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Basketball Thread

shadrach kabango

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So you don't care that Gasol has played terrible these last two years in the playoffs, because he's been apparently fine/good in the regular season? I just want you to clarify that. Because I've been trying to get you to answer the question or explain why Gasol has been terrible in the playoffs these last two years.
no you haven't. you are a terrible listener dude

that said gasol's decline is primarily a product of usage, or lack thereof. kobe's tyrannical attitude has turned him into a no. 3 option and a glorified jump shooter.
the lakers have prioritized bynum over gasol. making bynum the priority in the low-post has ostracized gasol. I KNOW THIS CUZ I WATCH THE GAMES, MANG. OMGOMGOMG.

wait, aren't you from texas? have you been WATCHING DA GAMES? i'm from socal. i see the lakers all the time. the games, man.

well in that case kobe was an abomination in last year's playoffs. peja stojakovic / jason terry / stevenson/ everyone on the mavs was absolutely killing him. he was getting lost on screens left and right. open 3-pointer after open 3-pointer. his awful defense was probably the main reason the lakers were not competitive.
do you have any response to that? try not to go off-topic.

1. Salty? No. Once again, misreading emotions on the internet. I was upset that I got accused of saying something I never said, let alone believed. I'm sure you don't enjoy having words put in your mouth.
pretty much all your posts have been condescending/derisive/charged with emotion.

But yeah, I guess everyone from Skip Bayless to guys like Magic and Tim Legler are just thinking the same as me and being dumb about it =/
I think I'll agree with people who went to Journalism school and guys who played professionally.
i'd go on but it makes me sick. learn how to converse like an adult or hit the ignore list.

2. What am I biased about exactly? Do I have to state for the 10th time I agree that Bynum is the MVP when he's engaged?
what are you arguing about again? do you just like the sound of your voice?

by the way it's funny that you talk about the "psychology of the game." what about the psychology of people?

after all that's the entire reason advanced stats in the nba have value. the human brain is limited. it tends to operate heuristically.

so when you talk about coach k claiming kobe's intensity made lebron a much better defender, it's pretty strong proof you're lacking in the psychology department. hi, my name is appeal to authority.
 

Masmasher@

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lol masmasher every one of your posts is filled with nonsense.

pat riley isn't coaching/winning games because he has already done so for decades and is comfortable aging and relaxing at his current GM position. can't blame a guy for wanting that.

so many johns man. i'm a heat fan but when we lose I am the first to recognize that a loss is a loss. thankful to have learned something useful from smash haha
Please miss with that johns nonsense I played the game too lol . I call it as I see it Boston got busy on y'all last year and they doing what they should've done last year. They want it more and now and they making y'all look foolish
Spurs out early have a feeling kd gonna show up later

:phone:
 
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i dont think faried is bad on D. i see him as an ibaka type shot blocker. both players arent the best down low in the post.

holy **** dude dont get THAT mad. its sports arguing among men. this is how it goes. its never being mean to actually be mean.

ANYWAY the point about harden (and what i love about his play) is that a very small percentage of his used possessions come from the perimeter, and even smaller still is the number of those outside shots that are contested. its way way way more likely that he was just in a shooting slump. 40 free throws means he got by his defender and into the lane a LOT, and thats a far greater statement on either a)the quality of his defenders or b) how good he is than 5 missed shots a game for 3 out of 5 games in one out of 3 series. even if we give kobe credit for those misses, he was still a net negative because free throws from getting to the lane are basically guaranteed points.
 

theeboredone

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For the record, I do have a BA in Psychology and do plan on going to grad school after working for a few years. It's a big reason why I hold an interest in that part of Basketball. It's also why guys like LeBron and Bynum have been head cases to me at times.
wait, aren't you from texas? have you been WATCHING DA GAMES? i'm from socal. i see the lakers all the time. the games, man.
I've been streaming the games live for years. Probably watched around 70 last year, and this year about 50.

do you have any response to that? try not to go off-topic.
I think you're the one going off topic, because you still haven't answered my question(s) about Gasol's playoff decline these last two years. But sure, here's your answer.

As far as how they've used him, of course it's been a drastic change. However, Gasol has always been a solid free throw distance jump shooter. The guy shot 50% in the regular season with most of his shots being of that variety. It's just that when the playoffs start, he just starts missing for whatever reason. I don't know what it is. When Gasol ends up with an open jumper, it's because either Kobe or Bynum draw a double that leaves Gasol open after players rotate. He's gotta hit that shot. I know he can, because he's been able to in past years. He's lost his touch in that area.

People always talk about Pau needing to get aggressive, but an interesting note is that...he's taken more shots per game this year compared to any other year as a Laker. It's just one more FGA, but as the third option too? I would say that should be fine with him.

As far as the series of LA vs Mavs. You keep telling me to stay on topic, but the two questions of debate have been Pau's lack of playoff production and Bynum's value when he's on and off. The entire team as a whole stunk it up against the Mavs. MWP, Kobe, Odom, Gasol, Bynum, Fisher, etc. It's not even a point of playing the "blame game." in that cause because aside from the first three games, the fourth one was just terrible.


pretty much all your posts have been condescending/derisive/charged with emotion.
Interpretation once again. If I came off as condescending, it's because someone mistook my words and twisted them into their own.


i'd go on but it makes me sick. learn how to converse like an adult or hit the ignore list.
So I'm not allowed to take the word of professionals?

what are you arguing about again? do you just like the sound of your voice?
You say what I'm arguing about, when I've constantly been saying it over and over again.

1. Pau Gasol's production/effectiveness these past two years in the playoffs on both ends.

2. Bynum's impact on the team when he tries vs when he doesn't...and how people fail to account for when he doesn't try in their stats.




@Brown: I really don't appreciate people misreading my posts, twisting my words to support their own case let alone make me look bad. I try not to do that with others, and you shouldn't either. It's the number one way for information to become misconstrued.
 

ViperGold42

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So you don't care that Gasol has played terrible these last two years in the playoffs, because he's been apparently fine/good in the regular season? I just want you to clarify that. Because I've been trying to get you to answer the question or explain why Gasol has been terrible in the playoffs these last two years.

And I honestly don't think you should rely on that statement. Remember what LBJ ended up doing in the Finals last year? Who would have thunk?



Sorry, I suck at reading emotions on the internet.



Couple of things.

1. Salty? No. Once again, misreading emotions on the internet. I was upset that I got accused of saying something I never said, let alone believed. I'm sure you don't enjoy having words put in your mouth.

2. What am I biased about exactly? Do I have to state for the 10th time I agree that Bynum is the MVP when he's engaged? Maybe I care, because you still haven't answered my questions? You just ignore them and trash talk me.



It's a means of point of emphasis, so people don't miss it.
damn boy. good read.
 

shadrach kabango

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on a side note

THIS GAME IS AWESOME
SPURS IN 7 SPURS IN 7 SPURS IN 7

refs getting shook by the crowd dude

STOP PLAYING TIAGO SPLITTER

can the spurs ever get a friggin offensive rebound?

too bad brooks isn't playing derek fisher anymore

So I'm not allowed to take the word of professionals?
okay after this im committed to not talking to you. zebras dun change dey stripes

spurs are gonna lose man

why not go to a duncan-leonard-jackson-green-parker lineup?

if neal isn't shooting well he is a huge liability because he cannot guard anyone

leonard on durant, jackson on westbrook, green on harden.

then you can spread 'em out on offense and open up driving lines or get an open duncan J every time down

diaw isn't doing anything. he's not taking advantage of post-up opportunities v smaller players, he can't shoot so he can't space the floor, he isn't rebounding ****.

****
 
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so sad the refs are in max protect formation. durant can do no wrong tonight.
 
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haha ill be fair theyre calling some silly 3point fouls on the thunder too
 

theeboredone

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okay after this im committed to not talking to you. zebras dun change dey stripes
Not explaining your reasoning yet again. You still haven't answered my core questions. Now stating this for the 15th time at this point. If you just don't wanna answer them, say it. If you wanna be lazy, say it. I honestly do understand. But stop bringing up other points unless you're gonna answer my two main questions.

And because I forgot to address this. In regards to the shot chart/who was defending Harden.

so wtf are you talking about?

do you have a shot chart?
Yes, I was looking at the ESPN shot charts from Games 1-5. Where Harden took his shots, where he made them, and missed them.

sick backtracking.
I don't consider that backtracking. I would rather not say "Kobe was defending him on all these possessions", because it's not true. I don't have that data.



tbh i don't understand why, even if this is true, i'm supposed to care about this. why does this matter?
You said Kobe had 0 defensive value. I was just trying to dispel that.


did you watch the games mister eye test? the nuggets beat them down the court. that's proof they aren't committed to winning? see, that's how biased you are. kobe ****s the bed v the mavs and i don't say he's not committed to winning. he just sucked defensively. you're applying personality traits where they don't belong. you're just making **** up quite honestly.
Why is it that when LA gets beat in transition, it's usually their bigs that are not back? You expect Kobe, Sessions/Blake, and Barnes to play 3 on 5? If McGee/Fareid get the rebound, run/sprint past the LA bigs and get dunks or layups, that's on them isn't it? I mean, it's been the criticism of the Lakers for a long time. Their transition defense, and it starts with their bigs not getting back.
 
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you cant accuse people of blindly using stats (when we know he doesn't), and then come back with a response that uses the wrong stat to draw a false conclusion without taking the statistic in context of the game.
DON'T YOU DARE. EVER. EVER. EVER. Accuse me of something like that. I NEVER EVER said that he was using WRONG statistics to draw a FALSE CONCLUSION. All I did was present my own numbers + eye test, that clearly contradicted his.
@Brown: I really don't appreciate people misreading my posts, twisting my words to support their own case let alone make me look bad. I try not to do that with others, and you shouldn't either. It's the number one way for information to become misconstrued.
i would like to clear this up. i didnt say you accused him of anything other than blindly using stats. which you did, or at least certainly implied with "oh wow keep looking at numbers."

i did say you were drawing the wrong conclusions from a stat that doesnt take into consideration harden's play style, which is the context in this situation.

granted, it was a pretty condescending way to say it my bad

but it would appear you have misread my post and twisted my words, good sir, making me look like an epic douche. i demand satisfaction.
 

theeboredone

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i would like to clear this up. i didnt say you accused him of anything other than blindly using stats. which you did, or at least certainly implied with "oh wow keep looking at numbers."
You're right. I misread it. I thought the following post of yours was directed at me declaring he used the "wrong stat" to draw "false conclusions."

you cant accuse people of blindly using stats (when we know he doesn't), and then come back with a response that uses the wrong stat to draw a false conclusion without taking the statistic in context of the game.
Me saying "Oh wow, keep looking at numbers." Does come off pretty bad. Read the next sentence though..."Did you forget how Javale McGee was dancing around Bynum?"

Why did I say this? Because he said that Bynum's rebounding dropped, his FG% dropped, but his blocks and FT% went up. So you keep looking at those numbers, while they fail to address McGee's breakout performance. I did nothing wrong there. And now addressing it for the 20th time, I state in that post Bynum is the MVP of the team when he tries, but he stinks up the joint when he doesn't. People only want to show his stats when he performs well/win.

i did say you were drawing the wrong conclusions from a stat that doesnt take into consideration harden's play style, which is the context in this situation.
You already know my opinion on Harden getting free throws, and I know that can also indirectly make him look better than he is. I remember you talking about the intangibles about giving teammates time to rest, strategize, etc. However, that doesn't address my points about his individual performance and stats. I'm not going to bother digging it up at this point.


but it would appear you have misread my post and twisted my words, good sir, making me look like an epic douche. i demand satisfaction.
My bad. I apologize.
 

theeboredone

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I'm rooting for KD and crew to win it all. I just realized something....the story line might be Perkins vs his old team.

Don't want to see Boston raise that banner no matter what. Heat either.
 
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god i want to see Lebron vs Durant SO BAD

MAGIC vs BIRD pt 2 NAO

yknow at first vipergold was really annoying, but im really starting to love the unadulterated enthusiasm.

youre still crazy for calling aaron rodgers a douche though. he's like the least douchey superstar ever. brett favre is a douche. and im a die hard packer fan.

@bored the stats i was talking about was more about harden's 35% not bynum and pau's stats that was my bad
 

Masmasher@

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Good job to the thunder very happy for them.
Now it's up to Boston to take out the heat and deliver justice.
I want Boston vs thunder really bad
Two teams that have peaked now to bring the proper competitive intensity.

And the matchups would be fun to see
Heat vs thunder is a overrated matchup. I want to see a team that plays desperate and wants it

:phone:
 
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nah id rather see boston and san antonio than bos vs okc. great coaching matchup between two teams that win with good shooting and teamwork and what not. plus we finally get to see KG vs TD. the two best PF's ever finally in the finals against each other. i dont care that theyre old.

i wanted to see vets vs. vets

or athleticism vs athleticism

plus ive already touched on how this league needs a new set of superstar rivals.
 

Masmasher@

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nah id rather see boston and san antonio than bos vs okc. great coaching matchup between two teams that win with good shooting and teamwork and what not. plus we finally get to see KG vs TD. the two best PF's ever finally in the finals against each other. i dont care that theyre old.

i wanted to see vets vs. vets

or athleticism vs athleticism

plus ive already touched on how this league needs a new set of superstar rivals.
i said a few pages back i wanted to see boston vs the spurs cause i thought they had a really good matchup this is before the thunder changed that. same reasons you had

i just think boston has outplayed miami more and other then the obvious design of lebron vs durant its really not that great of a pair up.

boston is hustling for the ball more those plays were really inspirational last game.
see westbrook vs rondo and perkins vs his old buddies including a kg thats playing like he's young again. ray against durant.

its more interesting then everyone thinks.
i see a boston team that is making one last push they just have so much heart
i dont see the same grit in miami.
they could prove me wrong but i doubt it.
i just love how boston has come together even more so then the spurs and has shown true toughness
they are just finding ways to get it done. the intensity on that court will be amazing if the thunder face boston.
 

theeboredone

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Boston vs OKC will be a true changing of the old guard match up. Every year, OKC has gotten better. If they win, then the change has been completed. If they lose, the old guard still prevails. Miami had that chance last year, but Dallas prevailed.

If it's OKC vs Miami...well the guard has changed.
 
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i dont wanna see kg vs lebron for the actual game play

i wanna see it for the popularity of the league and potential to change the development of future ballers
 

theeboredone

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Well I don't want to see the Heat win cause aside from Haslem, Cole, Miller, Bosh, and wait for it...LeBron. At this point, my hatred for Wade and Chalmers are at an all time high. Boston is Boston, don't want to see them win, much as I love KG and Rondo.

So OKC it is. Besides, I'm a Western Conf guy anyways. To be honest, not a prisoner of the moment, btu I think they match up well vs Boston. KG has been a beast, but Perkins/Ibaka will neutralize him.
 
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i have a greater hatred for the lechoke rhetoric than anything else left in the playoffs. i want it to go away so we can appreciate lebron for the top 5 all time talent he is.

DID NO ONE SEE THE LINK TO THE KEVIN DURANT MOVIE I POSTED?

really guys? no thoughts??
 

Malice Chains

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I REALLY wanted to go to a local bar again to watch the game so I could record the faces of the fans when the spurs lost, but maybe it was better for my life to stay home.
 

Malice Chains

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So literally everywhere I look regarding the game people are crying about the refs. Im not even mad, I HATE THE SPURS
 

theeboredone

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That reminds me. I'm sorry, but it seems like either flopping up 300% or refs are just more susceptible to it. When Ginobili got it to Leonard, Ginobili set an illegal screen. Right call, but does Harden REALLY need to fall down? I mean, James Harden running into Ginobili. If anything, Ginobili would fall down.

I swear after this season. Fine and suspend people who do this ****.

Oh btw, Spurs goat is Gary Neal. Dude is probably their best perimeter shooter and he disappeared these last two games. Really, REALLY hurt them.
 

Masmasher@

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that popularity is exactly why i dont want to see miami and thunder though i have no idea what you mean for developing new players/future ballers

the heat is the big 3 and a bunch of scrubs (morris cole maybe not later when he learns to finish at the rim better)

i want to see passion (boston) not a team that has toughness issues and questionable offense structure
 

Malice Chains

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Im hoping to see thunder vs celtics cause thunder vs heat will be just like thunder vs spurs 2.0

I want to watch a game where I can not care who wins also
 

CableCho57

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Man it sucks going to work and missing all these posts. The arguments died and its too late to bring it up again lol

shad werent you the same person who so strongly believed Magic would beat the Lakers in 2009? That laker hate man. Unless you were really serious because Orlando had no chance that season lol
Forget that falco vs. fox MM, lets play ball 1v1 MM =P

But really, brownsheep, achoomatchu, and adam, if we're ever at the same socal tourney we should play ball or something (assuming you guys play). How sick would that be
 
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haha im pretty down. i havent played in serious mode for a while but i'd probably force myself into it and end up having a **** ton of fun. im pretty bad though.

cable you are you in IV? im only like 25-30 mins away from adam. oh dude adam we should hang out for the finals. achoo where you at?

that popularity is exactly why i dont want to see miami and thunder though i have no idea what you mean for developing new players/future ballers
lemme go back and find my post about "greatness"...here it is, first with a short response to adam about the wins produce metric. before there was a post i think people were debating about the greatness of this new generation of players, namely lebron vs kobe and jordan. new edits/annotations are in brackets.


@kabango thanks ill look through that later. iirc they do have responses to the rebounding criticism, but ive been looking for someone to dispute its validity. ive also been meaning to read stumbling on wins to get a more in depth look at how the metric is built for my own sort of peace of mind regarding potential flaws. what per minute stats do you look at, if any?

i have to say people make a huge mistake when looking at it. it tells us how a team is winning, not why.

but thats no fun so

my take on WP is that its a fantastic measure for grading role players, like kawhi leonard. his job is to catch/shoot and rebound. its a pretty isolated role that i think lends itself well to statistical summary.

for the high usage stars, i like to look at it in context of their role on the team and how much they have to shoot. ill use tony parker for example. wins produced says tony parker was an above average player this year, and an average player this postseason. i along with the rest of the world disagree. it is incredibly difficult to maintain the "average player" efficiency while running around screens and throwing up circus floaters.

the scale for high usage little guys that dont rebound needs to be adjusted to account for this. so i look at parkers .132 wins produced per 48 minutes and say thats probably about as valuable as a role player with a little above a .200 WP48. derrick rose's .187 is probably something like a role player with a .250, while i would leave the bar setters (cp3, lebron, love who are in the low to mid .300s) alone.

basically i think theres far less disparity in skill between high usage stars than a) the disparity in quality of role players around the league and b) wp48 would imply. i mentally adjust for this.

its not meant to say chris paul is 3x better than tony parker, its saying the chris paul is more concretely tied to the clippers creating leads than tony parker is to the spurs' point differential, which i would agree with given how they play (chris paul gogogo vs. 3 point shooting [from the role players]).

_______

im about to blaspheme but heres my opinion on the lebron vs kobe vs jordan stuff. im gonna collapse it, and throw durant into the mix with a TL;DR at the end.

i think MJ is the greatest because he was new type of player. he was efficient. he could score whenever he wanted. he was a superior athlete, yet so fundamentally sound. all of that is great, but there were others before him about which you could say the same thing. what stood out the most is how he changed the way the game is played.

Kobe is not in his class of greatness imo. all time great, definitely, but not MJ level because we've seen it before. i see him as a byproduct of a generation growing up watching MJ and wanting to BE mike. unfortunately, he ended up like mike version 0.83 [because he's just not as good]

we've never seen lebron before. we've seen someone similar, but magic wasnt the defender or the scorer, or the rebounder lebron is. we have never seen someone that rebounds and defends as big as a 6'10 power forward, but moves and distributes with the skill of a 6'3" point guard with the scoring abilities of, well, the best small forward we've ever seen. [whoever that may be; lebron is certainly in that class.]

as far as rings go...kobe and mj were blessed to be drafted into 2 of the biggest markets with 2 of the best GMs in the NBA ever. people forget MJ came up short every year until krause showed up with horace and pippen. add the best rebounder ever, and yeah, youre bound to win a few. kobe had shaq, won, lost shaq, failed, got bynum and gasol, won again. both of these players have had MUCH better teams surrounding him in championship years than lebron has ever had in CLEVELAND. they had the benefit of Phil Jackson, as opposed to Mike Brown and Eric Spoelstra. kobe spends one year with brown, and people are already calling for his head. the fact is LeBron carries like no other (big men aside, though being able to compare a wing's dominance to a big man's speaks volumes in itself) and to say otherwise is just false. unless im forgetting someone. i think chris paul is pretty special too, but thats another conversation.

the next generation of ballers is growing up watching and learning from todays greats like kobe wade lebron and durant. i think we're going to see players that want to do it all not like 'MJ could do it all', but like Lebron who literally does everything. my bets (and hopes) are on this guy and durant to bring back the kind of unselfish team ball we saw in the 80s. and when the game shifts back towards unselfish play, i think we'll be able to point to lebron and say that was the guy, with Durant right there next to him. and thats as great as it gets.

TL;DR lebron/durant are the new magic/bird, only theyre probably better than both of their counterparts. they are both comparable to jordan statistically at this point in jordans career, but their greatness should measured not by stats, rings, or clutch play, but by the impact they have on coming generations.

its just too soon to compare, but i dont think itll be as absurd as some think when its all said and done.

 

theeboredone

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Well here's my take. Miami started this trend of star players conspiring together, which honestly takes away the true meaning of Free Agency from the team's perspective. The reason being is that the stars have already chosen where they want to go, and they are gonna go try to have fun and win a championship that way. What that does generally is teams have this hopeless hope where they either tank the season or have a cap situation where all their contracts come off the books. That generally also means your team is gonna suck.

We have the big 3 in Miami. It was no secret Carmelo wanted to go to NY and play with Amare. They also assumed CP3 would follow them there.

The Boston big 3 is the only "legitimate" one, because the players were already at the twilight of their careers. It was their best shot to win it all as opposed to a lot of these players who are still in their primes.

OKC's big 3 is the other legitimate one. Mainly because it has been manufactured through the draft and not FA or trades. I mean, their only true trade acquisition has been Perkins.

So I want OKC to win, because I want this idea in star players minds to die down...where they think they have to go play with other star players. Dallas sent that message last year by team ball. OKC will send it by saying stay with your team and loyalty. Star players also have to understand that, they have to take a lot less money. Even compared to what the Heat did. Otherwise, you can't build a legitimate team with today's CBA.

Also, Nick Collison is the guy I'll be most happy for assuming the Thunder win. I like him a lot, and he's the kind of role player I can cheer for.


But really, brownsheep, achoomatchu, and adam, if we're ever at the same socal tourney we should play ball or something (assuming you guys play). How sick would that be
Why don't yall just decide to hit up a gym? No need for smash tourny. Also, I should hook you guys up with my friend from Long Beach. We were pretty tight growing up, but then he moved to Cali. He was actually nominated to be on the McDonalds HS All-Star team the same year Tyreke Evans was on it. He can school you guys, and then you can all be sad and stuff.
 
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