BBR's Match-up Chart for Mario

[A2ZOMG]

Snake's aerials are all good. They're absolutely terrible for air to ground combat though, so they only can be used as punishers.

It's the same for Bowser, except he only has one good aerial, and unlike Snake he pretty much isn't allowed to edgeguard you for the most part.

 

[Matt07]

@Hero, and A2 - Thanks, I can see why we have a -2 on him now, haha. I just play too aggresive xP.

 

[A2ZOMG]

It's not about being too aggressive. It's about being aggressive at the right times.

You are supposed to play defense against Bowser until he inevitably leaves himself open. At which point I assume you're either going to have an opportunity to combo, juggle, or edgeguard him. Go all out when that happens.

I'm going to say it again, but Bowser just gets ***** by everything pro. He has no gay way of stopping you from being a pro to him once he's left himself open. You don't need the Ice Climber's infinites to rub it in Bowser's face that he's a bad character. Simply knowing your combos, being good at juggling, and understanding the fundamentals behind edgeguarding alone beats him.

 

[Matt07]

Oh woops, my post was referring to the Ganon match-up, sorry about that .

 

[Phiddlesticks]

cool, nowadays you dont even need to be talking about bowser to incite an over the top bowser rant from a2zomg

 

[A2ZOMG]

Oh well, barely matters. They both suck. They both belong in the same tier. And most of the same tactics dominate them. Bowser is slightly more annoying in neutral position, but at the same time is a lot more fragile.

 

[fromundaman]

Guys, please just agree to disagree. Obviously none of you are going to change your mind, and Bowser isn't the only character on this chart.
Save this for a MU discussion thread and tier list thread please. This is starting to get out of hand.

 

[HeroMystic]

Save this for a MU discussion thread and tier list thread please.

This is an MU discussion thread.

 

[fromundaman]

I should have said for a Bowser one rather.
I realize this is a general MU thread, but yeah, that discussion is going nowhere and is causing more flaming than anything else.
Move onto another character maybe?

 

[Kanzaki]

Oh hey, I had no idea who Phiddlesticks was, and now I'm actually on a computer(instead of my phone), and I see a Bowser next to his name. Makes so much more sense now <3


Fromundaman, you do realize it only escalates cause A2Z's quite stubborn, and then start calling people bad, despite not having any backup evidence for him self, except for against his friends, or the 2 rounds he plays of said character. You can warn me again, or give me more infractions, I'm just letting people aware of A2Z's "knowledge" of the game, and not get too worked up in a flame war to figure out which character is better.

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

Lol, I meant his air game, his aerials are mad gud, it's slow and easy to avoid tho.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Kanzaki, it's your own fault for interpreting what I say as an insult. I'm not targeting anyone in specific when I say the average smasher is bad. Furthermore being bad is not unique. It's just the way the majority of players are. There's only a few players who can play on point consistently.

You need to lighten up above anything else. You're far more stubborn AND far less researched than I am (I'll go so far to add that my tournament relevant experience is far more recent than yours), and I don't want to hear your denial of that statement when everything you post in response to me is evidence of that.

I'll leave it up to you to make the decision to discuss things intelligently with me. It's not my problem to force you to do it, but it would be to your benefit to consider it.

 

[JuxtaposeX]

I'm not targeting anyone in specific when I say the average smasher is bad.

Rephrased: I'm not calling anyone specifically bad, I'm calling EVERYONE bad.

 

[fromundaman]

Seriously guys, cut it out.

 

[HeroMystic]

To put this back on topic:

I think we need to put up another discussion thread for the next character. I nominate:

 

[Matador]

Let's do ZSS. I know that match-up very well.

You guys prolly wouldn't like what I have to say about G&W anyways, lol.

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

Same here, Matador.

 

[JuxtaposeX]

ZZS: **** ARMOR PIECES HOLY**** GET RID OF THEM ASAP THEY WILL ****ING **** YOU.
Seriously. Her side-B and dsmash are pretty easy to predict anyways, just be careful.

 

[fromundaman]

No kidding. I used to keep them thinking I could use them just as well... Boy was I wrong. You can keep them around ZSS' with bad item control. Unfortunately, I don't think those exist. Get rid of them pieces!

Not really sure how to actually play this MU though. I tend to camp a lot.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Bait her, and ledgecamp to get rid of the item pieces. Intelligent Capes are the other way to deal with those item pieces.

Don't Cape Stall against the D-smash. While Ness, G&W, and Lucas can absorb it, your Cape does not reflect it. It's the only hitbox in the game with that precise set of properties.

Ducking is super good against ZSS. I don't have a list of things you can duck under yet, but she literally can't hit you with any aerial but a perfectly spaced N-air if you duck (shield the D-air on reaction if she ever does it). Other things I want to see if you can duck under...Dash Attack and U-tilt. I strongly suspect this is the case. Ducking at certain ranges I think also can avoid her SideB, though I wouldn't count on it.

When in doubt, shield against ZSS. She has very few ways around it.

All in all you want to get past her SideB range and then play from there. She'll try to throw you off with some Dash Attacks here and there, and she'll try to U-air or U-tilt out of shield if she thinks she's in trouble (both of which I think you can duck under, correct me otherwise). Generally if you don't let her hit you with her D-smash, SideB, or any random aerials, she shouldn't be able to kill you easily.

FLUDD seems to be good for edgeguarding her, but I'm still not entirely sure how to edgeguard ZSS's Down-B kick.

 

[HeroMystic]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=298961

 

[KMFBrawler]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=298961

1 last thing though:

A2: I think caping might help with the right timing to keep ZSS offstage

 

[Inferno3044]

Pierce's analysis on vs Marth:

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=12271191&postcount=405

Finally he says it. Also most MK's don't know how to play the Mario MU imo.

Marth should be -2 or -1. What Pierce is missing is that Marth is a WHOLE lot easier to gimp compared to Metaknight.

Metaknight should be -3. According to Metaknight boards, they should be -2 to us since they don't beat us as badly as other characters. That's gotta be one of the most stupid logic I've ever heard/seen. Fact is, they still beat us pretty badly...

Wolf should be -1 or 0... VERY easy to combo, and his recovery is lawl-worthy. I've beaten Wolf players in tourney before, and TBH.. I don't really know what Wolf has over Mario.. maybe his Bair? I don't know.

Game and Watch should be -2. I personally suck against Game and Watch, and his priority completely destroys us.. however, a lot of his moves are slow where as Mario's is fast. If the Mario is fast enough, Game and Watch shouldn't be able to do much.

Donkey Kong should be 0.. We have advantages over him, he has advantages over us.. So they pretty much cancel out?

You guys underestimate Marth so much. Trust me when I say Marth is not that easy to gimp. It's easy to gimp Marth's that don't know what how to get around cape. I have hit Pierce with cape and he still recovered (and I hit him at a good position to use cape). Yes is still harder but he can fly.

Other than Marth I agree

wtf Mario definitely beats Yoshi. Your aerials are better than his and win in terms of damage and priority in most direct exchanges (if you're having trouble with Yoshi's air game, get better at spacing), as well as the fact Yoshi's aerials are generally not very safe for approaching (angle shield better if you're getting poked a lot). You have better kill moves (faster, safer, and more powerful). Fireballs and AutoJabbing limit his defense options significantly, and generally speaking it should not be hard for Mario to approach Yoshi as long as he's not trying to force huge combos.

And Sheik does beat Mario. Slightly, but noticeably. She just has significantly better spacing and ground options than you do. It's not much unlike fighting Pikachu, although Pikachu has a slightly easier time killing. Sheik's aerials are harder for Mario to deal with than Pikachu's, though her recovery is a bit more punishable (though you're probably not going to gimp it often at all).

With Yoshi I think it's unfair to compare their aerials like that. They have different purposes. Mario has has better juggling and edgeguarding tools and Yoshi's is better for shield pressure and killing. I don't remember Yoshi using aerials or even approaching lol. Killing, one of Yoshi's plus's as I said before is that he can kill in the air while Mario really can't. Also Yoshi's Usmash is better for killing. Yoshi's weight also kinda evens it to that they'll die at similar percents.

Sheik I wanna say you're right, but I have no experience.

Rephrased: I'm not calling anyone specifically bad, I'm calling EVERYONE bad.

The average player is bad. I'd consider myself average and I'm pretty bad XD

Also now knowing that slight advantages go into -1 I need to update my version of the chart:

-3:
-2:
-1:
0:
+1:
+2:

Only things I think is up for debate in my head is ICS(-2) and Ike (0)

 

[Matador]

That's my list almost exactly, Inferno.

How d'you figure Yoshi's Usmash is better for killing? They seem really similar to me.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Marth is not easy to gimp, but he is not particularly hard for Mario to edgeguard. You really shouldn't be playing to gimp most characters unless their recovery is especially bad. Edgeguarding and doing it consistently however can be rewarding enough.

Marth happens to hate it a lot when you kill his momentum with FLUDD. Furthermore grabbing the edge against Marth's recovery is really good. Not quite as good as it was in Melee, but the same tactics associated with grabbing the ledge are very viable for punishing Marth's recovery.

 

[Inferno3044]

That's my list almost exactly, Inferno.

How d'you figure Yoshi's Usmash is better for killing? They seem really similar to me.

Well this doesn't apply to Mario, but Yoshi can GR > Usmash on people guaranteed. Why it's better than Mario's is mainly due to its better range (primarily its horizontal range, but vertical as well) and you can get more running distance with it. It might also be a bit stronger but I can't say that for certain.

Marth is not easy to gimp, but he is not particularly hard for Mario to edgeguard. You really shouldn't be playing to gimp most characters unless their recovery is especially bad. Edgeguarding and doing it consistently however can be rewarding enough.

Marth happens to hate it a lot when you kill his momentum with FLUDD. Furthermore grabbing the edge against Marth's recovery is really good. Not quite as good as it was in Melee, but the same tactics associated with grabbing the ledge are very viable for punishing Marth's recovery.

He's not that easy to edgeguard and Marth can edgeguard Mario way better. The only thing about FLUDD is that there isn't much you can do to punish someone after it.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Well this doesn't apply to Mario, but Yoshi can GR > Usmash on people guaranteed. Why it's better than Mario's is mainly due to its better range (primarily its horizontal range, but vertical as well) and you can get more running distance with it. It might also be a bit stronger but I can't say that for certain.

Yoshi's U-smash is noticeably weaker than Mario's. It does slightly more damage, but it has significantly less knockback. It's also slower and laggier than Mario's.

He's not that easy to edgeguard and Marth can edgeguard Mario way better. The only thing about FLUDD is that there isn't much you can do to punish someone after it.

FLUDD is situational but used in the right positions does let Mario space a free hit on Marth's recovery that Marth can only attempt to counter on a read. Plus Brawl players don't know good the ledge is for edgeguarding in general.

And lol Marth doesn't edgeguard Mario way better. He DOES however edgetrap Mario more consistently. Getting up from the ledge against a good Marth is the hard part about recovering against him.

 

[Inferno3044]

Getting up from the ledge against a good Marth is the hard part about recovering against him.

You're telling me. Against a good Marth, my least favorite place to be is the ledge.

Also Marth basically can do what Mario does with edgeguarding but the move is faster and has better range. Also Mario can't do much in front of him while airborne. Yeah you can Uair but it's range is poor and any Marth with anything close to semi decent spacing will have no problem outranging it. Fair is too slow for it to work consistently.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Marth also doesn't have fireballs. He doesn't have FLUDD. He also doesn't have Mario's N-air which in case people forgot is a GOOD option for hitting Marth out of his Up-B. Marth does kinda have the edge when you're at mid level, but when it comes to actually covering more options outside of that, Mario does have more tools to do this.

 

[Kanzaki]

All I really have to say.. you guys gotta learn to edgeguard/gimp. I've gimped MikeHAZE multiple times in past tourney matches, most notably in doubles when I've gimped him, having his partner Havok saving him, then me gimping Havok and having MikeHAZE save him.. then kept going back and forth for a while til I finally gimped both simultaneously. And I used to play with Ken occasionally. True it's Brawl, not Melee, but it's still Ken.

 

[Inferno3044]

I do try to edgeguard and gimp him, but it's really difficult. Past matches could be back in '08 and it's 2011 right now.

 

[A2ZOMG]

If you think edgeguarding Marth is hard, you simply need to get better at it. Options such as fireballs, FLUDD, N-air, and grabbing the ledge can cover the options that you need to cover. Gimping him like any character with a not excessively horrible recovery isn't easy, but you DEFINITELY should be getting mostly free hits on his recovery if you edgeguard correctly.

 

[Delta-cod]

-4: Salty Deltacod
-2: Deltacod
-1:

Fixed for accuracy. =P

Lol @ A2 directly comparing Yoshi's and Mario's aerials as if they'll be clashing like that with any remote frequency. The only aerial matchups I see consistently happening are Yoshi's Uair and Mario's Dair. The rest is Yoshi's Anti-Air to Mario's air game.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Most of the matchup is happening on the ground anyway. Point is Yoshi generally shouldn't be trying to play in the air in this matchup, because Mario wins most air to air exchanges in this matchup. Then again, some Mario players just don't have good spacing and basically let Yoshi B-air them for no reason.