ***** by it. And he's just far worse to Bowser in general in his ability to just kill Bowser effortlessly.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Thank god we have A2 who has figured this game out completely already.

 

[Matador]

I mean, the only real issues on this list are MK and PT.

Everything else is within the realm of possibility.

 

[HeroMystic]

Including Peach being -2?

 

[Jimmyfosho]

Even though I'm bad at the peach mu Imo it's -1 for us

 

[Fizzle_Boy]

No, I believe that Bowser beats us, but not by much. This may just be me being worse than Fizzle (he is a DDD main, but used to main Bowser and still plays him in matches - regardless, I play him in matches every tournament). He's not fast, but his tilts and aerials control a lot of space where Mario can't really do much. I will admit though, getting him past 100 on the ledge pretty much means a free stock. It's just getting to that point.

I only ever mained Bowser at 5:00am. I think it's 55:45 Mario's favor. If he camps, Bowser loses.

edit: +1 then I guess

 

[Jimmyfosho]

hardcore namesearches

 

[Juushichi]

I mentioned Fizzle particularly to get him here, lol.

 

[Fizzle_Boy]

Good mindgame Juu. Namesearch is my greatest weakness (besides cape).

 

[Matt07]

Umm, how do you guys feel about Ganon being -1?

I believe Ganon has the tools to win the match-up, -2 I just feel its too much...

 

[HeroMystic]

If you run into **** then yes Ganon would win the match-up.

As I said a long time ago, Mario has to know how to play each match-up correctly as he is a balanced character. He has no real exploit outside of the Cape, and until people realize this, match-ups will always appear harder than they actually are.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Umm, how do you guys feel about Ganon being -1?

I believe Ganon has the tools to win the match-up, -2 I just feel its too much...

Ganon definitely loses -2 at least against Mario. I've played this matchup more than enough on both sides to understand this.

Minus the fact Mario is just a little weaker than some characters and doesn't kill Ganon quite as early as he'd like, he honestly just flat out destroys Ganon in neutral position.

Ganon has like no answers to Mario's fullhop B-air and fireball spacing. He's just not punishing it period. He's also a character who cannot shieldgrab in between hits of Mario's Jab combo, and he has no landing options except for aerial Wizkick, which basically puts him in Snake status, where if he's above you at KO percents, he's going to get killed by U-smash pretty much no matter what he does as long as your reactions are good. He's suuuper easy to bait into F-smash just because everything he does has fail ending lag and sucks at stopping Mario from spacing B-airs for free. His Jab is the only Jab in the game that fails on spotdodge, having 25 frames of ENDING LAG on top of the 8-9 frame startup.

It is true that Mario is very easy for Ganon to juggle for massive damage given that Ganon does have the ability to autobait and punish Mario's airdodge with U-air, but really. If you're not reckless, it just shouldn't happen often at all given that your tools just completely dominate stage control. He can't challenge your B-air and fireballs if you space them correctly, and you don't have to work hard to kill him as long as you don't try to force kills when they won't work.

I didn't even mention that FLUDD, N-air, and Fireballs are really awful to his recovery.

 

[fromundaman]

I only ever mained Bowser at 5:00am. I think it's 55:45 Mario's favor. If he camps, Bowser loses.

edit: +1 then I guess

5:00 AM Bowser wrecks drunk Y.b.M. though XD (More namesearches!)



Also I have to ask, why do you guys even care so much about where you place Bowser? I mean the character is simply not worth this much debates. There are probably more posts about this MU in this thread than there ever have been tournament matches of this MU in Smash history.


Oh, and this made me lol so hard:

all this time i thought my controller was broken because every once in awhile none of my buttons would do anything

turns out i was just offstage as bowser above 100%, duh

If I didn't love Viewtiful Joe so much, I'd have that as my sig.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I care about discussing the Bowser matchup because what little success Bowser has against anyone is an indicator of how bad the average smasher is at basic fundamentals. Bowser flat out loses to good fundamentals and has no advantageous matchups as a result.

 

[Kanzaki]

So now EVERYBODY'S bad..? Good lord, obvious troll is obvious.

 

[A2ZOMG]

It's not my fault if you're terrible at the Bowser matchup. Don't cry about it. Get better at this game. Everything pro ***** Bowser. And I'm always serious.

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

Bowser MU is fun and easy, reminds me of the Snake MU due to having one of the worst aerials in the game.

 

[Juushichi]

What? Snake doesn't have one of the worst aerials in the game, lol.